Dual DD 10's

[Jesse111]

Yes, the twin girls have arrived. Here's a few quick pics with bad lighting but better ones to come. The Velodyne logo is an actual up close shot I took in the dark.

I have made a bit of an oversight though. It's one of those kinda things that is so obvious you just don't see it.

Since I run a the McIntosh MCD/MDA 1000 straight to the amps, I of course have to preamp. Since I have no analog inputs into the DAC I can do very little manual adjusting with the Velodyne software. I'm able to do an auto adjust since that option takes place within the sub on its own. But I am able to change the crossover from the default 80hz down to 40hz but that's it. However, it does help. But as for measured adjustments of volume and frequency hills and valleys as well as a multitude of other options, I'll have to wait a few days.

So, I'm off to find a very cheap preamp to have around for configuration purposes. It will take me a few days to get my hands on one but no worries. I will have one soon enough.

More pics and a few observations on the way. Stay tuned.

[gross30]

You will love the dual DD's. Glad to hear you got them. Have fun and happy listening, congrats... :T

[alebonau]

Yes, the twin girls have arrived. Here's a few quick pics with bad lighting but better ones to come. The Velodyne logo is an actual up close shot I took in the dark.

I have made a bit of an oversight though. It's one of those kinda things that is so obvious you just don't see it.

Since I run a the McIntosh MCD/MDA 1000 straight to the amps, I of course have to preamp. Since I have no analog inputs into the DAC I can do very little manual adjusting with the Velodyne software. I'm able to do an auto adjust since that option takes place within the sub on its own. But I am able to change the crossover from the default 80hz down to 40hz but that's it. However, it does help. But as for measured adjustments of volume and frequency hills and valleys as well as a multitude of other options, I'll have to wait a few days.

So, I'm off to find a very cheap preamp to have around for configuration purposes. It will take me a few days to get my hands on one but no worries. I will have one soon enough.

More pics and a few observations on the way. Stay tuned.

intersting stuff jessie. Wondering indeed how you will do the setup and hookup wiht a couple of the DDs. Wondering why you say you cannot do much more than manual adjusting on the DD with the setup you have and why exactly you need another pre for config purposes ?

[Nick M]

Jesse - Looking great! If you get a chance, could you post some more pics of the DD10's, perhaps a rear shot of one?

Can't wait to hear more about the setup! :T

[Jesse111]

intersting stuff jessie. Wondering indeed how you will do the setup and hookup wiht a couple of the DDs. Wondering why you say you cannot do much more than manual adjusting on the DD with the setup you have and why exactly you need another pre for config purposes ?

Good question,

In fact it is possible to do more manual adjusting but without a left and right analog "input" for the sub "EQ output", the sub software will not function. So, any manual adjustments would be done completly by ear without any visible measurement from the sweep tone software. Without the use of the software one would be defeating a primary purpose of the DD series.

In other words, the "EQ out" on the DD series acts like a CD player connecting to analog "audio inputs" sending a frequency sweep to the preamp in analog then the preamp sends the signal back out to the main amps and the sub so adjustments can be made for seemless integration.

The MDA is only a DAC. No analog input only PCM digital. I have an old yamaha reciever I'm going to attemp to use today. Should have adjustment cababilitie in a few hours.

[Nick M]

Thats a bummer... :x

Any full pics of the sub from the back? I'd like to see how big they are from the rear.

Hope you get that preamp! I can't wait to see what you generate for a low frequency response in your room! I'm in a debate now with myself over the DD-10's and DD-12's. Still squirreling away the cash for a pair (I'm a little over 1/2 way there). I need useable response to at least 18hz in my 1700 cubic foot room.

[Jesse111]

Thats a bummer... :x

Any full pics of the sub from the back? I'd like to see how big they are from the rear.

Hope you get that preamp! I can't wait to see what you generate for a low frequency response in your room! I'm in a debate now with myself over the DD-10's and DD-12's. Still squirreling away the cash for a pair (I'm a little over 1/2 way there). I need useable response to at least 18hz in my 1700 cubic foot room.

