Is SACD dead?

[krek]

high res mp3? Say like 1000 kbs? mp3 is THE format for the masses, internetdownload etc.

I think any (new) high res format should be downloadable to get it to the mass market. This is the way of the future...way of the future....way of the future

[SQconstable]

With downloadable product there's less security for copyright owners. Downloadable means more piracy. Physical SACD's can be "ripped" too though, just takes a little time.

[csuzor]

high res mp3? Say like 1000 kbs?

There is no hope for high res mp3, because of piracy. High res wma pro, with digital rights and multi-channel, maybe.

But the concept of high res out of the PC is tough, because the advantage of the higher resolution is lost by the analog output stage on our sound cards. It would be worse than listening to a universal player, and already many in this thread will tell you that a mid-level CD player can beat most sacd-dvda universal players. If the PC is the solution, then an external decoder for the digital out (mp3 or wma with content protection) will be required, free from parasitic noise generated by the PC. Some are doing that today, for 16b/44k pcm.

Those who listen to mp3 today think CD-quality is "maximum quality", and they happily settle for less. The rest of us are happy with cd or vinyl or sacd.

[krek]

I use a hifidelio (Olive in the states) machine which is linked to an old musical fidelity DAC. 320 kbps ans FLAC sounds great I think. It blasts away any SACD multi player I have heard under a 1000 euro. But of course it's stereo only.

Cambridge audio has a machine, the azur 640H which has the possibility to download direct from the internet. So no PC in between.

But when high res downloads become available the 160Gb harddisks of those machines just won't do. You'll need a terabite or so I suppose.

[dvda-sacd]

"SACD Dying...Or Not?" - Producers & engineers check in

An answer to rumors that the SACD format is dying.

-> http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=162

[Kingdaddy]

The answer would be a resounding Yes, unless you’re a classical fan.

That’s the problem with SACD, they seem to think that the majority like classical and this is false, the classical crowd is a small niche group, not the majority.

So for all practical purposes, it is dead to the masses and I personally don’t care much for classical recordings so it is definitely dead for me.

[JonMarsh]

Maybe you're looking at the problem from the wrong direction-

The majority who buy rock and pop don't care enough about fidelity (as a group) to make SACD viable, though if the labels started persuing hybrids as a normal release pattern, that could be changed, as well as the "value" perception. SACD is not rippable, CD is, so you have your music for your iPod or music server.

OTOH, those music lovers into jazz and classical, AS A GROUP, are much more into high quality reproduction, so the people making and selling those recordings release far more material in SACD, usually hybrid SACD.

Different markets. Most of the people at Target or Walmart looking for the latest pop or hip-hop releases are the same audience downloading a lot of MP3 and generally fairly happy with it. Thos lablels don't see SACD on the radar of their prime market, just as all those folks out there still with 4:3 NTSC TV's aren't in the market for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

[dvda-sacd]

the classical crowd is a small niche group, not the majority.

The group that brought up the CD in the early 80s.

[Kingdaddy]

Maybe you're looking at the problem from the wrong direction-

The majority who buy rock and pop don't care enough about fidelity (as a group) to make SACD viable, though if the labels started persuing hybrids as a normal release pattern, that could be changed, as well as the "value" perception. SACD is not rippable, CD is, so you have your music for your iPod or music server.

OTOH, those music lovers into jazz and classical, AS A GROUP, are much more into high quality reproduction, so the people making and selling those recordings release far more material in SACD, usually hybrid SACD.

Different markets. Most of the people at Target or Walmart looking for the latest pop or hip-hop releases are the same audience downloading a lot of MP3 and generally fairly happy with it. Thos lablels don't see SACD on the radar of their prime market, just as all those folks out there still with 4:3 NTSC TV's aren't in the market for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

I think you highly underestimate the non classical crowd, many of us, me included, care more for good recordings then anything else, and I’ll bet if you counted all of us up we would easily dwarf the classical crowd in sheer numbers. This is the mistake the industry seems to be making as well, they think that because we listen to pop, rock or other less snooty genres of music that we don’t care for quality recordings, simply untrue. i like a lot of jazz as well but cannot find but a few SACD's of that genre that I would buy.

