Are expensive wires and interconnects necessary

[Kobus]

Am I missing anything here ? Is it that Classe is selling air to us lay people or is it really an issue ? :E
Eliav

It is probably a bit of both. The question is how much of each.

Kobus

[bigburner]

Victor, I think that Professor Robert L. Park was a little deluded when he suggested that we live in an age of science.

[tnt]

Sciences are not needed for profitable businesses. There're more people who are ignorant about sciences than scientists, so it's a lost fight for scientists. The latter may as well mix sciences with "marketing" or voodoo and make serious money with the former. Yea this may be against their conscience but scientists should admit that there're things that can't be measured, and/or perception can be more important than reality.

I always wonder how women I stare at for just seconds know they're being looked at and invariably look back at me as if they knew my feelings.

For the record I'm a scientist/engineer who designs products well known to audiophiles, but I don't use my most exotic products at home and am more than happy to sell them to any one willing to pay the big bucks. :B

[Bob]

Thank you for the information, Victor. All these years I thought that most discoveries started with man's observation of something and then his endevour to find out the why's and how's of it. Now I know the truth. With each discovery, first someone used reason and logic that it must be so, then they looked for the proof. Sort of how man first noticed the moon and the sun. For a long time they went unnoticed then a engineer in Italy used reason and logic to figure out that the earth must revolve around something and something must revolve around it . So, he started to look up and was the first man to see the sun and the moon and the stars.
Yeah, that's how it works.
I'll let my neighbors know about their ignorance. It's a wonder that they manage to design satellites and airplanes when they know so little about physics and electrical transmission.

[audioqueso]

While I recognize you have engineering knowledge. I also recognize an engineer's closed mind to the principles of an audiophile. We support both here, not one at the other's expense. So, you can either accept that, and act accordingly, or find somewhere else to dispense your electronics knowledge.

lol... I'm an SE (part EE). And let me tell you that... just kidding. lol I rather not get involved in this fight as it's as pointless as the coax vs optical battle you always read about. lol

Just remember that we don't actually hear electrons. We hear analog soundwaves. So all the technical jargon really means jack to your ears. If you pay $100-200 more for one cable and it doesn't really sound THAT good compared to your original cable, return it and be happy. :T

[Karma]

HI All,
I agree with audioquesto. The discussion is pointless but painful. The discussion always starts to resemble a religious debate. These waters are too deep and dangerous with no useful outcome.

Sparky

[Alloroc]

Wouldn't mind getting my 'tuppence' worth in here before this thread is locked.
One thing always amazes me with this kind of thread - the answer the following question.

What is an audiophile?

A dictionary might tell you that it is 'a person having an ardent interest in stereo or high-fidelity sound reproduction.'
I think it goes deeper. Much deeper. An audiophile is not just the end user - the guy at home with his 1,5, 10,50 even 100K dollar hifi.

From the sound engineer in the recording studio or at the live recording(for high quality recordings that is) to the engineer that hand selects and tests different transistors or valves for use in an amplifier.

Hifi is not just about how it sounds. It also how it was made. The effort undertaken to squeeze that last 5% out of each component to present the new owner with a piece of equipment whose performance is greater than the sum of its parts.

My favorite hifi anecdote comes from Robert Levi of Positive Feedback. Here's what he had to say about Saul Marantz.

"I met Sol Marantz in 1979, when he and Dick Sequerra were promoting a joint venture in manufacturing speakers and tuners. He had sold his company more than ten years earlier with few regrets, and was ready to go on to new challenges. He offered sage advice to anyone interested in good music and exceptional gear. He explained light-heartedly how he would sit in his old Marantz office while Sid Smith diddled with the circuits, only emerging for a listen when invited. Sol was a musician, not a technician. Sid would ask, "What do you think?" and Sol would say, "Needs a bit more fullness in the bass or a bit more sparkle, please." Sometimes he would not be invited back to listen for a week or more. Sid would continue this process until Sol said, "That’s it!" and the circuit would be finalized. Sid made sure it was electrically right, Sol made sure it sounded right. Sol also liked a beautiful product. He knew it was expensive gear, so it had to be constructed and finished to the best standards."

Now some people might just want to have the best hifi that money can buy and couldn't give a damn about being an Audiophile.
Others might have an 'entry level' system and really do care about it. They save and save for their next well planned and informed purchase and experience delight from the result. They are no less of an Audiophile than any other.

It is my ears humble opinion that experimentation with different cables, delivers minute, yes minute changes in performance with quality components. For some, that does not justify the cost for these cables, for others it does.

Now, the suggestion or implication that one is somehow deluded and gullible because one believes that one can detect these minute differences in sound when a cable is changed, well my only answer is to take your electrons and wire hangers bowling for all I care.

