Ok....how do we expand soundstage and increase depth???

[Boombox]

Ok.......here's the deal...

So I've got the good speakers, cd player, pre-amp, power-amp, respectable interconnects and speaker cable...... :T

Speakers are now standing in their positions for 2-3 weeks and are moved 1cm per day to the front, to the back, left, right,.....etc., toe-in, 1degree here, two degrees there.....

YET....my soundstage is still very narrow.....+.....I have no depth in the music...."Good" imaging under these conditions......vocals take centre stage more often than not, with the guitar, piano following, depending on who has the lead during the track.....but as soon as we play together, we are all cluttered in the centre... :roll:

My first bet is the pre-amp......RC1070.........not very good.....

any other opinions....???.... :lurk:

Equipment:
RCD02 cdp;
RC1070;
RB1070;
Boston VR2 (93dB) - bi-wired;
IXOS speaker cable;
Transparent interconnects

Room: See attachment....

I've added a small curve to illustrate the bass response of the room.....I am working on room acoustics.....bass traps, etc,

[alebonau]

could be source as well. I've heard a dac/CD going into a system helping soundstage a plenty as with using a better pre. whats the rest of your system ?. maybe post a pic of the room, a drawing of the layout showing where you have speakers other stuff listening position.

Another important question, have you heard better soundstage with the same material on another system ? could be the material some stuff just not recorded well.

[grit]

Also could simply be the acoustics of the room.

[gianni]

I would also look at room acoustics and speaker setup. Your rc-1070 is arguably a better preamp than what my RSX-1055 receiver will do in 2 ch mode (thru multi-inputs) and my 1055 does a fairly nice job with soundstage and reasonable depth as well. Sure you can do better than the rc-1070 as far as preamps go but it should do a throw a reasonable sound stage.

[Amfibius]

I agree with the others - probably speaker / room acoustics. Check and triple check your connections and make sure you are not running your speakers out of phase.

Then try toe-ing your speakers out a little. Too much toe-in = narrow soundstage. Too much toe-out = each speaker is heard as a seperate source with a "hole" in the middle ("inverted rainbow effect").

On my system, putting my speakers too close to the back wall will cause the soundstage to collapse. I have pulled them as far forward as the Minister of the Interior allows and we've reached a suitable compromise

Once you have done all that, then maybe you could think about your electronics. What are you using?

[Boombox]

toe-in is about 1-3 degrees towards the centre listening position....

[Briz vegas]

Soundstage certainly varies with material. My system can sound 2 dimensional with lots of my CDs, then I play a well recorded CD (or even 2 channel DVD) and the 3 dimensional image is very impressive, just like the musicians are in my room. If only some of the recording engineers out there cared just a little bit more about their work.

I find that for best depth you need to have your speakers a reasonable distance from the rear wall (as much as the room will practically allow) but also important is what you have between your speakers. For two channel listening I remove my centre speaker, which means there is nothing between my tweeters and midrange (I have a lowish rack which needs to stay put). This makes the central image less forward and creates the apparent depth to the sound. If you speakers are either side of a large entertainment unit this could be the problem.

[Bob]

Your room is fairly narrow, which is going to mean your soundstage is also going to be narrow.

It looks to me that your speakers could come out more from the front wall. Try placing them so if you measure them from the ceter of the woofer, they are each 2 1/2 feet from the side walls and 4 feet from the front wall. The front wall is the one behind the speakers. The measurements are taken from the front of the speakers.

Start with no toe in. Although, because of the close side walls, I'm thinking that they need to be toed in about 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

Also, you don't say where your sitting position is. Again, measureing from the center of the sub woofer, try sitting about 6 feet away.

[Boombox]

Your room is fairly narrow, which is going to mean your soundstage is also going to be narrow.

This was a strong concern, and might be the biggest contributing factor to my narrow soundstage.....

It looks to me that your speakers could come out more from the front wall.

Not really....maybe, 1ft....This I've done, and it flattened out my bass response more evenly in the room which was a step in the right direction, but the speaker stood flat in front of my cd tray....bummer...

Start with no toe in. Although, because of the close side walls, I'm thinking that they need to be toed in about 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

With no toe-in, I'm losing imaging....to quite a large degree, but my soundstage did widen somewhat.....the 1/2 inch toe-in gave very good imaging, but then narrow and a 2-d soundstage....

try sitting about 6 feet away.

Yes, I sit ca. 6ft to 7 ft from the front of the speaker....also, there is nothing between the speakers; just empty space (apart from the air, that is)....

[Bob]

For what it's worth, I used the Cardas method of speaker placement to come up with the 4 foot from the wall.
I don't know your speakers, which is why I wasn't sure about toe in. Sounds like they are very directional with a small "sweet spot". So you had to give them more toe in.
Why is your cd player behind the speaker? Having something behind them is less than optimal. But, most home listening rooms are full of comprimises. Could be that with your speakers, electronics, and room constrictions, you have already found the best placement.
Forgive my ignorance but, is the R in all your components Rotel?

[Boombox]

For what it's worth, I used the Cardas method of speaker placement to come up with the 4 foot from the wall.
I don't know your speakers, which is why I wasn't sure about toe in. Sounds like they are very directional with a small "sweet spot". So you had to give them more toe in.
Why is your cd player behind the speaker? Having something behind them is less than optimal. But, most home listening rooms are full of comprimises. Could be that with your speakers, electronics, and room constrictions, you have already found the best placement.
Forgive my ignorance but, is the R in all your components Rotel?

Yes, they are Rotels....

My equipment, I've placed against the left wall to the left of my left speaker, due to room constrictions. Placing them in the middle, will have direct sunlight beaming down on them when I open the curtains for light and fresh air which is behind the speakers.....so when I move my speakers forward, they stand right in front of my equipment.

I must admit, that my speakers perform 10x better with movies (in stereo) than with hi-fi.....vocals are excellently placed in the middle and for movies the "sweet spot" is very big, allowing one to be slightly to the left or right of the screen. They have dedicated 4'' mid-range drivers. I do agree with you that they are very directional in stereo (with music that is), and my belief is that the mid-range driver contributes significantly to this property...

I think Bob, that the narrow room is limiting the soundstage.....

[Andrew M Ward]

Also could simply be the acoustics of the room.

The Room ~ The Room ~ The Room!!!!
it's the room (Always)

work backwards from there... otherwise suffer the BS of the forum...

[Briz vegas]

You know it might be the room

My room is 6.5m by 3.7m so it is a bit wider than yours. That little bit of extra space allows me to orient my system across the room. As far as sound stage and depth are concerned it works great.

[Andrew M Ward]

You know it might be the room

My room is 6.5m by 3.7m so it is a bit wider than yours. That little bit of extra space allows me to orient my system across the room. As far as sound stage and depth are concerned it works great.

That's an impressive cat !

[Boombox]

I'd say, very privilaged cat.....

Nice place to park off...

[tboooe]

it is just a guess and I may be totally off base but it may be the room?? Sorry I could not resist.

Seriously, I am in the process of adding room treatments (bass traps and absorbers for first reflection point). I find my soundstage width is most affected by the room treatments.

[Briz vegas]

I'd say, very privilaged cat.....

Nice place to park off...

That reminds me of the old joke "well it all started as a pimple on his butt"