I stick by my statement, SACD is dead to the masses that could make it take off.

Remember DBX encoded albums, I had several and they did the same thing with poor selection and one-dimensional thinking in the genre department. Digital output and mainstream music would make SACD live fruitfully, anything else and it will die like DBX.

[dvda-sacd]

Digital output and mainstream music would make SACD live fruitfully

Digital outputs for DSD are HDMI 1.2, i.LINK and DENON Link.

[DifferentLee]

I would kill for albums on DVD-A or SACD, and I think it would give some visibility to those formats (or other new formats) to release Joshua Tree in high-ress.

That would be nice. Still, I am quite content to just keep seeing new jazz and classical released. Sony is putting out an Ornette Coleman disc and a new Miles Davis disc as well according to Home Theater magazine.

[Kal Rubinson]

I think you highly underestimate the non classical crowd, many of us, me included, care more for good recordings then anything else, and I’ll bet if you counted all of us up we would easily dwarf the classical crowd in sheer numbers.

But you represent only a small fraction of the non-classical market. The increment you represent does not attract the efforts of the producers in your market.

OTOH, the smaller classical/jazz market has a much higher fraction interested in high quality, so their incremental value is proportionally much greater.

Bottom line: The big mainstream companies don't need you but the small niche companies need us.

Kal

[aud19]

But you represent only a small fraction of the non-classical market. The increment you represent does not attract the efforts of the producers in your market.

OTOH, the smaller classical/jazz market has a much higher fraction interested in high quality, so their incremental value is proportionally much greater.

Bottom line: The big mainstream companies don't need you but the small niche companies need us.

Kal

Yup, you represent maybe a couple percent of the mainstream market where as high-res listeners represent probably a good 75% (if not more) of classical/jazz listeners. The fact is that the majority of peopple who listen to Beyonce and the Pussycat dolls could give a rats you know what about SQ. So why would the studios care about releasing those artists in high-res, most people are just downloading them

I do agree though it WOULD be nice if the studios just started releasing EVERYTHING as hybrid or in the case of DVD-A (proper :evil: )DualDisc. Also FWIW, DVD-A/DualDisc does have a decent amount of more "mainstream" music as compared to SACD.

[Kingdaddy]

But you represent only a small fraction of the non-classical market. The increment you represent does not attract the efforts of the producers in your market.

OTOH, the smaller classical/jazz market has a much higher fraction interested in high quality, so their incremental value is proportionally much greater.

Bottom line: The big mainstream companies don't need you but the small niche companies need us.

Kal

I believe it is correct that I am a smaller percentage of mainstream music listeners that care greatly about quality of recordings relative to the Classical crowd, but that was not my point. My point was that my small percentage was a greater number overall by a huge margin then the classical crowd and I’ll stand by that, we few pop music lovers that demand quality will dwarf the entire classical crowd IMO. Proof is in the pudding, anything marketed to the mainstream music crowd will sell more no matter what it is, many will buy the better quality even if they don’t appreciate the differences as much as you and I, some unknowingly. Power is in the numbers and that’s a fact that the HI-Rez camp is missing and dieing by, this is not the first time either, you’d think they had learned their lesson.


Larger quantities of popular titles will mean more exposure obviously and this will teach some ears the difference, you should well know once you have heard great, its hard to go back to mediocre, so it will grow faster and be cheaper if the industry would just think logically and stop being so greedy about intellectual properties. The file sizes that would be required for a ripped SACD would be too large and cumbersome for a ipod anyway, so I see no reason to not allow digital stream without copy protection, which is a big hang-up and is killing the format with the waiting.

Timing is everything and waiting any longer to get this resolved is cretin death. Analog outs are ridiculous and causes even the early adopters and quality music lovers to pause or rethink, what were they thinking?

[Kal Rubinson]

I believe it is correct that I am a smaller percentage of mainstream music listeners that care greatly about quality of recordings relative to the Classical crowd, but that was not my point. My point was that my small percentage was a greater number overall by a huge margin then the classical crowd and I’ll stand by that, we few pop music lovers that demand quality will dwarf the entire classical crowd IMO.

