Computer based Music Server as source

[audiojunky]

Hi,

I was thinking of using my computer as a dedicated music server and was wondering if anyone here is using a computer as a source?

1) So what are the advantages/ disadvantages? I guess one might be the computer fan noise, right? Unless of course it is quite far away from the listening area.

2) What kind of software can you use to get high quality music? Will something like iTunes, using the lossless format, work?


Thanks!

[IntegrateMe]

Hi there;

I have basically used all the prominent music servers (Audio ReQuest, Escient, Axonix, Meda Systems) and while ReQuest is my favorite it has a rather loud fan as well!! Also, all the proprietary systems tend to be rather expensive (even for a dealer)

In the end I ended up going with a Dell XPS200 with Media Center and an external 300GB Maxtor hard drive.

I use my Crestron system to control the PC, and I find that it works very well.

The fan has some noise, but it isn't that bad. Overall, it is a great system and expansion is easy since you can always add more hard drives.

I used WMA lossless as my codec of choice, and as soon as I get get a Toshiba Gigabeat S-Seriers portable, I will be able to transfer all my music so that I can use it in the car.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Barry

[audiojunky]

Hi there;

I have basically used all the prominent music servers (Audio ReQuest, Escient, Axonix, Meda Systems) and while ReQuest is my favorite it has a rather loud fan as well!! Also, all the proprietary systems tend to be rather expensive (even for a dealer)

In the end I ended up going with a Dell XPS200 with Media Center and an external 300GB Maxtor hard drive.

I use my Crestron system to control the PC, and I find that it works very well.

Barry

Hi Barry - thanks for your comments. They were extremely helpful.

How much do these Crestron system controllers cost and how do they interface with the PC? Wirelessly? Also, you must be needing some sort of a software to control these right?

Is "Media Center" a software that you purchased along with your DELL? I plan to use my Dell computer as well but I guess I'll need to instal some sorta software right?

Thanks!!

[aud19]

A server/client system is likely your best route for low equipment sound levels. You can either get a smaller PC with minimal gear (hence minimal heat, hence minmal noise) or something like a Mac Mini or even go to something small and in wall like one of these systems:

http://www.netstreams.com/

[aud19]

Hey I just noticed they finally have their HD capable distribution system available too! :banana:

http://www.netstreams.com/ProdDesc.aspx?ID=42

[NonSense]

Audiojunky

You should be looking at silent PC's if you don't want the fan noise.

Either VIA, which makes a number of fanless ITX boards, or Pentium-M core PC's. If you are looking only for audio and use the on board video, you can be fan free. With the right choice of 2.5" Laptop HD, you can run almost silent. Several techniques for decoupling will help with further reducing the noise.

Not sure how good the analog output can be, but if you connect to an external DAC using the S/PDIF you should get good performance.

[aud19]

Asus also makes a very nice Nvidia 6600 256MB video card that's fanless and performs very well :T ( I own one )

[audioqueso]

Read my post here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=18289

[audiojunky]

Thanks for the thread audioqueso.

Love the thread JimmyNeutron built. It's just amazing!

I currently have the following Tascam USB audio interface:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-US122-USB-AudioMIDI-Interface?sku=240868

I believe it gives high quality audio output but the question is, will this compare with a good quality CD player like the ARCAM CD 73 or the Rotel RCD-1072?

[Bob]

I use a computer as one of my sources, Mac mini to a Wavelengh DAC. It has many advantages over a cd player. First as a transport, I don't know if even the most expensive high end transports can compete with a hard drive. A computer has the memory to buffer and reread tracks to ensure error-free rips. When a transport reads a disc, if there are any errors they are passed on to the DAC. Using a USB DAC there are no timing issues. Whereas, with a transport/DAC, the converter and its datastream source must be synchronized with one another through having the converter lock on to the word-clock signal contained in the datastream from the transport. With a computer you can make use of the shuffle feature which I like alot. I like being surprised as to what song comes up. Also, you can have video. I would say that the only limiting aspect of a computer as a source is the limited amount of USB DACs available, at the present. But, more will be coming to increase your choices as to how you want the source to sound. For a digital source I personally think that a computer and a USB DAC is the only way to go.
As to fan noise. I can't speak to that. When I was using my Mac portable I had no noise problems and same with the Mac Mini.
Still not the sound quality of vinyl but, makes up for it with high fun factor through the use of the shuffle feature, video, and making playlist. I have said it many times, CD players get a big zero from me on the fun factor scale. Except in a car, and even then, you should opt for a DVD player, not a CD player.

