THE DEATH OF HI-RES. And good riddance..

[BTB]

Hi All

Before you all hate me, I've titled this thread to provoke interest & hopefully a good discussion. :T

I'm sure many if you (like me) have been following this subject with some interest for the past while, and I was quite keen to see how it would all turn out. Part of me thought it was yet another cynical industry move to get us all to buy more stuff, but of course anything that promises better sound quality interests me.

Yesterday I picked up the April issue of HiFi Choice and read the CES show reports with some interest. Seems that the hi-res audio fraternity was very poorly represented, leading some (including Art Dudley) to speculate that the (I.M.O non-starting) hi res "phenomena" was for all intents and purposes; no more.

I own a miserable "collection" of Hi Res material, which amounts to 1 HDCD disc (The Soft Bulletin by The Flaming Lips) and I once heard an SACD version of the Miles Davis classic "Kind of Blue". I must admit, I did wonder what all the fuss was about, I suppose it might've (only just) sounded a bit better than good old 16 bit, but the difference certainly wasn't jaw dropping. Maybe the equipment I heard them on (including my own system ) wasn't good enough to fully realise the potential benefit, or maybe there wasn't that much of a benefit to begin with?

I've since sold my HDCD equipped player and bought one that doesn't support any of the HI Res formats. I guess at the end of the day, it's dollars that count and if Joe Public (yes the same guy who's just DOWNGRADED from CD to MP3) doesn't want it, no-one's gonna have it!

Long live King 16 bit! Until we all have to "rent" music from download sites. Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water.... :twisted:

[LikeCoiledSteel]

I think that there was a fuss in the beginning about the format war between SACD & DVD-A, but at the end of the day, it is Joe Public that wanted neither. In reality, JOE P. uses an HTIB or a MP3 player for music. My father-in-law used his satalite music channels played through his tv speakers before I upgraded his rig to a decent system. Decent, but still not capable of reaping the benefits of hi-res.

Today's public want convenience. If a product can give them 90 percent of the quality of CD, while being cheaper (or free) and much more convenient, that is what they buy. IMHO, cd is good enough for the public, as is standard DVD. There are many things we can do on the audiophile side to make std. CD's sound very good. They will never match vinyl sound, but for me they are good enough. The right room treatments will make more of a difference than hi-res vs. std. cd.

I can see this same argument to a lesser degree on the new his-res DVD's. The public cares more about video than sound and always will. But do they need hi-res dvd? How good are thier tv's to see a difference? Will they replace thier libraries with new formats? Or is what they have good enough? Most of they buying public will not care. And won't even know there is a difference. The format war just adds to the lunacy.

At the end of the day, our numbers are too few. The eary adopters are too few. If the public does not bite, it is the end of whatever format they come out with. The end without a beginning.
Steel

[gd]

Apparently, the SACD / DVD-A war didn't scare anyone off from starting the HD-DVD / BluRay wars.

As long as some suit somewhere envisions a fat return for the next shiny gadget, there will always be stuff tossed out there to try to trigger a response (read: create a demand).

At some point, well after lossy downloaded music dominates the marketplace, I figure the suits will want to sell popular music titles all over again, and will find a way to piggyback hi-res music onto whatever format wins the Hi-Res Video wars, and the Marketing Dept will rise to the call once again -- "NEW! IMPROVED! BETTER than your old downloads!"

And that would suit me... FWIW, I can readily discern the hi-res music difference on my modest low-to-mid-fi gear... night and day? -- no, but I consider the few titles I have to be cherished keepers.

And if they don't, that's OK too... I'm very content to walk away from hi-res if the cost of admittance is too high... I've got lotsa redbook titles and a good DAC.

[csuzor]

Those who have seriously tried hires music have been convinced it is better than cd, "if recorded properly". And those who are equipped for good multi-channel music playback have found it better than stereo, "if mixed properly".

But the lack of sufficient releases has caused them to continue to buy cd or lp.

"good riddance"?, no. "unfortunate mass market ignorance" and "corporate greed".

The future may be about downloading music, and if the drm is good enough, we may see 24/96 or DSD downloads being made available, maybe even in mch. I am prepared to wait longer for the download, and record to a dvdrw rather than a cdrw to play it on the hifi.