Pics on the way good buddy. Continue to stash the cash becasuse after this thread is done I got a feeling you're going to be chomping at the bit for some Velodynes. Even without any serious EQ tweaking, I have found that when the DD 10's are at full servo control ( 8 ), the sub frequency below 40hz is so seemless that I'm going to take a few extra days to analize it to make sure of what I'm (not) hearing. My first impression is that the subs have no presense at full servo control and show an absolutely incredible abilty to integrate. I was not able to achieve that same feeling with the 18's. However, this is premature so I will be doing a lot of A/B tests as well as some comparisons with 1 vs 2 subs.

We will definately discuss a bit later the possible pros and cons on 12's vs 10's. That will be interesting and may make for good information. Since I owned the 18's a few months ago I'll be able to comment a bit on them.

Man, I love this stuff. :T

[alebonau]

Good question,

In fact it is possible to do more manual adjusting but without a left and right analog "input" for the sub "EQ output", the sub software will not function. So, any manual adjustments would be done completly by ear without any visible measurement from the sweep tone software. Without the use of the software one would be defeating a primary purpose of the DD series.

In other words, the "EQ out" on the DD series acts like a CD player connecting to analog "audio inputs" sending a frequency sweep to the preamp in analog then the preamp sends the signal back out to the main amps and the sub so adjustments can be made for seemless integration.

The MDA is only a DAC. No analog input only PCM digital. I have an old yamaha reciever I'm going to attemp to use today. Should have adjustment cababilitie in a few hours.

understand that, got a DD as well. not fully up with the MAC stuff so not sure of capabilities there, pre-summed you had a mac pre that you could run inot with the eqout signal.

I have a combined ht & 2ch system. am running the EQ out to my avr that I use just to provide the DD a bass signal and use the avr to set level. When running 2ch I run pre-out of my 2ch pwr amp to the avr that drives the DD. No doubt your planning to do the same with the old yamaha ?

[Nick M]

Where are those pictures?! :lol:

[Jesse111]

Well, I must say it has been quite fun playing with the DD 10's. The first pic is of the left sub before any adjustment. The second pic is after. The third pic is the right sub after tweaking. The next pic shows the mic right about where my ears are and the last pic is just showing the mess. Velodyne software is amazing.

I found the DD 10's to integrate nicely with the 800D. As compared to the Sunfire they are more subtle. There is a sense of accuracy that feels more natural, more relaxing. It is a magnificent enhancement that really has to be heard. I say enhancement and not addition because the Velo did a superb job of working hard behind the scenes never upstaging the mains.

As for dual vs. single, I'd have to say it really depends on your room and speakers. As for me, a single ten did not rise to the occasion for my needs. With both subs tuned in I just felt a better ambience around the stage.

I will have to admit that the 10's may not be quite enough for my room. At first I didn't detect it but after awhile I felt I could sense the slightest bit of strain playing certain choices of some music at the volumes and settings that I like. But still, crossed over at 40hz I find the DD 10's to do an excellent job of integration. I would wrather have the 10's over the 18's but I think my optimum size may be the 12 or 15. So I am going to sell the 10's and continue to look around. I'm also going to have a look at the JL Audio Fathom 113 that Robert W mentioned in the other post. I talked to a knowledgeable dealer and he's got me very interested. Features look very interesting. Line level XLR connections, room correction but kinda pricey. JL has been in the Sub business for ever as well so I suspect they may have something of real value to offer. I haven't ruled out Velodyne 12's or 15's and the 10's have shown me that what I'm trying to do can work. But the the smallest and the largest are just not the nirvana of subs I'm looking for. In a smaller room, I'd recommend the DD 10 in a second. It is a top performer. The best I could imagine for the money.

This is pretty much what I went through before finding the 800D and McIntosh. Lot's of purchases and sales before hitting the bullseye. Even within manufacturers themselves there are large differences. For instance I knew the McIntosh 201 CD player was great but not the end of the road for me. But the second I put the MCD/MDA 1000 in my sytem. My source gear road had ended. So, I think for a room my size. Either the DD 12 or 15 will be the one. But the JL is interesting indeed.

[Nick M]

Jesse - Couple more things you should try...

Unplug the signal cables to the subs, and run the tone sweep with just the 800D's using the sub mic to pick up their response. This will give you an idea of the frequency response of just your mains in your room.

Next, leave the mains powered on as well as the subs while running the subs. You want to include their low end response with the subs, otherwise when you turn your mains on they will vastly change the response curve. You want to run everything and then adjust the subs. Not sure if I said that right. In other words, you want both your mains and the subs running while you do the sweep. This will give you the combined frequency response to which you then adjust the subs.