No argument there. However, the big companies marketing pop/rock will take little interest in something that 'might' appeal to 0.1% of their target market while the classical labels do take note of something that 'might' appeal to 30-50% of theirs. (All numbers fictional but selected for emphasis!)

Kal

[jim777]

As most of you saw in another thread, some new info might help the format:

"Strong Super Audio CD support from Sony"

http://www.sa-cd.net/shownews/41

And the PS3 will support SACD so many people are going to have a player in their home and they are going to wonder how it sounds...

http://eu.playstation.com/ps3/

But I agree, SACD has a hard time getting in. The DVDA/SACD war sucks - probably killed both...

[Chris D]

I don't know that SACD support in the PS3 is really going to help support/launch/revitalize the format. We've seen WMVHD really go nowhere, and almost all new computers support that.

I wonder what the discussion would be for, "is DVD-A dead?"

Perhaps both formats will be replaced by new audio discs in the new high-res audio formats included on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, such as DTS-HD, DD+, etc?

[Kingdaddy]

The only thing that will really help SACD is more populer titles, without content what good is the equipment.

[jim777]

The only thing that will really help SACD is more populer titles, without content what good is the equipment.

That's pretty true. But now the info about Sony tells us that it will now cost less to produce SACD's, so maybe we'll see more of them...

I have a dream... I have a dream, that one day all CD's will be SACD hybrids :T

[Kingdaddy]

That's pretty true. But now the info about Sony tells us that it will now cost less to produce SACD's, so maybe we'll see more of them...

I have a dream... I have a dream, that one day all CD's will be SACD hybrids :T

That would be great, but for now the whole industry of SACD seems to be stuck on classical, that’s a dead end into niche land no matter how you slice it.

[Kal Rubinson]

That would be great, but for now the whole industry of SACD seems to be stuck on classical, that’s a dead end into niche land no matter how you slice it.

Ha! I do not disagree but I'd put it another way:
That would be great, but for now only the classical industry seems to be stuck on SACD. :B

Kal

[Alaric]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/search_results.cfm?start=1&id=10&genre=6%20&adv=true

[dvda-sacd]

http://store.acousticsounds.com/sear...=6%20&adv=true

That link doesn't work properly. :roll:

[Alaric]

Just tried it

It works on my end-not sure why it didn't for you. You can go to www.acousticsounds.com and click on the link for SACD.They seem to have a few non-classical offerings.

[Race Car Driver]

As i listen to my Godsmack "the other side" acoustic album in SACD.....

[dvda-sacd]

SACDs $5.99

It works on my end

OK, it works now.

I strongly recommend YourMusic.com to US members. They sell every CD and SACD for $5.99 each and free shipping. You can find about 40 SACDs in their catalog.

[earwit]

I think there will always be a niche for SACD/ DVD Audio, just like there still is for vinyl.Sure not every release will come out in a hi-resolution formats but many still will.

I think the trend with Sacd will be that more and more will be imports from Europe where SACD if more accepted, such as the recent release of the Moody Blue's catalog on Sacd,

Also in May 2006 Sony announced that they have developed a new method to convert music to Sacd that is quicker and less costly.

I also wonder what it costs a record comapny to convert a Cd to Sacd or Dva. For example I assume a classic old rock album like Supertramp Crime of the Century does not sell well anymore, I would think a new release on another format would create a new market, Wonder how many units would need to be sold to make it cost effective.

[Kal Rubinson]

I also wonder what it costs a record comapny to convert a Cd to Sacd or Dva. For example I assume a classic old rock album like Supertramp Crime of the Century does not sell well anymore, I would think a new release on another format would create a new market, Wonder how many units would need to be sold to make it cost effective.

Frankly, if the medium is going to depend on re-releasing old converted CDs, it will be as dull as the vinyl market. New, high-resolution recordings are the life blood of any medium.

Kal

[Ovation]

Frankly, if the medium is going to depend on re-releasing old converted CDs, it will be as dull as the vinyl market. New, high-resolution recordings are the life blood of any medium.