[Vinny]

Those who have seriously tried hires music have been convinced it is better than cd, "if recorded properly". And those who are equipped for good multi-channel music playback have found it better than stereo, "if mixed properly".

But the lack of sufficient releases has caused them to continue to buy cd or lp.

"good riddance"?, no. "unfortunate mass market ignorance" and "corporate greed".

The future may be about downloading music, and if the drm is good enough, we may see 24/96 or DSD downloads being made available, maybe even in mch. I am prepared to wait longer for the download, and record to a dvdrw rather than a cdrw to play it on the hifi.

It is actually doable as we now have all these speedy internet. I can go upto 1mb/sec without problem while downloading drivers etc. A single layer DVD is around 4.5 gb which takes only 1hour and 15mins or so to finish downloading that much. Even though a DSL connection which has around 300k/sec download speed or so would take only 4hours to finish a whole disk. Leaving the computer on for the night will actually get one done.
Compare to what iTune offers for the TV program now, it's not much difference in terms fo time, and I would be happy to buy some disks files that I cannot find(like available in other countries but not released in certain place etc). Not to mention we can make our own favorite combination of tracks :T

[BTB]

Hi Guys

I guess my original post was essentially motivated by a sort of nostalgic concern for what appears to be the near future demise of mainstream acceptence of "physical media" as a vital component of music reproduction. Music is one of my great joys in life, and I guess I feel that there's a sense of involvement in purchasing a disc, reading the liner notes, appreciating the sleeve artwork etc.. All these make my listening experience that much richer. And even though dowload music has some type of graphic component.. as we work our way to downloads at twice the speed of light, I can't help but feel that the "experience" will be that much more anonymous, and music reduced to "throw away" data.

I agree with Coiled steel, Joe P would unfortunately fork out mega bucks for the latest "mile wide" paper thin, ultra flat TV monitor with the latest bells and whistles DVD format and that's cool, each to his own. I guess it's of ongoing interest to me how real live human beings are turned into marketing zombies in search of the new and improved, shiny new thing never questioning why last weeks stuff won't do anymore. Maybe that's why creeky old 2 ch stereo appeals to me, becuase it goes against the stream.

Anyhow, I still get a kick out of the fact that vinyl LP's are still around decades after they lost mainstream acceptance. Maybe 20 years from now I'll grin at the fact that CD's are still alive and kicking. There might just be hope for a 30 year old dinosaur like me after all!

[Shane Martin]

Csuzor said it better than I could so I say Ditto.

Hi Res is all but dead. I don't see any releases locally. If I do, j6p won't. Which means only a cult following will keep the formats alive.

[DifferentLee]

Apparently, the SACD / DVD-A war didn't scare anyone off from starting the HD-DVD / BluRay wars.

How do you know? I for one will be sitting it out and I'm an early adopter.

Seems that the hi-res audio fraternity was very poorly represented, leading some (including Art Dudley) to speculate that the (I.M.O non-starting) hi res "phenomena" was for all intents and purposes; no more.

It saddens me to see so many "hirez id dead" threads when it is prospering for us jazz and classical lovers. Just this week I picked up a wonderful MoFi of Gerry Mulligan on SACD. There are more classical titles of interest than my wallet can handle. And here in Atlanta Tower, Borders and Best Buy are doing well with them.

A case can be made for DVD Audio and Dual Disc but with Super Audio it's no more dead than the LP.

Sometimes a niche can bring rewards also like higher quality boutique labels with better recording AND mastering.

[Andrew M Ward]

These things take time...

These things go in cycles... if you stick around long enough audio will come back in style.

File based audio is relatively new and extremely easy and readily available on the world’s largest entertainment vehicle... The internet.

That’s hard to compete with... then throw in TV's that can hang on walls and Hi-def video over cable or mini-dish distribution and you've created another distraction for the wallet...

Audio (quality audio) will came back around, it just takes time. It might even be in the form of 24/192 delivered on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray where it starts its come-back

(I give it 3 years, and we’re back in the high-quality-audio business again)

[gianni]

It saddens me to see so many "hirez id dead" threads when it is prospering for us jazz and classical lovers. Just this week I picked up a wonderful MoFi of Gerry Mulligan on SACD. There are more classical titles of interest than my wallet can handle. And here in Atlanta Tower, Borders and Best Buy are doing well with them.

A case can be made for DVD Audio and Dual Disc but with Super Audio it's no more dead than the LP.

