Saint-Saëns planar- AKA SMJ-40- time for a project now?

[JonMarsh]

Making some good progress with the fabrication of the side walls for the LF cabinet. This morning's effort was focused on cutting the rebate grooves which the vertical side braces and front to back inner braces will sit in.

I changed my tack on this, and decided not to use the 1.25" bit that I have for the vertical brace route, because the rounded part would extend too far, compared to using two routing passes with a smaller bit. This necessitates more care in setting up the cut, and referencing the actual cutting bit edge.




Of course, the old standard motto of measure Twice and Cut Once is not necessarily sufficient when yield loss would be so expensive, so I measure many times and check and dial in the alignment carefully across the 40" tall panel...,




Here I have interrupted the 2nd cutting pass, made offset to cover the final desired width while just using a 25/32" bit, just to show how the end result is achieved.




For reference, this is the Right Wall 2D piece part drawing. Should give one an idea of the target of the effort.

[JonMarsh]

Now, here is one of the panels with the vertical brace rebate route finished:





I completed the vertical brace routes on all four side panels, then went back to do the shorter rebates for the front to rear braces.

These are easier, because there is a center mark notch on the DW621 base, which can be used for alignment reference, and then setting up the clamp guide for the 25/32" cut is pretty straight forward.




Even the longer front to rear rebate for the middle brace is pretty straightforward, just longer...

[JonMarsh]

Gluing large parts up is a stage of work where having more space would sure come in handy- lacking that, slow work takes time!

[JonMarsh]

Internal braces are on the menu now... 9" ripped from 9-1/2" stock from WoodworkersSource.



Cutting the length and width is no big deal- the circle cuts are the tedious part, using my smaller drill press (too lazy Thursday to move the big boy up onto the drill table), but Milwaukee Hole Dozers make the job as easy as you can expect.




And the WIP result of our slow work takes time effort:




Well, if you're looking at all those nice clean cores I saved, and wondering if there might not be something useful that could be done with them, well, join the club! I have an idea... it involves cabinet footers.

[JonMarsh]

Time to wrap up the interior braces. I'm probably over sharing here, but it's all part of letting you see how I grind the sausage. (bet you'll never buy sausage from me!!)

One of the more time consuming operations (as always) is setting up templates for special cuts and executing them with my Bosch router with the template bit adapter. Here, it's just the cutouts that go around the vertical braces, and of course, since no one will SEE YOURS except YOU, you can just get out the sabre saw and skip much of this.

Alas, I have to work to a slightly higher standard, not as high as Steve's, since I'm just a wire and sparks guy, but folks still seem to have expectations...

So it's time to break out a BK1 phenolic sheet, cut up, and cut up and J-BWeld up a brace for managing the side cutouts... as shown here:





I use a number of scrap pieces of the maple ply to setup the work and provide clearance for the clamps, as well as an under board that the last cut can break through into...

A very brief hint about how the router setup works... with a 1/2" spiral upcut bit in the router, and the template guide for 1/2" cutting bit installed. This requires a Bosch template accessory to be added to the router baseplate.





The "trick" is setting up the depth bar and the turret so that you have the desired range of cuts from the initial to just breaking through in a few easy steps...


First cut is not the hardest...





Three steps and I've completed the cutout...

[JonMarsh]

With all the holes cut, all that's left is the round overs, which again, might be considered optional...

My Woodpeck router base guide did finally come in, so that got installed on the DeWalt DW621- just four screws, and they have a very nice color printed installation guide which makes it easy to identify the correct mounting holes from the overall pattern.





This really does a great job of stabilizing the base for use with a 1/4" radius round over bit.


I did a round over on all the interior edges, including the cut outs for the vertical braces.





It should go without saying, but let's say it anyway, all of this work was done with ear protectors, eye protection, and a KN95 mask for protection from dust.

[ergo]

Keep 'em coming Jon - very good material to look at and helps dreaming of a day I can get back to it as well.

