Must Have DVD-A's/SACD's

[Chris D]

Just curious. I noticed that the new Judas Priest album is available in Dual Disc. I've never been a Judas Priest fan, but this just made me wonder what they were referring to, if it was the DVD-A version of a hybrid SACD. I saw the album in BB today--I think it's just DVD on the back side, not DVD-A. They specifically state on the case that the CD may not play in some CD players since it doesn't conform to CD standards. Odd.

[mitch57]

There are alot of problems with Dual Disk Standard. No Dual Disk complies with the CD standard. I found that my Integra player would not play the CD side. It can't seem to read it or recognize the format. Also, numerous manufaturer's sites have statements about the possibility that their players will not play Dual Disks. They also mention the fact that they will not warranty their players against defects caused by Dual Disks.

Denon and Integra/Onkyo as well as many others have these statements on their websites'.

The DVD side of the Judas Priest album is stereo only.

IMO I think the Dual Disk format sucks! Unless things improve with this format, I won't be buying them anymore.

[Nick M]

For some titles there are so many formats its almost confusing.

Looking around at purchasing Hell Freezes Over, I've found the following...

1. Red Book (Which I own)
2. DVD-V (4:3 Frame) 5.1 DD Audio
3. DVD-V (4:3 Frame) 5.1 DTS Audio
4. 5.1 DTS (Audio Only)

Also available is Hotel California in DVD-A format...
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :rant:

I've got to be very careful in making my selection...
I guess I need the DTS DVD-V for the Hell Freezes Over performance, and the DVD-A for the high-rez Eagles experience. ;lx :roll:

[Chris D]

Yeah, I question the new dual-disc thing too, ESPECIALLY with me hearing stuff like "not conforming to CD standards". Seems they're dooming the format before they even release it.

Now hybrid SACD's... I've had some good luck there.

[Foxman]

For some titles there are so many formats its almost confusing.

Looking around at purchasing Hell Freezes Over, I've found the following...

1. Red Book (Which I own)
2. DVD-V (4:3 Frame) 5.1 DD Audio
3. DVD-V (4:3 Frame) 5.1 DTS Audio
4. 5.1 DTS (Audio Only)

Also available is Hotel California in DVD-A format...
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :rant:

I've got to be very careful in making my selection...
I guess I need the DTS DVD-V for the Hell Freezes Over performance, and the DVD-A for the high-rez Eagles experience. ;lx :roll:

Hell freezes over is the one that made me realize I needed to be more careful about what I bought. That disk might be the most confusing of all. When all was said and done I ended up with the 5.1 DTS only and am still miffed about it. The sound is great, but why would I have purchased a DTS only when I could have had the same audio quality with the video to match at the same money? Man that still sucks :M

Guess I need to get over it.

[junior77blue]

So, there's no widescreen version of hell freeze's over?

[Nick M]

My first DVD-A purchases!

Made my first purchases tonight on Amazon.

Eagles - Hotel California, DVD-A
Sting - Brand New Day, DVD-A

Can't wait to get 'em!

[Nick M]

Well I must say that I'm sold on DVD-A. Stings's "Brand New Day" is spectacular. While many of his songs use electronic effects, they are mixed well. Panning effects are incredible. I really like how backup chorus drifts in from the surrounds. It feels like you're sitting in the front row rather than the nosebleed section. The mixes for the eagles seem like you're sitting in the hollow of a gentle parabolic shaped stage with a guitar/vocal between each surround/main, and one in front. The drums carry across the front soundstage and you can see Don Henley going from the left side of his set to the right.