[alpina]

hi bob,

never thought of using our spare mac mini as a transport. Could operate it all wirelessly too.

so you need rca outs into dac to utilise external dac? how is your wired up?

hmmmn

julie

[Taito]

Check out slim devices squeezebox. Very happy with mine. Run it wirelessly from a laptop with an external 200GB hard drive. File type of choice is FLAC.

https://www.slimdevices.com

-Ben

[audiojunky]

Check out slim devices squeezebox. Very happy with mine. Run it wirelessly from a laptop with an external 200GB hard drive. File type of choice is FLAC.

https://www.slimdevices.com

-Ben

I was seriously looking into these devices but how is the quality compared to a mid-range dedicated CD player?

[audiojunky]

I use a computer as one of my sources, Mac mini to a Wavelengh DAC. ....

So essentially what you're saying is that using the right equipment, a computer can rival the quality of a high-end dedicated CD player?

[Taito]

Hi Audiojunky,

I've got the Squeezebox gen 3 (current model). While it has digital coax and optical out, I use analog out - don't have an external DAC.

Compared against my Rotel RCD-1072... The 1072 wins, but the differences are sutble. The 1072 has a slightly more refined/smoother sound while sounding bigger/fuller at the same time. However, the Squeezebox would be a very passable one-source solution (apart from when you get a new cd and want to play it straight away etc.) -clean and detailed. For parties or background music, it's fantastic.

Also, having thousands of songs that can be accessed instantly (vitrually no search time) is not to be underestimated.

Don't get me wrong, there are better sources out there, and probably better server solutions. The Squeezebox is not without a few minor quirks, but it works brilliantly 99.9% of the time.

Overall, considering what you get for what you pay, two thumbs up! It works well, it sounds good, has a big wow factor and looks fantastic.

Hope you find this helpful,
Ben

[JimmyNeutron]

Thanks for the thread audioqueso.

Love the thread JimmyNeutron built. It's just amazing!

I currently have the following Tascam USB audio interface:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-US122-USB-AudioMIDI-Interface?sku=240868

I believe it gives high quality audio output but the question is, will this compare with a good quality CD player like the ARCAM CD 73 or the Rotel RCD-1072?

Hello Audiojunky, you've got many, many choices on a computer music server and many more options on external non-HD servers. My recommendation is to figure out if you want to build one, buy one, or use a streamer. Media servers are so fun to mess around with I whole-j\heartily recommend starting from scratch and building your own. The experiences learned are invaluable. There are many free front ends that you can download and use as your front-end. Meedio is now 100% free, as well as the new Meedio driven Yahoo2Go.

Good luck!! JimmyNeutron

[Vinny]

Hello Audiojunky, you've got many, many choices on a computer music server and many more options on external non-HD servers. My recommendation is to figure out if you want to build one, buy one, or use a streamer. Media servers are so fun to mess around with I whole-j\heartily recommend starting from scratch and building your own. The experiences learned are invaluable. There are many free front ends that you can download and use as your front-end. Meedio is now 100% free, as well as the new Meedio driven Yahoo2Go.

Good luck!! JimmyNeutron

I don't think you can get Meedio for free anymore. They sold it to yahoo and closed the download part already :E

[IntegrateMe]

As you can see, everyone has their own interpretation of how a computer based media server should be put together, but as I see it, there are four basic elements.

1. The nature of the operating system
2. The nature of the storage mechanism
3. The nature of the sound card
4. The nature of the interface/control.

