Are expensive wires and interconnects necessary

[comeup]

I've spent a couple of grand or so on my interconnects and wires. My audio/video system is worth 20k roughly. I have been playing around with a lot of connections lately and don't hear much if any difference at all between expensive/inexpensive interconnects. when I say inexpensive/expensive I'm talking about 50-100 dollar pair of interconnects compared to 250-500 pairs. I had my son switch some interconnects around for me while I listened and to be honest I don't hear a difference. Don't get me wrong my system sounds great, but I feel like I got ripped off with interconnects. I do hear a difference with speaker wire actually a big difference. There are some good articles at www.audioholics.com on this subject that I agree with. I think Monster, Audioquest and a lot of others have great marketing and are over charging us for something that we can get for a lot less. Am I the only one that feels like I got (beat) comments please.


P.S. I also feel that biwire is a scammmm too.

[mike c]

at least you were objective enough to experiment. not like other people who will swear they hear a difference when they actually don't.

[Alloroc]

at least you were objective enough to experiment. not like other people who will swear they hear a difference when they actually don't.

With respect, how do you know they don't hear a difference?

[Bob]

My experience has been that most of the interconnects sold, in most systems, can be swapped back and forth without any change in the sound. Not all, however. And, unfortunatly, the ones that I have heard that did cause a improvement are very expensive. Plus, the improvements I have heard are very, very, slight. Not something you would miss if it wasn't there. I wouldn't have speant the money I did on interconnects and speaker cables if there wasn't a benifit. I just wouldn't make the comments we often read, "my jaw dropped", "startling", "like a veil was removed", etc.
One of my friends just opened a new brick and morter store and came back from CES with a large collection of cables and power cords from both upstart companies and well established ones. For the second time now three of us sat down and had a boring evening of cable swapping so that he could determine which wire companies he wanted to be a rep for. We did the same thing last year. We used two systems, a Krell/Von Sweikert based system and a Audio Research/ Vandersteen 5A based system. For two years in a row we picked the same three interconnects that we felt improved the sound. We didn't run across any that seemed to degrade the sound. Remember, I said in most systems (mine included). There are those audiophiles that like stereo systems that are extremely detailed. In those systems even the smallest changes can be readily heard. However, they are so unrealistically detailed (bright and etched) that I find them unlistenable.

[mike c]

With respect, how do you know they don't hear a difference?

they kinda fall into the same group of people that say the magic pebbles on the CD player made the sound a whole lot better.

(of course this is assuming the original cables were "sufficient" in the first place)

[Karma]

There are those audiophiles that like stereo systems that are extremely detailed. In those systems even the smallest changes can be readily heard. However, they are so unrealistically detailed (bright and etched) that I find them unlistenable.

HI Bob,
I can't argue with your experience and you sound like an objective listener. I must say though that I don't think your experience is universal. I will use my own case as an example.

My system incorporates the Audio Research D250 MkII Servo power amp and the SP-11 MkII preamp tube electronics (both with updated designer capacitors) driving Martin Logan CLSIIA electrostatics. This system is detailed and clear to a fault but it is not bright or etched. You would be justified in thinking that I am just defending my own choices. However, everyone knowledgable and experienced who has heard this system agrees with my evaluation of its sound. I have used this system for a cable test bed because of these qualities. It is capable of showing the most minute cable differences.

This is a case where using great cables definitely pays off. In my case, I designed my own speaker cables and interconnects. I was fortunate to have a professional relationship with the largest hi fi shop in this area. This gave me access to a huge variety of good to great cables for audition and comparison on my system. It was an eye opener.

Probably the most surprising thing I learned is that there are no magic bullet cables. I found all cables to be very system dependent. Since I was only concerned with my system, what sounded good on my system guided my choices. The bad news is the best sounding cables tended to be the most expensive. More bad news: there is a huge dose of snake oil out in them thar woods. Be wary. I modified my cable designs to exceed the performance of the best I listened to. In the end, I chose to use my designs because I thought they were the best of the bunch.

I can only advise that the prospective cable buyer audition the candidate cables on their own system at home using the equipment they normally use. Do not let others influence you. This is a very personal experience. Trust your ears! It is difficult listening and requires a huge amount of patience. It will be a learning experience and in the end, you will probably be an advocate of good cables and be a much better critical listener.

Sparky

Edited to Add:
When it comes to testing methodology, I forgot to mention some things. When evaluating interconnects be sure the whole signal path is connected with the same brand and model cable. This may also apply to speaker cables since each cable desiger, if they know what they are doing, is trying to achieve a "system" sound. Speaker cables, however, are very different beasts than interconnects and getting the two to match is sometimes elusive for the designer. The effects of cables tend to be accumulative. For example, if you are listening to music, you might have the analog output from a CD player going to a preamp which in turn drives a power amplifier. You need two pair of interconnect cables plus, perhaps, matching speaker cables. Make sure they are all the same if you can.

Some folks attempt to mix and match cables to achieve a particular sound. They tend to think of cables as long, skinny, tone controls. I have not found this approach to be successful. Unmatched cables tend to result in one cable hiding the strong points of the other cables. You end up with a set of cables that are not optimized for any of the cables in the set. You might want to try this after you have discovered the cables you like. In general, I don't like this approach.

