First Stereo: B&W 685 + NAD?

[geewhiz]

Hi, I am purchasing my first stereo and did some auditioning (2 hours in one store!) over the weekend. Did not know what to expect and now all I want to do is take some equipment home and crank it up. I tried to do as much research as possible before going out to listen but now have more questions than I started with...

The system is for my bedroom which is about 3mx4m, currently using Logitech z2300 hooked up to the computer (SB Audigy 2). Which up until now were awesome, and compared to other computer speakers they are.

My budget is $AU2000.

I got to listen to a pair of B&W 685's ($999) with a NAD C315bee (amp $399) and a NAD C542 (CD Player $699). I am pretty set on getting the 685 as they seem to work well with the various types of music I listen to, initially I thought they lacked in bass, but since some songs had really good bass and others didn't, its probably more to do with the recording.

The amp seemed to be able to provide more than enough power to the speakers and I only turned them up to about 25% and that was party loud. My question is do I need more power? Will this improve anything to do with the sound quality? I have read a lot of people setting up the 685 with more powerful amps than the C315 (40w).

Dynamic range: The speakers are rated 25w-100w and the dynamic range of the amp goes to 95w and if I bought a more powerful amp and if it goes higher than 100 (most likely) will it destroy the speaker? Also lets say I Turned the C315 to 100% will that destroy the speaker? it says its only 40w so it should be safe? (even though at 25% is really loud).

I was kinda shocked to find the CD player costing more than the amp as I initially figured I will spend more on the amp than the CD player. its a nice CD player and is very quick at getting started and changing tracks. The salesperson said I will get better resolution/quality out of this CD player than a cheaper one. I always thought that CD's were digital so they either work or they don't. I can understand that better processors/output will deliver better sound, but not too sure about it having better resolution? Would using the drive on my computer be just as good?

A friend of mine told me not to even worry about a CD player and just rip everything lossless to the computer. And in the event that I needed a CD player, I can just use the computer. 75% of my music is on the computer so it does make sense. The problem with this setup is that I will be getting rid of the computer to make room for the stereo.... and I find the computer too noisy. Using a squeezebox is an option, but would be an upgrade later as I want to stay within my budget. But the convenience would be awesome. (for extra credit is squeezebox any good?)

The other consideration are my records. I have a turntable, but its attached to a Philips midi system and it doesn’t spin at the right speed... so I need a new one. I would like to buy a second hand Technics 1210 mk5 which a friend is selling for $600, would this $600 be better spent on a different TT? I have only ever heard and used DJ type TT. The reason I want one is because they are indestructible, highly adjustable and its fun to play with the pitch control of course this would alter my budget substantially if buying both the CD player and the TT.

Long post summary:

* Is 40w amp powerful enough for 685?
* dynamic range?
* am I spending too much on CD player?
* what to do about records and MP3's?

I would appreciate as much feedback as possible and thank those that do. Also please comment on the overall system. I know a lot of people have gone Rotel+B&W but I was not able to find a dealer that had both to audition, so if anyone has compared the two why did you choose the one that you did?

[Briz vegas]

My guess is that you have been chatting to Merv at Northside or Kevin at AV Domain. They both carry the 685 & NAD combo.

Gees you ask alot of questions

$2,000 AU is a tricky budget. I had two workmates/friends come to me for advice with that budget. One ended up spending over $4k, he went with tubes and is deeply in love with a great little system based around the Quad 11L and Jas amp. The other guy is yet to buy but is also leaning towards Quad - he wanted bigger speakers and found that the 684s need more power than he could afford.

1) 40w - I'll do the "old fogey" thing and say "back in '86" my first system was a sansui (30 watts) driving a pair of Mordaunt Short MS30s (large standmounts) - kept that amp for 10 years and it did just fine as the speakers were not too hard to drive. 685s would be a modern equivalent (actually much cheaper by comparison - my MS30s were $700 in '86 dollars)

2) Ah! grasshopper has much to learn. First have a laugh- assuming you have not seen my recent post of this video on this forum

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZutcPUd_AVQ

The 25 to 100 watts is the recommended amplifier power for the speaker. It does not represent what will kill your speakers. Over driving the amp (exceeding 40w continuous output, or peaks over 95w) will result in distortions that have the capacity to damage your speakers. Tweeters seem to be most vulnerable to this. Simple rule - if it starts to distort turn it down.

3) No (remember garbage in, garbage out - its the same with hifi), although you sometimes can get that player for $599 (aim for a 10% discount on the system - just ask "If I were to buy today what is your best price on this system"). Merv is a bit of a fan of the 542. Your source is important. If you were going to use your computer I would recomend an external DAC which start at about the same price. A good CD player has a disc transport that delivers low error rates (its reading/playing real time unlike a computer), a good quality DAC, good power supply and a good analogue stage.