Kal

While I am anxiously awaiting the MCH (on SACD or DVD-A, I hope) of the Genesis catalogue (Nick Davis has pretty much finished all the mixes), I agree. New recordings are essential and SACD is skewed to classical, I suspect, because that's the only genre consistently putting out new recordings (though I wish they'd expand the repertoire a bit--how many Mahler Symphony cycles can I buy?).

[aud19]

I've got 7 letters for you:

B
E
A
T
L
E
S

That's what I want in high-res! :yesnod:

[Chris D]

Yes, that would be very popular. And I keep saying, that U2, specifically "Joshua Tree", would be definitive on high-res.

[David Meek]

Oh wouldn't that be nice! :T

At least as long as the mix wasn't multi-channelled all to hell...

[Kal Rubinson]

That's a good reason SACD is dying. Re-releasing any old classic only feeds the audiophile niche which, admittedly, is tiny and, for the major labels, inconsequential.

The only way for the majors to make money on it would be to bring out a new "must have" recording on hybrid so that the mass market will buy it. The majors seem to have forgotten the old computer software principle of introducing a "killer app" that makes the mass market want to buy (or have to buy) the new hardware.

One reason SACD is still alive in the classical market (niche, too) is that most of the releases are new ones and collectors buy them because they want the music; the better quality is a secondary issue for most.

Kal

[earwit]

I agree that it is sure nice when new releases come out on Sacd or Dvd-audio, at the same time the majority of older recording that are re-released on a higher resolution formats , usually there is a signifigant sonic improvement.

In classsical and jazz formats I see countless new releases of older recording, this is certainly a much smaller market then classic rock albums. I believe there are thousands of rock albums which would have a market in Hi-rez . Does anyone know the costs of remastering a CD to hi-rez ?

[Kal Rubinson]

I agree that it is sure nice when new releases come out on Sacd or Dvd-audio, at the same time the majority of older recording that are re-released on a higher resolution formats , usually there is a signifigant sonic improvement.

Agreed but how much of a market for higher sonic quality is there?

In classsical and jazz formats I see countless new releases of older recording,

But the proportion of new to reissued is high.

this is certainly a much smaller market then classic rock albums. I believe there are thousands of rock albums which would have a market in Hi-rez .

A small audiophile market. The mass market already has an adequate copy and/or only wants new stuff.

Does anyone know the costs of remastering a CD to hi-rez ?

For the majors, the cost is less significant than the bother for what they see as little or no return.

Kal

[hammerjack105]

So, what would be a really good SACD player to go out and buy? I just bought a Sony SCD-CD595 last week and it seems to do a pretty good job. I've listened to some Dylan Hybrid SACD's but am interested in the "real" SACD's. So, what's your opinion on the players, DAT players and all you mentioned in your last post? I guess I'm a novice on the SACD and am pretty sure they will be around for quite awhile. Thanks for listening. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Lex]

maybe since this was popped to the top, a complete status of SACD and DVD Audio by someone as it relates to the market today would be a nice thing to have.

[Kal Rubinson]

maybe since this was popped to the top, a complete status of SACD and DVD Audio by someone as it relates to the market today would be a nice thing to have.

Sure. No real change. The new release rate continues to ebb and a turnaround continues to be unlikely.

OTOH, there are still many new and worthy classical releases, mostly by smaller labels.

Kal

[Gump]

Curious if/when the new Dolby/DTS HD formats take off if that'll be the final nail in the SACD coffin..? Whatcha think Kal?

[Kal Rubinson]

Curious if/when the new Dolby/DTS HD formats take off if that'll be the final nail in the SACD coffin..? Whatcha think Kal?

Sure but that is a very big IF.

[Ovation]

I think SACD will, at least, survive owing to the hybrid capability and the niche market among classical music lovers. I know I always check if a classical recording that interests me is available in SACD (and DVD-A, though I'm less hopeful of finding them there).

[Chris D]

Curious if/when the new Dolby/DTS HD formats take off if that'll be the final nail in the SACD coffin..? Whatcha think Kal?

I've directly asked the staffs at DTS and Dolby, and they do not envision these formats being used for audio discs in the future, like SACD or DVD-A did. We'll see, though.