Next, and this is very important, your goal may not be perfect sound but rather a sound that you like. Everybody's sonic tastes are different. As you gain more experience with high end equipment and critical listening you will develop your own tastes. Cables that feed that taste will be your choice.

That's all folks. Good luck on your cable journey.

[Lex]

First, I won't go to Audioholics, as I do not support that site personally. Did you get ripped off? Maybe you did, it's possible. This is really the basis for my company, CAT. We market products comparing favorably to products in the 250-500.00 range, and we sell them for a lot less than our competition. Most people don't believe it, except my customers, that come back time and time again when they realize the value they are actually getting. Wires and cables can make a difference, if they are the right ones. Are there points of diminishing returns? Certainly there are. Are there systems that don't warrant more than lamp cord for speaker wire, and out of the box interconnects? Judgement call. Some would argue that hey, regardless of the quality of my system, I don't want it to be somehow handicapped by cheap connections. Others might say, well you won't hear a difference anyway. Some might say, well maybe the 100.00 interconnects are to much for my system now, but someday I plan to upgrade my system, and when I do, I can still use these cables without a need to upgrade.

So, there are all sorts of positions to take on this. One thing is for certain, the larger the company, the larger the overhead. The more marketing oriented a company? the more overhead built into their products. This is where we take a lot of cost away from products, by not having the large overhead.

As to bi-wire. I never tell customers, you will definitely hear a difference. I tell them it's a judgement call, that you may or may not hear a difference. But the higher quality your system, the greater chance it could make a difference. I leave the choice to them, I never try to oversell it. Frankly, I'd as soon make singles anyway, a lot less hassle. but I build what the customer wants. Trust your ears and your pocketbook, is a good guide for decision making.

Doug

[Alloroc]

they kinda fall into the same group of people that say the magic pebbles on the CD player made the sound a whole lot better.

(of course this is assuming the original cables were "sufficient" in the first place)

Hi Mike,

The world of audiophile HiFi is completely subjective and relative, as in one set of human ears prefers the way an amp, CD, pair of speakers, set of cable sounds to a different set of human ears, you simply can'y fairly state that another human can or cannot tell the difference between different cables or interconnects.

There is a whole industry out there, making cables of all kinds to suit all pockets, Doug being one of them. Magic pebbles on the otherhand..... well you know what I'm saying.

As Sparky said, trust your ears. If a €500 pair of cables sound no different to €100 cables, happy days. But if they do sound different and in your opinion better, again great. As I said it's all subjective. That's the fun of HiFi and HiHT for that matter!

[mike c]

I agree about subjectivity, I always said if it makes a person happier about their setup ... even the pebbles are ok by me (if they cost just like real pebbles). heck I would buy the "expensive" cables if I run out of stuff to upgrade in my HT setup.

[Alaric]

I beg to differ

I only have $3200 tied up in my modest system , (SACD/CD player , integrated amp and speakers). I was using $115 pair of WireWorld interconnects and decided to try some of CAT's cables. Yeah-I noticed a difference . A good bit more detail , and it does not sound "bright". I got a noticeable change ( and to my ears , improvement) from roughly the same cost . I also got much better connectors . My wife is tone deaf and she noticed delicate little bits of some tracks she hadn't heard before. I'm a believer. Is there snake oil with RCA plugs out there ? Most assuredly (think M*ter) . That doesn't diminish real quality pieces.
There was , in fact , some real concern over the new cables making the sound bright or harsh. I talked it over with Doug (at CAT) and decided to try the new cables and see what happens. If they weren't to my liking I had many options to consider . Another advantage to a quality cable company-customer service. That alone may make you think it sounds better . Seriously , try some CAT cables after you read some comments from users. If you still think it's a scam , or your system doesn't produce the SQ for it to matter , Doug is real easy to work with.
Bi-wiring? I'm risking a whole lot of debate on this , but it seems to work for me. It didn't increase the bass output , but made it harder to find the subwoofer - which I don't have. In my room (always a factor) bi-wiring my speakers definitely opened up the soundstage. The bass no longer sounded like it was aimed at me from the speakers , more like I was sitting in it. My $.02

[aud19]

I have to agree with the good quality wires = good... but obscenely priced wires are a bit silly IMO and are probably one of the best examples of diminishing returns

I believe Doug's company is a prime example of the cost/quality zone people with decent-quality systems should aim for. Less would possibly negatively effect reproduction and more is not likely to gain you much if anything.

[gd]

What's expensive?

We indulge in this hobby on many levels.

Regardless of your resources, anyone who builds a sound system should do their homework... browse the forums... and ask to audition cables at home when / if possible (even if it's unlikely).

Then at some point you jump in and experiment... the reality is you will probably get unexpected results, good and bad... you might have to re-sell cables at a loss if you detect differences... there are too many variables to make blanket statements as to which cable choices to make.

In a hobby with such subjective goals, you ultimately need to buy-n-try.

A rule of thumb that I kinda like is: set aside 5-10% of your system budget on cables... that works particularly well on the modest side of the budget spectrum (me, for example)... if you've got the bucks and the interest, I say experiment -- and report your findings back here...

Or you can make it easy on yourself and just call Doug at CATcables.

