Dealing with thick veneer

[Paul Ebert]

I have this wonderful birds eye maple veneer that I bought for my Trilliums. The only problem with it is that it is very thick (perhaps 1/32 inch). It has two or, most likely, three layers of wood backing. This results in a rather conspicuous line at the corners (OK, go ahead, call me obsessive). Here's a poor attempt at a photo with the arrow showing the line:



The only idea I've come up with to not have this line show is to miter the veneer at the corners, but I fear this requires precision way beyond what I'm capable of. I'm not even sure how I'd make the miter on each side, much less getting them to line up and be tight.

Any other ideas?

[Carl V]

have you considered Hardwood edges....router out the corner
and put maple into the corner...then either leave it squared up,
round over it or Champfer.

[DancesWithBeers]

So, the problem, I take it, is the wood backing? If the maple itself is 1/32" thick, then why not stick the veneer, maple side down, to some flat wood with double sided carpet tape (might want to protect the maple with blue tape), and then pass it through a thickness planer to thin the backer until it won't be conspicuous? I've never heard of anyone doing this, but it sounds like it might work...

You'd have to have it very flat, but given the thickness of the maple, you could probably sand out any high spots.

-DWB

[Paul Ebert]

Yes, the problem is the backing. The maple itself is rather thick, but since it's the same color, it is not a problem.

Hardwood edges could work. I'll have to think about it - it would be a lot of work given the Avalon style front baffle.

It also occurred to me that there might be a way to crease the veneer over the 45 degree corners of the facets. I imagine I'd have to score the backing somehow to make this work. I've also considered buying some not-so-thick veneer for the baffles. For both these solutions, I'd still have to deal with the sides, top, and back, but maybe I could live with the line there (or use the hardwood idea).

I wonder if there's a way to remove the backing near the edges? I wonder if a router could do that. If I could remove, say, a half inch of backing and then do some judicious sanding of the backing to smooth the transition of the backing thickness, perhaps that would work.

It would have been nice if they had used similarly colored wood for the backing...

[Rolex]

Your complaint is a legitiment one. This is one of the reasons I was driven to raw veneer. Requires a different set of tools to complete properly, but there is no edge detail I like better. Even with the thinest paper backing, you can still see an edge line.

Good luck with your project, I'll be interested to hear which direction you go.

[JonMarsh]

Have to agree with Rolex on this one, which is why I also use thicker solid veneer without backing- it's a bit more expensive (maybe more than "a bit"), but the results speak for themselves. You can use a combination of the two, as long as the last material on the edge is the solid veneer, and it overlaps the other. That can be tricky to arrange with some cabinet shapes.

[Paul Ebert]

Jon, might you be willing to share a source for such veneer? Perhaps I can purchase some thick plain maple and use it for the edges with the birds-eye inserted as an overlay of sorts. If the thicknesses are similar enough, that might work.

[JonMarsh]

One source I use because it's convenient to me is my local Woodcraft (there's one about 10 miles away in Dublin)- I just bought about $300 worth of Maple veneer from them, combinations of paper backed and solid, for my project in progress- they have what looks like some fairly decent solid figured curly maple as well as birds eye, 48" long pieces, sequence matched.

They source from Sauers and Company, which I've used in the past, for both Walnut and rosewood solid veneers. They supply others and do business direct on the web, too.


Sauers & Company

Another good source for veneer and tools/supplies is Veneer Supplies.

Veneer Supplies

The only real "hassle" with this approach is that you do have to do veneer flattening on these products, using a product like Pro Glue Veneer softener- it's something of a weekend project, due to the time needed for drying it and changing out absorptive sheets; I use melamine veneered PB planks, like you get for bookshelves, to do that.

Veneer supplies caries veneer tape and specialized tools, too.

[Paul Ebert]

Approximately how thick is this veneer? My wood-on-wood looks to be about 1/32 inches thick. I did a quick web search and found a few sources for 1/16 inch thick veneer. Is that what you use?

[JonMarsh]

It's 1/32 if I recall correctly. It's one ply only, it's not NBL or multi-ply. I have some 1/16" stock, too, in some hardwoods, but that's considered thin sheet.

[ColoradoTom]

Approximately how thick is this veneer? My wood-on-wood looks to be about 1/32 inches thick. I did a quick web search and found a few sources for 1/16 inch thick veneer. Is that what you use?

Here are some other options for sourcing veneers:

B&B RARE WOODS

http://www.wood-veneers.com/inventory.htm

Herzog Veneers

http://www.veneeronline.com

I just finished up an entertainment center using products from both companies and I can confirm that both are very good.