Sometimes a niche can bring rewards also like higher quality boutique labels with better recording AND mastering.

In a way, this makes a lot of sense. I've always felt acoustic instruments lent themselves better to the Hi Rez formats. Jazz and classical in my experience
are worth listening to in Hi Rez and although I do listen to some myself, I don't feel Rock and Pop gain much from Hi Rez. Maybe the boutique labels is where these formats truly belong. It seems so much of the popular music coming out from some of the big labels is so poorly recorded that it really does not make me want to sit and listen.

[DifferentLee]

I don't feel Rock and Pop gain much from Hi Rez

You should hear Ryan Adams Gold or DSOTM on my system then.

[comeup]

It saddens me to see so many "hirez id dead"


I'm with you DifferentLee I think Hi Res is great and I enjoy most of the ones i've bought. I love stereo I love SACD I love DVD Audio and HDCD I love anything that sounds good thats why I spent so much on my system for great sound. I don't want to be stuck with one format thats boring to me keep it comin the more they research this stuff the better it gets we don't want to go backwards it has to get better. I think if your an audiophile you have to want it so that the sound of music will continue to get better.

Peace Brothers

[gianni]

You should hear Ryan Adams Gold or DSOTM on my system then.

By this I mean on average. Rock and many pop recordings are just an entirely different beast in most cases. This is not to say that there are not some good ones.

Different, I don't think my system is the issue or the limiting factor. The basic fact remains that many of today's recordings are on a relative basis, poor at best. There are articles by folks well known in the music/recording industry stating exactly this. I did not make this up, it just coincides with and supports my experience. Knowing you have had some experience in recording, I would think that you of all people would know this.

[David Meek]

Knowing you have had some experience in recording, I would think that you of all people would know this.

Cool it a little.

[gianni]

yes david

[Alaric]

With a budget limited system , I have found SACD to have far more potential than CD. My audio system doesn't do DVD-A or HD-CD. As for Rock not gaining much from Hi-Rez , try Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side Of The Moon'. gianni , I agree that it is hard to find decent production quality in every format.

[gross30]

I agree with you there, Alaric, "Dark side of the Moon" on SACD just sounds incredible. I haven't listened to the old disc since I purchased the SACD. I only have 10 SACD'S, and had to purchase all of them on-line. No one stocks them here unless you special order. I would probably buy more if they were readily available. I enjoy the sound.

[gostan]

Well, if you decide to "early adopt" HD-DVD and do not have a HDMI switching receiver or pre-pro, you will have to utilize the analog 5.1 inputs to get any audio.

That is, without doubt, the end of the Hi-Rez Multi-channel audio as there are almost no pre-pro's with dual 5.1 inputs. At least until you elect to upgrade to HDMI 1.1 (DVD-Audio only) or wait it out for HDMI 1.3.

Not exactly on-point, but it is the reality of the Hi Rez situation.

[Chris D]

Just to point out, Stan, every time that there is a new audio or video jack made, video displays, pre/pros, and receivers always run out of inputs for that type of jack before future models are made with multiple inputs. Somebody always makes a switcher for that jack, so you can do it externally.

Some 5.1 analog multichannel switchers do exist out there. The best I've found is made by Zektor. http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html

[gostan]

Just to point out, Stan, every time that there is a new audio or video jack made, video displays, pre/pros, and receivers always run out of inputs for that type of jack before future models are made with multiple inputs. Somebody always makes a switcher for that jack, so you can do it externally.

Some 5.1 analog multichannel switchers do exist out there. The best I've found is made by Zektor. http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html

Chris, you are correct, there is always some external add-on solution. For me, an external switcher is just another unnecessary link in the audio chain. I have never been a big fan of daisy-chaining.

[Mitchell]

I am no expert on HDCD. My one experience is that I noticed that the Neil Youngs Greatest Hits CD I bought sounded particularly nice on my Rotel 1072 CD player. Better than other CD I listen to. One day months after I had bought it I noticed that when it was playing a strange light was lit on the 1072. it was the HDCD light and I realized why it sounded noticably better than my other CD's.

