Blind testing (re: AC cord thread)

[StefanColson]

There's really no way to know whether your pre-concieved notion of how you think it'll sound affects your judgement unless you do a blind test. I sat in on a cable test one time (speaker cables, not power cables) and listened to everyone around the room proclaim the great differences between each cable (oh listen, the highs with this cable are so much sweeter, and the bottom tightened up so much, blah blah blah). I couldn't tell a difference between any of them, and I wasn't ashamed to say it (I don't care if I can't hear what someone else can, all I care about is what I can percieve with my own ears). When the shootout was over, the guy putting on the test informed everyone that the test had been an experiment of sorts, and we had only been listening to one set of cables the entire time. I was just as surprised as everyone else, as I normally can't percieve a difference in cables (unless one of the sets is somehow defective), but it was funny to watch the other "audiophiles" try to make excuses.

I've also witnessed people going on and on about the drastic differences when placing spikes under an amp to decouple it from the stand, when ONE OF THE SPEAKERS SET UP WAS OUT OF PHASE! These "audiophiles" could allegedly discern these fantastic improvements made by these spikes, but couldn't hear that one of the speakers was out of phase.

Bottom line, if you can't walk in totally detatched from any want or need to like or dislike something, you need to conduct blind tests. We all hear what we want to atleast to some degree.

[thylantyr]

Here is a funny one. Go to an audiophile store and ask
if they have a product that after 200-300 hours of burn in,
will give you a worse sound that you desire. :rofl:

[StefanColson]

Huh?

[Snap]

Stefan,
There is a lot to say about the human mind. People have ideas in there head and they are looking for them to be there. If you spend a bunch of money on new speakers you are going into the project "expecting" it to be better. So you stack the deck to them sounding better.
A lot of the stuff people are doing I would bet money that they can see the improvment on a scope but not in there ears. A dealer tried to show me the diff between silver wire, and copper. Both were HIGH money cables! B&W 800D powered by CLASSE. I admit.... ops: I could not tell the diff between the silver and the copper cables. Darn if I did not try, but I just could not hear the darn diff. He swares he could...but I could not. I bet if we took a scope out there we could see a diff. But I could not hear it.

The MAIN thing that you have to agree with is perception. No matter what you or any one else says, if I think in MY mind that the mod that I did sounds better.....than to Me it does. It might sound like trash to some other people, but the audiophile owner has the final say in if it sounds good or not. That is the cool thing about being a AV guy (or girl) There are endless possiblilties and many ways to make things sound good and work out. And every one of us is on our own quest to find our favorite sounds.

And with most things we can agree to disagree! And the blind test are a wonderful way to see how honest we are with ourselves!

[audiofan]

Not all aftermarket power cords are the same. I have tried powercord from my friends in my system. The background noise is reduced, but the sound is the same. So i guess it helps a bit , not much.

[StefanColson]

Snap, I completely agree about perception, but this is my thinking on it: If you percieve a $5000 set of interconnects to sound better, then yes you are happy and no harm done. However, if in a blind test you reveal to yourself that you infact cannot tell the difference at all between the interconnects, you have the same sound quality and you walk away from the experience without blowing $5000.

The dealer swears he can hear the difference between silver and copper either because he wants to hear a difference (that's likely not even detectable by the human ear, or most scopes for that matter) or because he sells the stuff.

I have no problem with people that want to spend their money on AC cables, wooden knobs for their equipment, etc. I just hate to see people spending money without really being honest with themselves about what they can actually hear.

[Jesse111]

Power cords. Simply amazing. They have no gain. The 10-14 guage wire that runs through your house is the last (of many) determining factors as to the type of current at your recepticle. Unless a power cord has gain (which it does not) then all you can do is pass along whatever current is at that recepticle to your equpment. The only difference a power cord can make is if you put something on so small and cheap you diminish the electrical supply current needs. That means something smaller than the OEM cord that came with your unit. Money spent on power cords are all about emotion. They simply can not increase the quality of the music. It is impossible. That current that has gone miles and miles to get to your home will not be improved a single iota by those few feet of expensive hyped up, sales gimicked power cords. They are a passive item. The few feet of OEM cord that came with your unit vs. hyped up "audiophile" power cords is immesurable by any resonable electronic gear much less to the very unsuffisticated human ear. Once you have increased the size AND QUALITY of your power cord beyond what you have in the walls of your house, you have thrown your money away.

[StefanColson]

Couldn't agree more. The amount of snakeoil present in high end audio is simply astounding. It's akin to going into a car dealership and being told that black paint will increase the speed of your car.

[Paul H]

Couldn't agree more. The amount of snakeoil present in high end audio is simply astounding. It's akin to going into a car dealership and being told that black paint will increase the speed of your car.

Yeah ... everyone knows that red cars are way faster :B :rofl: :rofl:

Paul

[Jesse111]

Instead of purchasing a new power cord, try a sure fire upgrade guarenteed to work. Click your heals together 3 times just before turning on your amp. You won't believe how much better your system will sound. That will be $5,000. Cashiers check only please.