I had a feeling you would prefer the 12's. I think thats what I'll be going with for my setup.

Oh, and I want pictures of the DD10's! Let's see those profile shots! :lol:

[Nick M]

Another tip...

Don't boost any of the frequencies. Use all cuts, and then turn the sub's gain up. Check the response again. If you still have dips, make more cuts to even everything, turn the gain up, and then check again. Remember that you're not gonna' get much below 20Hz with sealed 10" subs in a room your size, especially servo controlled units that are surgical like the Velos'.

We (or at least I) want more pics of your beautiful new toys! :T :lol:

[Jesse111]

You are correct about the combined bass response curve. I cheated a bit there since I was anxious to get the Velodynes up and running. However, after toying around with all these subs I found a new placement which is not next to the mains but still addresses the time delay issue that I have decided is a major concern for me. Next to the wall about a 3rd of the way in. In the pic it's the Sunfire's turn to show its stuff. The Velo is not active.

The thing is, I believe I may actually prefer the Sunfires over the DD 10's in this new spot. The Sunfires offer a bit more authority which is very important for my hard rock collection. The Sunfire amp is just so powerful that when I put them back in the sytem I found myself missing them a bit. I can actually just turn them off for my Jazz. Still working on this thing but I think the Sunfires are just a bit underated, at least for my ears. No doubt the Velo's intagrate well. Perhaps even better than the Sunfire. But I think the 12 or 15's might have been a better way to go. It's as if both manufacturers off a weakness and a strength. Oh these frustrating trade-offs!

More pics :T

[Nick M]

I definetly prefer precision over power. The Velo's software is absolutely essential for my needs. I have dips/peaks in my room similar to yours (indicated in your initial response curve). Listening to just my Signature S4's right now (which dig down into the upper 40's) I can hear the room bloat around 60Hz with drums which annoys the piss out of me with some tracks. I may eventually sell my S4's and go with S2's (which sound similar just with less extension) and use twin Velos with their EQ's to counteract those peaks. Otherwise I'm going to be forced into purchasing an EQ for my mains. It would be nice if I had a 30'x30' acoustically treated room, but alas I do not...

[Nick M]

Those are absolutely perfect photos Jesse, I appreciate them very much. Gives me something to drool over... :lol:

I'm leaning towards the DD12's, but haven't decided 100%. I want the 12's more for their infrasonic extension than any need for greater SPL or headroom in the upper ranges. Then again, I found the headroom of dual 12's essential in my home theater to reduce the distortion of overdriven 10's.

I've auditioned the 12 before and loved it.

EDIT: Eliminating the boost you gave the 10's below 20Hz is going to really take a lot of stress off from it, making it sound even more transparent. But to get those deep infrasonics in a room your size you need a bigger piston(s) or greater cone excursion (which usually means less clarity and transparency). It's definetly a trade off.

[alebonau]

jesse jsut lookign at your graphs you posted. I notiuce you have jsut smoothed the velo DD response. Have a read of hte velo manual. Wondering if you followed the procedure there where
1. check mains response, check where it rolls off and also if there are any dips or bumps etc this gives an idea about xover points and will assit too in placement of the mains for best bass response.
2. then check the sub response note any bumps and dips etc which you can use to find th e best position of the sub for bass response - which you seem to have done and then .

3. Following that check the combined sub and mains system response - this is the most important after all this is what you will be hearing if you have xover or phase not right etc this is where'll you'll see it and this is when velo suggest to use eq.

wondering if you have done steps 1 & 3 these are critical to achiving the best end result in my opinion and to integrate the mains in with the subs.

Additionally to the manual itself this review from stereophile lists pretty well the recommend method

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/604velodyne/

- here done for the quad esl's but same method as in the manual and worked for my mains aswell

[Hallett]

Thanks Jesse for the great info i have one DD-12 might need another
one. keep us posted.

[chinets]

Congrats Jesse 111!!
ENJOY those beauties!!
Cheers

[Robert W]

Jesse, just read through this. I've been on the road for business and had some down time in the hotel. I'm so glad that some one else is doing the leg work on this stuff! Thanks for the time and effort! Seriously though, please keep us posted if you get the 12', 15's or JL Fathoms as I'm very curious. Should be interesting.

Cheers.