I'm not aiming this statement at any particular individual on this forum(and I don't believe I'm being inflammatory, but please let me know if I am). I'm aiming this at all objectivists - double blind test all you want, my ears know what they like, and I trust them over anything. Live and let live!

[JonMarsh]

Ok. Clothes hangers aren't long enough to do the job so I'll have to assume it's true-just to err on the side of caution. I have two very close relatives who are engineers ( not electrical , but mechanical and one with a master's degree in mechanical engineering). They have proven over the years , in the marketplace , that they are pretty good engineers. I'd trust them to design anything , including the brakes on my car (one did). The "better" one feels his Bose lifestyle system is superior to almost everything else because , and I quote , "Numbers Don't Lie".

Everytime I hear this kind of statement I'm reminded of two things.

One, numbers don't lie, but statisticians and marketing people do use numbers to lie-

Two, if the "numbers" show that there isn't any difference, but someone says they can hear a difference, it just probably means you're measuring the wrong things. We have a rather active forum section at Mission Possible DIY in which a significant part of the discussion is about what things to measure, and how to measure them. To whit, even in the old days, there was a big difference between Julian Hirsch (God rest his soul) and Richard Heyser (God rest his, too- he's probably not resting all that well since Audio magazine went down the tubes). Now we're in the situation where the most advanced magazine reviews I see in the US of A would be humbled by what's done in DIY forums.

Last, you CAN measure important differences in cables (though whether those differences are the main reason they sound different is hard to say), and oh, did I mention they do sound different?

Coat hangars? Yuck. Ferrous materials in the signal path. :nonod: :nonod:

~Jon

[grit]

Just a quick story to throw my $.02 in.

I was demoing a Rotel RCD-1072 about 6 months ago and took it home to compare it to my Rotel RDV-1060 DVD player. Both were connected via 2-ch analog bypass.

My dealer loaned me a pair of cables, about 2.5 to 3 times the price of the ones I use (same brand, just more expensive). To make everything as even as possible, I took the pair of cables from the pre-pro to the amp and used them to connect the CD player. So, now both the CD player and the DVD player were connected using the exact same type of cable. I put the more expensive cables connecting the front 2 channels from the pre-pro to the amp.

My first step was to listen to my DVD player, which I was familiar with, before listening to the CD player, just to have a fresh listen. So, I popped in "Hotel California" off The Eagles' "Hell Freezes Over", because I've listened to that song literally over 50 times on my old system. I IMMEDIATELY noticed a surprising change in the sound. It seems clearer and to have more detail. I wasn't EXPECTING any changes at all, and was VERY surprised. So, I started listening to other songs with which I was familiar, just to see if it was a misperception. On every song, I noticed some level of change, which I perceived to be an improvement.

In the end, I bought the CD player, because I liked how it sounded more than the DVD player. I also upgraded my cables.

Do higher quality (usually meaning more expensive cables within a given brand) make a difference in the sound? Absolutely. But just as Alloroc said, whether or not that change is an improvement and whether or not it is worth the cost is up to each individual.

[Eliav]

I would like to add a few words :
Unlike many forum members here, I do apreciate Victor's input, and I do think his scientific point of view and knowledge should be cosidered. I am not at all threatened by these numbers and facts,that's because I KNOW that whatever counts for me is what I hear.
I do agree with some of you who have claimed that measurments and electrons cannot and should not be the gold standard for a given hi-fi setup.
Let me give you one simple example :
take two persons with normal hearing test ( pure tone audiometry - standard hearing test) both have the SAME numbers we all can measure. Can they understand and discriminate human speech the same way ? do they perceive music the same way ? do they hear the same nuances the same way ? the answer to all these questions is : not necessarily. That's because our brain 's processing of musical and speech information is very complex. it may perceive simple tones similarly but more complex information such as speech and music requires further processing in upprer brain levels ,the end result is at the cortex, the subcortical levels and "emotional" center and may be different from person to person.
these differences are almost impossible to measure objectively, the only way to tell these differences are by SUBJECTIVE evaluations, not by numbers ( no engineer could have described Bethoven's brain capacity for processing music by numbers, in fact his "numbers" = hearing was bad...).
So, electrons and electronics are one part of the equation, nerves, personality, mood and genes are the other side.

Cheers
Eliav

[Alaric]

Oops

I appreciate the heck out of Victor's input and have no hard feelings whatsoever. I will be a lot less prone to thinking $=something of value just because it costs more. I have revisited the A/B cable comparison about a dozen times with my own stuff in the last couple days. Victor gave me the gift of doubt-a thinking man's best friend. He also had a rational , clear response to every objection. I still think my Silvercats sound better than the cables they replaced but I'll pay a hell of a lot more attention to every audio choice I make from now on.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit if his sharing of knowledge saves me some money down the road. I certainly don't view skepticism as a negative trait-especially when it's backed up by knowledge and experience. I suppose I got a little defensive when called upon to prove my assertions , but that was a failing on my part. The vast collection of knowledge and experience in this forum are what attracted me to it in the first place. My claim of knowing something that may just be a quirk of my hearing (or imagination?) needed to be poked and prodded. Good for Victor. My wife doesn't take any cr*p from me , no reason anybody else should. :smackbutt: Besides , I never learned anything from someone who agreed with me.