I also enjoy how you can hear a hint of the front soundstage in the surrounds. One of my biggest complaints about most DD/DTS mixes is that many voices and effects are isolated in individual channels. This type of mixing degrades the seamless-ness of the soundstage for me. While an effect off to the front left should obviously be emphasized there, you should also hear a bit/hint of it in the surround left and center. Some mixes do this but most don't. Both of these DVD-A titles do this well. My only complaints are in Hotel California where in a few spots you could tell where the song was cut together. I'm also glad I did not mount my surrounds up on the wall too! This would have destroyed the soundstage and imaging. I must admit that I love the ambiance of live recordings. You can really tell with these DVD-A titles that you are in a deadened room. I like the openness of stage performances, it seems more earthy and less plastic. I'm eager to try some of the Telarc classical discs recorded in large halls.

Two thumbs up though. Now that I've experienced this, I don't think I will be listening to redbooks any time soon. :T :T

[Cracking Oboe]

Hi Nicholas,

I have to agree with you about "Brand New day". Great DVD-A... it has enough use of the surrounds without making you look over your shoulder. (I find a snare drum hitting me in the side of the head over my right shoulder a bit distracting).
Don't limit yourself to just Telarc classical recordings (although the cannon explosions in Telarcs DVD-A release of 1812 Overture will wow freinds and family alike 8O ). IMHO The Deutsch Gramaphonen recordings of all nine Beethoven Symphonies with Abaddo conducting the Berlin Philharmonic are exceptional :5: . It is a true "sitting in the concert hall" experience. I got home from a local classical concert and put on Symphony #3. It blew me away with how realistic the mix was. I can't say the same for R.E.M. I got home from that concert and threw on R.E.M.'s "best of" DVD-A. It wasn't even close to what I had heard live. (I'm thankful for that, the halls acoustics were lousy)

Cheers,

Cracking!

[mitch57]

Now you can understand why my collection of DVD-A and SACD multi-channel disks have grown to over 130. And it gets larger every week!

[Nick M]

I promised myself I wouldn't, but I just ordered 3 SACDs from Amazon.

1. Dark Side of the Moon: Pink Floyd
2. Telarc SACD Sampler Vol. 1
3. Telarc Classical SACD Sampler Vol. 2

I figured the Telarc samplers would give me a good taste of what they do with SACD.

[Foxman]

I promised myself I wouldn't, but I just ordered 3 SACDs from Amazon.

1. Dark Side of the Moon: Pink Floyd
2. Telarc SACD Sampler Vol. 1
3. Telarc Classical SACD Sampler Vol. 2

I figured the Telarc samplers would give me a good taste of what they do with SACD.

Nicholas I have the Samplers 1 & 3, they are both jazz and are excellent especially for someone like myslef who isnt sure what I like and don't like. Add in Telarcs high quality multichannel sound and it is a perfect combination of value and quality. I'll be curious how the sampler 2 is.

[BobD207s]

i'd recommend trying Pat Metheny Group's Imaginary Day in DVD Audio - great album and excellent use of all channels

[mitch57]

I'll second that notion Bob.

[Nick M]

Just received two of my new SACDs (Pink Floyd DSOTM, and Telarc Sampler 2). There was a 2 month back order on Telarc Sampler 1 so I cancled the order. Just spent the last two hours listening. I must say this... Telarc is absolutely fantastic at mixing multichannel audio! This is what I've been looking for in terms of soundstage, spaciousness, depth, and clarity. When you listen at 75dB-85dB, you can really hear the resonance of the environments, and everything sounds much more together rather than assembled. The bells in the end theme of Sleepy Hollow are crisp and sound like they are 30ft off to the left hand side, which would be outside of my apartment. The harp in track 5 was breathtaking. The gentle strum of the bass chords cleanly mingling with the razor-sharp plucks of the higher notes gave me the goose-bumps. And I don't even have my sub yet!

Floyd, DSOTM had some positives and negatives for me. The intro to "Time" was definetly in the top 5 for best 5.1 mixes I've ever heard in music or movies. The grandfather clock imaged between the front left and surround left was so accurate I played it atleast 10 times over and over. Unfortunately after about 2 minutes the intro ended, the soundstage collapsed, and the mix became 2nd rate, almost like a glorified 2ch stereo mix. The registers/coin/receipts during the intro to "Money" were fun, but not even in the same class as the clocks in "Time". I did like the mix for Money though. "Us and Them" and "Brain Damage" were mixed great. Very psychodelic and involving. Reminds me of driving down a desert road at sunset. Overall very well done.