[Herbonbay]

I own some wonderfully recorded SACDs , wonderfully recorded A-DVDs and wonderfully recorded CDs. Likewise, I own many of the above that are poorly recorded. I think the important key to any format is the art and commitment of the recording engineer. I think that SACD had great potential, unfortunately, that potential was lost because of poor and mostly absent marketing. How many of you have ever been given a pitch for the Hi Rez formats by an upscale audio dealer. It was usually a subject that I brought up, and it rarely produced much enthusiasm. High end audio has always been a niche market and will most likely remain one in the future. With in that niche, I think SACD would be alive and growing if it had been embraced and presented by the high end dealers.

[Kal Rubinson]

I own some wonderfully recorded SACDs , wonderfully recorded A-DVDs and wonderfully recorded CDs. Likewise, I own many of the above that are poorly recorded. I think the important key to any format is the art and commitment of the recording engineer. I think that SACD had great potential, unfortunately, that potential was lost because of poor and mostly absent marketing. How many of you have ever been given a pitch for the Hi Rez formats by an upscale audio dealer. It was usually a subject that I brought up, and it rarely produced much enthusiasm. High end audio has always been a niche market and will most likely remain one in the future. With in that niche, I think SACD would be alive and growing if it had been embraced and presented by the high end dealers.

Sigh. Right on all counts.

Kal

[DifferentLee]

I work on audiophile recordings and I think you need three elements present for superior playback:

1. A great original recording (good performance and good acoustics).

2. Great mastering with a "light touch" on the knobs. No processing and flat transfers.

3. Analog tape or a high sampling rate. In my experience DSD gets closer to the performance.

[Ovation]

Well, it may be marginal, but I'd hesitate to call it dead (and certainly not "good riddance"). My online shopping carts are full of SACDs and DVD-As that I cannot yet afford (and I buy music at a pretty decent clip), and the 100 or so hi-res discs I already have keep my player pretty busy. Things could certainly be better in terms of product output, but I don't regret taking the hi-res plunge for a single minute. In fact, I'll be spinning Pletnev Plays Schumann before bedtime tonight and I'll be smiling.

[DifferentLee]

Knowing you have had some experience in recording, I would think that you of all people would know this.

One thing I have learned is the high value of extra sampling rates. It is impossible for instance to capture cymbals properly without hirez based on my acoustic musician sessions in the studio.

Once you have heard a live vocal or acoustic jazz event in DSD or 24/88.2 there is no way you want to go backward in tech to 16/44.

[Andrew M Ward]

More reasons to hate andrew

Frankly I am stunned that this ridiculous thread is till gasping along...
(Somebody put a bullet in this thing)
The title even suggest it’s a dead topic

So kill it …

Here, I’ll sum it up…

Hi-Rez Audio:
we tried = nobody cared = it died = the end…

[BTB]

Hi Andrew...

Ridiculous? I don't know....

Just thought we'd have a bit of fun with the subject... always funny to observe the disparity between the "hype" vs. reality of whatever this weeks "new big thing" is.

Fun, you know... as in the opposite of bitter and twisted.

[aud19]

Fun, you know... as in the opposite of bitter and twisted.

Perhaps a bit more "sharp tongued" than appropriate... but that got a giggle out of me :lol:

[David Meek]

Now boys, play nice together.

[DifferentLee]

we tried = nobody cared = it died = the end…

Andrew, why rain on such a good format? Hirez is terrific at getting us closer to the original performance. So what if it didn't get mainstream attention?

MoFi or DCC did not get mainstream attention either yet thank god they were created.

[Elvis]

What a load! High rez may die but it will be because of goof balls(not the kind you eat).Most uninformed with a crappy setup would never know the difference anyway.

[Andrew M Ward]

Perhaps a bit more "sharp tongued" than appropriate... but that got a giggle out of me :lol:

I (of course) am almost never serious... :



(I'm usually shooting for either a snicker or total shock!)

[Evil Twin]

Yes, It's clearly dead, finished, imploded, a dark star. Do not bother thinking about or considering high resolution audio media. This format is not for you. These aren't the disks you're looking for.


On an unrelated topic, I ordered a new SACD player yesterday and 10 more RCA Living Stereo SACD's, plus "Eat a Peach", Nine Inch Nails Downward, Bela Fleck "Drive", Patricia Barber "Companion", Los Lobos "This Time", and Al DiMeola "Elegant Gypsy" Japanese import. I expect to be most satisfied with the playback quality from these additions to my collection.

[DifferentLee]

Nobody is buying vinyl these days so I guess that's a dead format as well.

