DVD-A, SACD...Multi

[bandit788]

Been buying up a bunch of the best DVD-A's and SACD since I've got my new Marantz receiver (SR6005), but I am so freakin confused about all the audio formats!!! My seven year old receiver was a little Denon 2105, worked fine but I wanted HDMI and a better receiver. I took out my Denon 2900 SACD/DVD-A player to try and go all HDMI...been using the PS3 until I get the Marantz UD-5005 Universal Player. So the PS3 via HDMI plays the DVD-A's and the receiver will say Multi Channel In PCM/DIG (seems to be 5.1), or Multi +Dolby EX PCM/DIG (seems to be 7.1). I can also have it go pure direct but it does not sound good at all. What I am asking is what is the difference in sound between this and if I actually have these playing on the DVD-A/SACD player. Im not going to lie, the Multi +Dolby EX sound so good.....I don't ever remember my Denon 2900 DVD-A/SACD player with a million interconnects sounding this good! Is my ear failing me or has my receiver upgrade just added some cool formats. When I get the universal player I will be able to see if I hear the difference. But for now Diana Krell and Queen's "A Night at the Opera" DVD-A sound amazing in the multi format!!!!!! BTW I have all B&W speakers with 7.1 setup.
Thanks for any input, been out of it to long!!!!

[Johnloudb]

Okay, well I didn't know that the PS3 played DVD-A discs, but some play SACD. But, I apparently the did. My understanding is that the new ones don't play SACD anymore.

Anyway, doesn't apply to you obviously.

I can also have it go pure direct but it does not sound good at all.

What is pure direct?


Well, you seem to be doing just fine, not sure what your questions are

but I am so freakin confused about all the audio formats!!!

What formats are you confused about. Since your using discs the only formats you need to be concerned with is SACD, DVD-A, CD, and maybe .WAV, .MP3, or other music files you'd put on a disc or thumb drive, if you player is capable of handling those formats.

I have a PS3 and I think it can handle lots of formats, though I haven't tried.

Been buying up a bunch of the best DVD-A's and SACD since I've got my new Marantz receiver (SR6005)

A little bird told me there is an SACD for sale in the HTGuide Pawn Shop forum. Though, I'm in no way associated with that seller! :lol:

[Ovation]

The PS3 is NOT playing the DVD-A portion of the disc. It is playing the Dolby Digital/DTS portion (lossy, not lossless). NO PS3 has ever supported the DVD-A format (no Sony disc player of any kind has, for that matter).

What the OP is getting with the PS3 and the Marantz receiver is the benefit of more flexible bass management/time alignment than was available in his old Denon player AND (if it has been set up properly) Audyssey's MultEQ system. These two elements (BM/TA and MultEQ) are very likely the reason why the lossy portion of the disc sound better than he remembers from the old Denon.

Using "pure direct" turns off both the BM/TA and the MultEQ--which would account for sounding worse. While some purists disagree, I have always found that proper BM/TA and good EQ for the sub, at least--two things that are available on this Marantz receiver--trump the difference between lossy and lossless MCH audio. Of course, lossless audio along with the EQ and BM/TA is even better, but lossless without either one vs. lossy with both, in my experience, loses out (unless all the speakers are identical, placed in an ideal ITU configuration and full-range--an exceedingly small number of cases).

[bandit788]

Johnloud what do u have for sale and how much??? I don't use MP3's, do use Apple TV to stream iTunes music and pandora/slacker radio.

Ovation, I'm pretty sure everything you said explains it. I did use the Audessy setup on a tripod and then used a SP meter to confirm decibel levels. Sonically my system has never sounded better. My wife can even tell, just wondering if it will get much better actually running the SACD's and DVD-A's as such?

[madmac]

As far as I know, Pure HI REZ DVD audio cannot be done via a HDMI cable. However, any decent dvd player with analog outs will support it. My first El cheapo Panasonic player played 24 bit no problem out it's analog outs!. The highest resolution of DVD audio is achieved in 2 channel stereo mode (24 bit @ 96khz sampling rate). Now, in order to get that unfortunately, you have to turn on the TV when you insert the DVD-A disc. Like all DVD's, it has a menu. If you just plop in the disc and press play, you will most often then not get the normal Dolby digital output (16 bit/ 48khz @ 5channels). While that may not sound bad, it has nothing on what the disc can really do!. Turn on the TV, go into the menu and chose the high rez output. Try the high rez 2 channel output as well as the hi rez advanced resolution surround. You will be very impressed I'm sure at the difference!. Like I said earlier, I am quite sure that HDMI will not pass that kind of resolution. I'm also quite sure the PS3 will not decode DVD-A in high rez also. You could try connecting the 2 analog outs from the PS3 to the receiver and see what happens in the hi rez 2 ch mode though.