[comeup]

You guys are heavy thinkers and I respect everyone of you for your honest opinions don't change please. I know I've spent too much at times and will keep spending because the system can always be better what a hobby. Sometimes I'm out of control, just can't get enough.

Keeping It Real

[bigburner]

What is an audiophile?

An audiophile is a person who loves a hobby for which the laws of science do not necessarily apply.

[Karma]

HI Big,
Although I have my differences with Victor and his science first attitude, I do agree that what we hear boils down to physics.

Victor is a good man who is trying his best to bring his religion to the heathens. I call him an extreme objectivist. I too am a technologist. I feel most comfortable when things can be explained with numbers. However, I learned many years ago that my ears told me more about audio than either test equipment or equations. Why is this?

I think the primary problem is we still do not know how our hearing mechanism works and our mental information processing is in the very first stages of understanding. Since we don't know how and which audio information is processed, how can we measure sonic attributes that are relevant? We can't. To rely on measurements to define our listening experience is folly. I believe some day we will be able to it. Each year we get closer.

Next, the objectivist view does not allow for the immature state of our measurement technology. If you admit that condition then one must depend on something else; our ears. Here the objectivist objects that our judgments are subjective and have no real value. I agree that we are, as audiophiles, subjective judges of sound. Does that mean we we imagining our reactions? Maybe, maybe not. Like all other forms of human activity, there are many variations and opinions on the quality of the judgment. This allows the door to open to the snake oil salesmen. But, I maintain that many folks do hear the essential qualities that separate audio equipment. I do trust my ears. The extreme objectivist can not. It violates their religion.

These two sides of the issue will never meet.

Sparky

[Chris D]

What is an audiophile?

A crazy, crazy, person.

[David Meek]

Karma, that's an excellent post! I heartily agree with you. :T

[Alaric]

Very well said , Karma. You , too Chris! Maybe the two sides get a little closer every time we discuss the differences......

[Karma]

HI,
Thanks for your kind words and support. Chris, maybe crazy but not insane, right :W ?

Sparky

[NewBuyer]

Victor, thank you again for your posts. I can only speak for myself, but I really appreciate the perspective you share. I wish that Victor and other members would share similar perspectives here more often, without resulting intimidation.

Also, I am really unsure about Lex' above statement "...I also recognize an engineer's closed mind to the principles of an audiophile." That just seems like such a strange thing for any disinterested party to say.

Again I can only speak for myself - but isn't it the engineers and their research allies that enable the audiophile to enjoy this recreation in the first place? It is the greedy marketplace and its associated predators that produce so much confusion and misinformation. It is the rip-off artists who also get the most threatened/nervous whenever someone who sees through the scams ever speaks up about it. This is specially true when the person speaking up about it is trying to help others from becoming the next marketplace victims.

[stewfoo]

OK, I am usually the one to raise the Bull sh!@ flag. I have always thought that most cable talk is BS. But, I bought better ones just to be make sure I did not have a weak link. But, until today, I never A/b tested good and bad ones. I had a couple of $30 monster cable digital coaxial cables that I bought at Radio Shack connecting a Rotel 1072 to a Classe ssp-300, and a Toshiba DVD Player connecting to the same receiver. I played a Norah Jones CD in 2ch through the monster cable. It was what I was used to. There wasn't the greatest imaging.... In fact, the sound was very directed. The music could be traced directly to each speaker. When I switched over to the new Silver digital cables I bought from CAT, I immediately noticed that the singer's voice was centered and then kinda moved around. But, it seemed like the speakers disappeared. This is the first time I heard this imaging difference. But, let me assure you, it was real. Maybe it is not a fair comparison because the CAT's are truly a work of art, absolutely beautiful. The Monster cables used were very low end. But, if a guy like me who is definitely no audiophile can tell the difference ...There is a difference, and it certainly was not just ergonomic...

[GregLett]

Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bay Aea
Posts: 87

Are expensive wires and interconnects necessary?

The answer to that question IMO is no. We can argue differences all day, I'm with the there is a difference club. The club that I'm no longer a member of is the more expensive one is better club. You have to find the cable that's the right fit for your system, and just because a cable cost $1,000 doesn't mean that it's right for your system and will give you better performance.
I personally believe that most of the cost of very expensive cables is for the companys overhead, such as full page ads in the audio magazines, and copper wire dressed up in a fancy cloths. $100 to $200 to me is a fair price to charge for cables, standard lengths,
anything else is just for gravy.