[comeup]

I Have mostly Van Den Hal and Audioquest averaging 250 per pair and then I have some Tara Labs averaging 125 a pair that I use for my rears on a surround setup. I had my son switch cables around not telling me which ones were hooked up and I chose Tara Labs at lease 4 or 5 times out of 10 tries. We did this test in a two channel setup consisting a Rotel RB 1080 power amp, Rotel pre RC 1070,Rotel cd player RCD 1070 and a pair of B&W 602 S3s. I will be trying the same test with a pair of Kef 201s that I have in my HT setup. Sometimes I wonder if my mine is playing tricks on me, because I swore those Van Del Hals' sounded better when I bought them. About a year ago I bought a pair of Audioquest interconnects I forgot the name of the rca, but they were in the 250 dollar range and I did notice a difference with those interconnects and it was a negative one. I took those back, down graded to the cobras that were actually better. The less expensive cable sounded better. I'm not saying we are crazy for spending alot of money on cables because I would never put cheap ones on any of my setups but I don't think expensive is always better.

[Victor]

Subjective reasons aside, the ‘wire’ in general will not change your ‘audio life’. There is no technical reason to be found that would even remotely suggest otherwise.

Wire, when appropriately selected in terms of its gauge and insulation, does not affect a single electric parameter commonly associated with audio signal reproduction. Therefore if one ‘hears’ the wire, - such experience is absolutely unverifiable and will never stand up to the technical scrutiny.

Having said that, - it is your money in the end of this road, so it is your decision that actually counts. Personally, for instance, I will never spend more then 30 cents per foot on the speaker wire.

Regards,
Victor

[wkhanna]

I prefer the 10% rule.....along with trusted and reputable advice, I will assume it should prove adequate to produce near 98% of the available performance from a mid-level system. And it remains relative to the price of the system. I can understand those with the available budget spending $500 on interconnects when you have a +10K system. Who would put recap tires on a Porsche?

I do have some background in EMI and EMF, plasma physics and high-energy physics from my years as an R&D technician designing and fault testing (up to 500Kv circuit breakers and fuses) power distribution equipment, so I always did take this audio cable snake oil circus with all of its 'theory' and 'perceived' differences, as opposed to measured effect (show me the numbers!), with a grain of salt.

Some might find this site interesting: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...io/Analog.html

BTW, after experience with the mass market (M*) brand of cable, research and the feedback from Doug's customers has compelled me to purchase his product in the very near future.

[Alaric]

Victor , since a knotted pig colon will hold 12 ounces of beer does that mean a bottle isn't necessary to enjoy your beverage? I had some positively huge bulk speaker cable and upon replacing it with something better , and smaller diameter , the difference WAS noticeable. Honest. If all we went by was specs bumblebees couldn't fly.

[gd]

Mmmmmmmm... knotted pig colon...

[Victor]

Victor , since a knotted pig colon will hold 12 ounces of beer does that mean a bottle isn't necessary to enjoy your beverage? I had some positively huge bulk speaker cable and upon replacing it with something better , and smaller diameter , the difference WAS noticeable. Honest. If all we went by was specs bumblebees couldn't fly.

Alaric,

It is difficult to comment on the effect of the pig’s colon on beer, but I assure you that haggis tastes the same no matter what or whose skin is used.

Now that we put this to rest, let me state that I am happy that you found a personal nirvana in a more expensive wire. The concept that you need to internalize, other then the effect of pigs innards on beer, is that the wire is a signal transmission medium – that’s all it is. Wire does not get created like painting or a musical composition, i.e. it needs no artistic involvement in its creation. For instance, - wire does not add ‘transparency’, or takes away ‘air’, or adds ‘substance’ or what-have –you. Those terms are reserved for purely subjective evaluation of objects created by an artist.

Therefore, whatever the new wire does for you, I guarantee you, that it can be explained in a simple and straightforward manner using a well known concepts that come from physics.

Do you still think that the bottle will add anything to the composition of the beer?

Naturally it would not, but your perception will feel the void of your imagination. It is kind of like creating an illusion for oneself and then evolving this illusion into a believe system.

Mr. Electron will negotiate the wire regardless if the wire is made out of copper, silver or kryptonite. Electron does not care. It will also traverse the length of a wire with a light speed, - warp one! If your wire is too thin, then you may hear, although unlikely, a resulting high frequency drop in amplitude. Some Golden Ears call it a less bright and more substantive sound. If you wire is too thick, then it simply takes too much room on the carpet and does nothing else. As far as audio is concerned this is all the physics that one needs to know about the wire.

With this in mind I recommend you try a hanger from your closet in place of your wire. Make sure you file off the ends. I guarantee that you will find your next favorite, as many did to their dismay.

regards,
Victor

P.S. Do you really think that we don't know why the bumblebee can fly?

[GregLett]

With this in mind I recommend you try a hanger from your closet in place of your wire. Make sure you file off the ends. I guarantee that you will find your next favorite, as many did to their dismay.

regards,
Victor

I can tell you that for laughs I tried wire that looked like standard 12gage copper wire, dressed up in a clear red insulation. I was cheap so I figured why not, after all I have expensive cables, let me see just how bad this cable is
compared to my cable. AND TO MY DISMAY IT ACTUALLY SOUND BETTER
THAN THE EXPENSIVE CABLES! That was the end of my" got to have the expensive cable"
mentality. Right now I've found the best cable for my setup at around $400 for the full set interconnects
and speaker. and they are much better the the $2,200 set I had before. Never again will I spend big bucks
on cables!