The deal breaker for me however is that fact that you MUST turn on the TV to see the DVD-A menu and change the output from Dolby digital into the hi rez modes. Music and having the TV on are two separate things for me. I DO NOT like having a TV staring at me when I'm listening to music (Unless it's a concert video!!). I believe the makers of the DVD-A discs default the output to Dolby Digital in insure that the disc will play on all systems at the outset, regardless of what DVD player you plop it into. Sad really because I just want to plop the disc in and automatically get the HI REZ stuff without having to turn on the TV.

Another format you might want to check out is HDCD. Most CD and DVD players as well as receivers will decode that format. This format can achieve stunning audio results when well recorded. I got one CD once that was in HDCD format and didn't even indicate that fact on the packaging. Jewel's CD "Spirit" is pressed in HDCD and sounds amazing. In a nutshell, HDCD produces the equivalent of 20 bit sound on a 2 channel CD. :E

[madmac]

@Bandit.....To clarify, Here is the lowdown on the formats:

DVD-A = 24 bit sound (44.1 to 96khz sampling) Any DVD player will decode it if you use it's analog outs. I'm not so sure via it's optical, coax, or HDMI outs however. If you're receiver screen indicates 24 bit sound once you choose this format in the DVD-A menu, then it works via the cable used and your receiver can decode it. If your receiver does not indicate any hi rez format being played using digital cable inputs, then you are just hearing regular DD in that case (16 bit ).

SACD = 20 bit sound in 5 channels (You need a SACD enabled player to hear the HI REZ content in this case, otherwise, it's just CD quality)

HDCD = Not true(ie..pure) 20 bit sound, but the equivalent of this via a special encoding process at the time of recording and mfr of the disc. Most modern CD and DVD players will decode it via their analog out's and all modern receivers will decode it as well via an optical, coax, or HDMI cable.

[Kal Rubinson]

To further clarify:

@Bandit.....To clarify, Here is the lowdown on the formats:

DVD-A = 24 bit sound (44.1 to 96khz sampling) Any DVD player will decode it if you use it's analog outs. I'm not so sure via it's optical, coax, or HDMI outs however.

It can be output from any/all of those digital links depending on the machine. I use HDMI for it on all my universal players.

SACD = 20 bit sound in 5 channels (You need a SACD enabled player to hear the HI REZ content in this case, otherwise, it's just CD quality)

More likely the equivalent of 24bit/176.4 resolution in 6 channels (5.1). [/QUOTE]

[Johnloudb]

Johnloud what do u have for sale and how much???

You can check it out here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=39314

[madmac]

To further clarify:
It can be output from any/all of those digital links depending on the machine. I use HDMI for it on all my universal players.

More likely the equivalent of 24bit/176.4 resolution in 6 channels (5.1).

[/QUOTE]

Really Kal????....176.4 khz processing??......24 bit??? I thought only DVD-A could handle that 24 bit resolution??. Interestingly, I have a Diana Krall SACD that gives no indication of the resolution or the sampling rate at all for that matter. I have always read the SACD's were pure 20 bit resolution......never any indication of the sampling rate though??.

I have a Diana Krall DVD-A of "love Scenes" that in high rez 2 ch audio is absolutely stunning!!! :E (The standard CD is excellent as well). Like I mentioned earlier, having to turn on the TV to change the audio format on DVD-A's is somewhat of a deal breaker for me. SACD's play in 5ch format which kind of irks me a bit. A lot of the 5ch mixes that are done for SACD format are a bit too 'surroundie' for me!!. My Rotel in 5ch stereo format produces a much nicer 5ch presentation of all cd's and dvd audio formats. :T

[bandit788]

Wow all the info is awesome, thanks!!!! So yeah I hope DVD-A can pass via HDMI!!!!! Considering the universal player does not have interconnects, just HDMI and digital. So yes I have figured out the disc are doing DTS surround which is not bad until I get my new player...but check this out! My Sony Blu-Ray player in the bedroom is playing SACD's! It says PCM 176.4kHz multi channel in:-) I bought the same Marantz receiver for the bedroom and installed 5.1...all in ceiling with in wall center. Jeff Beck SACD sounding good in the bedroom!!!!! Not even my B&W's, hehe

[Ovation]

DVD-A can certainly pass via HDMI (except the earliest versions). DVD-A are usually 24bit (though I have a few that are 20bit). Sample rate varies from 44.1 to 192 khz (for 2 channel) and 44.1 to 96 for MCH.