Thank God most of us here prefer quality over popularity. :T

[BTB]

Strangely...

Vinyl has been out selling both SACD and DVD-A in the UK market for the past few years now. Just for information... :W

But I do agree with your "quality" statement.

[JonMarsh]

Yes, vinyl is far from dead, just look at the catalog and web space Music Direct and Acoustic Visions devote to it. And it does outsell SACD and DVD-A combined. But I haven't bought a new record for my Denon/Linn Itok combo in 20 years. I'm just too attached to hybrid SACD's and the two for one aspect- high res for critical listening, and a great CD layer for the music server.

~Jon

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes, vinyl is far from dead, just look at the catalog and web space Music Direct and Acoustic Visions devote to it. And it does outsell SACD and DVD-A combined. But I haven't bought a new record for my Denon/Linn Itok combo in 20 years. I'm just too attached to hybrid SACD's and the two for one aspect- high res for critical listening, and a great CD layer for the music server.
~Jon

I haven't bought an LP in years (except at a flea market) because there have been no new classical LPs in decades! As far as I am concerned, it may be viable but it's in suspended animation.

New SACDs, OTOH, come in almost daily!

Kal

[nopat]

But what kind of vinyl albums are being sold in the UK. There is both a very large "indie" music scene as well as a huge club scene who regularly, and almost exclusively, put out music on record format. For the latter, the industry almost demands a vinyl - all the cool kids spin on 1200s.

Listen, I know we all love our formats, but Andrew is right, we [collectively] could care less about high-def audio. I spend 90% of my time listening to music at my computer, in my car, or on a portable device. So 90% of the time, my enjoyment of how well an album is recorded is severely limited by the type of equipment I'm playing it over (read: content versus quality). Why would I, or anyone else, invest untold amounts of money into a standard that no one uses, and in fact, is headed in the exact opposite direction: compressed formats and delivery.

Not to say that there isn't a market for it, but like all things, there will be a premium. Of which are availability and selection.

[Alaric]

But what kind of vinyl albums are being sold in the UK. There is both a very large "indie" music scene as well as a huge club scene who regularly, and almost exclusively, put out music on record format. For the latter, the industry almost demands a vinyl - all the cool kids spin on 1200s.

Listen, I know we all love our formats, but Andrew is right, we [collectively] could care less about high-def audio. I spend 90% of my time listening to music at my computer, in my car, or on a portable device. So 90% of the time, my enjoyment of how well an album is recorded is severely limited by the type of equipment I'm playing it over (read: content versus quality). Why would I, or anyone else, invest untold amounts of money into a standard that no one uses, and in fact, is headed in the exact opposite direction: compressed formats and delivery.

Not to say that there isn't a market for it, but like all things, there will be a premium. Of which are availability and selection.

I listen to talk radio in the car and use the computer for burning CDs.If I want to listen to music I use my modest , 2 channel stereo. I have stopped listening to some "content" because it sounds like poo no matter what I play it on. I've discovered some great music since I started paying more attention to format (and production quality). SACD and vinyl remain the best sources of music reproduction for me. Evil Twin is my new hero...... :W

[Evil Twin]

I listen to talk radio in the car and use the computer for burning CDs.If I want to listen to music I use my modest , 2 channel stereo. I have stopped listening to some "content" because it sounds like poo no matter what I play it on. I've discovered some great music since I started paying more attention to format (and production quality). SACD and vinyl remain the best sources of music reproduction for me. Evil Twin is my new hero...... :W

with "every breath you take", I must feel the "force" in the music...

now playing, "The Girl in the Other Room", Diana Krall, SACD



...most satisfactory... :T

[Alaric]

Evil Twin is my new hero...

:agree: And now a source of envy.Very nice Marantz. I'll have to be content with my SA8260 , but since it's probably a lot better than my amp and speakers I'll muddle through.

[JonMarsh]

Your SA-8260 is great player and has gotten a lot of positive press for it's overall musicality and value- plus some competing players when it was introduced have been something less than paragons of reliability (the Philips SACD comes to mind). The SA-8269 has a Class A rating at Stereophile if I recall correctly, and was in production for five years, the sign of a real classic in this day and age. :T

[Alaric]

I am quite pleased with my player , but you know how it is with us-always looking at the next upgrade! :rofl: