Do you toe in?

[tboooe]

Hi, as I was fiddling around with my speaker set up this weekend I discovered that I prefer virtually no toe in. I find that by having no toe in my soundstage greatly expanded horizontally. Separation between the instruments was also much better. An unexpected affect was the increase in the soundstage depth. I have always toed in my speakers so the tweeters point to a position 6ft behind me. I have also read a lot of articles that state that on axis speaker positioning is better. In fact, those articles recommend pointing the tweeters directly at your ears. When I do this, I find the soundstage totally collapses and I lose all instrument separation.

So, I am curious if people toe in the their speakers and if so, by how much?

[audiophied]

toe in

I voted yes for toe in. I agree with the soundstage being wider and better seperation of instruments without toe in... but tboooe wasn't imaging effected when you did this?

[Kal Rubinson]

The only speakers that require absolutely no toe-in are those with such a piercing on-axis HF that one must do it defensively. That said, the degree(s) of toe-in widely vary with the radiation patterns of the speaker and the room acoustics.

Kal

[tboooe]

I voted yes for toe in. I agree with the soundstage being wider and better seperation of instruments without toe in... but tboooe wasn't imaging effected when you did this?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by imaging...

[RebelMan]

When I do this, I find the soundstage totally collapses and I lose all instrument separation.

So, I am curious if people toe in the their speakers and if so, by how much?

Interesting tboooe. I find imaging and soundstaging to snap into focus with toe-in, but the amount of toe will depend on your seating position relative to the speakers and the reflection patterns in the room. Given that my 803S were about 7.5 feet apart and I sat about 12 feet back (from the speakers) I toed-in around 10 degrees from the horizontal axis. I haven't experimented with my 800D much yet, as you know why, but I am guessing that they were also toed-in somewhere between 5 and 10 degrees.

I think you are noticing a more spacious soundstage with little to no toe because of the reflected energy you are hearing in your room. Less toe-in a high energy 13 foot wide room (which I believe you are in) may be creating a more open soundstage and the feeling of greater envelopment but image specificity and a well defined soundstage will suffer.

[tboooe]

Rebelman...my speakers are only 7ft apart. Maybe that is why it does not appear I need toe in? I am by no means an expert but isnt toe in only necessary if the speakers are spaced too far apart and toe in helps to refocus the center image?

As for my room, I think I am getting better image specificity and more well defined placement of instruments. Huh? Maybe all of this will change once I install my room treatments but for now, my system has never sounded as good.

[WI Rotel]

Only camel toes 8O :twisted:

[RebelMan]

If I remember correctly from another thread you adjusted your seating position from 10-11 feet to 7 feet. If your speakers are 7 feet apart (measured from tweeter to tweeter) then toe-in should be (more) between 20 and 30 degrees for balanced imaging and soundstaging. I suspect a distance of only 7 feet is not going to allow enough time for the first-order crossover drivers to coalesce. The delineation between instruments that you are detecting could be the result of this. Can you localize the radiation patterns coming from any of drivers? In other words, do you hear the speakers?

The distance the listener is from the L and R speaker and the distance between each speaker can be expressed in angular units or measurements. These distances can vary while the angles remain contant. Toe is the angular relationship that is offset from the perpendicular plane that intersects the horizontal plain of the speakers.

For example. If the speakers are spaced 7 feet apart and you are sitting 7 feet away the angle between you and either speaker is 30 degrees and if the speaker is facing forward the degree of toe is 0. The closer toe comes to the 30 degree separation, tighter focus of imaging and soundstaging will result. Vise-versa, the less toe-in or toe-out will loosen focus. The same results are achieved if the distances are all 10 feet or 15 feet and so on. Linear distances do not effect toe, but the angular relationships of distance do.

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
Generally I do but there are no hard and fast rules. There are too many variables to take into consideration. One of the things I like about B&W tweeters is that you usually can listen exactly on axis without danger of burning your ears out.

What Kal said I think is accurate. With many speakers one must choose between the image and overly aggresive highs.

Experimentation offers the only answers.

