A comment on our hobby...

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Andrew Pratt
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 16478

    #1

    A comment on our hobby...

    I sometimes wonder if we aren't all spending way to much effort choosing our gear based on how it sounds in our rooms vs fixing our rooms to give us more accurate sound from the gear we already have. For example suppose we go out and buy a speaker that has a very nice flat frequency response only to find that it sounds way to bright in our rooms so we take it back and try another brand that people tend to say is less bright. This helps but its still not what you wanted so you sell of that bright sounding amp and buy a HK for its warmth and finally add some MIT interconnects to help tame it down even more....

    This occurs everyday on the online forums with people asking for recomendations on products that are brighter or warmer sounding to fix what is actually a room issue. I'm not saying that we shouldn't choose gear that will help rooms one way or the other just that maybe we should be spending more attention on the source of the problem rather then a quick fix. I realize that for a lot of us treating the room is more difficult due to asthetics or lack of knowledge but IMO there should be more attention placed on educating people about acoustics then simply recomending a different peice of equipement to band aid the problem.

    Lets take a subwoofer as an example. As most people know subs are very placement sensetive with corners providing the most gain but also the most boom. We can tweak a subs placement for the maximum sound quality and volume but even then we're likely to have some peaks and or valleys in the response that we can't fix without something like the BFD. In this case we've taken the room as far as we can then tweaked it with the BFD rather then simply dump the sub in the corner and then tried to correct the response even though we've had to add in some very large gains to compensate the huge hole at 45 hz that weren't there when we moved it out a foot or so.

    In this case we needed to use both the room's acoustics as well as some additonal gear to get the optimal sound but in some cases a bright speaker could be made to sound better by changing its postion or adding a rug in front of them if the floor is a hard reflective surface. Maybe adding some drapes to the window beside the left speaker would help...

    There's a parabol about a bath tub that is over flowing because the taps were left on. You walk into the room and try to scoup the water out of the tub with a small cup but its still over flowing the sides...you can stop the water flowing onto the floor by getting a larger cup or you can simply turn off the water at the tap. To fix the problem look at its source...

    Thoughts?




  • Lex
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Apr 2001
    • 27460

    #2
    Yeah, I seem to remember someone selling their Maggies because of how they sounded in their room, instead of addressing the room. Doh! I didn't agree with that then, and still don't.

    Certainly, there are valid reasons to upgrade speakers, and or equipment. But when you have great speakers and they don't sound right, there must be another reason...

    Lex




    Cable Guy DVD Collection
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

    Comment

    • Andrew Pratt
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 16478

      #3
      doug the issues with the maggies had very little do with their sound...I wanted to use them as sides mounted to the wall which didn't work very well and they didn't play as loud as I needed. Obviously if a speaker needs 4 feet of breathing room but your room physically won't allow it no amount of room placment is going to fix it and new gear is in order.




      Comment

      • Lex
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Apr 2001
        • 27460

        #4
        ok, point taken. Just trying to stir things up.

        :LOL:


        Lex




        Cable Guy DVD Collection
        Doug
        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

        Comment

        • Andrew Pratt
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Aug 2000
          • 16478

          #5
          there's one in every crowd




          Comment

          • Danbry39
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2002
            • 1584

            #6
            Most people, myself included, don't have a clue as to how to tame room accoustics. It can be intimidating to embark on a project like this even if you do read up on it. Other matters, including things like speaker placement and matching components up synergistically probably don't even cross the mind of a lot of everyman home theater users or aren't practical due to space considerations. When I look at pictures of people's home theaters, a lot of times what I see is speakers right up against big screen TV's, not angled at all, and with the front sides of the speakers recessed somewhat behind the face of the TV. I guess compromises have to be made along the way. I'll admit I do play around with things like speaker placement quite a bit and maybe will opt for things like cloth curtains over metal blinds, but I personally wouldn't get overly consumed by it. Of course, I probably would if things didn't just cook sonically right now. Besides, at this stage of fine tuning, I enjoy the little tweeks that might bring out that little bit extra. And, of course, there's the all-time greatest tweak of all - Quantum Supernova audio interconnects. ;x( ;x( ;x(




            Keith
            Keith

            Comment

            • Burke Strickland
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Sep 2001
              • 3159

              #7
              Andrew -- re: Maggies as surrounds in your room -- too bad you didn't latch on to the MGMC1 surrounds (at $725US/pair brand new) which are designed to be wall-mounted. They sound darned good, too. Four of those and the MGCC2 center, plus the Maggie-modified ICBM would still only be about $2,700US brand new (and we know you would find them for a lot less on the "pre-owned" market.) :>)

              As for room treatment and placement, yes, those are important. They will help make good equipment live up to their performance potential (which is certainly a worthwhile goal) but they will not not make inherently crappy equipment sound good. It is amazing what just a little bit of rearranging can do to the balance of sound in a room, and what effect placement of a few plants or other irregularly shaped objects can have (usually beneficial) vs. placement of flat smooth surfaces such as glass covered art/posters or glass doors on cabinets and bookshelves (often not so beneficial to the sound even if pleasing to the eye).