4) The NAD does not have a phono stage so you would need to buy one as a extra. They start from around $150. The technics would do the job - so would a second hand Rega or a Rega P1. I think Northside stocks them. Turntable guys say don't use DJ tables but I think at this "starter" price it probably does not matter as much. Vinyl is definitely fun to get into - I've been tempted to get back into it myself (even though I hated it in the 80s as CD was the thing to have).

RE your MP3s - there are a couple of choices. I prefer CDs even on my PC with $15 speakers. With lossey software I would just run it from your PC. If you have lossless files then a squeezebox of similar should produce pretty good results (that is second hand advice already), although if you get into the audio thing over time you would want to use an external DAC.

Alternately get a NAD DVD player. CDs will not sound as good as with the 542 (my $1200 NAD DVD does not play CDs as well as that player) but it will play MP3s. Personally I would not go down this path as MP3s are generally poor quality anyway. First rule of hifi - the less a component does the better it usually does it. The 542 will play CD-Rs.

Thats probably enough from me. Have fun.

[geewhiz]

You are correct! I live out in the sticks (Cleveland) so AV Domain is the closest.

I was quite happy with the overall loudness of the amp, I will try out a more powerful amp just to see. But even going to the next one up (50w) I doubt there would be much difference for an increase in price (got to keep in budget!).

So distortion from the amp kills the speaker and anything above 40w that the amp is putting out may start to distort the sound. So in reality if you wanted to use the full range of the speaker, without distorting, you would ideally want a 100w amp that could accommodate the whole dynamic range without having to go above its continuous output of 100w.

I have decided not to use the computer as a source for CD's mainly because, as you said, I will need an external DAC/high end sound card to get the same level of output as the 542. Also MP3’s are not going to sound as good as CD, but I have upgraded soundcards in the past and found improvements. And I’m getting rid of the computer.

The turntable is a tricky one as I have more records than CD’s but am buying more CD’s atm. A new MK5 retails for about 1300-1400 new, and this one is in great condition and I will probably get it for $500+beer. I saw a Project III at todds hifi for 600 which has the phono built in.

Yes, I have seen the funny video. Its weird seeing Rowan Atkinson doing something other than Mr Bean. There was black adder, but he did Mr bean for such a long time and it was better.

[Alaric]

Project III at todds hifi for 600 which has the phono built in.

I'm not sure about the exchange rate , but that's not a half-bad TT.

[Briz vegas]

Geez, geewhiz (pun intended) you are local. I'm also bayside but a bit further north.

I'm closer to Todds but the closest hifi dealer to you is Aussie Hifi on Redland Bay Rd,Capalaba. Hard to find. I went there recently and I got the "wide boy" vibe from the sales guys. That might be a little unfair as I have only been there once. They sell marantz (check out the reviews of their current budget integrated), Linn($$$), Mordaunt short (including the $9k performance 6, still want to hear those) and Rega. They have their own speakers which I am undecided about, and of course no 685s.

I got my gear from Caxton Audio :T , Toombul Music and Northside hifi. Toombul are close if you go via the gateway and they sell B&W, Marantz and Cambridge Audio, amongst others. You can check out the 802D if you go there (nice to dream)

Dynamic range? ie difference between softest and loudest sound - normally a spec on electronics not speakers. Specs don't generally tell you how loud a speak will go, however you can do some sums based on the speakers sensitivity. 685s sensitivity allows it to produce 88dB at one metre driven by 1 watt of power. From memory you drop 3db for each metre (or is it 2m) further away from the speaker and it takes double the power to add 3dB to the volume.

So if you sit 3 metres from your speakers and your amp is running at one watt you hear 82dB. 4 watts gives you 88db and 32w gets you to 97dB. Into that equation you have to factor in the peaks in the music (more of an issue on vinyl due to massive dynamic compression on many CDs these days, although a CD has more theoretical dynamic range if the engineer cares to use it)

[geewhiz]

I haven't been to Aussie Hifi because the ad's looked a bit JBHifi-ish... Todds apprently have a sale this Saturday so will go there, then head upto toombull the back round to AV domain and hopefully make some sort of decision.

I checked out some reviews for the marrantz amp (Hifi choice I think), but seems to be a bit pricer than the NAD. Will have a listen to it with the marrantz CD player. I doubt I could tell the difference anyway.

[Briz vegas]

Sales at Todds :naughty: ...... unless you intend to grab a box and run that is not a good idea. There will be lots of people there wanting a deal on a television, naff all chance to hear anything, $50 off the NAD gear would be nomal when negotiating a price and they don't have any nice speakers to offer you.

If you want 3 options drop into Caxton Audio instead. The are located right between Toombul and AV Domain. They can offer you the same NAD gear with Quad speakers which go for $600, $800, $1000 etc - very well reviewed - just google them. Great sound and they look $$$ with the piano finish. That way if you went with the smaller ones you could get some speaker cable and still be within your budget and you get to hear the things to help your decision making process.

[geewhiz]

I actually bought stuff!