[wkhanna]

Alaric,

Do you still think that the bottle will add anything to the composition of the beer?

Have you ever had a sip of wine from a Riedel wine glass?
The contour of the vessel, texture and dimension of the rim, wall thickness of the bowl, the care and craftsmanship of hand blown glass. The way the diameter of the rim effects how the fragrance is delivered to your nose. These are just a few of the features that supposedly affect your “perception” of the wine.

Can you tell a difference?
Maybe it all depends on how much wine you drink.
Can it make Mad Dog taste like an exotic Pino Noir?
Maybe it all depends on WHY you drink wine.


Edit: brings a whole new dimension to A vs. B testing!

[Andrew M Ward]

First, I won't go to Audioholics, as I do not support that site personally. Did you get ripped off? Maybe you did, it's possible. This is really the basis for my company, CAT. We market products comparing favorably to products in the 250-500.00 range, and we sell them for a lot less than our competition. Most people don't believe it, except my customers, that come back time and time again when they realize the value they are actually getting. Wires and cables can make a difference, if they are the right ones. Are there points of diminishing returns? Certainly there are. Are there systems that don't warrant more than lamp cord for speaker wire, and out of the box interconnects? Judgement call. Some would argue that hey, regardless of the quality of my system, I don't want it to be somehow handicapped by cheap connections. Others might say, well you won't hear a difference anyway. Some might say, well maybe the 100.00 interconnects are to much for my system now, but someday I plan to upgrade my system, and when I do, I can still use these cables without a need to upgrade.

So, there are all sorts of positions to take on this. One thing is for certain, the larger the company, the larger the overhead. The more marketing oriented a company? the more overhead built into their products. This is where we take a lot of cost away from products, by not having the large overhead.

As to bi-wire. I never tell customers, you will definitely hear a difference. I tell them it's a judgement call, that you may or may not hear a difference. But the higher quality your system, the greater chance it could make a difference. I leave the choice to them, I never try to oversell it. Frankly, I'd as soon make singles anyway, a lot less hassle. but I build what the customer wants. Trust your ears and your pocketbook, is a good guide for decision making.

Doug

Not to blow smoke up any asses or arbitrarily agree with Lex, which I almost never do (although a lot more lately I’ve noticed) all of the above quote is a kind of cool moderation and wisdom ...

all the A~B~X testing in the world has been done, with arguable results (still to this day)

I buy high grade cable for a whole bunch of reasons, none of which should matter to anybody else...

that said:
It's never a bad investment in your system or piece of mind, I mean really, if you can spend $129 on a tennis shoe that will last a year why would spending $200 on an interconnect that lasts forever seem silly?

Man, we spend $550 on plane tickets without a second thought, think of what that buys you, bring your camera and take some pictures, because once you pass through security and walk out of the terminal that money is officially gone.

This whole perspective (plane tickets tennis shoes and interconnects) makes cables seem like a good investment to me, of course I am probably insane and largely despised on the forum...

Just 2 cents

[Andrew M Ward]

Have you ever had a sip of wine from a Riedel wine glass?
The contour of the vessel, texture and dimension of the rim, wall thickness of the bowl, the care and craftsmanship of hand blown glass. The way the diameter of the rim effects how the fragrance is delivered to your nose. These are just a few of the features that supposedly effect your “perception” of the wine.

Can you tell a difference?
Maybe it all depends on how much wine you drink.
Can it make Mad Dog taste like an exotic Pino Noir?
Maybe it all depends on WHY you drink wine.

Whoever you are, I giggled... and then ran to the wine rack!
(nice post)

[GregLett]

I'm all out of wine :cry:

[wkhanna]

I'm all out of wine :cry:

I was actualy having a Yinglng Black & Tan out of a pig's A$$ when I posted!

[comeup]

I can tell you that for laughs I tried wire that looked like standard 12gage copper wire, dressed up in a clear red insulation. I was cheap so I figured why not, after all I have expensive cables, let me see just how bad this cable is
compared to my cable. AND TO MY DISMAY IT ACTUALLY SOUND BETTER
THAN THE EXPENSIVE CABLES! That was the end of my" got to have the expensive cable"
mentality. Right now I've found the best cable for my setup at around $400 for the full set interconnects
and speaker. and they are much better the the $2,200 set I had before. Never again will I spend big bucks
on cables!

GregLett
Funny how things turn out I have a co-worker that has romex coming from his walls to his Mcintosh speakers coming from his Mcintosh pre/power and it sounds great. I mean it sounds real good. Hard to believe but its true.

[Andrew M Ward]

I was actualy having a Yinglng Black & Tan out of a pig's A$$ when I posted!

God Bless you then!






(or now)


I'm gazing at a tall glass of Boddingtons and holding the new "Spoon" CD Gimme Fiction (brilliant) and lovingly glancing at my Classe' stack ~ pondering the moments to come...