I'm waiting for this one to arrive... it was a Kickstarter project and it's bit behind in schedule but promise is good

https://www.ussadesign.com/products/multifunctional-trim-router-jig

[JonMarsh]

That looks really Cool, Ergo! Good link, I gotta be extra careful around this kinda stuff, you know!

Must resist.... must resist! The power of the Dark Side lures even me!

[JonMarsh]

But I expect I will give in, after I order the last of the phenolic and HDPE sheets that I need...

It's just too slick and multi-functional for me to pass up!

[Steve Manning]

Keep 'em coming Jon - very good material to look at and helps dreaming of a day I can get back to it as well.

I'm waiting for this one to arrive... it was a Kickstarter project and it's bit behind in schedule but promise is good

https://www.ussadesign.com/products/multifunctional-trim-router-jig

Like waving a red flag in front of a bull ..... 😁

[JonMarsh]

Indeed...

[JonMarsh]

OK, lets get some detailed work done on the back panels- have to admit I cut these out back in late 2023, taken a while to get to this point...

Here's a render of the current WIP:




This is pretty similar to the MF-HF input panel sizing, but the actual panel will be 3/4" phenolic instead of 3/8", as it will be under acoustic pressure loading from the woofers.

Here's a cut down render with the input panel in place, with the rebate and through hole for the "vintage" binding posts.






Those binding posts rebates and holes may look odd to you, as well as the positioning... these are some "vintage" parts from the early 20 teens, and I've been saving them for a major project. This seems like the right one... nice handles to make snugging down connections for spade lugs easy.




The back panel pieces is raised up on some scrap boards and the template for the through cuts is clamped on one side. This has to be a two step process- routing one U shaped section, then moving the clamps and routing the other, of course using the turret steps to gradually cut deeper and deeper with a spiral up cut bit.




Of course, after each routing pass, one needs to stop and vac up the wood chips.




The router cut should be done progressively deeper, setting up the depth bar and the turret setting so that on the last one you just skim the work piece support.

[JonMarsh]

This is how things looked after completing a cut through operation for the center opening, after relocating the clamps and routing down the "inverted" U.




Finishing this on both back walls, now we have two more nicely cut scrap pieces of 1-1/4" maple ply to use for whatever comes up!




Next up will be marking the outline for the rebate, and setting up to use the MF-LF template in two positions to cover the slightly wider rebate requirement. Rather do that than fabricate another template!

[technodanvan]

Will those little binding posts go through a 3/4" chunk of material? Doesn't seem like a lot of thread.

[JonMarsh]

That's why there is a major rebate, to clear the larger ring, which is 0.375" deep, in the input panel.

[JonMarsh]

Time to make more saw dust, er.. router dust! Been doing a lot of that, have more to go!

This is about doing the rebate route, which itself works best in two stages, because I must clamp one side of the template or the other, and even with a nominal trim router, I can't route the entire shape with even just two clamps in place. So, I route one side, shift the clamps, then route the other.

Those with true wood working skills can probably get the template piece to stay in place just by the Force of their personality, but my Padawan skills don't reach that far!


OK, though I have some big boy routers and bits I could have pressed into this task, I decided to try the "Goldilocks" approach with a router than was not too big, and not too small, the DeWalt DW611 with the Woodpeckers StabilMax accessory fixture.







I alternated between clamping on the right, and routing down in several pass, 3 with the smaller bit, 3 with the larger bit, then switching clamping sides and finishing up the right side, taking care to have the template tightly aligned with the sides of the WIP.

This shows after a couple of passes on the rebate cut out on the left side:




Here, after a few passes on the right.





The overall goal, of course, is for a 3/4" rebate for the input panel. BTW, if inquiring minds want to know, the panel is as large as it is to support installing and removing the LF crossover board, which is planned to be attached to the bottom of the enclosure.





Here's a pic after all the routing for the input panel is complete:




The phenolic phenolic BK-3 panels are due to arrive tomorrow, so detail fabrication can start for those then, as well as cutting the hole in the top for the MF-HF full range pass through (this will be accomplished using an internal "jumper cable" of Analysis Plus Oval 12 speaker cable. It measured with low loop back inductance and good transmission characteristics relative to cost.

