Snake Oil Debunking (mebbe)

[HedgeHog]

Howdy,

So, I couldn't resist since there a loaner programs for these "room treatment". Initial thought: "Man, they look way more homemade than I had expected; especially, some brochure pics makes them look quite nice."



I have to admit, I have a lousy room to begin with (off-centered system, back opened to kitchen, corner fireplace, and probably over-sized choice of speakers). But we'll see if these make any difference in sound quality at all. So far, my only other treatment is a pair of Primacoustic MaxTrap bass panels in the corners.

Will report after some listening....I think I'll ring up my dealer and see if he's keem on trying these in his room!

-H

[bigburner]

What does the manufacturer claim that they do? Is there any science to support these claims? If not I suppose it will come down to faith.

Nigel.

[madmac]

What the heck are those things????!!!!##???!!!

[baniels]

Here is some insight... http://www.synergisticresearch.com/f...oom-treatment/

[bigburner]

All together now...

Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu
Sabbe satta abyapajjha hontu

[madmac]

@Hedgehog.......well, we're waiting for your verdict!!!?? My opinion.....snake oil for sure!.

[HedgeHog]

Sorry for the delay...been sick.

Anyhoo, upon first impression...there IS a difference. But I am going to invite a 3rd party to come listen so I can be sure. I cannot say if it's better or worse. It seems to bring some of the metallic notes more alive. Like high-hats, cymbal rides, even strings. And for some reason, it does concur with most reviews claiming the soundstage is wider...I wouldn't go as far as claiming a "collapse" in soundstage upon the bowls removal but it does seem to be there. Almost like those "concert hall" DSP effects but not as pronounced and fake.

I'll play with it some more and see. So far the material I've tried are pretty much the similar: K2CD of Oscar Peterson - We Get Request, K2CD - The Sound of Music Soundtrack, Best Audiophile Voices V, regular CDs of Diabolus In Musica: Accardo Interpeta Paganni - Salvatore Accardo and For Sentimental Reason - Linda Ronstadt with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra.

I'll try some SACD and DVD-A later.

-H

P.S. So far, I wouldn't plunk the cash down for it. Stay tuned for more.

[madmac]

Hedgehog......You've gotta do a 'blindfold' test with a friend. It's the only scientific way to be sure with any A/B comparison. And, your guess must be right the majority of the time if these things really make a difference!. My guess is not in this case though.

[HedgeHog]

Ok...after further listening, I think these things do make a difference in the sound. However, in my case, I did not like the difference that it made.

For this test, I just used one passage repeatedly: Bass Face Trio Plays Gershwin - Our Love Is Here To Stay (SACD).

Three tests were done:

1) With the two Magnatron at the 1st reflection point halfway up the wall (4.5'), the Bass Station 6" from the front wall directly below the Vibratron (spaceship thingy) and middle of both speakers, the Gravitron on the back room wall above my kitchen counter (near the ceiling) and the same left-right position as the Vibratron, and the Vibratron right above my plasma (74" high).

2) Same as above but the Vibatron was mounted below my plasma (34" high).

3) With all the funky stuff removed.


So the devices do widen the soundstage and affect the height and depth of the image. Having the Vibratron higher up doesn't really raise the image (not that I noticed) but does diminish some highs from tweeter height. What I mean is that a cymbal crash isn't as pronounced at tweeter height but it doesn't elevate that cymbal to 74" high neither. With the Vibratron below the TV, it does emphasize some frequencies and details. Like the scratching sounds of the snare and fret buzz from the bass. The width is wider but it seems to move the central image back (a bit too much to my taste).

After removing the devices, I noticed the sound was warmer overall. My wife commented that those devices made the system tinny. I think it definitely reminds me of those DSP that have the "Concert Hall Effect" options. Wider but thinned out. Again, not to my liking.

These things probably do work and work well with some systems...notably mid-heavy tones. But in something that's more clinical and laid back as the 802Di/Classe combo, I cannot recommend it. In fact, the sound became quite fatiguing.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents. Oh, I did some measurements using XTZ. (ignore that my room still suck and requires more treatment) There was some noticeable measured difference in certain frequencies. I repeated the measurement per configuration and each time the graphs were the same. I then exported the curves out (raw full range) and imported them into REW v5 for this overlay comparison.

Red line - ART System removed
Blue line - ART System (Vibratron below TV)
Green line - ART System (Vibratron above TV)

[madmac]

Wow!! This is taking 'snake oil' to a whole new level !!. Did you do the listening test blindfolded?. If you did not and knew when they were there and when they were not there, the mind will likely hear a difference. I have a hard time believing they made any substantial difference in sound.

[Johnloudb]

Hi Hedgehog,

Well, you've opened a can of worms now. I'm glad you took some measurements ... that's great. I didn't think you'd measure a difference, but thought you might hear a small difference.

Although, I don't think those things are what you'd call room treatment. You need some real room treatment - see those rocky mountains in your graph.

We use some large ASC bass traps in the corners and RPG Skyline Diffusers along the back wall.

I hope WAF is not an issue for you.

Also, I'd be interested to see three different measurement plots without anything in the room changing to see what kind of measurement error is involved here.

Also, if you were in the room and standing in different positions that could easily cause the kind of change shown in your plot.

John

[HedgeHog]

Howdy,

I did close my eyes and have someone else remove the devices. You can hear a subtle change in timbre.

WRT treatment, my room is a really bad layout and I've just started to treat it. I have two Primacoustic MaxTraps in the two front corners and have added thick/heavy drapery to the patio door on the side. I think I still need one more MaxTrap to make a column. But my main issue is a corner fireplace and the opening to the kitchen/nook/hallway at the back of this family room.

Anyhoo, I thought if these things can positively affect the sound, it would be slightly more WAF friendly than diffusers and stuff.

Cheers,
-H

PS. I resampled the measurement sitting in the same spot after I had the missus remove the devices. She left the room after each time (since she has zero interest in what I was doing). And according to XTZ, those raw readings should look like that. I believe the ambient readings presents a smoother line.

[stuofsci02]

Those measured differences don't appear to be any different then moving any piece of reflective furniture in and out of the room. The only affected frequencies seem to be those above 2KHz. I would bet that a small table, or a wall picture with glass covered frame would look very same in the measurements.

[madmac]

@ Hedgehog- "(since she has zero interest in what I was doing)." Hehehehehe.......what a surprise that is !!!. Well, at least she helped you!!??.