Matching an Existing Stain Color

[Mark_1042]

Any tips/hints, besides try and try again? :B

I've got a Zaph ZDT 3.5 center channel, its almost complete but I'm having a hard time getting the stain to match the cabinet my T.V. sits on.

The T.V. cabinet is white ash, and the stain color is difficult to describe - it has a lot of different colors in it but in general I would say its orangish-brown. The veneer on the center channel is quartersawn white oak, the tight grain pattern is a close match to the white ash - now if I could only get the color right.

So far I've been using oil based Varathane finishes, and have been layering different colors with layers of shellac in between. I've come so close to matching it, but the problem I keep running into is when you look at the finish I've made at a (very sharp) oblique angle, it looks red and stands out like a sore thumb. When you look at the T.V. stand from the same angle its just brown.

I'm not really sure where to go from here, I keep trying to mix different colors but without much success. Can any of the seasoned woodworkers here offer any recommendations? The color I'm looking for is sort of orangish-brown when you view it straight on, but when you view it from an angle its just brown. I've thought of trying different brands but the stores around here don't seem to have much to choose from. Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Hdale85]

It can be quite tricky to match a stain because the color of the stain and wood will change over time due to UV exposure and what not.

[Mark_1042]

Thanks Hdale. They shouldn't be exposed to too much UV light, and the T.V. cabinet is fairly new. I guess only time will tell.

I'm just wondering if maybe I should try going in a different direction, like try using/mixing some dye stains (which I have absolutely no experience with). My wood finishing skills aren't the greatest, so I was hoping I could achieve a decent match through more simple methods, but it doesn't seem to be working.

[PMazz]

Go to a Sherwin Williams or similar and they'll match it for you. You'll need a small shelf or something with the stain on it that you want to match and a piece or two of the veneer.

White oak is particularly difficult as it tends to show a kind of purplish hue.

[Steve Manning]

Any tips/hints, besides try and try again? :B

I've got a Zaph ZDT 3.5 center channel, its almost complete but I'm having a hard time getting the stain to match the cabinet my T.V. sits on.

The T.V. cabinet is white ash, and the stain color is difficult to describe - it has a lot of different colors in it but in general I would say its orangish-brown. The veneer on the center channel is quartersawn white oak, the tight grain pattern is a close match to the white ash - now if I could only get the color right.

So far I've been using oil based Varathane finishes, and have been layering different colors with layers of shellac in between. I've come so close to matching it, but the problem I keep running into is when you look at the finish I've made at a (very sharp) oblique angle, it looks red and stands out like a sore thumb. When you look at the T.V. stand from the same angle its just brown.

I'm not really sure where to go from here, I keep trying to mix different colors but without much success. Can any of the seasoned woodworkers here offer any recommendations? The color I'm looking for is sort of orangish-brown when you view it straight on, but when you view it from an angle its just brown. I've thought of trying different brands but the stores around here don't seem to have much to choose from. Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!

Mark,

I picked up some of this stuff at Woodcraft, http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...tones-set.aspx when I was building my equipment rack. I used it to stain wood putty to match the cherry hardwood I was using and it turned out perfect, though it did take a few interations to get it right. It's good for dying stains, paints, etc. If you have a stain thats close you could tint it a bit at a time to get it where it needs to be. Might be worth a try?

Steve

[Mark_1042]

Thanks all, some great ideas here. I think I'm going to try a couple more color combinations with the stains I've got, then go to the dyes Steve suggested if that doesn't work, and go the Sherwin Williams route if all else fails. A question on those dyes Steve: have you noticed any fading of the colors at all? The wood finishing book I have says that pigments are more light fast than dyes (no matter how fade resistant they claim to be), but many of the dyes I've seen advertised say they have good fade resistance. Perhaps the technology has improved since this book was written (2005)?

Here's some pics of the center channel so far (everybody loves pics :B ). As you can see, the baffle is not attached so I have it clamped on. The center channel is mounted on a sliding mechanism so it can slide in and out of the cabinet. I'll probably be doing a brief build thread at some point:

Images not available

[CADman_ks]

After seeing your pictures, I'd say that you have another question that you need to deal with first.