              The whole listening environment is synergystic in its effect on the way we enjoy our music. If the HVAC system is too loud (or not doing its job of keeping temperature and humidity at appropriate levels) then the experience is ruined. Even the furniture has an effect, both on the propagation of sound and our ability to sit for very long and listen.

              Ultimately, it is the music itself, (and movies, too, of course) and not the equipment, that should be our rationale for setting up and maintaining the system, and should always be our justification for upgrades -- to maintain and truly enhance the system's capabilities to support our enjoyment, not just to have the latest "bells and whistles". Been there, done that -- and learned that approach is doomed to failure since it is impossible to keep up with the continuing changes in "what's available" -- and "new" is not always "improved". :>)

              So check out what is new, read about what others are doing with their systems, apply what might be useful (as inexpensively as possible without being tacky) :>) and then sit down with your own system and enjoy the music!

              Burke

              What you DON'T say may be held against you...

              Comment

              • John Holmes
                Super Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 2707

                #8
                Danbry39 and Burke have touched on some key issues. Andrew opened the correct door.

                The room as well as proper speaker placement, along with good calibration, is paramount in getting the most from your system. Small things like adding several vertical inches to get your bookself (or floorstanders)speakers to ear level, will shock most in the quailty of sound available from their speakers. I went as far to contact the MFG, to ensure I had the best info for setting up my speakers. Again, I'm lucky that I have a seperate room to play with my gear in.

                I think Andrew makes a valid point on giving up too early on a purchase. Especially speakers. They are so critical to proper setup. When I first got started in this hobby, it took me years to accept this. I finally took the time oneday to work on this free tweak. I could have slapped myself for not believing sooner. If you like the sound of a speaker enough to buy it, (when possible) do what it takes to to get the sound that you spent so much time looking for out of it.

                The other thing, take the time to learn about what you buy. I have a freind that refuses to read the manual on any equipment he buys. While he maybe the extreme, he isn't alone. Knowing the things unique to what you have is very important. For instance, I own THX speakers. They are almost the exact opposite of the Maggies that Andrew, Burke and other have had/still own. While the Maggies have almost no side dispersion, THX speakers excel at it. This makes placement of the two vastley different. Which speaker design is better is not what's on trial, nor do I think one is superior But, if one does not take the time to find this out...they could have just the opposite of what their needs are at home.

                The room can be scary to tackle. But, it is important. It can have a major impact on what you do and do not hear. Funny thing is, sometimes it doesn't take much. A drape, rug, foam, sofa, racks and mutiple combinations of such, can yield amazing results. And again, most of these items most probably already have. It is my opinion, that most of these things consume a bit of time and effort. The boring type of time and effort for most. And isn't as exciting as buy the new gear or talikng about it!




                "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                Comment

                • David Meek
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 8934

                  #9
                  there's the all-time greatest tweak of all - Quantum Supernova audio interconnects

                  Okay, Danbry get's the "shameless plug of the day" award.

                  Seriously tho' John is right. This whole room/speaker synergy issue is where I'm at on the remodel of Cinemeek. There is a LOT of information available, sometimes even to the point of being a detriment to the consumer (me) - I'm not sure WHAT to do at this point! There are some basics like moving the speakers away from walls, and separating them from an RPTV cabinet, both of which will improve the imaging/soundstage. There are also hundreds of combinations for toe-in, isolation, cabling, cable risers, cones, blocks, etc, etc, etc. . . and we haven't even gotten to dispersion/absorption panels, bass traps. Oh my aching head.

                  Originally posted by John
                  sometimes it doesn't take much

                  Isn't that the truth - toe-in is something that surprised me with the amount of difference it makes with just a small thing like changing the angle of the speaker with regard to your seating position. Just rotating my mains about 10-15 degrees IN made a shockingly good difference in the soundstage!




                  David - HTGuide flunky
                  Our "Theater"
                  Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                  .