Obviously, this is DIY, an other constructors may choose other options, or wire directly from the power amplifier with a separate long run of cable.

[Steve Manning]

Time to make more saw dust, er.. router dust! Been doing a lot of that, have more to go!

This is about doing the rebate route, which itself works best in two stages, because I must clamp one side of the template or the other, and even with a nominal trim router, I can't route the entire shape with even just two clamps in place. So, I route one side, shift the clamps, then route the other.

Those with true wood working skills can probably get the template piece to stay in place just by the Force of their personality, but my Padawan skills don't reach that far!

Or for those that are weak in the Force we use this ....... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F1BJN6D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Scareurpasenger]

I use this all the time and not even for this purpose. Everyone needs to have a roll!

[JonMarsh]

NOW he tells me!! When I’m almost finished with the routing exercises!

😜

I keep telling you guys I’m a wires and sparks guy, not a wood worker. I think you folk just enjoy watching me fumble around figuring out some DA way to do things and get things done regardless of my lack of knowledge, skills, and experience!

But, tape? Really?!? For holding these parts in position?

Not for me to risk yield loss at this point in time... I'll leave that to others!

😏

[JonMarsh]

Finished my 2 miles walk, and back into the shop this morning!

[Steve Manning]

NOW he tells me!! When I’m almost finished with the routing exercises!

😜

I keep telling you guys I’m a wires and sparks guy, not a wood worker. I think you folk just enjoy watching me fumble around figuring out some DA way to do things and get things done regardless of my lack of knowledge, skills, and experience!

But, tape? Really?!? For holding these parts in position?

Not for me to risk yield loss at this point in time... I'll leave that to others!

😏

I use it to hold parts on the CNC which I can attest will put a lot more stress on the part than a person will. Not to say there's not a bit of a pucker factor to it, but there ya go.

[JonMarsh]

Taping down wooden pieces for CNC versus aligning a template fixture precisely to a wooden part, and adjusting it if needed don't seem to me to be exactly equivalent tasks- I've got this tape added to my Amazon master list, but I'm not sure about a use for it in the near term workflow- one item, securing a drilling template for bases (through holes) and cabinet (threaded inserts) may be served by this.



I'm in the process today of a mostly detail spec work that any DIY constructer could make their own choices about- such as the base attachment methodology (removable) and the hardware for that, plus the initial mounting footers I'm going to adapt a bit and try out- basically a modified Dayton OS-2HD, with a lot of the nuts, bolts and inserts "upgraded", and adding some homemade bamboo footer elements. If that works out and others want info, I'll document it, but for now I'd say it's a DIY element.



Fortunately, it's implemented with M6 and M8 hardware, easy to upgrade, and in fact, already had the M6 stuff on hand, including threaded inserts from Rampa.

My apologies for the lack of forward progress this weekend...
Tool many social engagements setup by my wife this weekend!

😂

Impacting my productivity...

[JonMarsh]

A lot of things went on this weekend not audio related that required some extra time, but I'm getting back in the groove this morning on the back panels.

I made an executive level decision to modify the output panel on the LF back panel, dropping the center to 2.5" below the top edge, and changing the opening to a 2.5" circular hole, which is easier to fabricate manually and meets the overall needs.

Here, just after having marked the hole location, positioned the board for the hole center bit, and clamped it down. This is a Milwaukee Hole Dozer saw; I am NOT an influencer and I get no compensation for mentioning my favorite tools, other than knowing I may be steering others in an interesting or hopefully useful direction.





Here, the finished hole...





OK, confession time- I cheated- half way through the 1.25" maple ply, I flipped the board over and restarted from the other side, using the starter hole that had already come through by this point.




Here, after light sanding the entire back of the board...

And showing the bottom of the LF board with input panel markings sanded off; the corner routing radius is quite evident.




Time to cut the LF input panels out, do the corner rounds for the LF panels and the MF-HF panels on the router table.