Sparky

[tboooe]

Ok...more experimentation (as my wife rolls her eyes!)...I am back to sitting so my head is 10ft away from each speaker. The speakers are now toed in about 5/8" measured as the difference between the position of the outside speaker edge relative to the inside speaker edge. I am not sure what this angle is. I am pretty darn satisfied with focus, soundstaging, etc. To my ears the focus is plenty tight. With this setup, I do hear as much sound radiating directly from my speakers as I did with more toe in. I thought with more toe in, and more on axis sound hitting your ears that the listener would detect even more sound coming directly from the speaker? To me it makes sense that if I want to make my speakers "disappear", I should use more off axis listening, this way, no direct sound is hitting my ears. Am I confused???

Given what I have heard from Kal and Rebelman, can I assume that you have your speakers aimed directly at your ears? That seems like a lot of toe in to me but hey I am just a novice....

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
No I don't think you are confused but you might be having terminology issues.
If the speakers are pointed at you, even if off axis, the sound you are hearing is direct. What happens is the tweeters are at their loudest when listened to perfectly on axis. As you move away from that angle (0 degrees) the tweeter response starts to reduce. All tweeters behave this way.

It is a mark of excellence if the tweeter maintains its output over a wider angle. This is the goal of every speaker designer. But all tweeters exhibit this characteristic.

At any angle the sound you hear is a mixture of direct sound from the tweeter and delayed indirect sound that arrives at your ears after being reflected at least once by the room. At the on axis angle, the ratio of direct to indirect sound is dominated by the direct. As you move away from the 0 degree axis angle the direct output from the tweeter that arrives at your ears is reduced. Thus, the ratio of direct to indirect will change as you move from the 0 degree angle.

For this reason, the image is affected by the tweeter angle. Usually, the image becomes more diffuse and less focused as you move away the perfect axis. However, with many tweeters, the on axis response is overwhelming and way too bright. So, while the perfect angle may produce the best image, one must move away from the perfect image angle in order to achieve an acceptable tonal balance. It’s an unhappy compromise that is best avoided.

Sparky

[tboooe]

Thanks Karma. So let me get this straight...on axis means when the tweeters are pointed anywhere at your ear? Sorry, I am a bit confused...so what does off axis mean? Please be gentle with me....

[Jesse111]

I don't think you are confused at all as regards what you are hearing. It's been my experience that the combination of distances, toe-in and room acoustics all work together. With your speakers only 7 feet apart, I can fully understand why no toe-in gives you the best results because even with no toe in the tweets can still perform well because of their proximity. The sound stage will only be so big at 7 feet so go with the setting that widens it the most. The imaging will most likely remain defined very nicely because of the close proximity of the speakers to each other (7 feet).

No toe in with speakers 12.5 feet apart like mine would destroy the stage and imaging. A hole in the center would probably result. Try all combinations but the farther apart they are the more toe in you will need and visa versa in most cases. That has been my experience but in the end, just go with what sounds best to you. No hard and fast rules.

Simply put, off Axis is when the speakers are not pointed at you.

[Jesse111]

If you have a good image, an acoustic guitar solo will give the allusion of such. With poor imaging the guitar may appear like it's coming from no particular spot and may sound fairly good but you can't invision the actual artist playing the instrument like in real life. Poor imaging will make it impossible to truly define the exact point and size of the instrument or perhaps a singers voice. Imaging makes the stage realistic. A poor image may make a singers mouth appear 2 feet wide and things such as this.

[Kal Rubinson]

Given what I have heard from Kal and Rebelman, can I assume that you have your speakers aimed directly at your ears? That seems like a lot of toe in to me but hey I am just a novice....

Well, that depends on how far away you sit. My listening distance is 12+ feet, depending on the speaker.

Kal

[Eliav]

tboooe
i have made some considerable experiments with toe in and out with my 803s, I have also been getting similar results from my 802d.
To begin with, I follow the basic rule of keeping my sitting position at a distance that equals the distance between my speakers ( 6.7' in my room). based on my room dimensions, my speakers are 6.7' away from the front wall and 4' from the side walls.
I marked my ears level on my couch. i then go behind each tweeter and toe the speaker so that the left tweeter is looking directly 1' to the side of my left ear position mark, same for the right side. more toe in will result in narrower soundstage, and slightly deeper one. slight toe out (1.5' away from each ear) will rsult in wide yet superficial sound stage. This is obviously true in MY listening room which is heavily damped with acoustic traps and has very minimal echo.