[Karma]

HI Stew,
All right, Stew! Another convert. Our church will grow and prosper :T . Look out, you may become an audiophile and that is an expensive quest.

Sparky

[comeup]

To me this has been a fun thread and not to be kissing anyones butt, but I agree with GregLett you don't have to spend a fortune to get great sound. I'm not saying get the cheap cables but get the ones that sound the best for your system and that dosn't have to be a ton of money. I believe that a pair of (quality 200$ cables) can sound as good as a 500$ set. Would I use a pair of 20$ cables from Home Depot (Heck no) I would not disrespect my system like that. I have bought very very expensive cables before and could not hear a difference maybe there was and I couldn't hear something that someone else could but I returned them. I will tell ya this if I find a expensive pair that does make huge difference in my sound I will buy them. After reading everything above do I think expensive is better No, do I think inexpensive is better No.

P.S. Won't be buying anything soon taking the wife and kids on a seven day cruise to the Bahamas there goes the plasma I was planning to get.

[Bob]

I know this topic has been suspended, however, I would like to submit an ignorant question:
if vibrations does not play ANY role in solid state gear (except for turntables) why is it that respectable brands like "Classe" take the time to present their new products such as the new stereo pre amp as :
" To reduce the effects of vibration on the CP-700 circuitry, the Classé Design Team utilizes a Delta series chassis, made of both steel and aluminum. The front panel wrap is an aluminum extrusion with a broad radius on the front corners. The feet are specially designed with Navcom(TM) LimbSaver ® material, which provide excellent damping of vibrations, both internal and external to the chassis. As a mechanical system, the Delta series chassis is optimized as an ideal foundation on which to build world-class electronic components.

Because vibrations do have an effect on solid state gear. Remember, we are talking about audio signals here, not turning on light bulbs. While it is obvious why unwanted vibrations aren't wanted in turntables, it is less so with SS. But remember, within your SS gear are crystals, capacitors, and wires that when vibrated send out a audio signal.
That is where Victor missed the boat on cables. Yes, we know how and why electrons pass through wires. Yes it is well understood how different metals affect impedance and capacitance, as does multi strand v.s. solid, as does parrallel wire (ribbons) v.s. wound, as does the shape, as does weaving the wire. And, not least, the di-electric of the casings. The questions that are being investigated are why the audio signal sounds better with some shapes, types of metal, etc. which has nothing to do with the flow of electrons.
The same question goes to vibrations. That they cause a audio noise isn't a question, but why do some vibrations cause gear to sound pleasing and some not? Why does some vibration control make the sound sterile? These are not questions that come down to subjectionists v.s. objectionists. These are engineering questions that just aren't fully understood. The hows and whats are understood but the why what we here is sometimes pleasing and sometimes not is not fully understood.

[Victor]

Because vibrations do have an effect on solid state gear…it is less (obvious) with SS. But remember, within your SS gear are crystals, capacitors, and wires that when vibrated send out a audio signal.

Well… Bob, - the science is yet to be invented to substantiate what you saying here. To wit, - other then your personal feelings regarding this matter, nothing else can support the above statement.

I would like to point out that the crystals, capacitors or wires DO NOT SEND OUT any AUDIO SIGNAL by themselves when they are ‘vibrated’ or mechanically interacted with by any imaginable means. The components that you mentioned in your post, physically cannot do that.

I do respect your desire to somehow account for what you think you are hearing, but to assert that the mechanical vibrations create an electrical signal is like to say that you personally and physically can affect the relativistic side of nature.

You see, Bob, electrons that constitute an electrical current, or, as you put it, a signal, - cannot be physically located by humans. We cannot see them, nor can we touch them and therefore no matter how dramatically you shake that crystal or capacitor or a wire, no mechanical energy can ever be transferred to affect the behavior of an electron. Mr. Electron can exist in two places at the SAME time, so how can mechanics ever ‘know’ where to locate it and therefore affect its properties.

Short of the component mechanical failure, only when the vibration frequency begins to approach a speed of light, - then and only then there will be some truth to what you are saying.

That is where Victor missed the boat on cables.

Victor did not miss the boat. Victor is an agreement with nature.
I am not trying to account for things that I do not understand by summarily dismissing at least 150 years of accumulated knowledge on this topic.

Yes, we know how and why electrons pass through wires.

Actually we do not. We do have an idea how the process happens, but it is not fully understood.

The questions that are being investigated are why the audio signal sounds better with some shapes, types of metal, etc. which has nothing to do with the flow of electrons.

I personally would worry if I ever stumble across a “…audio signals not having anything to do with the flow of electrons…” Again, shapes have nothing to do with signals. Furthermore, nobody, - not a single reputable company anywhere in the world is investigating the effect of shapes on electrical signals. Even universities are not interested in this topic and let me tell you the universities are known for doing a truly bizarre stuff.