I plan to invest some serious cash into Telarc titles after I get my sub... a new display for my home theater can wait... :B

EDIT: Oh! And whats with the cheap regular 'ole CD case that DSOTM came in? I like the thick plastic juggernaut cases my other titles were protected in.

[Chris D]

Well, I should be listening to my DVD-A and SACD titles for the first time later this week. (wink wink) I'm one of those weirdos that started buying titles before I even have a player. Can't wait... I'll post my thoughts.

[aud19]

I'm sure you'll be impressed Chris Everyone I've demoed DVD-A for has been pretty blown away. My brother especially was quite skeptical until we played Fleetwood Mac Rumours and Neil Young Harvest back to back against the CD copies I own. He did one of these: :jawdrop: :drool:

[Nick M]

Especially with that setup of yours I've been following Chris. I'm sure you won't have any trouble with your ".1" channel with Dual Ultras... :T

[Nick M]

Anyone have detailed info on DVD-A vs SACD?

I want to get Diana Krall's "Love Scenes", and see its available on both DVD-A and SACD. Which is better?

[Nick M]

Amazon listed only 1 DVD-A version left so I went with that one. I also ordered the LAGQ - Guitar Heroes SACD. I want to here what all the fuss is about.

[mitch57]

Nicholas,

You won't be disappointed! It's quite impressive. The differences between SACD and DVD-A are suttle as far as sound quality goes IMHO. However, there are some noticeable differences in playability.

First off DVD-A appears to play a bit louder when set at the same volume level. The disadvantage to DVD-A versus SACD is the fact that DVD-A plays in the same manner as a DVD-Video disk. You have to select chapters kinda of like you do when you select scenes on a DVA-V. You also can't select tracks in the same manner that you do with CDs or SACDs. You cant just push "5" for example on your remote and have it skip to track 5.

The playing time in between tracks is also several seconds longer on DVD-A then it is on SACD or CD. The DVD-A also doesn't start playing immediately as it does with SACD or CD. The player's display reads the disk and then displays "Top Menu" for a very long time (sometimes 30 seconds or more) before it will start to play the first track. You can force it to play sooner by pressing the play button 2 or 3 times.

It also won't immediately change to the next disk in a DVD changer. It goes back to the "Top Menu" thing for a long time before switching to the next disk. This probably isn't an issue for most people who don't have a universal changer like I do.

An interesting note about DVD-A's losless compression technology is that it's called MLP which stands for "Meridian Losless Packing". It was developed by Meridian Audio which makes high end audio equipment including speakers. You can read about it here:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/p_mlp_in.htm

Musicality wise they both are awsome! I have about 150 albums now in my collection. I just can't seem to stop buying them! They sound simply amazing!

When I buy online I usually buy from www.towerrecords.com. They have a great selection with good prices.

Let me know what you think of LAGQ.

[Nick M]

I have a few DVD-A and SACD titles already. My question was more to the audio quality differences between the two formats with the same title.

I read about MLP when researching a DVD-A/SACD player, but does anyone have any good reading on SACD's "Pure DSD" technology? It has something to do with a higher sampling rate during recording I think.

[mitch57]

Go here for an explanation:

http://interprod5.imgusa.com/son-637/sacd_story.asp

[Nick M]

LAGQ - Guitar Heroes... Wow.
Can you say "perfect surround mix"? With a guitar in each speaker (FL, FR, SL, SR) and the occassional odd instrument in the center, its as though you are sitting right in the middle of the band. There is a very small mix in the adjacent speaker, and the smallest hint in the furthest speaker. The SACD format really does this type of recording with acoustic guitars justice. You can hear their hands moving up and down the frets, the sharp onset of a strong pluck, and the change in vibration characteristics as they let pressure off the string/fret. The guitar's body is really fleshed out. The timing of the quartet and how they interweave with one another is spectacular. "Aire para un dia" is incredible as is "Lament and Wake". William Kanengiser in the FR channel is ungodly nimble. An absolute must own for anyone with SACD capabilities.