[JonMarsh]

Next we'll have some fun with the input panels- need to cut the woofer ones, and doe the corner rounding for the MF-HF input panels and woofer input Panels.

Cutting the BK-3 phenolic is straightforward on my Smiley Face SawStop...






Now, both the MF-HF input panels and the LF input panels are ready for corner radiusing.


This is where Steve's favorite double sided tape does come in handy- a piece is positioned close to the corner to trim, but inside the radius arc:




Next, the 2nd protective layer is peeled off, and the Woodpecker radiusing tool positioned:





Here, you can see the desired result, with a 3/8" radius trim.





After all 4 corners are radiused on the MF-HF panels, a fit check is performed, with the expected result:




and checking the LF input panels in the LF backs:

[JonMarsh]

The other item needing attention on the LF panels is the near flush routing for the output panel binding post set...

OK, this could be considered a bit OCD, but you know what we like to say at SMJ, details count!

Here's the DeWalt router setup, with a flat bottom bit installed for the rebate cut.





the bit cutting depth is set so that the expected depth of cut will match the vertical side of the binding post plate, intersecting at the corner with the bevel. Can we do it? (wait a minute Batman, what's this "we" stuff..' there's no little helper here in the shop!)


Here's the simple setup, I sure do like the convenience of putting a non-slip matt on my SawStop and using that as a work table out from the wall. A template was fabricated the usual way, from a sheet of BK-3 phenolic, glued together with J-B Weld.





Here's the first quick pass, 3/4 around, it's gettin pretty filled up with router dust. In the past some members have complained that the pics I post are always "too clean", don't show the messy details, so here ya go...




Got enough router dust for you? Kind of hard to see any details of the working surface, though...


OK, vac'd that up, and finished the rebate route, the last edge, and all the bits floating around the cut out hole.





This looks like we have what we need- here's a full view.




And, while I did measure the bit depth, and checked it after cutting, this is the "measurement" that counts...

[JonMarsh]

Have a busy morning on other tasks today- just a quick blurb about the general status...

• I'm in the process of making a lot of detail updates on the 3D files and 2D drawing updates- I am expecting to do an update WIP for the interested parties (you know who you are) by this weekend.
• I also expect to start assembling one of the LF cabinets this weekend, if all goes as expected. More detail work to do on entry panels and what not. ("what not" can soak up a lot of unexpected CPU hours...)
• I've also put together an ad hoc plan for the removable base to the LF cabinet, have updated the 3D drawing and prepared a 2D one, and will be transferring that as a drill guide to a 12" x 24" sheet of HDPE. (same stuff which is part of the HF to LF cabinet interface). The base attachment will be done with M6 hardware and Rampa inserts.
• The base is being made removable so that I can experiment with different footer configurations, and be able to replace the whole base if needed. Footer hardware is based on M8.

Here is a screen shot of the base layout work in progress:



While the drawing is using 0.35" as a dimension, the actual through hole drill size will be 11/32".

This is the 2D drawing of the layout, which will be transferred to the template using adhesive backed paper to draw the layout with precision:







And this is the HDPE sheets I selected, available from Amazon.

[JonMarsh]

Updated Detailed MF-HF cabinet rear panel and input panel:


the upper hole is for a level pad for the optional Rear firing Ribbon tweeter for the top octave power response fill (GRS RT 1.0-8)




The fun never stops at AudioWorx!

[JonMarsh]

More Slow Work takes More Time!

Still working on the back panels, today reporting on the LF cabinet panel work.

Of course, keep in mind when I advise techniques and methods, this is the wires and sparks guy talking, not the former nuclear sub Machinist Mate. Ahem, Steve, take a bow, and don't chuckle too much from the sidelines with what follows...




OK, let's kick off with marking up the LF input panels, which serve both to mount the "vintage" binding posts I have, and also as the pathway to installing or removing the LF crossover when the cabinet is fully assembled. (Similar case for the MF-HF cabinets). The crossovers won't fit through the driver holes, and would be hard to wire up that way. More on that phase of the assembly process later.