That they (the viabrations) cause a audio noise isn't a question, but why do some vibrations cause gear to sound pleasing and some not? Why does some vibration control make the sound sterile? These are not questions that come down to subjectionists v.s. objectionists. These are engineering questions that just aren't fully understood. The hows and whats are understood but the why what we here is sometimes pleasing and sometimes not is not fully understood.

Bob, the questions you are asking are not engineering questions. Look around, and you will very quickly prove to yourself that nobody at any reputable engineering firms is asking those questions. Only the audiophiles are asking those questions and for the most parts the audiophiles do not have the answers that they can live with.

You are, like many others, are a victim of much misinformation that the audio industry is so full off. You also do not have an appropriate understanding of how the tests must be conducted in order for the tests to show something worthwhile. You see, Bob, you are saying in effect this, -

I clearly hear the effects of cables!
Therefore, - there must be truth to what I am hearing!
I know everybody can hear what I am hearing!

Believe me, - I understand your position very well. The problem is this, - if you introduce the testing methodology that is necessary to draw those conclusions, you will discover a doubt in your ability to make those statements.

Best Regards,
Victor

[Gump]

I'm a fan of yours , Victor. I read your posts and all the techno jargon and it entertains the heck out of me. I'm mezmerized like I'm sitting in the front row listening to Elmer Gantry preaching the gospel of Engineering 101. But, unfortunately I gotta take the other side on this one.

I usually stay out of these cable debates because they have a tendency to get scrappy and also in deference to our illustrious forum owner. But here's my quick tale:


I was using the thickest gauge speaker cable I could find ( made by a well known company) and firmly believed that I was all set. My stereo guru told me I needed to up-grade and I (being a devout skeptic) scoffed at him and basically accused him of trying to soak me for extra $$. He convinced me to at least try the high end cables and told me if I wasn't impressed he'd take them back.

When my wife found out the price of this "speaker wire" she was ready to get on the phone and roll a crisis team to the house to have a psych evaluation done on me.

I played a Bonnie Raitt cd with the old wire and then, keeping the volume the same, switched to the new cables and played the same track again. I will always remember the moment I pushed that play button on my CDP.

My wife doesn't use too many expletives but when she heard the difference in the sound she looked up at me and started firing off a string of them like a salty old sailor.

You see, she not only wanted there to be no improvement in the sound, she was convinced that there would be none. She was dying to be able to look at me and tell me that there was no difference and that I got scammed. But she couldn't. She was the ultimate skeptic and yet she was and is convinced.

The improvement was that noticable and significant. It was like someone took their hand away from in front of Ms. Raitt's mouth. The music simply opened up and became clearer and fuller sounding.

I have performed this demonstration for a few other skeptics that I know who are now likewise convinced.

I know the power of suggestion is strong, but to me better cables sound better-----a lot better. I don't believe I'm the victim of an illusion. Either way I'm happy with my cables' sound and that's all that matters to me.

Sorry Victor.

[Victor]

Gump,

No need to be sorry. I’ll be the first one to congratulate you on your success with more expensive cables. If it makes your audio experience happy, then who am I to even attempt to take this away from you?

While there is no rational explanation for what you and your wife and your friends had witnessed, may I suggest that you repeat this experience under more controlled conditions? Just for kicks, - do a Blind Test! Make sure that the volume is not changed and make sure that you do not know which cable is plugged in. Ideally the switchover must be within seconds. If a longer time is allowed to pass by then our brains tend to play games with us. Do it, - and let all of us know.

Finally, I would like to offer the following thought here, - if the new cables are better, - what about no cables at all? What about placing the amps next to the speakers and using 1-2 feet of wire only? Would the cheap zip cord sounds different from a megabuck wire? If it does not, then why would 20 feet of wire sound any different? If it does, - does it sound better then a longer wire would or does it sound the same or worst? If you think about those questions, - the logic of my argument stands on its own.

Victor

[Bob]