Diana Krall - Love Scenes.
Very impressed with Diana herself along with the backup instruments, not so impressed with the mixing. I went into this expecting an intimate setting. Some songs had a real softness and warmth to the backup (which I'm not a big fan of but can understand in this circumstance). What really suprised me was the ambiance. It almost sounds like you are in a large hall rather than a cozy room. For "Love Songs" I found this out of place. Other than that I found the DVD-A to be quite relaxing, and her voice is simply incredible. Thick and controlled are the two best words I can think of to describe it. "Gentle Rain", "How deep is the Ocean", and "My Love Is" are my favorites so far.

[Nick M]

Thanks for that link mitch. Good info on DSD. I think I will be buying SACD over DVD-A when given the option.

[benny]

check out Mapleshade Audio's label. they are pure dsd, i believe.

[aud19]

Most universal players convert DSD anyways and for every article showing SACD being better there's one saying the same for DVD-A. In other words get what you want that's available on one or the other and if something's available on both formats read reviews to see which copy you'll likely prefer based on the reviewers comments. IMO the differences of same albums on the two formats are more likely attributed to different mastering/mixing etc than the formats themselves.

[junior77blue]

So, thumbs up on guitar heroes & diana krall?

[Nick M]

So, thumbs up on guitar heroes & diana krall?

Yup

While I dont really like the hall/echo in Love Scenes, you can actually here the saliva in her mouth when she parts her lips. Astounding!

LAGQ is simply incredible.

[Chris D]

Nicholas, while I don't have any Krall albums yet, nor DVD-A/SACD capability yet, I'll say this:

Isn't that cool when you get to the point in your A/V setup that you can hear individual breaths from performers, an audience member cough, etc? Now THAT's clarity.

[mitch57]

Nicholas,

Did I not tell you that LAGQ would blow you away? I own so many it's hard for me decide which one to recommend next.

I do agree with what Chris has to say about find what music you like on whichever format it's available on. If it's on both read the reviews.

If you like Rock check out Queen - The Game (DVD-A). "Another one Bites the Dust" will rock your world!!!

[Nick M]

Suppose I should go to bed. I have a job interview in 10hours. I've been listening to these 2 latest additions to my DVD-A/SACD collection (I have 6 Now! :B) for the past 8hrs... h:

This blows 2ch redbooks out of the water. Its like going from 2ch cable audio to 5.1 DTS surround. My sub is being delivered tomorrow too for me to give it a trial. While I planned on saving for a big display next, I think its going to wait while I pump some cash into these addicting audio formats!

Next I was going to get Metallica's "Black" album remix on DVD-A and Telarc's "Berlioz Requiem" on SACD. I think Telarc's "1812 Overture" will be in that order too... :demon:

... I can already hear my neighbors pounding on the door :B

[Chris D]

... I can already hear my neighbors pounding on the door :B

Now THAT'S audio quality, too!

[Nick M]

:laughat:
:rant: <- (My Neighbors soon to be...) h:

[Nick M]

Just ordered a couple more titles tonight on Amazon...

Queen: A Night at the Opera, DVD-A
Immersion, DVD-A

Tomorrow I'm going to order a few titles from Telarc on SACD. Amazon has big delays on them once you add them to your cart... :roll:

LAGQ: Latin
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
Berlioz Requiem
Dupre, Franck & Widor

The following review of Immersion at Amazon is what got me to pull the trigger. Its an older DVD-A, but sounds intriguing...