Do you want the stain to match when:

1. The doors are closed
2. The doors are open
3. The doors are open and the speaker slid out

There is not going to be as much light getting into that cabinet even with the glass doors, and the "surroundings" inside are "dark" (the insides of the cabinet) as compared to the lighter walls of the surroundings of the outside of the cabinet.

Because of that, I don't think that you'll find a stain that matches in ALL of the three situations above. Now couple that with the previous posts about white oak, and the fact that it's different than the maple that you started with, and you have a tough road to go there.

With that being said, I've often found that sometimes it's better NOT to try to match stains dead nuts, especially across different wood species. Or, if I do or want to, I just get it as close as I can, and call it good. Most likely, you'll be the only one that will ever know, even though that will drive you crazy.

My council is get 'er close and call it good....

[Steve Manning]

To answer your question about fading ...... I have not seen any so far. I finished the project I used it on, an equipment rack, back in 2011. I did use it to tint wood putty rather than stain, so I would expect the putty to age a little differently than the real wood. The color did change a little differently when I put the clear finish on it compared to the real wood, I'll attach a few pictures. This would not be an issue since you are dying the entire project.

I'm with CADman on getting it close enough though, if your new box is a different species of wood it's going to fade differently anyway, and I can attest to driving one's self crazy trying to get it perfect, I'm never completely happy with any project, though I still keep trying.

Here's a few pictures of where I used the dyed putty...... left side at the intersection of the cherry top cap there's a little chipping if you look close.



After finish ......



A comparison of how the color change some after putting the finish on, blended in very well with no finish .... something else to keep in mind next time I use it.

[CADman_ks]

.... The color did change a little differently when I put the clear finish on it compared to the real wood, I'll attach a few pictures....

This is an excellent point on the final "clear" finish. It WILL change the color of the stain. I just did a piece of furniture over Xmas and when I started adding poly I was scared that the overall color was going to be too dark. It turned out just fine in the end, but was definitely a different color than just the stain on raw wood...

[JonMarsh]

To answer your question about fading ...... I have not seen any so far. I finished the project I used it on, an equipment rack, back in 2011. I did use it to tint wood putty rather than stain, so I would expect the putty to age a little differently than the real wood. The color did change a little differently when I put the clear finish on it compared to the real wood, I'll attach a few pictures. This would not be an issue since you are dying the entire project.

I'm with CADman on getting it close enough though, if your new box is a different species of wood it's going to fade differently anyway, and I can attest to driving one's self crazy trying to get it perfect, I'm never completely happy with any project, though I still keep trying.

Here's a few pictures of where I used the dyed putty...... left side at the intersection of the cherry top cap there's a little chipping if you look close.



After finish ......



A comparison of how the color change some after putting the finish on, blended in very well with no finish .... something else to keep in mind next time I use it.

Really nice work on that equipment rack, Steve... If we had a woodworking hall of fame in Mission Possible, I'd nominate that for it!

[CADman_ks]

Really nice work on that equipment rack, Steve... If we had a woodworking hall of fame in Mission Possible, I'd nominate that for it!

I concur. Very simple and elegant. I like the contrasting woods....

[Mark_1042]

I concur. Very simple and elegant. I like the contrasting woods....

Definitely, excellent work Steve. :T Thanks for the follow up as well - thats some excellent work blending that putty in.

[Mark_1042]

After seeing your pictures, I'd say that you have another question that you need to deal with first.

Do you want the stain to match when:

1. The doors are closed
2. The doors are open
3. The doors are open and the speaker slid out

There is not going to be as much light getting into that cabinet even with the glass doors, and the "surroundings" inside are "dark" (the insides of the cabinet) as compared to the lighter walls of the surroundings of the outside of the cabinet.

Because of that, I don't think that you'll find a stain that matches in ALL of the three situations above. Now couple that with the previous posts about white oak, and the fact that it's different than the maple that you started with, and you have a tough road to go there.

With that being said, I've often found that sometimes it's better NOT to try to match stains dead nuts, especially across different wood species. Or, if I do or want to, I just get it as close as I can, and call it good. Most likely, you'll be the only one that will ever know, even though that will drive you crazy.