Victor, your right. No matter how much you shake a crystal or capacitor or wire they won't put out a audio signal. Same goes for shaking a tunning fork. Although, some subjectivists would say that when the tunning fork vibrates, rather than shakes, they can hear a noise.
EE's are still struggling with all the questions raised in this thread. Mankind has figured out a lot about the physics and use of electricity and how to make decent sound reproduction but, research has hardly stopped. Fortunately, there will always be those that ignore the "common wisdom" and will push forward to make new discoveries by ignoring the people that stay in the safety zone of what has already been proved.
By the way, as a EE, you know that there already exist plenty of testing methodology that shows the relationship between impedance and capacitance of wire due to all the differences I listed. Just not why some signals sound more pleasing to people than others.
One method that will never work for audio is blind testing, even though that ultimately that is what we do once we go to a dealer and listen to the various components that we are considering. Our sense of hearing doesn't work like eyesight where subtle color changes or movements seem to be noticed quickly. Although, any police detective will disagree about even that (ex. 3 witnesses, 3 car colors given). Sometimes our hearing seems to be more accute than other times, sometimes we notice what is subtracted but not what is added. Sometimes we are listening for one thing but missing something else that when pointed out we hear clearly and consistantly. Mostly, we need to hear something for a extended period of time before we can tell if we like it or are bothered by it. When some minute thing in our system bothers us it becomes very annoying until it is changed. You just can't always tell these things in the short time that audio blind testing occurs. But, sometimes the changes are dramatic enough that you can, or if someone points you in the right direction you can tell. I don't mean something like "See how much better the bass is" but, something more along the lines of, "See if these changes influence the bass".
It seems for every component, except speakers, there is a "expert" that claims there is no difference. Wires and vibration control aren't the only subjects that seem to bring on the naysayers. There are also "experts" that think all that a CDP has to do is move 1's and 0's from the medium to the preamp and any do it equally well, and I remember another EE professor that use to post at a forum Lex and I are very familiar with that claimed the only thing that mattered in a amp was the THD number and any differences that audiophiles could hear was nonesense.
Well, could be. For all that think like that, my suggestion would be get the best speakers you can afford. Buy the cheapest portable CDP you can find, hoook it up with clothes hanger wire to the cheapest amp you can find, maybe from a auto stereo store, hook that up to the speakers with more clothes hanger wire and you're good to go.

[Alloroc]

Y'know, I really love this kind of thread. Wonder can we reach a 100 posts???

[GregLett]

I'm a fan of yours , Victor. I read your posts and all the techno jargon and it entertains the heck out of me. I'm mezmerized like I'm sitting in the front row listening to Elmer Gantry preaching the gospel of Engineering 101. But, unfortunately I gotta take the other side on this one.

I usually stay out of these cable debates because they have a tendency to get scrappy and also in deference to our illustrious forum owner. But here's my quick tale:


I was using the thickest gauge speaker cable I could find ( made by a well known company) and firmly believed that I was all set. My stereo guru told me I needed to up-grade and I (being a devout skeptic) scoffed at him and basically accused him of trying to soak me for extra $$. He convinced me to at least try the high end cables and told me if I wasn't impressed he'd take them back.

When my wife found out the price of this "speaker wire" she was ready to get on the phone and roll a crisis team to the house to have a psych evaluation done on me.

I played a Bonnie Raitt cd with the old wire and then, keeping the volume the same, switched to the new cables and played the same track again. I will always remember the moment I pushed that play button on my CDP.

My wife doesn't use too many expletives but when she heard the difference in the sound she looked up at me and started firing off a string of them like a salty old sailor.

You see, she not only wanted there to be no improvement in the sound, she was convinced that there would be none. She was dying to be able to look at me and tell me that there was no difference and that I got scammed. But she couldn't. She was the ultimate skeptic and yet she was and is convinced.

The improvement was that noticable and significant. It was like someone took their hand away from in front of Ms. Raitt's mouth. The music simply opened up and became clearer and fuller sounding.

I have performed this demonstration for a few other skeptics that I know who are now likewise convinced.

I know the power of suggestion is strong, but to me better cables sound better-----a lot better. I don't believe I'm the victim of an illusion. Either way I'm happy with my cables' sound and that's all that matters to me.

Sorry Victor.

I learned than an "upgrade" as far as cables go doesn't mean more $$$. That's a big misconception that audiophiles have.
The second misconception is that they you need to have cables that look like garden hoses.
I improved my sound by getting far less expensive cables, and my expensive were from a
well known company. I also learned that buying from a "well known company" only guaranties
that you pay more. Synergy more than $$$.

[Bob]

I learned than an "upgrade" as far as cables go doesn't mean more $$$. That's a big misconception that audiophiles have.
The second misconception is that they you need to have cables that look like garden hoses.
I improved my sound by getting far less expensive cables, and my expensive were from a
well known company. I also learned that buying from a "well known company" only guaranties
that you pay more. Synergy more than $$$.

How right you are, especially about size. I would add, that of all the improvements that you can make in your system, cables would be the last component to test out. First and foremost work on speaker placement and room treatments, no cable can make the kind of improvements those two things do.

[GregLett]

How right you are, especially about size. I would add, that of all the improvements that you can make in your system, cables would be the last component to test out. First and foremost work on speaker placement and room treatments, no cable can make the kind of improvements those two things do.

Yep. My biggest leaps were made with, CD player, and speaker upgrade. The speaker upgrade was the most significant.