SACD is one bit at 2.8x mhz--conversions by various gear to PCM often render it at an equivalent to 24 bit/88.2 khz for MCH or 176.4 khz for 2 channel. It is gear dependent, however.

HDMI is capable of transmitting a DSD SACD signal without conversion, though the abilities of pre-pros/AVRs vary widely as to their ability to cope with such a signal--the same applies to players (some will send a DSD stream via HDMI, many will not). As far as I know, there is no gear that can do both bass management AND time alignment of DSD (some will do BM, like mine, but I don't know if any will do TA). Both BM and TA can be done after a conversion to PCM.

I will leave aside audibility issues regarding such conversions (no desire to fuel a huge debate), but HDMI can certainly carry "pure hi-res" audio.

Oh, and while any DVD player with MCH analogue output will be able to give you MCH audio from a DVD-A disc, only a player that is DVD-A capable will give you the hi-res audio. The rest are simply giving the same Dolby/DTS lossy signal that can be carried by a S/PDIF connection.

[Kal Rubinson]

Really Kal????....176.4 khz processing??......24 bit??? I thought only DVD-A could handle that 24 bit resolution??. Interestingly, I have a Diana Krall SACD that gives no indication of the resolution or the sampling rate at all for that matter. I have always read the SACD's were pure 20 bit resolution......never any indication of the sampling rate though??.

Note that I said that it was the "equivalent" since it is a 1-bit system.

SACD's play in 5ch format which kind of irks me a bit. A lot of the 5ch mixes that are done for SACD format are a bit too 'surroundie' for me!!. My Rotel in 5ch stereo format produces a much nicer 5ch presentation of all cd's and dvd audio formats. :T

Not my experience but my selection of SACDs might be different from yours. My problem with DVD-A is the lack of interesting repertoire.

[bandit788]

Ovation you are truly very knowledgable audiophile, as all of you seem to be. I think I am golden, thank you all for the input...will just wait on my Marantz UD5005, hope no one hates it cause it will look so good with the receiver:-)

[bandit788]

Ovation....Also I really think u are correct about the BM/TA and multi EQ making a huge difference, u are wise and new technogy is wonderful!!!!

[madmac]

Note that I said that it was the "equivalent" since it is a 1-bit system.

Not my experience but my selection of SACDs might be different from yours. My problem with DVD-A is the lack of interesting repertoire.

Sadly Kal, the DVD-A and SACD formats are basically dead in the water at this point so what you see on the shelves is what you get!. I would like to see more CD's pressed in HDCD capability however because they are the same price typically as regular CD's and are completely compatable with any player. :T

[Ovation]

Not dead so much as niche. I've recently purchased a DVD-A by Rush (Moving Pictures--one of my desert island albums) and several more are now available. I've also picked up Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd (neither of which are likely among Kal's favourites, if my regular reading of his column is any indication, but still evidence of a not-dead-yet niche). I also continue to expand my collection of classical music with frequent purchases of new recordings on SACD.

It is true that neither format took off in the way I would have liked when I first started buying them--I've long since made my peace with that. However, just as there is room for niche products in a variety of areas, I think there's room for these formats for a while longer. Of course, I still own and use a MiniDisc deck and have over 150 HD DVDs, so I'm a "niche" kind of guy.

[Ovation]

Ovation you are truly very knowledgable audiophile, as all of you seem to be. I think I am golden, thank you all for the input...will just wait on my Marantz UD5005, hope no one hates it cause it will look so good with the receiver:-)

Thanks for the kind words (though there are many far more expert than I am). Enjoy the Marantz (my SACD/DVD-A player is a Marantz, a DV-6400 from the pre-HDMI days--still going strong, though).

[Kal Rubinson]

Sadly Kal, the DVD-A and SACD formats are basically dead in the water at this point so what you see on the shelves is what you get!.

Really? This past week, I added 7 new SACD releases to my collection and today I ordered 3 more. Of course, all this is via Internet as I have not seen a well-stocked B&M retail shop in years.

I would like to see more CD's pressed in HDCD capability however because they are the same price typically as regular CD's and are completely compatable with any player. :T

I have nothing against HDCD but......talk about a dead format!

[bandit788]

Kal what site do you get most of them from?