Over the last several years, the PC-based media server has primarily focused on items 2 and 3, which lead people to utilize "thin clients" which are basically stripped down PC's that aren't much more than a storage device with a network card and a sound card. This way, the device could run quietly and it could be accessed either via network, or by taking the SPDIF output of the card into your primary A/V system.

This has been a good solution, only it tended not to be very user friendly and since the thin client was only designed to be a dumping station for MP3/FLAC/WMA data, it didn't do much else.

With the advent of Windows Media Center, items 1 and 4 are being taken into account. The graphical user interface (GUI) for media center is very intutitive and it is becoming the de facto standard in media server management. Basically, Microsoft developed MCE as an alternative to the PC based music servers that everyone has been cobbling together on their own for some time.

While the fan issue remains an issue now, as the Media Center model expands, consumers will begin to see primary Media Centers and Media Center Extenders in which the extender may end up being much less noisy or completely noiseless. Companies are already beginning to build specialzed servers based on the MCE platform (see Inteset and Niveus as two prime examples).

Squeezebox is a great product (Axonix is now OEM'ing it as a part of their media max line), but it lacks the intuitve GUI and automation expansion of the MCE platform. Now, dont bash me for being a Microsoft fan-boy (I sell Crestron and AMX for a living) but I think that MCE is here to stay and it will only get better. Those who resist it rather than look for ways to embrace it will likely fail in the future.

All that being said however, MCE is still in its relative infancy. HP has incorporated Lifeware as a whole product line dedicated to constructing hardware around the MCE software suite, and that is one option to consider. Yet, if I wasn't paid to experiment with these things, then I would probably wait until MCE is a little more mature (and until the Vista/MCE pairing is launched) before buying a new machine with the specific intent of hosting a music library.

Barry

[ColoKurt]

I just ordered a Mac Mini Solo to do this job. I'll run the optical audio output into the DAC in my preamp, and will use my HDTV as a monitor. The Mac Mini now includes Front Row with a remote control, and you can buy a wireless key board and mouse. I think the sound quality can be as good as your DAC. Of course I will eventually need to buy an external drive, but that can wait for now.

Now if the damn stuff will just get here!

[alpina]

so how does one output from the mini to an external dac, using the mini as a transport ONLY?

cheers,

julie

[IntegrateMe]

Any PC/Thin Client's SPDIF (Optical of Coaxial Digital Output) will function as a transport that can be fed into an external DAC.

[audiojunky]

Any PC/Thin Client's SPDIF (Optical of Coaxial Digital Output) will function as a transport that can be fed into an external DAC.

What are some of the nice external DACs out there? And how much do they cost?

[JimmyNeutron]

I don't think you can get Meedio for free anymore. They sold it to yahoo and closed the download part already :E

True they sold their "intellectual property" to Yahoo and they did close down their download section BUT...... a quick google search for Meedio will bring up many places to download that last (and best) version of Meedio - ver 1.41. The lock code was removed by Meedio before they went to Yahoo so when you find a download you will not need to register it to make it work.

Jimmy

[grit]

The Benchmark DAC1 is typically cited as one of the best-sounding DACs at a reasonable price of about $1000.00. You can get read more about it at their website.

[JDH]

I'm using the Slim devices Squeezebox 3 with an external DAC ie. a benchmark DAC1. I really couldn't be happier, I can 't see myself going back to a stand alone CD after listerning to this combination.

Hi Audiojunky,

I've got the Squeezebox gen 3 (current model). While it has digital coax and optical out, I use analog out - don't have an external DAC.

Compared against my Rotel RCD-1072... The 1072 wins, but the differences are sutble. The 1072 has a slightly more refined/smoother sound while sounding bigger/fuller at the same time. However, the Squeezebox would be a very passable one-source solution (apart from when you get a new cd and want to play it straight away etc.) -clean and detailed. For parties or background music, it's fantastic.

Also, having thousands of songs that can be accessed instantly (vitrually no search time) is not to be underestimated.