What I like to do with the phenolic panels is to use self adhesive sheets, in this case, full Letter size sheets with a peel off backing from OnlineLabels.com. You can usually find these in a Staples store.

After peeling off the backing, I align one edge of the label with one long edge of the panel to be drilled.




then, I cut off the corners of the paper at a 45 degree bevel...





Last preparation step is to fold over the paper sides snugly to the sides, and as needed, wrap around to the back.




Then, I grab my favorite drawing triangle and an etched high detail metal rule, and go to work. Reading glasses are optional, depending on the state of your vision...







The Micron03 is my favorite marking pen, a nice sub millimeter line width, and great ink! (details count!)


My black rule is used for the detail measurements and data marks, and the blue triangle for checking alignment and drawing the big picture lines. Needless to say, you better have your table saw flying straight and level and doing VERY square cuts for these kinds of tasks. My SawStop seems to always come through, and has a great fence and alignment process.

[JonMarsh]

Continuing...

At this point, with all the peripheral holes located as well as the binding post holes, we're ready to switch to the drill press. I do NOT recommend hand drilling for this, especially not with the 3/4" thick phenolic.




I drilled the holes for the binding post rebate first, using a 7/8" Irwin Forstner bit. Slow feed and frequent pull backs to clear, of course.




We want this about 0.4" deep for this set of posts. YMMV.


After them, I switched to drilling the basic hole openings for the M4 mounting bolts, which are going to be used as pilot guides for the insert holes in the back panel. Then, the openings in the panel will be opened up a little more, and the threaded insert openings increased to 0.25".





Of course, before moving on, it's not a bad idea to check the rebate fit for the binding posts- one should not be expecting any surprises, and one should not GET any surprises!





Using the through holes in the phenolic panels, use the same size bit and drill pilot holes in the maple ply rear panel.





At this point, you could take a mini-break and drill the 3/8" holes in the center of the binding post rebate panels. Do NOT reverse this sequence, as starting the Forstner bit in a panel with an existing 3/8" hole is guaranteed to be an ugly experience in this hard dense phenolic!


Then, we want to CAREFULLY drill all the holes in the maple ply rear panel with a 1/4" bit, taking some care to align the bit over the center of the pilot hole. This is the size needed for the threaded inserts.

[JonMarsh]

This next bit is when you'll need your MM Allen head wrench, and a bag full of Rampa M4 inserts...


The way I approach this is to get them started with my DeWalt mm tool in the straight mode, then go back around and tighten them down fully with the handle at 90 degrees, to get more leverage and a bit more oomph. That's the technical term, or so Steve tells me...








I like to get the top heads of the inserts just level with the wood surface or a skosh below. That's a technical term that only Nuke Sub machinists mates really understand, so I just go for a half mm or so...

[JonMarsh]

Got a little more done this evening- getting ready to check the assembly for one cabinet, check clearances for crossover, etc, and locating woofer wiring- just assembled some of the damper pads and glued them in, and just placed a few other parts on to see how well the fit is going.

Gluing up with Weicon 310 cartridges and a large glue gun...





These cut panels already had the automotive damping pads installed, and after gluing the heavy felt, were glued to the side wall, using some scrap pieces as spacers from the front panel edge.






Then I wanted to check the fit with the right side panel with a front panel and top panel piece... not expecting any surprises, of course.



The front panel feels rock solid by itself, but should check with some other panes and the square...

Lets slide my favorite angle tool into place and see how close things are...





This was just slid gently into place, and is not supporting or aligning the front panel itself...


OK, lets put a top side panel in place and check how things fit and how square...







that's what I hoped to see, after doing my best to cut to 1/32" tolerance, and keeping everything dead on angle wise.


Here's a perspective shot from the back top corner...




This is like running launch pad checks on a complex rocket, to make sure things are ready to go for final assembly and fueling!

[JonMarsh]

One more quick panel check with all braces and back panel...

[technodanvan]

Looking really nice Jon!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Danny! Making visible progress at last, it feels like!