By-By,,,,

[WillyD]

Have you ever had a sip of wine from a Riedel wine glass?
The contour of the vessel, texture and dimension of the rim, wall thickness of the bowl, the care and craftsmanship of hand blown glass. The way the diameter of the rim effects how the fragrance is delivered to your nose. These are just a few of the features that supposedly affect your “perception” of the wine.

Can you tell a difference?
Maybe it all depends on how much wine you drink.
Can it make Mad Dog taste like an exotic Pino Noir?
Maybe it all depends on WHY you drink wine.


Edit: brings a whole new dimension to A vs. B testing!

That sounds great and all, but what does it have to do with Mr Electron and speaker wire? :rofl:

[Alaric]

ok,ok,ok...

I will try the hanger. I will not try the porcine organs. I'm not very good with metaphors ops:
I have to ask , with no wise-guy crap at all , you're saying the composition of the metal in the cable can have no effect on the energy that has been passed through it? How come hospitals use power conditioners for sensitve electronics ? Is it just to regulate spikes ? Does "oxygen-free" really mean anything or is it just a way the reduce the resistance of a given diameter/length wire? Or does it just mean it will resist oxydation/degradation for a longer period of time? Finally , why don't amplifiers consist of just a regulator to feed the speakers 110 VAC? Does speaker design/cost warrant all the stuff between the wall outlet and voice coils?
I shall now shut up and try to learn a thing or ten. :blink:

P.S. I was actually just thinking the vessel can have an effect on the taste based on it's composition , and having been led to believe (by an entire industry) that wire composition can have an effect on it's ability to output the exact same signal it received , without degradation. :scratchhead:

[bigburner]

Claims that interconnects and speaker wires effect the sound of a hi-fi system regrettably comply with sign 4 of The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science by Professor Robert L. Park:

4. Evidence for a discovery is anecdotal. If modern science has learned anything in the past century, it is to distrust anecdotal evidence. Because anecdotes have a very strong emotional impact, they serve to keep superstitious beliefs alive in an age of science. The most important discovery of modern medicine is not vaccines or antibiotics, it is the randomized double-blind test, by means of which we know what works and what doesn't. Contrary to the saying, "data" is not the plural of "anecdote."

Why is it that we have science that can detect planets at the outer limits of the galaxy, we can detect substances in solution less than 1 part in a billion, and we can detect particles that are smaller than Mr Electron but we have no science that can detect the difference between two speaker cables? Claims about speaker cables and interconnects are 100% anecdotal and a randomized double-blind test confirms every time that the differences are in the mind of the listener (none of which will change any of the opinions submitted to this forum!).

[Bob]

If getting electrons from one place to another was the only job IC's and speaker cables had then there would be no need for anything better than zip cord. In audio they also need to keep unwanted noise out, and yes, I understand that this has more to do with shielding than the wire. Also, wire that doesn't oxidize is desirable.
As to why some cables sound different than others, I have no idea. But, they do. Do all cables sound different from one another, no. Do all expensive cables sound better than inexpensive cables, no. When they do sound different, is it dramatic, no. The one interconnect that can be most crucial is a phono cable. That is one cable that even I can hear a difference, at least in regards to noise v.s. quiet. For some reason it can be especially sensitive to radio signals interference and emf.
As to double blind tests, good for some things not for audio. Here is a good example why. We can all hear the difference between stereo and mono, agreed? Stereo is more holographic and when done right you can place where the instruments are in space, agreed? Last year I was at a very good audio store to see if the owner wanted to go for a bike ride later on. The rep from Audio Research happened to be there and while I was there a couple of more people I knew dropped in. So, since we were all there we listened to some music using the new 610 amps. About 4 songs played before any of us noticed that only the left speaker was working, actually one of us noticed. Eventually we would have all noticed but, after how much music? Our audio sense, while acute, seems to be a little more sluggish than our sense of sight or smell. That is why I don't think DB works in audio.

[Victor]

If getting electrons from one place to another was the only job IC's and speaker cables had then there would be no need for anything better than zip cord.

There no ‘if’ here, - the zip cord of an appropriate gauge is all you ever need. Even the low power interconnects can be made out of a zip cord with absolutely no problems. It is not the best way or the most convenient way to do it, but it is every bit as good as a more conventional low power wire.

The IC’s one and only job is to move the electrons around in a designed manner. Trust me; - I spend nearly 10 years of my life in the IC design business, particularly those that can also be used in audio applications.

In audio they also need to keep unwanted noise out, and yes, I understand that this has more to do with shielding than the wire. Also, wire that doesn't oxidize is desirable.

Wire does not oxidize. Let me rephrase this, - the wire that does oxidize, you do not want to use anyway. This is why we do not use coat hangers, because most of them do oxidize, otherwise it would be impossible to construct an intelligent argument against the use of coat hangers in audio on sound quality grounds along.

Wire itself does not keep the ‘noise out’. The appropriate use of wire however does, - I hope you see the difference. With this in mind, - any wire, when appropriately used, can very successfully keep the noise out. Yes, the shielding is important, - but, what does the shielding has to do with the wire? Can I shield the zip cord? Yes I can!

As to why some cables sound different than others, I have no idea. But, they do.

Good point, - indeed you have no idea.