Tom

[Paul Ebert]

I got a chance to measure the thickness of my veneer and it is about 0.026". So, it's not really any thicker than standard wood on wood.

I'm thinking about buying some of this thick raw veneer to cover the lines. How do you attach the raw veneer? Is anything different other than using the softener? Will it be much harder to do the raw then backed? I've never done any veneering and I'm already nervous, but I'm willing to give it a try if the result is better and it's not too much more difficult.

There's a Woodcraft in Rochester NY (about an hour away). Are their prices competitive? It would be nice to be able to see what I'm buying.

[JonMarsh]

You've got Questions, we've got answers... oops, wrong commercial

I got a chance to measure the thickness of my veneer and it is about 0.026". So, it's not really any thicker than standard wood on wood.

I'm thinking about buying some of this thick raw veneer to cover the lines. How do you attach the raw veneer? Is anything different other than using the softener? Will it be much harder to do the raw then backed? I've never done any veneering and I'm already nervous, but I'm willing to give it a try if the result is better and it's not too much more difficult.

There's a Woodcraft in Rochester NY (about an hour away). Are their prices competitive? It would be nice to be able to see what I'm buying.

The 48" veneer packs from Sauers & company are sequence matched, so it's easy to do nice looking stuff with mirror image veneer on a panel, for example.

I do all my veneering with the PVA glue method, that is, coating substrate to veneer and veneer and letting set a few hours, then coating again lightly, letting set about 30 minutes to an hour, then doing the hot iron thing. I don't recommend contact cement, particularly not the water soluble stuff.

Personally, I prefer solid veneer because there's more material available if you need to sand, and you're less likely to go through the veneer. Paper backed is certainly easy to work with otherwise, especially for large flat areas- I'll be using it on the sides of this next project, but with solid veneer on the front and facet faces.

Veneer softening and flattening is a bit of a pain, just time consuming, not difficult. You'll need time on and off for a couple of days to flatten and dry. Melamine bookshelf boards with paper towels work well for that.

Solid veneers come in moderate wide strips, any where from 4-1/2" to 6-1/2" wide from Sauer & Company, wider from some sources, so you have to do your own seaming with veneer tape. But for my front panels, for example, that's only two sections. They can be overlaid and cut with a utility knife (do it from the bottom, not top), or one can use my unpatented melamine shelving board technique, where you sandwich the two pieces of veneer between two shelving boards, aligning the straight edges exactly on the side, with the two pieces of veneer poking out just a skosh, then trim with a veneer trim bit in router- cuts very straight, usually works pretty well. It MUST be a sharp, clean bit- if in doubt, clean the bit edges first with acetone or other strong solvent (I hear even oven cleaner works well cleaning up router bits with MDF or wood resin burned on them).

If you're feeling really unsure about technique, pick up a book or two about veneering- you probably won't need 75% or more of the material in them, but it can be useful for hints and techniques you might not otherwise think about.

I did my first veneering projects back in the mid 70s- nothing has really changed about the concepts since then- I just have better tools now, and even higher expectations! :W A little patience and research go a long way.

I picked up some more birds-eye maple this weekend at Woodcraft, they had another packet in that looked nice, along with my backordered stuff, some veneer tape, and tools for installing machine screw inserts (yes, this is going to be the most OCD project I'll ever have posted on HT Guide by the time it's done! )

[Rolex]

How do you attach the raw veneer? Is anything different other than using the softener? Will it be much harder to do the raw then backed? I've never done any veneering and I'm already nervous, but I'm willing to give it a try if the result is better and it's not too much more difficult.

Yes, there are many differences in my opinion. First, I would never iron on raw veneer. Too much expansion/contraction in the veneer and cracks are very, very likely. Raw veneer is much more unstable than backed. In my early days of veneering I started with backed veneer, thought raw veneer was the exact same (and cheaper), so bought a bunch. I ruined a number of speakers and blew a bunch of money before I figured out the difference between raw and backed. You may have to seam some depending on species. Lately I've been buying stuff that is 10-14 inches wide, so it has not always been a necessity.

A caul system, or a vacuum system is the best and only way to go in my opinion. Though I still use PVA. The hardcore guys won't touch PVA, they say there is too much movement. Urea resins are what the big players are using. Unibond 800 comes to mind. I'm nervous to try it in my basement (odors).... Lately I have been using the vacuum system with great success. I bought the smaller pump and bag, which works great if you stick with stand mount speakers like I do. Attached is one of my latest projects. This pair I had to book match seam the side panels. The veneer is block mottle anigre...