Broke out the System West Epoxy this morning, and got down to brass tacks and clamps-

and parchment paper, too- to catch glue drips and spills, keeps the ad hoc benches and gear clean. Kirkland in this case- good quality, and very reasonable price for what you're getting.




This stage was just mounting the front to the right wall and gluing in the upper panel- enough to make a triangle!


Of course, have to do sanity and alignment checks...




This afternoon, I figure it's ready to install some of the braces- just the short ones first, and of course using the other wall with it's routed DADO grooves as the alignment guide...




Looks pretty good from the front...





After the J-B Weld sets up, I'll do the center brace first, again using the opposite wall as an alignment guide, then glue up the back wall and crossover platform boards. I'm leaving one wall off for now, to do the internal wiring.

[Gerald Jansen]

I love your attention to detail, and the way you share your efforts being a 'sparks and wires guy'.

[JonMarsh]

I'm glad you enjoy it! I share in case others have ideas to counter suggest, and also to give folks ideas and methods for their own builds. This is a sort of extreme project, I realize- it's been in the works since 2022, evolving slowly, and planning and designing sections and piece parts as well as first doing text cabinet evaluations so that I have a fair idea of what will happen when the complete version gets built.
Several folks are following this, not just in the USA, and have components purchased at opportune times when PE runs sales..

[JonMarsh]

Yesterday evening just for fun I decided to go back and read the Design Story start to this project, which was posted after the announcement of the FR30 and a few video's being posted about first installations.

That was an interesting experience, for two key reasons-

1. to see how much the earlier basis of the Saint-Saens project has evolved (the very first not discussed publicly iteration was a two way line array, followed by a short 4x woofer array and a mid-tweeter module not unlike that for the Kii inspired project) (that isn't dead, and is likely going back to the E180HE-44 woofers)
2. To see how much the 3D CAD tools evolved, well, one in particular, and how much different my work flow is now. Shapr3D rules now, as far as I'm concerned-
   * they substantially upgraded the 2D drawing module to where I find it one of the absolute best
   * the structural editing and flexibility is greatly improved and full edit history is now included-
   * And maybe I'm just getting better at using some of the original 3D capabilities, but they have expanded how sketch planes can be moved and used and saved and shown and hidden. (of course, maybe it's just my consciousness that has been expanded...)

Anyway, net result is that I haven't fired up Shark or TurboCAD since the end of 2022, and do all the work in Shapr3D.

Licensing has been changed a bit, too- I can install on 5 devices, and they still recommend and have improved support on the iPad Pro, but only can activate/run one at a time- but switching is easy. Still, 98% of the time I'm on this Mac Studio Max. Price has not gone up in 2 years. Promising, but I don't expect that to continue indefinitely. However, it did just renew recently, so things are cool for the next year...

I'm going to be doing some more brace work today. Steve probably has a valid point- in his eyes, this design is rather "fiddly", maybe like that old Who song from the Tommy album...

Now, yesterday after assembling and clamping, I was looking at the long vertical braces, and where the lateral braces connecting them would go, (which I hand't created a drawing for yet) and figured I would do a ruler spot check, and compare to the 3D model. Ruler spot check said dead on at 5", and I mean dead on.







well, I can tell I'm still on track, because 5" it is in the dimensioned drawing.

The materials used in this project are a bit off the beaten track, I realize, but consider how much more exotic those used by Wilson Audio, Magico, and Rockport are. So, I'm just trying to go for as much of that level of performance as is feasible within the DIY context. Kind of like the fossilized Bamboo used in the Isiris build. So, maple ply may seem a bit over the top for internal cabinet braces and the front and top and back panels, but you know, they don't make guitar necks from MDF or BB ply- and I have lots of guitars to draw on experience in that regard. And how signature versions of guitars, like the Jeff Beck Stratocaster, or the Slash Les Paul, or the Les Paul Professional are not built like the standard models. For good reasons.




Back to work!

[JonMarsh]

Today's brief workshop session is complete- the J-B Weld takes a while to set.