Don't get me wrong, there are better sources out there, and probably better server solutions. The Squeezebox is not without a few minor quirks, but it works brilliantly 99.9% of the time.

Overall, considering what you get for what you pay, two thumbs up! It works well, it sounds good, has a big wow factor and looks fantastic.

Hope you find this helpful,
Ben

[Bob]

so how does one output from the mini to an external dac, using the mini as a transport ONLY?

cheers,

julie

You missed the most important part of my post. You want a USB DAC. It is the use of the USB connection that eliminates the potential timing issues and allows the computer to rival the most expensive transports on the market. If you use the Toslink method you have more DAC choices, which is a good arguement for using it, but, you have all the issues involved with optical cables and timing.
Hagerman makes a USB DAC called the Chime, you can get a 30 day in home trial with it. Also, Wavelength makes two USB DACs. One of which is the often touted Brick.

[aud19]

You missed the most important part of my post. You want a USB DAC. It is the use of the USB connection that eliminates the potential timing issues and allows the computer to rival the most expensive transports on the market. If you use the Toslink method you have more DAC choices, which is a good arguement for using it, but, you have all the issues involved with optical cables and timing.
Hagerman makes a USB DAC called the Chime, you can get a 30 day in home trial with it. Also, Wavelength makes two USB DACs. One of which is the often touted Brick.

The DAC1 has that problem pretty well sorted

[ColoKurt]

so how does one output from the mini to an external dac, using the mini as a transport ONLY?

cheers,

julie

My plan is to do it with this cable available from Apple. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....8.25.7.11.0.3)

I'll let you know in a couple of days if it works.

--Kurt

[JonMarsh]

The DAC1 has that problem pretty well sorted

I'll say. Think:




Plus...





With the combination of iTunes and Front Row as the player/controller, it doesn't get much easier.

Sterephile recorded stunningly low jitter numbers using just toslink from a PC sound card on the DAC1.


Rip with Apple Lossless and store on a Firewire 250 GB external drive, then copy to the system I want to use for playback.

Picked up an Apple mini-toslink to standard toslink for the digital connection.

[alpina]

My plan is to do it with this cable available from Apple. (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....8.25.7.11.0.3)

I'll let you know in a couple of days if it works.

--Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Link no good

Julie

[ColoKurt]

Hi Kurt,

Link no good

Julie

Hey Julie,

Sorry for the bad link. The product is "Belkin PureAV Digital Optical Audio Cable with Mini-Toslink Adapter". You can find it by going to the Apple Store and searching for Toslink.

--Kurt

[IntegrateMe]

I guess I basically have the PC version of the afore mentioned system.

I use a Maxtor 300GB firewire drive as the dumping point, the Windows Media Center PC as the GUI and my Anthem AVM30 (Soon to be AVM50) as the DAC.

Now granted, I can't attest to the quality of the Anthem's DAC versus say the Benchmark DAC, but in all honesty ease of use is more important than ultimate sound quality. Since the source material is all WMA lossless, the intent is to make the music managable. If I'm looking for ultimate performance, I'll go grab the disc out of the case and use my Rotel RCC-1055 or Denon 3910.

I think this really boils down to an issue of Mac vs. PC.

Great thread so far!

[alpina]

does processing speed and ram make a big difference here?

i would love to integrate a mac mini into our setup with a wireless keyboard and mouse. just wondering if i should go intel model or whether g4 model will do? also, will internal hd be ok (assuming capacity is ok) or do i need a quicker drive?

cheers,

julie

[Bob]

The G4 is all you need and you don't need more RAM than comes with the "stock" computer.
Hovland has announced that it will be coming out with a USB DAC which increases the choices for those that want to maximize their music quality by avoiding the Toslink connection.