[Kal Rubinson]

Most come direct from the companies but others from Amazon and sites listed on www.sa-cd.net

[madmac]

Really? This past week, I added 7 new SACD releases to my collection and today I ordered 3 more. Of course, all this is via Internet as I have not seen a well-stocked B&M retail shop in years.
I have nothing against HDCD but......talk about a dead format!

The HDCD format is not dead but simply used on many CD's (ie..Neil Young's stuff)but not advertised as such. It simply exists and is not in many cases, labelled on the CD packaging itself.

Now as for DVD-A and SACD, here in Canada they are all but gone. I have seen no new release albums pressed in either of those formats in years. I bought a few at Future shop a couple of years back but they were older releases.

For now, the only Hi-rez stuff I've seen has been concerts on Blu ray which are obviously 24 bit and sound fabulous. I think that format could be the new Hi-rez format for audio only and has a huge storage potential!! :T

[Kal Rubinson]

The HDCD format is not dead but simply used on many CD's (ie..Neil Young's stuff)but not advertised as such. It simply exists and is not in many cases, labelled on the CD packaging itself.

I know and it is so stealthy as to be invisible to all but a few. Do you (or does anyone) determine a purchase based on inclusion of HDCD?

Now as for DVD-A and SACD, here in Canada they are all but gone. I have seen no new release albums pressed in either of those formats in years.

Is the Internet different in Canada? If you go to www.sa-cd.net, you can see new and past listings as well as international links for vendors, including some in Canada.

I bought a few at Future shop a couple of years back but they were older releases.

Yeah. B&M stores are lame for music these days. Heck, I haven't seen a "Future Shop" in many years.

For now, the only Hi-rez stuff I've seen has been concerts on Blu ray which are obviously 24 bit and sound fabulous. I think that format could be the new Hi-rez format for audio only and has a huge storage potential!! :T

Yup. BTW, there already are audio-only BR discs. See http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/

[Ovation]

The HDCD format is not dead but simply used on many CD's (ie..Neil Young's stuff)but not advertised as such. It simply exists and is not in many cases, labelled on the CD packaging itself.

Now as for DVD-A and SACD, here in Canada they are all but gone. I have seen no new release albums pressed in either of those formats in years. I bought a few at Future shop a couple of years back but they were older releases.

For now, the only Hi-rez stuff I've seen has been concerts on Blu ray which are obviously 24 bit and sound fabulous. I think that format could be the new Hi-rez format for audio only and has a huge storage potential!! :T

If you're in the Montreal area, you at least have an annual opportunity to pick some up at the Festival Son et Image audio show (I make an annual pilgrimage to get some discs and gaze at gear I will never be able to afford).

Otherwise, I've managed to build a sizeable collection of each format--about 300 SACDs and 100 DVD-As or so--while living in Canada, and I continue to add to the collection (just spent a blissful 45 mins. listening to my brand spanking new copy of Wish You Were Here on SACD in all its MCH glory).

It does help to be a fan of classical music if you want to amass a large collection of SACDs, but it isn't necessary (though I've greatly expanded my appreciation for classical music via the excellent RCA Living Stereo SACD series and by following some of Kal's recommendations in his column over the past several years). It is not as effortless as buying CDs or downloads, but few rewarding pursuits are effortless.

[madmac]

I know and it is so stealthy as to be invisible to all but a few. Do you (or does anyone) determine a purchase based on inclusion of HDCD?

If a CD was labelled as HDCD, I would be definitely more inclined to buy it for sure :T

Is the Internet different in Canada? If you go to www.sa-cd.net, you can see new and past listings as well as international links for vendors, including some in Canada.

I'll check that out. I thought Music Mfr's were not pressing those anymore.

Yeah. B&M stores are lame for music these days. Heck, I haven't seen a "Future Shop" in many years.

Yup. BTW, there already are audio-only BR discs. See http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/

Well, I hope to see more honestly. The Concert selection on Blu ray is quite lame here in Canada right now. Chris Botti live in Boston is still my benchmark for sound and Vision on BD right now. ;x(

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, I hope to see more honestly. The Concert selection on Blu ray is quite lame here in Canada right now. (

It sounds like Canada is a third-world country in this regard.

[madmac]

It sounds like Canada is a third-world country in this regard.

Third World country for music??? Hehehe....now your pushing it Kal !! :roll:

We actually do quite fine here.........

[Kal Rubinson]

Third World country for music??? Hehehe....now your pushing it Kal !! :roll:

We actually do quite fine here.........

My comment was intended to be humorous and rather more restricted than music in general. But I was not the one who was being critical of Canada in this regard; I was just incredulous.