Perhaps then the logical thing to do would be to ask people who might suggest a plausible explanation as to why you think that the wires do have the sound.

I suggest one out of a million possibilities, - the sound you think you hear may not have anything to do with wires, - it may have to do with how the wire interacts with a component it is plugged in to. If the wire is selected inappropriately, then this interaction may be audible, but a wire with a correct gauge and type will cause absolutely no ill effects and be inaudible, - coat hangers do apply.

The one interconnect that can be most crucial is a phono cable. That is one cable that even I can hear a difference, at least in regards to noise v.s. quiet. For some reason it can be especially sensitive to radio signals interference and emf.

It is not ”…for some reason…” – there IS a reason!

What you hear has nothing to do with a cable, - it has to do with a fact that the phono output is noisy to begin with due to a marginal S/N capability of a phono system in general. Furthermore, the phono cartridge is of a differential nature. However, traditionally a single ended circuit and a single conductor wire is used to pick up the phono output. This single-ended wire acts as an antenna and here you have EM interference and also this interface would also cause the noise to be poorly suppressed and you will hear it.

When this interface is properly implemented then it works well and a $10 Radio Shack interconnect of any kind, including the coat hanger type will do. Wire is not at fault here at all.

As to double blind tests, good for some things not for audio. Here is a good example why…

I am sorry the example you gave does not show what you intend to show. What you shown is that you could not tell stereo from mono. That does not disqualify the Blind Test methodology. It shows only that your (and mine!) ears are inadequate instruments to based the opinion on.

Blind Tests would however show that the scientific approach to measurement of audio gear is the only way to tell one ‘box’ from another ‘box’. To date, no tests, - Blind or otherwise, have ever shown the superiority of one wire over the other for audio purposes. With this in mind, I direct you to the post #29 in this tread.

Regards,
Victor

[Alaric]

the wire that does oxidize, you do not want to use anyway

Ummmmm.....Copper DOES oxidize-it's the green stuff that shows up on battery cable terminals and inside automotive connectors. Copper being a pretty common wire material , what gives?
Honestly , I'm not trying to be difficult.You seem to have a hell of a lot more knowledge and experience than me on the subject-I'm willing to learn. I still don't understand power conditioners based on your explanations. :scratchhead:

[Victor]

Alaric,

Perhaps I should be more specific. Cooper in its free state does not really exist. The thing layer of oxide covers the copper layer. Once this is formed no further oxidation is happening on any appreciable scale. The shield also helps matters. The overall resistivity of copper is theoretically negatively effected by oxidation, but its overall effects are mitigated by the gauge of the wire. So, - in the end, copper wire does not really effected by oxidation process at all. It is true in a practical sense for audio purposes for sure.

The power conditioning is another story all together and it is not a topic of this thread. However, briefly I will comment, - considering the state of the engineering of modern audio equipment, - YOU DO NOT NEED THEM AT ALL. By modern I mean the past 20-25 years. With this in mind, the status of the wire is irrelevant.

[wkhanna]

The last thing I want to do is interject Assumption into this thread, and it probably has no relevance to audio cables, but as I remember, Silver Oxide is actually More conductive than "pure" silver.

I'll go do my research now.

[Alaric]

Ahhhhhhhhh

Now there are some answers! Thank you :thanku: I think I begin to see how much I don't know. I figured it was a lot 8O So if the resistance is identical , and the diameter sufficient , all the required parameters have been met? Interesting! Thanks , again. Off to study some more........

[Bob]

There are many electrical engineers struggling with this question. Most discussions about cables digress into flame wars because there is so much BS about them, and, snake oil salesmen for sure. But, occasionally there are threads that can be found on the web where EE's struggle for an explanation as to why cables can make a difference.
I have no engineering background and go by what I hear or can't hear. But, like everybody else I am curious as to why something works or doesn't. I am also lucky to live in a area where I am surrounded by some of the better EE's in the state so, I have audiophile friends that can answer these questions for me. Although, most of the time they get to deep into the explanation for me to follow. My closest audiophile friend is the head EE for TRW, now Northrup Gruman. He gave me a very rational reason why he used cable lifters (although he admits he hears no difference), Richard Gray conditioners (which he also admits he can hear no difference), Vibration control ( I watched him over a year's time experiment with countless different devices, this is one tweak that is audible), and for the last two years he has been trying to come up with a explanation for the sonic differences in cables.
His approach has been that he can hear a obvious difference so, there must be a physical reason for the difference that can be explained and duplicated. As a member of the LAOC audio club he has had access to some very expensive cables as well as the more moderately priced cables that we are all familiar with. So far, only 3 have made a sonic difference that he could hear and those are the 3 he has been working with to try and understand why one of them degraded the sound and the other two improved the sound. The sorta good news is that of the two innerconnects that all of us that have endured his testing have picked are not priced in the stratoshere.
At the present, I don't beleive any EE has yet to come up with a explanation for why cables make a difference. Until they do, those of us that beleive that they can will simply use the ones that we like and those of you that don't beleive they can should use the least expensive cable you can find.
Just to get it out of the way, why would we use things like cable lifters and conditioners that don't seem to make a difference? Because, it is just one more thing not to worry about. Is that a good reason? Yes, all our houses are full of things that give us comfort but do nothing.
One more thing, IC's and Speaker wires, IMHO, should be almost the last thing you should worry about when it comes to improving your system. The almost never addressed, speaker placement and room dynamics should come first. When they are as good as you can get them it will change how you hear your speakers more than any other component in the chain.