[Evil Twin]

Very handsome work.

[JonMarsh]

A caul system, or a vacuum system is the best and only way to go in my opinion. Though I still use PVA. The hardcore guys won't touch PVA, they say there is too much movement. Urea resins are what the big players are using. Unibond 800 comes to mind. I'm nervous to try it in my basement (odors).... Lately I have been using the vacuum system with great success. I bought the smaller pump and bag, which works great if you stick with stand mount speakers like I do. Attached is one of my latest projects. This pair I had to book match seam the side panels. The veneer is block mottle anigre...

A very nice looking project; Paul's problem is that he has a rather large pair of speakers that would not be amenable to vacuum veneering at this point.



Agree about the Unibond 800, with a vacuum system or small presses- good stuff.

For iron on application, which I've had good experience with, a better glue choice (other than price) is Heat Lock iron on adhesive, available from VeneerSupplies.com.

About $35 per gallon.


This may help you, too.

Veneering hints with Heat Lock

[Rolex]

the next size up bag from mine would be appropriate for a speaker that size, and is still reasonable price wise. I limited my self because of bag choice, but it certaily does not have to be that way.

[JonMarsh]

The vacuum bags are tough enough that they don't rupture over the driver openings when evacuated enough to get 8-10 psi veneering pressure? That's a lot of pressure over an 8" diameter woofer opening.

I'd say I haven't followed vacuum veneering close enough- I'd been under the impression it was for flat or board type pieces. Can you do this with already built cabinets with driver holes, like above?

What I've read in the past about using platens for the veneer press and general techniques seems only suitable to flat panel veneering, not to an assembled or complex surface. Any online resources you can point us to, Rolex?

[Paul Ebert]

Rolex, that anigre is gorgeous. Very handsome speakers, indeed. But, using a vacuum press is not really an option - too $$$ (in addition to the problem Jon raised).

Jon, do you think the fact that the veneer you've been using is a bit thicker than normal makes the difference in your experiences?

I wonder if the line would be as visible with paper backed? I assume the paper is light in color?

[Carl V]

The vacuum bags are tough enough that they don't rupture over the driver openings when evacuated enough to get 8-10 psi veneering pressure? That's a lot of pressure over an 8" diameter woofer opening.

[B]In my experience it's a problem...a big Bang of problem.
Been there done that. I've used the bag method at a shop
and we did it first then cut rebates & holes. Another time
we bagged flat stock then built the cabinet with the intention
of using hardwood corners.[/B]

I'd say I haven't followed vacuum veneering close enough- I'd been under the impression it was for flat or board type pieces. Can you do this with already built cabinets with driver holes, like above?

What I've read in the past about using platens for the veneer press and general techniques seems only suitable to flat panel veneering, not to an assembled or complex surface. Any online resources you can point us to, Rolex?

I haven't used that shop or bagging in quite a few years. I too use the
iron method with the aforementioned $35 glue. One of these days I'd
like to try facets. But the last time I did 45 degree chamfers made me
want to scream.

[JonMarsh]

Paul,

I've seen various techniques work more or less OK, as far as the results with a skilled practitioner, but for myself, it's human nature to stay with what you're experienced with and what has worked. I understand the basis for Rolex's comments about PVA, and you'll see similar thoughts on some sites, like Joe Woodworker, which is oriented toward DIY would working (i.e., non-professional). OTOH, "our own" Pete Mazz has also used the PVA technique for years with good results, as well as others I know, so the fact that it's worked for me in the 70's and more recently isn't just a fluke. Controlling the heat, distributing it carefully, not having the iron still, these all have their affect. I've used it both for solid veneer and for paper backed 10 mil. And will be doing that again, I expect, though I'm tempted to try the Heat Lock glue. A little flex in the veneer glue may not be all that bad a thing, and I've had no issues with it not being hard enough to sand clean. But while it sets strong enough in a few hours, the final hardness with PVA may take days.

I've used the 10 mil paper back stuff for large less critical areas like sides and back, and the solid veneer for front, facets, top; applied after the paper backed veneer, so that it hides the edge on that. Realistically, if you're much distance away from the speaker, it may not show much anyway.

I should be tackling this around the end of this month- have two weeks off then. If it's a disaster, I'll let you know! :W Then you can follow someone else's suggestions! :W I do want this to look nice, but I'm more concerned about the acoustics, of course. I need to do that part quick, because in my current mfr plan, I'll be veneering the front panel this time before finishing the final driver holes, so it will be done before I start measuring. It's harder to do it the other way.