My council is get 'er close and call it good....

That's some excellent advice - I tend to waste time once in a while trying to get things perfect.

From your list, I'm shooting for #3 - a good match when the doors are open and center slid out. It hasn't been a difficult color to match if your standing close and looking at it more "straight on," but when looking at it from the other side of the room and at more of an angle it no longer matches.

I'd like to get it a little bit closer so I'm trying some different color combinations, and will see if those work. I'll post if I make any progress, though it might be a while. Thanks for the input all.

[CADman_ks]

...

From your list, I'm shooting for #3 - a good match when the doors are open and center slid out...

I would guess that this scenario is the "easiest" to match, but I think that easiest is relative in this case, especially given the two species part of the equation.

Good luck! You'll get there...

[Mark_1042]

I would guess that this scenario is the "easiest" to match, but I think that easiest is relative in this case, especially given the two species part of the equation.

Good luck! You'll get there...

Thanks CADman - I *think* I made some progress today - I seem to have the color right for the most part, but it needs to be a bit darker. For a while there I was giving some serious thought to going to Sherwin Williams, I'll see how things go with this color though.

I don't think the different wood species should be too much of an issue - white oak and white ash are both hardwoods so I think they should take the stain in a similar manner. White ash and quartersawn oak also have a very similar grain pattern, with the wood rays in the quartersawn oak being the most distinguishing characteristic between the two.

It sure is tough trying to match 2 colors though, especially when dealing with factory manufactured furniture. There appears to be quite a few layers to the factory finish. Keeping my patience has been... difficult. :B

[PMazz]

Many times, a factory finish will have a tinted topcoat to even out the color.

[Mark_1042]

So I took a door off of my cabinet and brought it to Sherwin Williams, the guy takes one look at it and says "oh yeah, Chestnut." Grabs a can off the shelf and dabs a little on the piece of veneer I brought with me, then tells me to throw some poly on it and that should give me my color. I was a little skeptical but went home and tried it, and sure enough - its a dead on match, or at least as close as it gets. I don't know whether to be happy or feel foolish for all the time I spent trying to mix one up. :B

So yeah, thanks for the recommendation Pmazz. The stains at Sherwin Williams are a little more expensive but having people who know what they're doing work with you is well worth it, and I would recommend them any day of the week.

[PMazz]

:T

I'm a little surprised that an off the shelf color worked so well. They usually have to tweak it a little to get it right. Cool beans!

[CADman_ks]

... I was a little skeptical but went home and tried it, and sure enough - its a dead on match, or at least as close as it gets. I don't know whether to be happy or feel foolish for all the time I spent trying to mix one up. :B

...

This is GREAT news! Glad to hear that it all worked out, and in the end it was even easy as a bonus!!!

[JKB]

Glad it worked out.

I skimmed through the posts and don't think this was mentioned so I'll add it for anyone else dealing with this issue:


Take a door or shelf from what you are trying to match to Sherwin Williams (as previously mentioned), but also take a decent sized piece of scrap from the wood used on the project for them to try samples on and tweak until achieving a satisfactory match.

Even the same type of wood will look different based on the way the finish is applied. Anything bought with a finish already on it was likely sprayed on and baked in an oven similar to a car. And ply will finish different that solid woods most of the time as well.

Or you can do like our painters and just start with a standard color that's close and get the pigments/dyes and adjust it yourself until you get what you like.

And once you get it to where it doesn't look to yellow, red or whatever and its just a little light, just apply more stain. Sometimes on our cabinet doors, they are sanded so smooth from the factory, that it doesn't just wick up as much stain as the styles and in order to match to solid wood styles the stain needs to actually be applied with a brush the second time and be allowed to sit on top of the wood (almost like a paint) in order to match properly.

Another thing to sample with is whether or not to use conditioner prior to staining. I would recommend it as it allows the softer parts of the wood to soak up the conditioner and not end up with a dark spot bc it took more stain than the other areas.


I didn't intend for that to end up being a novel, but thought it might be helpful for anyone else trying to match up some stain.