After loading the DADO trench for the front to back brace with J-B Weld, and coating the front edge, I insert and use the big right angle tool to set the initial perpendicular orientation- if all goes well, the other side will just drop on top and the previously installed braces will drop into their grooves, and so will the center one.


Voila...



Keep in mind I'm still only gluing to the one wall, the one on the bottom here...



And here's the front view, with the clamps bringing the center brace firmly in contact with the front panel. (alignment was dry checked)




Next it's time to round up the parts for securing the woofer cabling, and get ready to start that...

[technodanvan]

Out of curiosity Jon, why the switch the JB Weld? I thought you were an epoxy guy.

[JonMarsh]

The J-B Weld formulation is actually a marine epoxy chemical composition. I use the standard "steel" version. I use it a lot for small detail pieces. It is a two part adhesive, and if you've ever used marine epoxy, you'll recognize the smell immediately.

I use System West 100 series stuff for the main cabinet walls and structures- you know, that comes in two cans, one pump from the resin, one from the hardener, to get the correct mix level. I use the 205 fast hardener with the 105 resin, mix it up in a paint mixing cup, and can apply it with disposable foam brushes.

[JonMarsh]

Had a hot flash yesterday- maybe it was inspiration, maybe it was just perspiration dripping into my eyes, but decided to revise the crossover platform and base configuration, and started a new fork in the 3D drawing chain for that. And pulled the last of my maple ply on hand for the update.

My run to three "local" (a relative term in the Treasure Valley) Ace Hardware stores and I picked up the stuff I needed for securing the speaker wiring and some special washers for the footing solution I will try out first- a mostly pretty much approach using some off the shelf Dayton parts at its core, but with some twists, of course. Wouldn't be interesting otherwise.

Also popped the top off the cabinet at the end of the day, no surprises, other than how pleasant the garage workshop temperature was with the unexpected burst of cool weather yesterday! Of course, pleasant is relative, but 80-85 is much more pleasant than 100+!

[JonMarsh]

OK, a little shout out to Sasylvia on Amazon for the HDPE sheets that I bought from them recently- one for a drilling template, two possibly for bottom side interface on the MF-HF cabinet... seems to be really good quality, a typical application is fabrication of components in a marine environment like seat bases, so my strong morning coffee fumes shouldn't cause any deterioration of performance...




Next up is cutting to size and putting the adhesive backed paper on to mark up for template holes.

[ergo]

I hadn't checked in for a while and there's been a lot of progress. Very cool but also very big. This is for sure a project for average US home and would not fit well in most Europe homes

[JonMarsh]

Mmm, I don't know about "average" US homes, either... these days, there is such a spread, and a more meaningful statistic might be "median" rather than average, due to distortions at both the top and bottom of the scale (McMansions and micro-homes). Like Average versus Median retirement income, eh?

For me, the defining issue is whether there is enough room to support acoustics and boundary control- things like a Cardas setup. And avoiding early side wall reflections, and the comb filtering effects that result in the midrange and mid bass.

To put perspective on that, in the mid 70's, I rented an older home in Boulder Colorado along with our receptionist and one of her friends- it had an unusual (to me) living room setup, with what amounted to a wall splitting it in two, taking about 1/3 the width on each side, with sliding glass and wood doors in the middle that could be recessed all the way into the walls. If one put the doors completely recessed, and placed the speakers just a bit forward of the side wall, it was a pretty good version of the not yet existing definition of a Cardas setup (he came along about 10 years later), and with a little care and a couple of home made acoustic panels on the walls, well, the imaging made anything we could do in the Boulder Sound Gallery display rooms pale in comparison.

This was with a set of DIY speakers I built with warranty stock of B&W DM6 drivers, and a much different layout and crossovers (sort of a precursor to my LR3 idea), and those were large, but measured much better than the DM6.

Orchestral works were heavenly... the ability to hear into the original acoustic was sublime. OTOH, they really rocked on stuff like Stanley Clark School Days, which was one of our favorites at the store.