                  David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 16035

                    #10
                    Just rotating my mains about 10-15 degrees IN made a shockingly good difference in the soundstage!
                    One might even think or say that with a well designed speaker, that wouldn't be the case, but not necessarily so. And sorting out the reasons can be more complex and subtle than you would think. For example, ensuring that the off axis dispersion below 12 - 15 kHz is very uniform through the presense and midrange to even 60 degrees off axis, while ensuring uniform room power response- may "create" other problems, if placement close to side walls results in strong early reflections and comb filtering at the listening position. Then, toe in will clearly help, even though the response of the speaker towards the listening axis isn't really the problem.

                    Good discussion started by Andrew, and good followups by all, especially John.

                    Best regards,

                    Jon




                    Earth First!
                    _______________________________
                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • Bruce
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 156

                      #11
                      My need to know won out over my pocketbook in the case of room acoustics as I was researching prepros like the Theta Casa Nova and it's many xover settings.

                      After downloading the manual, reading and not understanding, I embarked on a journey with F. Alton Everest and his book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" 4th edition in paperback.

                      With this book and the ETF acoustic measurement software (plus a calibrated mic) I was finally able to relate what i heard in my room and what I observed in the software graphs with real acoustic principles.

                      For me this was the biggest eye-opener of all. I could finally verify repeatedly things like speaker positioning, 1st order reflections, room modes, xover optimization, etc.




                      Bruce
                      ____________________________________________
                      Bruce

                      Comment

                      • Andrew Pratt
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 16478

                        #12
                        Bruce that sounds like a worthwhile investment in taking our hobby to the next level. I haven't done a full freq sweep of my sound system yet but even playing with the BFD I can now see and hear some of the effects of changing postions of the subs or lower crossover points etc.

                        I posted a thread a while back that had several links to some interesting reads on room acoustics...Its available here for those that would like to read up a little more on the subject at hand.




                        Comment

                        • RedStep
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2002
                          • 154

                          #13
                          Andrew you nailed it, we'll spend countless thousands of dollars on equiptment and none on room treatments. I believe that we study on things that interest us like equiptment, and don't educate ourselves on things kinda boreing, like room acoustics.

                          what is BFD??? ops:




                          RedStep
                          We are truly a product of the decisions we make
                          RedStep
                          We are truly a product of the decisions we make

                          Comment

                          • David Meek
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 8934

                            #14
                            Red, it's a Behringer Feedback Destroyer. See more info here. It helps you tame frequency peaks and nulls, primarily for a sub-woofer.




                            David - HTGuide flunky
                            Our "Theater"
                            Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                            .

                            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                            Comment

                            • Lex
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Apr 2001
                              • 27460

                              #15
                              Then you come to people like me, with such a crazy room, there's just not much you can do with room acoustics. I mean I have 3 large doorways, a double door with folding doors, a wall of windows 16 feet long, a fireplace, home theater, computer, furniture. I tell ya, I wouldn't know how to begin with this, the speakers don't really even back a wall really. It's like an acoustic treatment nightmare. It doesn't sound bad, actually, it's pretty nice. But I am sure there's peaks, nulls, etc all over the place.

                              Oh well, we enjoy what we have, it's all we can do sometimes.

                              Lex




                              Cable Guy DVD Collection
                              Doug
                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                              Comment

                              • Burke Strickland
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Sep 2001
                                • 3159

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Lex
                                ... with such a crazy room, there's just not much you can do with room acoustics. I mean I have 3 large doorways, a double door with folding doors, a wall of windows 16 feet long, ...
                                Just imagine what it would be like if it had NOT been custom designed as a home theater room. :>)

                                Burke

                                What you DON'T say may be held against you...

                                Comment

                                • Bruce
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 156

                                  #17
                                  Lex,

                                  I feel for ya buddy.

                                  But guess what? My room isn't exactly an acoustic fantasy either which is why I got into acoustically evaluating/tweaking it to begin with.

                                  Just imagine 3 large door/counter openings, a fireplace, a cathedral ceiling with a large ledge near the top, and one of the openings leads into another room with a cathedral ceiling almost twice as high.

                                  This setup has certainly earned it's "hobby" title, as I've spent countless hours "hobbying" away searching for the best sound I could get.




                                  Bruce
                                  ____________________________________________
                                  Bruce

                                  Comment

                                  • dsmith
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2003
                                    • 114

                                    #18
                                    I agree, the room is the most overlooked aspect in audio for most of us. In fact, my "dream" for some time has been to build a new house with a properly designed listening room. My speakers and electronics have about reached the point where not much improvement is to be had, at least not at a reasonable price. I will be much better served by putting my money into a superior acoustic environment.