This amazing DVD-Audio release explores surround sound more extensively than any other DVD-Audio that I've heard (or know of). I've never experienced anything like it. All the content here is new, and was put together especially for surround sound, unlike most other DVD-Audio recordings which tend to be re-releases of older pop/rock stuff. There are 13 different, short pieces here. In the first piece Live/Work, the performer (Pamela Z) provides a verbal, circular tour of her studio (a good way to see how consistent your surround setup is). In Tank (by Bruce Odland), you hear a trumpet playing inside a water tank with a long echo, along with some percussion. This is one of the most realistic depictions of a three-dimensional space I've ever heard. White Turbulence 2000 (by Maggi Payne) slowly changes with some complex sound processing. Luong Hai Ky Mi Gia (Carl Stone) moves really fast, with fragments of somewhat recognizable sound zooming all around you. The Housatonic at Henry Street (by Phil Kline) is a moving, haunting piece that uses multiple boomboxes and street sounds to evoke a street corner in New York City. A piece by Ellen Fullman uses layers of recordings of an instrument she invented that has strings about 100 feet long. Propeller Island (Lukas Ligeti) has different kinds of colorful percussion instruments tapping out different rhythms. Steel is attractive and is performed on the Quadrachord, an instrument invented by the composer Paul Dresher. Sayonara Sirenade 20/21 (by Pauline Oliveros) uses older electronic music sounds in a surround sound setting. Twilight's Dance (by Paul Dolden) has driving rhythms that lead to a big, exciting ending. 2000 presents intense "noise" music that apparently is typical of the composer Merzbow. Sighs and Murmurs, A Sea Song (by Ingram Marshal) is a lanquid, calm piece. The recording ends with Eclipse Variations, a lovely work by Meredith Monk that has layers of sustained voices that float in and out, creating an other-worldly ambiance. Visually, each piece has several slides that change as the piece progresses. (This is actually more advanced than some of the other rock DVD-Audio releases I've encountered.) There is also a full booklet that gives thorough info about all these composers and their pieces.

I listened to Metallica's Black Album on CD the other day for the first time in years. It was definetly nostalgic, but I don't think I'm going to get the DVD-A version.

[mitch57]

Nicholas,

I have Queen - A Night at the Opera and it doesn't come close to Queen - The Game. It doesn't seem to be recorded nealry as well.

I see that you order alot of your music from Amazon. I order most of mine from www.towerrecords.com. They have a great selection and from what I've seen better prices with no tax.

You can do a search by DVD Audio or SACD on Tower's site and view all of them listed by artist, relevence, best sellers, etc.

That might give you some more options. There are a couple of other places I buy from but I can't remember the website as I am not at home.

[Nick M]

Placed an order with "Tower Records" and saved about $5 along with Fed-Ex 2-Day at no extra charge...
They were all in stock so the real test is whether or not I will actually get them all.

Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD
A Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas SACD (Neighbors oughtta love this in April... )
Berlioz Requiem SACD
LAGQ: Latin SACD
Dupre, Franck & Widor SACD

You have to be careful choosing between SACDs and redbooks. They both look the same except for label number and price.

[mitch57]

If you do a search by SACD it will only display SACD titles. There's also a SACD link to the left hand side of the site. If you click on it you get 529 results. If you type "SACD" in the "Search For" block at the top of the screen you get 1,176 results.

Likewise, if you type in "DVD Audio" in the Search For" block you get 379 results. Those are the search words I use when I'm searching for stuff.

If I know the specific title I'm looking for I just use that. It will give you all the results which include titles for red book CDs, DVD-As and SACDs. Sometimes I will click on the red book title for a specific album that is also available in SACD/DVD-A just to listen to a sampling of the album. Most of the SACDs and DVD-As don't have any music samples.