[hidefdvd]

Power cords. Simply amazing. They have no gain. The 10-14 guage wire that runs through your house is the last (of many) determining factors as to the type of current at your recepticle. Unless a power cord has gain (which it does not) then all you can do is pass along whatever current is at that recepticle to your equpment. The only difference a power cord can make is if you put something on so small and cheap you diminish the electrical supply current needs. That means something smaller than the OEM cord that came with your unit. Money spent on power cords are all about emotion. They simply can not increase the quality of the music. It is impossible. That current that has gone miles and miles to get to your home will not be improved a single iota by those few feet of expensive hyped up, sales gimicked power cords. They are a passive item. The few feet of OEM cord that came with your unit vs. hyped up "audiophile" power cords is immesurable by any resonable electronic gear much less to the very unsuffisticated human ear. Once you have increased the size AND QUALITY of your power cord beyond what you have in the walls of your house, you have thrown your money away.

But what about those who run voltage regulators?

[Jesse111]

It makes no difference as regards a voltage regulator or line conditioner. The OEM cords are designed to carry all the current necessary (and more) for the amp draw needs. If you regulate your power to the full capacity of the OEM cord that came with your unit you would blow your amp to kingdom come. In other words when was the last time your power cord burned up before you fried your amp? The quality power cords that come with high quality eqiupment do not even get warm from the load. In otherwords they aren't even getting close to their capacity. It's the law. An expensive power cord does not change those values at all with or without a regulator. If you want to run two amps on one cord then you will need a bigger "better" cord. But of course, that's ridiculous hence making the point. A line conditioner cleans the noise out of the power supply and helps only to eliminate rare spikes and tics that may or may not be audible and helps protect the equipment from physical damage. Line conditioners are a proven science for protection and may help maintain eqipment in better health for the long run but still offer no audable listening difference. Blind test it and you won't be able to tell.

[David Meek]

Line conditioners are a proven science for protection and may help maintain eqipment in better health for the long run but still offer no audable listening difference.

I'm getting really tired of erroneous "blanket" statements offered up as absolute truths. Line conditioners that have EMI/RFI filtration can and sometimes DO audibly affect what you hear. What should have been said here is "surge protectors are a proven science for protection and may help maintain eqipment in better health for the long run".

Audio Hideout Moderator


.

[Vincehoffman]

Thank You David,

It does indeed get irksome! I live in a small downtown core in a century building. My Foundation Research line conditioners' ability to filter out electronic "junk" riding in (and out) on the powerline is rather obvious.

Happy Trails!
Vince@freewheelcycle.com

[Snap]

Instead of purchasing a new power cord, try a sure fire upgrade guarenteed to work. Click your heals together 3 times just before turning on your amp. You won't believe how much better your system will sound. That will be $5,000. Cashiers check only please.

:laughat::laughat: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Jesse, Hey man from the look of your stuff you had to have gotten it from Audio Labs :T That guy is SUPER NICE! I like him! I only got to talk to him 2 times, but both times he was so cool! Even did not mind me milling around listening to the 800D and the Classe system! Helped me and my wife out with good Dinner directions too! :T If I did not have my own business I would get stuff from that dude!

[Jesse111]

Hey Snap, your right. You're talking about Rich. I've know him for about 20 some years. My first purchase with him was when he made his own speakers under the Hartley name. Remember those? Anyway, he is a nice guy and helpful. He recently started carrying the Classe' line. So glad he did. So where did you end up eating dinner? Next time your in town, check out a place called Circa 1920. Try the Calamari.

[Jesse111]

Hello Vince,
I absolutely agree with you on line conditioners. I was merely referring to the actual sonic quality of the system. I have been told to cool my jets on aggressive statements (which I agree with, thanks David) so let me just say that I and some of my friends are absolutely unable to hear anything like "larger soundstage" or "more transparency" based soley on the addition of a line conditioner as some "audiophiles" have claimed. So let me take David's advice at this point and say; perhaps some folks can. Can they remove brown noise and dirt? You bet. Can they smooth out spikes? Sure can. Are these things audible when they happen? In some cases they certainly are. They also help maintain a quality current that reducesses stress on componants leading in theory to longer life (lightning surges not withstanding). Would I even think about starting my system without one? No way.

[Snap]

Hey Snap, your right. You're talking about Rich. I've know him for about 20 some years. My first purchase with him was when he made his own speakers under the Hartley name. Remember those? Anyway, he is a nice guy and helpful. He recently started carrying the Classe' line. So glad he did. So where did you end up eating dinner? Next time your in town, check out a place called Circa 1920. Try the Calamari.

Will do man. Rich is super cool! Great Guy has a super ear for stuff as well. Nice show room. If that place burns down some insurance place is going to be out a couple of Million!

[David Meek]

So let me take David's advice

Someone (anyone) is taking my advice???? :W

A while back, ThomasW had built a balanced power unit and shipped it out to interested HTG members to test. Here's the thread on the "tour" part of that. Some of the sonic testing I did was very subjective, but some wasn't and the results were interesting. FYI, here is the thread on the construction portion.