Regards
Eliav

[RebelMan]

I am back to sitting so my head is 10ft away from each speaker. The speakers are now toed in about 5/8" measured as the difference between the position of the outside speaker edge relative to the inside speaker edge. I am not sure what this angle is.

It's about 2.5 degrees. FWIW, Your angular position is about 20.5 degrees, with 2.5 degrees of toe-in the tweeter is positioned about 18.0 degrees off-axis with respect to your listening position.

I am pretty darn satisfied with focus, soundstaging, etc. To my ears the focus is plenty tight. With this setup, I do hear as much sound radiating directly from my speakers as I did with more toe in. I thought with more toe in, and more on axis sound hitting your ears that the listener would detect even more sound coming directly from the speaker? To me it makes sense that if I want to make my speakers "disappear", I should use more off axis listening, this way, no direct sound is hitting my ears. Am I confused???

Remember, it's your brain that is going to create the illusion of a three-dimensional soundscape. The soundwaves your ears pick up are going to feed your brain the information it needs to create this image. Delayed secondary, tertiary (and so forth) soundwaves will confuse your brain. The image it tries to create in your mind will be scewed causing all sorts of image distortions like the ability to localize the speakers. The acoustics of the room are partially to blame, but not toe. Toe, however, greatly impacts the resolution and scale of the image.

Have you ever worn a decent set of headphones? Although, they are somewhat deficient at reproducing a life-size soundstage and they lack the dynamics that full-range loudspeakers can produce they can deliver some of the most realistic imaging possible rivaling some of the best loudspeakers in the world. What you hear in this case is not the headphone but what you see is the musical image that your brain creates with absolute certainty. Toe, in this case, is perfectly on-axis.

[ChrisssB]

If undertsand it well, your speakers have a dispersion thats over 60 o within 2dB of reference response. Your speakers 7 feet apart and your sitting about 10 away. As you can see your are in the sweetspot allready. what you can do by toeing in, is to fine tune (and that can be done only by your ears cause other factors -ex the room- also take place) the sound in that 2 db range. I would recommend to get a fine recording, and use your ears and also your wifes 2!!! You'll be amazed how well women hear!

I hope this helps
regards Chriss

[chinets]

It all depends on the size of the room and your sitting position for Toe IN!!!!!
Toe In is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!! But it all depends on your set up and your ears for soundstage and depth!!!
Ciao Amigos!!!!!!

[tboooe]

If undertsand it well, your speakers have a dispersion thats over 60 o within 2dB of reference response. Your speakers 7 feet apart and your sitting about 10 away. As you can see your are in the sweetspot allready. what you can do by toeing in, is to fine tune (and that can be done only by your ears cause other factors -ex the room- also take place) the sound in that 2 db range. I would recommend to get a fine recording, and use your ears and also your wifes 2!!! You'll be amazed how well women hear!

I hope this helps
regards Chriss

WOW!!! Thanks for this...

[tboooe]

"Disappearing" speakers

Hi, for those of you who mentioned that your speakers "Disappear" I have a question. What do you mean by "disappear"? I have never heard a setup where I do not hear some part of the song radiating from the speakers. It depends on how the song was mixed and recorded but I can always tell that the sound is coming from the speaker location. These systems (including my own) have a very nice center "phantom" image, nice placement of instruments across the soundstage (depending on the recording). BUT there are still parts of the song where is it very clear that the sound is coming from the speaker. I am not saying that is all I hear but I do hear it. I thought that was due to how the song was mixed.