[Chris D]

Okay, I did it. Got my 3910 in, and have been listening to SACD and DVD-A while I type here. Here's what I've been testing out:

DVD-A:
Dr. Chesky's Amazing 5.1 Surround Show (weird but fun disc so far)
Blue Man Group Audio
Santana Supernatural
Bachman Turner Overdrive Live!
Silverline Surround Sampler
Aaron Neville Believe
Flaming Lips
Nickel Creek
Metallica Black

SACD:
Best of Journey
Aerosmith O Yeah!
1812 Overture
Norah Jones Come Away With Me
Best of John Denver
Aaron Copland Appalachian Spring
3 Doors Down Away From the Sun

I still have Tower of Power on backorder

I haven't spent enough time with any of these to really do critical listening, and my equipment and setup are still new and not fully installed, so I won't post reviews. But I'm impressed in general.

[hired goon]

G'day,

I got three Patrica Barber hybrid 2-channel SACDs last week. I spent a couple of days getting used to the CD layer via my Rotel RCD-1072 CD player. Then I played the SACD layer on my Pioneer DV-676A DVD/SACD/DVD-A player. There's a difference, but it's rather subtle. I suspect that this is because the DV-676A is a cheapie (about AUD$200), and is up against the better sound of the RCD-1072. I assume that with a decent SACD player, the difference would be more pronounced.

Still, I may order a few more SACDs soon, although I'm only interested in 2-channel SACD (until I get matching speakers all round).

--Geoff

[Don]

Just picked up a few of the RCA Living Stereo SACD's and they are impressive.

Don

[Chris D]

Of the albums I mentioned above, I think the Nickel Creek one is becoming one of my favorite. Great folk music with an Irish slant to it. Outstanding audio clarity. I bought this one blindly on recommendations here on the Guide.

I like it so much, that I just went to Best Buy last night and got their second album also on SACD.

[Nick M]

Just ordered a couple more titles tonight on Amazon...

Queen: A Night at the Opera, DVD-A
Immersion, DVD-A

Please, PLEASE, save your money and don't order either of these. Immersion has got to be the biggest waste of money I have ever encountered. My Denon 2900 even has some trouble playing tracks 3 & 4. Most of the tracks are simply loops of distortion and pink noise. The only reason why I know this isn't simply a bug is that they'll have a nice clean sound of the ocean in the background or clear sound effects. Its not artful use of distortion/noise either (like Moby or Blue Man Group). What trash!!! :rant:

Queen: A Night at the Opera isn't as bad, but its very poorly mixed. Another one of those 5ch mixes that seem to be just a 2ch mix with matrixed surrounds. Then they just throw random things in the surrounds. The drums come out all five channels (WTF?) quite often. Chorus/backup swaps between surround and front mains in the same song? Nothing involving or spacious about it and very gimicky.

Atleast I have 5 telarc titles being delivered tomorrow. I haven't heard a single terrible thing from that label... *sigh*

[Nick M]

Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD
A Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas SACD
Berlioz Requiem SACD
LAGQ: Latin SACD
Dupre, Franck & Widor SACD

I just received these today...
Again, I'm blown away with everything Telarc puts out!

While I can't enjoy most of these to their fullest without my soon to be delivered subwoofer, they are still spectacular even in 5.0.

Berlioz Requiem is so deep and involving I sat through the entire 78min performance. I was absolutely exhausted by the end of it there is so much to absorb at once. Almost fitting the story, I started around sunset and finished in the dark twilight hours. Incredible!

Dupre~Franck~Widor was completely enveloping. Excellent use of all 5 channels. I can't wait until I get my sub for this one. The shear size and output of the organ and cathedral is conveyed quite vividly even without a sub.

1812 Overture will be much more fun with the sub... :twisted: :demon:
A definite thumbs up on this performance though, as well as the 6 other Tchaikovsky works.

I'm just getting into the LAGQ: Latin and listened to Carol of the Bells on the Mormon Tabernacle disc. These also seem very promising.

[Pieter]

Nick,

Since you're on a Telarc SACD spending spree why don't you give the following a try: Jacques Loussier Trio - The Best of Play Bach (SACD-63590)

Pieter