                                    dsmith

                                    Comment

                                    • Ricky
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 226

                                      #19
                                      Beyond placement tweaks and room treatments, what about full equalization? This doesn't seem to be a big priority as alot of us don't really consider or try the Pioneer Elites with the automatic MCACC.

                                      Comment

                                      • sfdoddsy
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2000
                                        • 496

                                        #20
                                        I move a fair bit for business and evictions, and in any case no room is perfect, so I'm a big believer in full room EQ. Fortunately, the technology is getting better and the price is coming down. It won't be long before you can get a porgram for your PC that will do full room EQ.

                                        I've owned three different electronic room EQ systems, the Behringer Ultracurve, TACT and now dbx Driverack. The TACT is the best, but an Ultracurve is under $200 new now, and the Driverack under $500, so it is worth playing with.

                                        Steve




                                        Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                        Steve's OB Journey

                                        Comment

                                        • John Holmes
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 2707

                                          #21
                                          Full room eq, is probably the best way to get the most in quality sound from your enviroment. I don't feel that most would be comfortable with trying to eq the room though. As Ricky stated above, the "Elites" have made it easy for the avg person, to enjoy the benefits of full equalization.




                                          "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                                          "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                                          Comment

                                          • Rock Dog
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jan 2003
                                            • 417

                                            #22
                                            Andrew, I think that most would agree that there should be a degree of attention paid to the enviroment the electronics reside in.

                                            BUT... Most here are just plain loco, and want the newest toys and latest gadgets, regardless on whether the enviroment is perfect or not. I think a lot of folks buy their gear, in a large part, based on the "kool" factor and really don't care about absolutely maximizing all of the surroundings.




                                            -Thomas-

                                            The easiest way to find something lost around the house, is to buy a replacement.

                                            Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide Off-Topic section. It's FUN!!!

                                            -Thomas-

                                            As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.

                                            Hey You! Make sure you stop by the HTguide After Midnight section. It's FUN!!!

                                            Comment

                                            Related Topics

                                            Collapse

                                            • number17
                                              Room acoustic dilemma - rear speakers placement
                                              by number17
                                              I finally got my speakers and while I'm still shopping for a used amp (anybody who spots a marantz 5400, denon 2803 / 1804 or Yamaha RX-V1400 at ~ Cdn$500-700 I appreciate if you can let me know!) I have a dilemma with the placement of speakers in my room.

                                              Since I don't have a picture...
                                              17 August 2004, 13:53 Tuesday
                                            • Gables
                                              Overwhelmed...please help
                                              by Gables

                                              I need some serious help selecting a multi-room amplifier(s). I've spent the past 30 days researching the entire whole-house audio industry. I've visited countless websites and posted on several discussion boards seeking expert advice. I've talked to technical experts at Niles, Rotel and Triad....
                                              13 November 2003, 16:05 Thursday
                                            • zele
                                              Speaker range-room size combinations (802D, 803D, 805s)
                                              by zele
                                              A couple of days ago I had the following equipment delivered to my house for demo purpose:
                                              Speakers:802D, 803D, 805s
                                              Electronics:Classe CA-2200, CP-500, CDP-102

                                              I demoed them in the following two rooms:
                                              Living room: 8m x 5m (appr. 26 feet x 16 feet)
                                              Study:...
                                              30 July 2008, 06:53 Wednesday
                                            • Dustin B
                                              Design Help (Dedicated Theater Room Construction)
                                              by Dustin B
                                              It's taken over 6 months, but after a few more sheets of drywall go up in my new detached garage behind the house, the next item on the list of renos for the house I bought last June is the dedicated theater room. It presents a bit of a challenge in what I want to accomplish.

                                              Here is...
                                              28 January 2007, 11:34 Sunday
                                            • subynube
                                              Speakers a little too bright sounding
                                              by subynube
                                              I have built a set of stand mounted Nat P's. They are powered by an Emotiva amp, Emotova processor, and Denon cd/DVD player. I also have a DIY dayton reference sub for those interested.
                                              I feel they are fatiguing and and forward sounding at approximately 5-8khz range. That range seems a little...
                                              29 November 2007, 22:28 Thursday
                                            • Loading...
                                            • No more items.
                                            Working...
                                              Searching...Please wait.
                                              An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                              Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                              An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                              Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                              An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                              There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                              Search Result for "|||"