[Bob]

I just wanted to add that I'm glad that so far this thread hasn't really been shut down. I know these kinds of debates are nothing new but, as long as they remain civil there is always the hope that something new will be learned.
Some things wont change. If you have to have someone give you a scientific answer before you beleive your senses then you will gain nothing from the discussion. If you insist that one of your senses tell you something that can't be proved or repeated on a fairly regular bases then you probably also won't gain anything from the discussions. And I am not passing judgement. What matters is that you are getting the most enjoyment out of your hobby, no matter how you are approaching it.
I am in the middle of the two. If my senses tell me that sometimes there is day and sometimes there is night I like to find out the scientific answer as to why. I wouldn't ignore it until someone comes up with a reason why there is day and night and then observe it. One thing that I do differ on from most people is that I beleive that we are like all the other animals on earth. We are limited to what we can understand. We have great reasoning powers, so much so that we think that all answers will come eventually. But, I don't think so. Do we know for a fact that there aren't other dimensions that our senses and brains aren't designed to know about? Is our reasoning limited by what we are familiar with, for example all that we observe in nature and what we know about the universe has always had a beginning and a end. Does that mean we don't have the senses or brain power to understand something with no begining and no end? Are there other ways of thinking other than cognitive that exist but, not possible with our physical makeup? I think about these things and beleive that we have limits but are proud of the rapid advancements in understanding that have been made in the last century that we don't beleive we have limits.

[Alloroc]

I learned than an "upgrade" as far as cables go doesn't mean more $$$. That's a big misconception that audiophiles have.
The second misconception is that they you need to have cables that look like garden hoses.
I improved my sound by getting far less expensive cables, and my expensive were from a
well known company. I also learned that buying from a "well known company" only guaranties
that you pay more. Synergy more than $$$.

Hi,

Can't say that I agree. I believe that an audiophile is, well obsessed and will obsessivly approach the purchace of each additional item to their setup with a lot of thought, research and listening. If you simply buy new stuff without properly researching your purchace - caveat emptor - you can't complain when you feel you've been ripped off.

I've also said this before, the guy with a €1000 setup is no less of an audiophile that the guy with a €50000 set up.

This all applies IMO to both subjectivists and objectivists.

It's also relative. If you have a pair of Wilson MAXX speakers, are you going hook them up with a pair of €200 cables? Possible but unlikely.

And again, not all cable, particularly high end cable looks like gaden hose - some do of course, but not all. Not mentioning names of course, but I have a pair of interconnects that are no thicker than bellwire(not made from bell wire you understand!).

We all have or had to go through the education process - learning how to listen to the music, not just hear it. To identify what cable/interconnect/CDP/amp etc. works better for them. To upgrade, then downgrade then upgrade again and so on.

An audiophile is the guy that knows that the cheaper, less well known cable brand might just very well be the much better cable than the more expensive better known brand. He knows, because he's learned the hard way.

If anyone buys into the misconceptions as you describe above, they can't really claim to be audiophiles. I'll say it again - caveat emptor.

Actually, that's an interesting question, if you had a pair of €50k Wilson speakers(just pretend, like), how much would you be prepared to spend on the right cable? Intersted to hear from all.

[GregLett]

Hi,

Can't say that I agree. I believe that an audiophile is, well obsessed and will obsessivly approach the purchace of each additional item to their setup with a lot of thought, research and listening. If you simply buy new stuff without properly researching your purchace - caveat emptor - you can't complain when you feel you've been ripped off.


This is true for some audiophiles, too many look at price first.

I've also said this before, the guy with a €1000 setup is no less of an audiophile that the guy with a €50000 set up.

I agree wit you there. But I've run into the guy that thinks someone insn't
and "audiophile' because his system isn't expensive enough.

This all applies IMO to both subjectivists and objectivists.

It's also relative. If you have a pair of Wilson MAXX speakers, are you going hook them up with a pair of €200 cables? Possible but unlikely.

I would. Ther's is that price think again

And again, not all cable, particularly high end cable looks like gaden hose - some do of course, but not all. Not mentioning names of course, but I have a pair of interconnects that are no thicker than bellwire(not made from bell wire you understand!).

I do I do

We all have or had to go through the education process - learning how to listen to the music, not just hear it. To identify what cable/interconnect/CDP/amp etc. works better for them. To upgrade, then downgrade then upgrade again and so on.

An audiophile is the guy that knows that the cheaper, less well known cable brand might just very well be the much better cable than the more expensive better known brand. He knows, because he's learned the hard way.

If anyone buys into the misconceptions as you describe above, they can't really claim to be audiophiles. I'll say it again - caveat emptor.

Actually, that's an interesting question, if you had a pair of €50k Wilson speakers(just pretend, like), how much would you be prepared to spend on the right cable? Intersted to hear from all.

With what I've learned, No more than $300. I don't think big $$ cables = better performance.

[Gump]

I also would like to thank the moderators for giving this thread a little extra leash. Typically the ancient "cable debate" is an exercise in futility. Kind of like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

However, I believe it's worthwhile if it generates interest in people to experiment and investigate for themselves to determine which camp to pledge their allegiance.