Maybe I am not understanding what is meant by "disappear". Can someone please explain this to me? If disappear means that the sound and that particular part of the song (depening on the recording) seems to emanate from across the horizontal soundstage, including where the speakers are then I can say in my system my speakers disappear. I think that if I hear sound coming from a particular speaker in the above described scenario then the mixer wanted it that way. For example, when listening to Stan Getz "Bossas and Ballads: The Lost Sessions" track #1, I hear his saxophone very well defined in the middle of the soundstage. I hear the drums slightly to the left of center and somewhat behind where I would image Stan standing. I also hear the piano portion of the song coming directly from the right speaker. So in this case, I have what appears to be a good soundstage but I can still tell some sounds are coming from my speakers. Is this bad? Playing around with various toe in never changes this. All that changes is the sensation of how much to the right the piano sound seems to come from.

If disappearing means that the listener can never tell that any part of the song is coming from a particular speaker then I have never heard a system that does this.

Please explain. Am I not getting the most out of my system? Have I only heard poorly set up systems my whole life?

[Jesse111]

Here's my take on the disappering act.

You are correct. If the production sends the music out of one speaker without any stereo mixed in, the music will certainly appear to be coming from that speaker thus bringing attention to the actual speaker. Some production is done that way on purpose for effect. What we're talking about is pretty much what you described. When a recording with good sound stage production is played, the speakers seem disappear. But the source must be produced that way. However, some systems and/or speakers just do a better job of staging and imaging than others thus "disappearing" better. Becasue of many source recodings it's not ever going to be 100% of the time with any system. But with well produced recordings and a good system, it is magnificent.

[DM3000 Owner]

Hi, for those of you who mentioned that your speakers "Disappear" I have a question. What do you mean by "disappear"? I have never heard a setup where I do not hear some part of the song radiating from the speakers. It depends on how the song was mixed and recorded but I can always tell that the sound is coming from the speaker location. These systems (including my own) have a very nice center "phantom" image, nice placement of instruments across the soundstage (depending on the recording). BUT there are still parts of the song where is it very clear that the sound is coming from the speaker. I am not saying that is all I hear but I do hear it. I thought that was due to how the song was mixed.

Maybe I am not understanding what is meant by "disappear". Can someone please explain this to me? If disappear means that the sound and that particular part of the song (depening on the recording) seems to emanate from across the horizontal soundstage, including where the speakers are then I can say in my system my speakers disappear. I think that if I hear sound coming from a particular speaker in the above described scenario then the mixer wanted it that way. For example, when listening to Stan Getz "Bossas and Ballads: The Lost Sessions" track #1, I hear his saxophone very well defined in the middle of the soundstage. I hear the drums slightly to the left of center and somewhat behind where I would image Stan standing. I also hear the piano portion of the song coming directly from the right speaker. So in this case, I have what appears to be a good soundstage but I can still tell some sounds are coming from my speakers. Is this bad? Playing around with various toe in never changes this. All that changes is the sensation of how much to the right the piano sound seems to come from.

If disappearing means that the listener can never tell that any part of the song is coming from a particular speaker then I have never heard a system that does this.

Please explain. Am I not getting the most out of my system? Have I only heard poorly set up systems my whole life?

If you have a recording where none of the instruments or voices are comming from the speakers they shoudl disappear. My B&W's and my K Horns both do this. Try a recording that has a solo singer and maybe a guitar. You will only hear sound comming from between the speakers but noting from the speaker locations.

A lot of recordings have a very wide soundstage and you can hear sound from beyond the speakers but not from the speakers. For some reason Crosby Still Nash and Young's "So Far" is sticking out in my mind. try it. I cannot locate the speakers at all, just a soundstage that is completely independent from the speakers.

Chris

[Pookie007]

I didn’t use any scientific means to come up with the amount of toe-in I have. I just closed my eyes and listened. I spent a day turning them in and out until I found what I liked best. The results are my speakers at 8 feet apart. They are 4 feet in from the side walls. My listening position is 8’ from the speakers and the speakers point to a spot about 6 feet behind my head.