Went to check out the Quads, I liked the 11 and the 12's. The 11s are awesome for a small speaker. 12's were good too, but something seemed missing so I went back to listen to the 685's and I bought them. It just seemed clearer for some reason. If I was getting speakers for my office I would get 11, they seemed very easy to listen to and I did not think the bass was lacking.

I listened to all the speakers with NAD equipment and settled on the 315 and got the cheaper (matching) CD player, C515. I'm going to use the money saved on a better cartridge. Also thinking that in say 3 years time something like the squeezebox with lossless files (ripped from CDs I own...) would make the CD player redundent. It also means I can spend money on music... I do like the C542 with the HDCD they sounded really good, but those CD's tend to sound better anyway and I only have 3 cd's with that so... not really worth it. Not sure if I regret not buying it now

First Listen

When I got it home and started setting up I realised that the speakers are actually quite big. They don't fit on the bookshelf as planned and wall mounting would only be a good idea if u had double brick walls. At the moment they are just on the ground. So now I have to get some stands.

My concerns about the power of the amp have been washed away in a torrent of sound ;x( . I have much respect for lower powered amps. It has more power than I am ever going to use in my bedroom. It was a bit weak when listening to the iPod, but I blame the iPod and restriced volume feature.

I was listening to clouds taste metalic and I heard a flicking sound which I thought meant I had stuffed up the setup some how. But I have a feeling its the sound of the reel recording the music...

The amp does have a humm/buzz sound its not loud and can only hear it close to it eg when changing CDs. But it still makes the noise when on standby. I checked all connections and they are all correct so not sure what it is. I also get a loud popping noise when turning it on and off. Just a few problems, but I'm sure they can be fixed.

Overall I am extreamly happy that I have graduated to high fidelity.

[Alaric]

I'm not sure of the exchange rate , but if you're set on that Technics table , http://www.djdeals.com/technicsSL1210MK5.htm

[Briz vegas]

Congratulations on the purchase.

Is the amp hum from the amp itself or through the speakers. If it is through the speakers you may find it dissappears if you disconnect the CD player and any other input devices. You may find it is one or the other (CD or ipod). I am told this is a grounding problem.

If it is a very slight hum it may not be worth running around after - lots of systems out there do that. Take them to a mates house and it may well be dead quiet (I speak from experience on that score).

[geewhiz]

I'm going to get a second hand technics 1200 mk2. The Mk5 does have the better tone arm and cable. But those 2 things are easily upgradeable. Most likely from http://www.kabusa.com/ .

The more I play it the humm seems to get quieter. I am also going to get a better quality powerboard (Surge protector). My powerboard currently has burn marks on it from my dodgy heater....

[Briz vegas]

If you can run the amp straight to a wall socket. Some guys in our club
( http://www.qldaudioclub.org.au/ ) have even tried using house wire as a power cord and claim it works a treat (its illegal so it was only an experiment). Personally I favour a good aftermarket cord (although your NAD may not take aftermarket cords - my old NAD T713 doesn't).

I would not worry about the surge protection (or if you are worried just switch off at the wall when not in use or just use it on the CD player). Hifi, though not indestructible, is not sensitive like a PCs.

Your amp will perform best if it has lots of clean current. Thats why alot of audio nuts have dedicated circuits to their hifi. Only the weekend before last an electrician (who also happens to be a audiophile) recommended running a stove quality dedicated circuit to my stereo to improve the available current to the amp. I have to get the house rewired at some point so it is a no brainer really.

[H.T.C]

I was going to say you might want c325bee but you already selected.

briz vegas,is that rowen atkinson after black adder ?

[geewhiz]

For an extra 10watts it didn't seem worth it. Of course it does have the preout which I didn't notice earlier...

[Briz vegas]

I was going to say you might want c325bee but you already selected.

briz vegas,is that rowen atkinson after black adder ?

Before Black Adder. I just did a quick google on old Rowen. I knew he was a car nut, I did not know that he crashed a Buggatti Veyron - yes the 16 cylinder insanely fast Buggatti that costs a zillion dollars to make. 8O

[geewhiz]

Rowen Atkinson came to my school fun day once. He made funny faces.

Its been smooth sailing so far, but I think my amp has picked up a small problem.

The volume control makes a noise when adjusting the volume with the remote, so its something to do with the motor inside the volume control. It sounds like a spring of somekind has come loose. It is possible that its not broken in yet and its a problem that will go away. I will wait till next week to ring the dealer if it doesnt fix it self by then. It was working perfectly uptill now.

[Briz vegas]

Do you mean the volume knob itself goes "Whirr" or more like a "dzzzzzzz". My T713 does that. Its normal - its the little electric motor doing what your fingers do. Its not very loud but still audible (not through the speakers etc).

Everything on my T713 still works perfectly after over 10 years. Its on permanent loan to my mum (which is kind of ironic as she thinks I'm nuts for buying expensive hifi gear).

[geewhiz]

Yeah, its just the motor. Maybe I just didn't notice it earlier because its so quiet.