[Victor]

There are many electrical engineers struggling with this question. Most discussions about cables digress into flame wars because there is so much BS about them, and, snake oil salesmen for sure. But, occasionally there are threads that can be found on the web where EE's struggle for an explanation as to why cables can make a difference.

Bob, this simply is not true. Electrical engineers do not struggle with those questions at all. There is nothing to straggle with, because the electrical behavior of wire at low enough frequencies are so well understood, that it is plain boring. Audio is all about low frequencies.

Those EE that ‘struggle’ with cables need further education.

To wit, - nothing has changed in understanding of cables in the past 100 years. The manufacturing techniques have significantly improved, the electrical properties have also improved, and there are areas where those improvements have made the difference, but audio in terms of the sound quality is not one of them. What the better cables gave us here is an improved ergonomics, - nothing else.

My closest audiophile friend is the head EE for TRW, now Northrup Gruman. He gave me a very rational reason why he used cable lifters (although he admits he hears no difference), Richard Gray conditioners (which he also admits he can hear no difference), Vibration control ( I watched him over a year's time experiment with countless different devices, this is one tweak that is audible), and for the last two years he has been trying to come up with a explanation for the sonic differences in cables.

I feel for your friend. Gruman is a very serious company and they do amazing work. However, if your friend is exploring the effects of vibration on solid state audio electronics (turn-tables being an exception here), - then he is barking up the wrong tree all together.

Physics does not allow for this connection. That is to say, - that you can take a wire or the power amp and shake it as much as you want, even put it in the high speed centrifuge and accelerate it to the high ‘g’ numbers, - the overall conductivity will not be effected,. Certainly the wire will pass this test, while the power amp may have mechanical failure which will account for distortion and audible sound degradation. Providing that the power amps holds together, it will have the same THD while shaken to death as if it remains perfectly still.

Reason for these phenomena is that the electron behavior is governed by the laws of Quantum Mechanics and Relativistic, while the mechanical vibrations are governed by the laws of Newtonian Mechanics. The two do not interact at least at the frequencies we are talking about. Hence, - antivibration platforms do not contribute to the better sound, in fact they do not contribute anything at all.

His approach has been that he can hear a obvious difference so, there must be a physical reason for the difference that can be explained and duplicated.

No, - you cannot make this conclusion, as it is illogical to say that because I hear something there must be a physical reason for it. Reason and logic must govern our approach to engineering. Your ears are not instruments; - they are by far so very imperfect. You hearing depends on your emotional state of being among many other factors. Think about it, - a scientific approach or a test must be repeatable, - that is to say that your findings must hold today, tomorrow and many years from now. If you use you ears, you can’t even compare the results 15 seconds apart!

As a member of the LAOC audio club he has had access to some very expensive cables as well as the more moderately priced cables that we are all familiar with. So far, only 3 have made a sonic difference that he could hear and those are the 3 he has been working with to try and understand why one of them degraded the sound and the other two improved the sound. The sorta good news is that of the two innerconnects that all of us that have endured his testing have picked are not priced in the stratoshere.

You know, - I have witnessed a test whereby just for fun a two old and rusted coat hangers twisted together were compared to a very expensive $200 per foot Kimber speaker wire, utilizing Bryston amps and Tannoy speakers.

Guess what? Nobody could conclusively tell them apart. Does it disprove your friend’s findings? No, - because the two tests have nothing to do with each other and strictly speaking the scientific methodology has not been followed, but it certainly throws a significant enough doubt into what your friend is hearing.

I have no engineering background and go by what I hear or can't hear…

...At the present, I don't beleive any EE has yet to come up with a explanation for why cables make a difference. Until they do, those of us that beleive that they can will simply use the ones that we like and those of you that don't beleive they can should use the least expensive cable you can find.

Naturally, we are all free to do as we please. I would like however, to draw your attention to the operative word in your post, - ‘believe’. This word is the difference between our respective positions, - believe system has no place in technical pursuit, - one needs to ‘know’.

Just to get it out of the way, why would we use things like cable lifters and conditioners that don't seem to make a difference?

Bob, we use those filters because they are available and our psyche is in full compliance with the good old Parkinson’s Law. This Law states, - you give an organization resources and it will find the way to use them.

The question is, - do you need those resources? No, you don’t. Objective tests and scientific reasoning show beyond any conceivable doubt that filters and power conditionings have no effect on the modern audio technology. Besides if you actually are unlucky enough to have an audio band noise in your audio equipment, - there is virtually nothing you can do to filter it out. The power supply noise rejection capability of any audio gear sold today is more then sufficient to filter whatever the noise that might be supplied by your friendly local power company. Do you really think that the power you get from the wall outlet is somehow noisy?

One more thing, IC's and Speaker wires, IMHO, should be almost the last thing you should worry about when it comes to improving your system. The almost never addressed, speaker placement and room dynamics should come first. When they are as good as you can get them it will change how you hear your speakers more than any other component in the chain.