~Jon

[jkrueger]

I veneered my big selah 3-ways by putting them in a large bag. They were curved sides and holes already cut in the front baffle. I covered the holes with 3/4 inch plywood platten. No problem. Just ordered myself a veneer press from veneersupplies this week.

[Rolex]

The vacuum bags are tough enough that they don't rupture over the driver openings when evacuated enough to get 8-10 psi veneering pressure? That's a lot of pressure over an 8" diameter woofer opening.

I'd say I haven't followed vacuum veneering close enough- I'd been under the impression it was for flat or board type pieces. Can you do this with already built cabinets with driver holes, like above?

What I've read in the past about using platens for the veneer press and general techniques seems only suitable to flat panel veneering, not to an assembled or complex surface. Any online resources you can point us to, Rolex?

The bags are certainly tough enough. When you move to a 30 mil polyurethane bag (quite expensive) there will be zero issues. (I use a 20 mil vinyl bag and have no problems) I prefer to cut my driver opens after after the cabinet is veneered. Regarding implosion of cabinets, it is my belief that a properly braced cabinet will do just fine in most consumer bags. I personally have not had one fail yet.

Bags are certainly not just for flat panels. That's why cold presses are for. Bags are for unique shapes and things that are tough to veneer with a caul system. The speakers I posted above are stacked lamination construction that were then veneered in my bag.

I can't speak the absolute truth in veneering as it is a new technique to me. I have only been veneering for a handful of years. But, one thing is for sure, I know what works for me in my shop.

Regarding any links, this site opened my eyes:

http://www.vacupress.com/

There is a forum section that might be quite helpful.

[BigguyZ]

For my next pair of speakers, I'm looking to make them as nice as possible, and therefore I'm willing to sink some good $$ into the cabinets. As such, I'm looking at raw veneers since it can deal with the issue of having the line show for the backing.

So, I figure as much as I'm spending on the veneer alone, why not spend $300 for the pump and the bag? Then I'll have it for future projects. If you think about it- if it saves time, and prevents issues in just one speaker pair- you've saved you money right there.

The thing for me right now is finding a low cost pump to use... I have one that I found online, but they sold out.

[ColoradoTom]

For my next pair of speakers, I'm looking to make them as nice as possible, and therefore I'm willing to sink some good $$ into the cabinets. As such, I'm looking at raw veneers since it can deal with the issue of having the line show for the backing.

So, I figure as much as I'm spending on the veneer alone, why not spend $300 for the pump and the bag? Then I'll have it for future projects. If you think about it- if it saves time, and prevents issues in just one speaker pair- you've saved you money right there.

The thing for me right now is finding a low cost pump to use... I have one that I found online, but they sold out.

This is where I was a few years ago.... I decided to get a bag and pump that would allow a 2 foot by 8 foot capability. I recently had a project where I had some beautiful cherry and macassar ebony that I wanted to use for an entertainment center project. I've included two pictures... one shows the top (which is the cherry veneer with a "faceted" walnut border) the other shows a front shot where you can see the ebony as a dark band under the top. With a vacuum veneer press and pump this was a relativly simple project.







I'll be using this bag on my next couple of DIY speaker projects with a couple of "tricks" I'll pass on as I start to build.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Very nice looking work, Tom! :T There's a real example of a craftsman at work!

BTW, I got a new precision taper jig, and Franken-saw has risen from the dead. Two weeks off the end of June, I expect to be pretty busy then- just dropped $500 more on tools and materials today.

[ColoradoTom]

Very nice looking work, Tom! :T There's a real example of a craftsman at work!

BTW, I got a new precision taper jig, and Franken-saw has risen from the dead. Two weeks off the end of June, I expect to be pretty busy then- just dropped $500 more on tools and materials today.

So many tools.... so little time. I recently got the Festool Domino and the larger Festool plunge saw (TS 75) along with a 16 inch belt sander. With the plunge saw and a hybrid technique I should be able easily, accuratly, and safely cut 45 degree facets 8+ inches wide... looking forward to the new three-way design.

I also picked up several hundred square feet of various veneers (santos rosewood, ebony, crotch walnut, walnut burl, and figured cherry) as well as ~1000 board feet of butternut, cherry and walnut. Lots of options for DIY speaker finishes and furniture for the family!!!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

My gosh, are you going to be busy!!! That Festool looks pretty nice. :T

My Ryobi setup (BT3100 + 81829) can do 3-1/2" cuts, so we'll see.

