In so far over my head...

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  • Edonidd
    Junior Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 7

    In so far over my head...

    My current HT set-up is made up of 4 Klipsch Synergy F3's and a Sub-12, all powered by a Pannasonic SA-XR55. I wasn't very happy with what I had bass wise, so I started looking more into Subs. As I got into it, I realized DIY was definately the route to go for me. I saw that most people recommended sealed subs for music listening and ported for HT, so when I told people it was for a dedicated HT the consensus was ported. That's when I staretd thinking about it... For me of the three major aspects of sound in movies (dialogue, music, and sound effects) the two most important to me were music and dialogue. WotW without bass would be a crappy movie... but with bass it was a crappy movie and I personally thought the Enya songs were more important to LotR than the "Ring Drop" likewise the new Star Wars's without bass would have been a let down, but without the "Star Wars Theme", the "Force Theme", and especially the "Imperial March" it wouldn't have even been Star Wars. I over-ruled everyone's suggestions and have decided I a unwilling to sacrifice any sound quality for some SPL, I can get SPL back with more drivers, but am unable to get back any lost sound quality.

    I think I have decided to go with 2 Rymik Servo 15's in 2 enclosures, but I may save some money initially and eek out even a little more SQ with dual Servo 12's either in a push push or a push pull, and eventually get a second box. I am at least waiting for the 15's to come out, but may also wait for some of the higher quality drivers like those LMT's to get finished.

    That got me thinking even more though. If I am going to spend that much on just the bottom couple of octaves and insist on going with sealed, why am I so willing to go with ported mains that handle all of the rest of my sound as well as running as a phantom center. So I started looking at some drivers to make myself a matching LCR set. After auditioning many speakers I know that I like ribbons and planars and what not more than domes or the horns that I have. So without knowing too much I tentatively picked out drivers that I thought would work for me, trying to get a full FR and kind of keep the sensitivities close, but didn't know what else I was supposed to do. Then I heard about this board and started looking around at mission accomplished but didn't find anything that matched or was even really all that close to what I wanted.

    The Drivers I tentatively picked out;

    as a super tweater crossed over at somewhere around 7k

    as a mid range crossed over at around 2.5k

    and hopefully 2 of these could dig down to mid 60's hz range and still be able to make it to 2.5k to cross to the neo8.

    That was when I realized that I was way over my head and had no idea how to design or even implement a crossover, and I really didn't even know if my choices would do what I wanted. Can someone point me to some place where I can do further research, as I kind of had my heart set on planars but can't really afford the full range BG's or anything else I could find plans for. Wanted to stay at around the $500 range per speaker but with right around 300 already with just the drivers I don't know how much the rest will cost.

    My only real requirements are the great sound I have heard from planars and ribbons in the past, hopefully not too much over $500 per, and the tighter sound of sealed plus hopefully something that can get down below 80 hz so that I can cross my receiver over at 80 and not be able to audibally locate my sub. Hopefully somebody can either help me out or point me in the right direction to where I will be able to help myself.
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10933

    #2
    An interesting $550 offer
    $1200/pr full range planars

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Edonidd
      Junior Member
      • Aug 2006
      • 7

      #3
      Yeah, I'm aware of Maggies and even auditioned a pair of 1.6's wheich is one of the major reasons why I am so interested in them. However as important as music is to me in the movies, it IS still a HT set-up. From everything I have heard Maggies do a great job with music but struggle at higher volumes especially with dynamics of HT usage. If I am completely off base on that assumption (which happens more often than not) I may just go with the maggies, or I believe it was you who was doing a maggie project that I saw when looking around...

      Comment

      • Amphiprion
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2006
        • 886

        #4
        I'm a big fan of Maggies, especially for music, but have not had the chance to listen to them extensively in a HT setup. A local aquantaince of mine has a full Magnepan HT (BIG room) and on the few occasions I've been in it I thought it was fine (though he needed acoustic treatments at the time, nothing on the walls but paint and plaster). Is it just that they have a limited low end, or that the full-range power handling isn't there?

        Comment

        • ThomasW
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 10933

          #5
          I'm not sure why you'd consider the drivers you listed or the larger B&G RD Series given their significantly smaller radiating area as compared to the MMG, MG12, or 1.6?

          IB subwoofer FAQ page


          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

          Comment

          • Edonidd
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2006
            • 7

            #6
            Originally posted by Amphiprion
            I'm a big fan of Maggies, especially for music, but have not had the chance to listen to them extensively in a HT setup. A local aquantaince of mine has a full Magnepan HT (BIG room) and on the few occasions I've been in it I thought it was fine (though he needed acoustic treatments at the time, nothing on the walls but paint and plaster). Is it just that they have a limited low end, or that the full-range power handling isn't there?



            I don't expect to have any problem with the maggies or any other main speakers having a limited low end. Although I haven't ever heard them I hear the rythmik servos should mate up well with any high quality speakers and have anything but a limited low end. And although I tested them out the 1.6's that I heard were slightly out of my price range and were in a small listening room. I have a pretty huge HT room (15 x 45 with 7 foot ceilings and an opening to the other half of the basement and the stairs upstairs) plus having tried out 4 different receivers the panny was by far my favorite, however it doesn't have pre-outs and from what I have heard those maggies really like a lot of power, while still not getting anywhere close to reference levels.