This is very true.

Regards,
Victor

[Lex]

This thread is on alert by me.

Victor, I am issuing a cool it to you to let discussion ensue without attempting to come over the top of people with what appears to be your infinite EE knowledge. While I recognize you have engineering knowledge. I also recognize an engineer's closed mind to the principles of an audiophile. We support both here, not one at the other's expense. So, you can either accept that, and act accordingly, or find somewhere else to dispense your electronics knowledge.

I might add that you came over the top of an experienced audiophile more than once here. This type of behavior will not be tollerated on HTGuide.

This is exactly how flame wars start, and I'm putting a cease and desist on this thread immediately.

[comeup]

This is exactly how flame wars start, and I'm putting a cease and desist on this thread immediately.[/QUOTE]



Doug didn't mean to start any trouble by starting this thread just wanted some knowledge on how much to spend and not to over spend. There is a lot of knowledge and good advise on HTGUIDE and I thank everyone for their comments far I found that I don't have nearly as much Knowledge as many of you do on this site. I'm always learning. I've learned as you said let your ears be the judge and after reading everything above I don't feel like I got ripped off because my systems do sound great.

Thanks

[Alaric]

Ok. Clothes hangers aren't long enough to do the job so I'll have to assume it's true-just to err on the side of caution. I have two very close relatives who are engineers ( not electrical , but mechanical and one with a master's degree in mechanical engineering). They have proven over the years , in the marketplace , that they are pretty good engineers. I'd trust them to design anything , including the brakes on my car (one did). The "better" one feels his Bose lifestyle system is superior to almost everything else because , and I quote , "Numbers Don't Lie".
Someone , who assumed I'm a rube , indicated in another thread that there is no need for seperates relative to specs written on paper . Why buy Rotel when Denon or Marantz can provide pretty numbers in the same range? Or Krell , whose numbers far exceed Rotel?
As for ears being more discerning instruments , a human finger can feel imperfections to 1/10000 of an inch. Mechanical devices to equal that performance are a relatively new invention in the course of human evolution. Perhaps we simply don't have the necessary means to measure what some call perception and others call fact? As a side note:Quantum Mechanics is hardly required to measure resistance expressed in ohms. Or , if you like math , microvoltage and some grade school multiplication.
Finally , my poorly chosen , but apparently entertaining , metaphor was chosen not to indicate glass has a positive effect on spirits-more to indicate that pig feces will have a negative effect on taste. I guess that could be a perception issue as well....End of rant.

P.S. Yes , I know why bumblebees ( and F-4 Phantom IIs as well) fly. I also humbly , and respectfully , ask Lex to allow a complete flaming of this post. I won't get hurt feelings and there may well be a legitimate response that just can't be expressed "delicately". Or I ticked someone off and should be tough enough to accept the consequences of my opinions!

[GregLett]

Ok. Clothes hangers aren't long enough to do the job so I'll have to assume it's true-just to err on the side of caution.

Hey I have some cables that look like cloths hangers

[Alaric]

How much 'ya want for 'em?

Hey , Greg! I need a couple , about 2 meters long. :roflmao: Wy wife is about 800 pounds shy of using the size I need.......

[GregLett]

:roflmao:

[Victor]

Victor, I am issuing a cool it to you to let discussion ensue without attempting to come over the top of people with what appears to be your infinite EE knowledge... I also recognize an engineer's closed mind to the principles of an audiophile..

...very well, Lex, - be it as it may...

[Eliav]

[

"I feel for your friend. Gruman is a very serious company and they do amazing work. However, if your friend is exploring the effects of vibration on solid state audio electronics (turn-tables being an exception here), - then he is barking up the wrong tree all together.

Physics does not allow for this connection. That is to say, - that you can take a wire or the power amp and shake it as much as you want, even put it in the high speed centrifuge and accelerate it to the high ‘g’ numbers, - the overall conductivity will not be effected,. Certainly the wire will pass this test, while the power amp may have mechanical failure which will account for distortion and audible sound degradation. Providing that the power amps holds together, it will have the same THD while shaken to death as if it remains perfectly still.

Reason for these phenomena is that the electron behavior is governed by the laws of Quantum Mechanics and Relativistic, while the mechanical vibrations are governed by the laws of Newtonian Mechanics. The two do not interact at least at the frequencies we are talking about. Hence, - antivibration platforms do not contribute to the better sound, in fact they do not contribute anything at all. "



Regards,
Victor[/QUOTE]

I know this topic has been suspended, however, I would like to submit an ignorant question:
if vibrations does not play ANY role in solid state gear (except for turntables) why is it that respectable brands like "Classe" take the time to present their new products such as the new stereo pre amp as :
" To reduce the effects of vibration on the CP-700 circuitry, the Classé Design Team utilizes a Delta series chassis, made of both steel and aluminum. The front panel wrap is an aluminum extrusion with a broad radius on the front corners. The feet are specially designed with Navcom(TM) LimbSaver ® material, which provide excellent damping of vibrations, both internal and external to the chassis. As a mechanical system, the Delta series chassis is optimized as an ideal foundation on which to build world-class electronic components.
"
Am I missing anything here ? Is it that Classe is selling air to us lay people or is it really an issue ? :E
Eliav