IF all goes as planned, I'll even be bringing them out to Denver during RMAF in October so maybe you could come out and critique them. :W

[ColoradoTom]

My gosh, are you going to be busy!!!

You have NO idea.... everyone should learn a lesson here...............

Tom's wife (looking at furniture at local high end store): "Sweetie... we need a new entertainment center for the family room"

Tom: "Whatever"

Tom's wife: "What do you think of this?"

Tom: "$4000.00 for something that isn't even solid wood!! Heck I could build you something twice as nice for one tenth the cost!"

I now have close to 10 "projects" in various stages of development for various family members. I should have kept my mouth shut.....................

Colorado "Where'd all my free time go" Tom

[ColoradoTom]

My gosh, are you going to be busy!!! That Festool looks pretty nice. :T

My Ryobi setup (BT3100 + 81829) can do 3-1/2" cuts, so we'll see.

IF all goes as planned, I'll even be bringing them out to Denver during RMAF in October so maybe you could come out and critique them. :W

That would be fun..... I'll bring some of this for you and ThomasW.

[JonMarsh]

You have NO idea.... everyone should learn a lesson here...............

Tom's wife (looking at furniture at local high end store): "Sweetie... we need a new entertainment center for the family room"

Tom: "Whatever"

Tom's wife: "What do you think of this?"

Tom: "$4000.00 for something that isn't even solid wood!! Heck I could build you something twice as nice for one tenth the cost!"

I now have close to 10 "projects" in various stages of development for various family members. I should have kept my mouth shut.....................

Colorado "Where'd all my free time go" Tom

And as Paul Harvey would have said, "And now you know the real story!"

No good deed goes unpunished, you know....

[Paul Ebert]

Very nice entertainment center, Tom. Has a bit of James Krenov influence, which I like a lot.

I ordered some 12" by 24" birdseye from Veneer Supplies. Paid only $15 for 9 sheets. Should be just the ticket for trying my hand at ironing on raw veneer. Who knows, if it goes well, maybe I'll have birdseye ht speakers.

I wonder if applying shellac to the veneer prior to the PVA glue might make it less susceptible to the moisture in the glue and, hence, less likely to have problems. I may give that a try. Or, would the shellac cause problems of its own?

[JonMarsh]

The shellac will seal the veneer, preventing bleedthrough, and should prevent it from curling; but you may or may not find that to be a problem- it can be a bit variable depending on specie.

[ColoradoTom]

Very nice entertainment center, Tom. Has a bit of James Krenov influence, which I like a lot.

I ordered some 12" by 24" birdseye from Veneer Supplies. Paid only $15 for 9 sheets. Should be just the ticket for trying my hand at ironing on raw veneer. Who knows, if it goes well, maybe I'll have birdseye ht speakers.

I wonder if applying shellac to the veneer prior to the PVA glue might make it less susceptible to the moisture in the glue and, hence, less likely to have problems. I may give that a try. Or, would the shellac cause problems of its own?

Paul.....

Thanks for the kudos. My wife has seen some of the crotch walnut veneer I have and wants me to make two more "sample" doors to see if they wiil look better than the plain cherry. I have glued up "book matched" pairs and I must admit that the figure in the walnut is real wood porn.

To answer your question:
I'm pretty sure shellac will inhibit the full curing of a waterbased adhesive like a PVA glue. Most of these type of adhesives harden in two steps, first is the evaporation of the water, second is the mixing of oxygen with the remaining chemicals to produce full strengh and hardness. Shellac will impede the evaporation of the water and also impede the passage of oxygen used for the full cure. If you try this, make sure that you use a de-waxed shellac.... wax and glue is not a good combination. I would extend curing times if you do decide to try this in any event.

Trivia...

I think I recall that shellac has been used as an adhesive in the past by itself, but since it typically dries so fast I can't imagine what a PITA it would be to coat and clamp an object - the 5 to 10 minute open time for most PVA glues typically has me in panic mode in the workshop.

Tom

[ColoradoTom]

I wonder if applying shellac to the veneer prior to the PVA glue might make it less susceptible to the moisture in the glue and, hence, less likely to have problems. I may give that a try. Or, would the shellac cause problems of its own?

Did a quick search because I'd never heard of it. Doesn't look promising:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fpltn/fpltn-f017.pdf

Tom

[Paul Ebert]

Thanks, Tom. Scratch that idea.