            Comment

            • Edonidd
              Junior Member
              • Aug 2006
              • 7

              #7
              Originally posted by ThomasW
              I'm not sure why you'd consider the the drivers you listed or the larger B&G RD Series given their significantly smaller radiating area as compared to the MMG, MG12, or 1.6?

              Mostly because they are significantly cheaper, but also because they are much more efficient. I/we obviously wish the MMG's were everything anyone could ask for, but everything is going to have it's own drawbacks and tradeoffs. Unlike with a sub, you can't just add more main speakers to increase spl, plus the size of them and the requirement to place them away from any boundries. From my understanding of the tradeoffs I would be making, I am ok with giving up a larger soundstage in exchange for more spl. As long as that sound stage is still big enough to include my seat in the middle of the couch, hopefully my wife's right next to me, and hopefully not too bad for the recliner and other chairs that I will force my daughters to settle with, I wouldn't complain if the vertical dispersion was wide enough that I could lay down while watchikng the movie either. What I don't need is for my whole room to be one huge sweet spot so I can stand up and jog circles around the room while watching the movie and still be in the sweet spot.

              The main thing I am worried about with these drivers would be that they perform just like a regular dome/cone, and just cost more for the dummies like me who think they can get by with paying a $30-40 premium and still get that ESL sound.

              Comment

              • ThomasW
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 10933

                #8
                Here's your compromise......

                You could build the speakers you've listed and drive them with the Panny. But they won't even come close to so called reference levels in your room, there's simply not enough radiating area available from those drivers.

                If you want to keep that receiver, and also want high outout levels, then you're married to high efficiency speakers.

                If you want planars then you need to get them big enough to do the job, and a proper amp to drive them....

                Edit because we posted at the same time.

                You need to understand that a small high efficiency driver, is just that, a small driver that doesn't take much power to drive. It doesn't mean that it's going to fill a room with sound simply because it has high effiency. Filling a room with sound requires moving lots of air, and that takes a large radiating area.

                So no free lunch, buy lots of high efficiency drivers if you want to use the Panny. Or get planars and an amp with more 'umph'

                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                Comment

                • Edonidd
                  Junior Member
                  • Aug 2006
                  • 7

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ThomasW
                  Here's your compromise......

                  You could build the speakers you've listed and drive them with the Panny. But they won't even come close to so called reference levels in your room, there's simply not enough radiating area available from those drivers.

                  If you want to keep that receiver, and also want high outout levels, then you're married to high efficiency speakers.

                  If you want planars then you need to get them big enough to do the job, and a proper amp to drive them....

                  The high efficiency was one of the major things I was looking at when choosing drivers. The AC tweeter was listed at 96, the BG was at 93, and the woofers were each at 90, using two should put me at 93 for that too right? I was under the impression that that would bring total speaker effeciency up to 93 before xovers. With a chance to keep it at/around that level or at least close as a finished product.

                  Would a using a decent receiver with something like the Carver ZR1600 digital amp still give me that "digital sound" that I like so much from the panny? I guess I could try one of the JVC digital receivers or a Sony ES I believe they all have pre-outs.

                  Comment

                  • Edonidd
                    Junior Member
                    • Aug 2006
                    • 7

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ThomasW
                    Edit because we posted at the same time.

                    You need to understand that a small high efficiency driver, is just that, a small driver that doesn't take much power to drive. It doesn't mean that it's going to fill a room with sound simply because it has high effiency. Filling a room with sound requires moving lots of air, and that takes a large radiating area.

                    So no free lunch, buy lots of high efficiency drivers if you want to use the Panny. Or get planars and an amp with more 'umph'

                    Like I said "way over my head"

                    Comment

                    • Edonidd
                      Junior Member
                      • Aug 2006
                      • 7

                      #11
                      OK, how well would it work if I added another BG neo8 for a MTMWW, and used this, or at least something similar;

                      as an active crossover with three seperate optimally sized amps. It should allow me to play around a little bit with different crossover points and figure out what sounds good to me, without having to really know what I am doing yet, if/when I found something that works I could go back and build a specific crossover to do that, or just continue using the active x-over.

                      Doing this would push me out of my planned budget so I would probably have to just go with 2 mains for now, but would it sound decent? I really want something with that ribbon sound, didn't really want to go with maggies, but also don't want to spend significantly more for significantly worse sound than something like the RS 3-ways or other misssion accomplished designs.

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10933

                        #12
                        The availability of that Behringer has been a moving target for many months. And if you don't understand basic loudspeaker design, you'll never get it running.

                        The problem with the Neo 8's is that to have enough output from them, you'd spend the same amount as the cost of the larger B&G RD planars.

                        Given your lack of knowledge about even the basics, you'll end up spending more money than the cost of the projects detailed in the Missions Accomplished section, and have worse sounding performance.

                        So my advise is keep the speakers you have and save up until there's sufficient budget for something worth building.

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

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