[ChrisssB]

You've got a nice setup and I think you're getting the most of it! Personally when I say that my speakers "disapear", I mean that music sounds natural in my room and not just coming out of 2 boxes! Try to listen your system with a nice recording @ night with the lights out. You'll be amazed! And yes some part of the mix might come out from the direction of the speakers but still not sounding boxy or artificial.
Chriss

[RebelMan]

I didn’t use any scientific means to come up with the amount of toe-in I have. I just closed my eyes and listened. I spent a day turning them in and out until I found what I liked best. The results are my speakers at 8 feet apart. They are 4 feet in from the side walls. My listening position is 8’ from the speakers and the speakers point to a spot about 6 feet behind my head.

In a way your measurements are scientific. Your toe-in works out to be about 17 degrees. :B

[ChrisssB]

hehehe that's right rebelman! 17.189 degrees :T

[Birdy]

802 Placement

Hi guys,

Happy new owner of 802D I have a small deception about imaging....
Indeed, till now, most of the time I have the impression that everything is too big!!!! Voices and instruments.

My speakers are 3.9m apart, ears 3.4m from each tweeters, and ears 2.9m from the line joining the tweeters.

Initially speakers were toed in almost directly to my ears; today there is no toe in. Obviously this give me a better soundstage, especially for classical music
Do you suggest toe in?

Or is it related to break in ?

Or related to my accoustic?

Or as BW brochure says do my ears have to become accustomized to the "B&W sound".... :T

Birdy

[PavelL]

Or as BW brochure says do my ears have to become accustomized to the "B&W sound".... :T

Birdy

the brochure has some pictures too - the wider apart you place your speakers the bigger the images produced.

[Birdy]

the brochure has some pictures too - the wider apart you place your speakers the bigger the images produced.

True but they don't give any reference

[Joey_V]

Though I dont have BW, I have auditioned the 802D on Classe/Ayre gear... and I preferred FULL toe in. On my Martin Logan Summits, I also prefer full toe in.

Joey

[tboooe]

joey_v, what do you mean my FULL toe in? Do you mean pointed directly at your ear? I have others who toe in so much that the tweeters actually meet at a point in front of the listener. I think Audio Physic recommends this if you want to have a wide "Sweet spot", for example multiple positions on a couch vs a single sweet spot.

[Kal Rubinson]

joey_v, what do you mean my FULL toe in? Do you mean pointed directly at your ear? I have others who toe in so much that the tweeters actually meet at a point in front of the listener. I think Audio Physic recommends this if you want to have a wide "Sweet spot", for example multiple positions on a couch vs a single sweet spot.

That is often called a Blumlein arrangement after the guy who recommended it and was one of the developers of stereo in theory and practice. One of the advantages of the Blumlein setup is that, if you move left or right from the exact center listening position, you move physically closer to one speaker and yet closer to the radiation axis of the other. That's an inbuilt compensatory situation!

Kal

[tboooe]

WOW!!! thanks Kal...very good information to use to impress my audiophile buddies!

[Joey_V]

joey_v, what do you mean my FULL toe in? Do you mean pointed directly at your ear? I have others who toe in so much that the tweeters actually meet at a point in front of the listener. I think Audio Physic recommends this if you want to have a wide "Sweet spot", for example multiple positions on a couch vs a single sweet spot.

Full toe in for me means that the tweeter is almost facing my directly. Maybe not completely... maybe a little less toed in than that. I say that my preferred toe in is about 80% of full toe in.

Blumlein..? It's nice to have Kal around. :T

Joey

[Kal Rubinson]

Blumlein..? It's nice to have Kal around. :T
Joey

I should have been more explicit. Blumlein is when the axes of the speakers cross just in front of the listener.

Full toe-in? To me, that's 90deg when the speakers face each other. :W

Kal

[chinets]

Guess back from the dead ,that Toe In question!!! :roll:

Just Keep the Right toe In , :E and the Left toe out!!!!!.... :E 8O :rofl:

[Joey_V]

Just Keep the Right toe In , :E and the Left toe out!!!!!.... :E 8O :rofl:

Hahahaha!!! :lol:

[jim777]

I should have been more explicit. Blumlein is when the axes of the speakers cross just in front of the listener.

Full toe-in? To me, that's 90deg when the speakers face each other. :W

Kal

When I was a young teenager, I had my speakers facing each other and I would sit in between :B

[Lex]

toe the line, toe the line.