Good info here before starting a computer based music server as a source:http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/usbdac.html

And here: http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/905listen/

Here you will find a very interesting, and long, thread about the various methods of connecting your DAC, USB, Firewire, SPDIF. You can see there are many opinions. The names with a (M) after them means that they are manufacturers, and these are guys that have actually done the mathmatics, not just giving uninformed opinions. It is worth reading through all the questions and answers to this thread:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/12693.html

[ColoKurt]

does processing speed and ram make a big difference here?

i would love to integrate a mac mini into our setup with a wireless keyboard and mouse. just wondering if i should go intel model or whether g4 model will do? also, will internal hd be ok (assuming capacity is ok) or do i need a quicker drive?

cheers,

julie

The internal drive will be fine speed-wise for playing music. I also agree that you don't need more processor speed, but I don't like to skimp on RAM so I upgraded to 1GB.

Are you planning on using your TV as a monitor? If so, my understanding is that the text quality is not so great unless you have an HDTV, and if you have an older model HDTV you may need to buy a transcoder (~$100) to get an HD-quality video signal out of the Mac and into your TV.

I should be picking up my equipment today. Woohoo!

[JonMarsh]

does processing speed and ram make a big difference here?

i would love to integrate a mac mini into our setup with a wireless keyboard and mouse. just wondering if i should go intel model or whether g4 model will do? also, will internal hd be ok (assuming capacity is ok) or do i need a quicker drive?

cheers,

julie

The Intel model has a true digital audio out built in to the 1/8" mini connector, like the standard iMac G5, PB, PowerMac, or new MacBooks. Gives you more flexibility. HD size not so important, you can use an external HD and redirect iTunes storage location to it.

The advantage of the iMac approach is one piece, internal 250 GB storage, no separate display, and they have had iMac G5's at CostCo for a number of weeks discounted but including 3 year Apple care warranty. It's a pretty good deal.

The G4 model of Mac Mini doesn't have Front Row; the Intel version does. The iMac, G5 or intel, does also. It's the cat's meow for remote music control across the room, or access to photo or DVD. That's what it's made for, makes you display work kind of like an iPod.

[Bob]

Good info, John

[alpina]

Are you planning on using your TV as a monitor? If so, my understanding is that the text quality is not so great unless you have an HDTV, and if you have an older model HDTV you may need to buy a transcoder (~$100) to get an HD-quality video signal out of the Mac and into your TV.

Might use it as a monitor for short periods - we have a pioneer 5060 plasma but concerned about screen burn if we use it as a computer monitor.

Julie

[GregLett]

how about this pc for audio only?

https://logisysus.ourinternet.us/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=97&products_id=334

[GregLett]

How quiet is the mac mini?

[Bob]

How quiet is the mac mini?

If you had it about one foot from your ear and you play music at whisper levels, you could possibly notice it.
For many people the Macbook, or any other portable computer, may be a better alternative. Then you don't need a keyboard or a monitor. With my system I use a wireless mouse and keyboard bought the smallest, least expensive monitor I could find.

[GregLett]

Thanks. I was thinking of using my TV for the monitor it has a monitor imput.
I want something small, that could sit in my table. From what I read the mac mini has a remote?

[Bob]

Yes, it has a remote.

http://www.apple.com/macmini/frontrow.html

[dknightd]

I use a Mac G5 as my source. I've tried USB and firewire DACs and now use optical toslink to a Benchmark DAC1. No doubt about it, the DAC1 sounds better than the Edirol USB or the M-audio firewire. The DAC1 is the only one of the three that sounds better than my CD player. I rarely use my CD player anymore.
How much memory, how fast a CPU, and how much and fast disk you need depends on the size of your library. Mine is getting pretty big - on a slower machine with less memory moving through it gets slow.
Once you get used to the point and click interface to music it is hard to go back.

[audiojunky]

Can you get the Mac Mini with a larger internal hard drive? It seems to come with only 60GB.

The Mac Mini seems to be a great option. It looks awesome, is small and has a remote.

Are there cheaper alternatives than the DAC1 which is around $1K?

The Mac Mini + DAC1 + external hard drive option is around $1800.

Other options = Olive SYMPHONY at around $1000.

http://www.olive.us/

Wonder how that compares with the Mac Mini option.

Also, there's the Cambridge Audio Music server option.