If we all agreed on every aspect of this hobby there might be a little more harmony but it would also be a bit boring as well. Sometimes a difference of opinion adds a little spice to the mix. That is, as long as we adhere to the Marquis of Queensbury rules and keep everything above the belt.

My curiousity is piqued enough that one day I will set up a "blind test" to resolve this issue (for me anyway). With a 3 yr old and an 11 month old governing my world right now babysitting pretty much takes up all my free time. Experimenting might have to wait awhile....
I do remember that Coke vs Pepsi blind test a few years ago though. Regardless of which one you preferred there was no argument that a difference did exist. Bad analogy, I know.

[Chris D]

Actually, I just monitor this thread because I think you all are funny and I'm amused at how much people are spun up by this thread.

Talk on, my friends. Talk on.

[GregLett]

Actually, I just monitor this thread because I think you all are funny and I'm amused at how much people are spun up by this thread.

Talk on, my friends. Talk on.

So are you going to join us at the round table???

[Alaric]

Very well said , Karma. You , too Chris! Maybe the two sides get a little closer every time we discuss the differences......

Or maybe I'm just an optimist :W

[David Meek]

I also would like to thank the moderators for giving this thread a little extra leash.

Oh, we're watching - don't worry. :B

Seriously though, you guys do give me hope that on occasion we can have good meaty discussions on "hot button" issues like without resorting to flames, childishness, etc. Carry on troops.

[peterS]

Gump,

While there is no rational explanation f
Victor

actually, skin effect is most likely to be the most profound, the ear is very perceptive to acoustics in the time domain, pretty bad in terms of SPL
i am assuming that the wire he used utilized a litz config at least

for me litz speaker wire made the difference between just bass to actual drums... it was cheaper too

for low level interconnects inductance capacitance, resistance all become of equal importance, along with noise rejection

where as certain geometries in highlevel wires (speaker) can help suppress the interference they create

then there is video :E

to me cables are like modding a car
would you put a k&n filter on a 82 Taurus... probably more pressing issues
a ford f350... sure, maybe more
a porche.... probably a turbo

common sense can be lacking on both sides of the argument

now to rotate my banana plugs...

[GregLett]

actually, skin effect is most likely to be the most profound, the ear is very perceptive to acoustics in the time domain, pretty bad in terms of SPL
i am assuming that the wire he used utilized a litz config at least

for me litz speaker wire made the difference between just bass to actual drums... it was cheaper too

for low level interconnects inductance capacitance, resistance all become of equal importance, along with noise rejection

where as certain geometries in highlevel wires (speaker) can help suppress the interference they create

then there is video :E

to me cables are like modding a car
would you put a k&n filter on a 82 Taurus... probably more pressing issues
a ford f350... sure, maybe more
a porche.... probably a turbo

common sense can be lacking on both sides of the argument

now to rotate my banana plugs...

Now what's with those cable elevators?

[peterS]

yes... not sure i understand how they help... looks like stands that came with my hydrolic jack... felt it was apropriate for the metaphore :rofl:

[Alloroc]

....Or like like they belong in the Winter Olympics.....

[Victor]

actually, skin effect is most likely to be the most profound, the ear is very perceptive to acoustics in the time domain, pretty bad in terms of SPL

Skin effect does nothing at audio frequencies. The additional resistance due to the skin effect is so negligible that it is only important on the theoretical level.

i am assuming that the wire he used utilized a litz config at least

for me litz speaker wire made the difference between just bass to actual drums... it was cheaper too

for low level interconnects inductance capacitance, resistance all become of equal importance, along with noise rejection

where as certain geometries in highlevel wires (speaker) can help suppress the interference they create

Litz wire is always a good way to go. However, its benefits are only important if we are talking about the speaker wire carrying significant current and for a significant distance, otherwise Litz or not, - it makes no difference. I am assuming a good power amp here wish a well controlled output impedance and a reasonably well behaved (resistive) speaker impedance. Otherwise Lutz wire construction may have a more pronounced and overall positive effect. Well, - these days most power amps are quite good in those regards but the speakers is another matter…

The low-level interconnects do not reject noise. Let me be more specific, - wire in general does not reject anything including the noise. It is the electronic circuits that are attached to the wire on both ends are responsible for noise rejection. The wire with better shielding and/or construction will contribute more to the overall noise rejection, but ultimately its contribution is negligible vis-à-vis what the electronics does.

Finally the geometry of wire does not contribute in any meaningful sense at the audio frequencies. The nature of electron transmission has nothing to do with geometry of the medium at low frequencies, - at least up to hundreds of megahertz, - such as nature as it is.

then there is video

to me cables are like modding a car
would you put a k&n filter on a 82 Taurus...

Depends, - I still have my '92 5-spd. SHO…although I have not driven for a few years…