So, was this older 3 bedroom home in Boulder Colorado in the mid 70's a typical American home? a Median one, for the times? It certainly wasn't high end, by any stretch. But it was special, with the right setup and gear.

Now, my wife doesn't want big speakers in the living room, so I'm going to see what I can do with turning a large bedroom into a heavily treated AV room. But I'm sure I'll try them out in the main area, too, just to see if I'm missing something... (the real issue for her is the front projection 4K TV setup I have, and how a screen looks on the wall. Fussy-fussy).


Now, note, I don't think you could call this a high end home in any respect, other than high end value? When we closed on the house in April 2022, about 9 months after signing the build contract, I did check back to see what the same amount of money would buy you in Livermore CA, a lower cost area where I lived at one time in the East Bay (lower cost compared with San Ramon or Danville where I lived from 2010 through 2020). The same bucks could get you a 40 year old 1 bedroom condominium with a single car garage. So, which is average, which is median? And which would be foolish?


The floor plan, with the option mods I spec'd, including the deluxe kitchen package with dual cabinet mounted electric ovens, a gas range top, and granite counters:





A pic of the interior living room area of one of the Crestwood "Models" for display...







and this is a pic of the kitchen area in the Crestwood model. We did some painting upgrades ourselves. And I much prefer my Scandinavian furniture.





So, what's average? This, or a 40 year old one bedroom condo in the East Bay of SF area?


The way I envision the Saint-Saen's being setup is with the rear of the cabinet with PR's fairly close to the back wall boundary, for LF loading- the cabinets overall are ~24" deep, so depending on room size, at recommended 2 meter or greater listening distance, I may get away with a smaller room, with the right room treatment. But I would rather have them in the big one. Maybe the Kii inspired should go in the A/V room. ET and I will have to have a discussion...

[JonMarsh]

One other comment that may be worth sharing- it's my observation that the midwest states like Ohio and Indiana are at the heartbeat of DIY speaker construction and clubs and events- my best guess is that it is the moderate standard and cost of living which provides the space and resources to invest time in a shop and to do some fun things in it.

I don't see any similar level of activity for DIY speakers out here. But I do note the the largest Woodcraft store by floor space in the country that moves the largest volume of product is in Boise... so some folks have to be building some kinds of stuff, right?

This is just part of the frontal area of the store- the space was originally a grocery supermarket.

It has multiple large classrooms, too.

[technodanvan]

I have also wondered about the relative popularity of DIY speakers - and perhaps 'large' hobbies in general - in the Midwest. Generally you're getting a lower cost of living and roomier homes at a better price. You also might get sufficient land area for that extra garage or shop for doing all the things as well. My uncle has a small racecar ("The Toy") and a shop to support it in Iowa. Another uncle has (or at least had) an enormous garage shop for all kinds of hobbies plus space to store ATVs and such in Illinois. Yet another uncle has a near fully equipped garage for some serious automotive repairs and upgrades in Iowa.

That said, there are rural areas of New York and California that certainly have the room to support such hobbies, but perhaps other situations there (such as job opportunities, average income, and tax burdens) lead to less disposable income? Perhaps being near wilderness areas - something not as common in the Midwest, given all the farming - lead to more outdoorsy types of hobbies instead? Who knows.

Perhaps it is also no coincidence that I'm from Iowa and still do these things, though my audio experience (and shortly thereafter, my DIY audio experience) did start in late high school near the Mississippi and blossomed when attending college in Ames.

[JonMarsh]

Some very cogent comments on this topic, Danny.

Geography is one factor. CA has an AWFUL lot of mountains, and the flatter areas are either desert or have been in intensive industrial level farming for a long time. Central CA is the least expensive area with regards to land and house prices, BUT... in my neighborhood here in Idaho, that's where a lot of folks are from...

now, look at what Steve Manning has going with his SMJ workshop in Maryland- but as I understand it, pretty dang close to the PA border. And the Zillow Estimate for his place currently is close to $100k higher.

Now, Modesto is one of the least expensive major cities in CA (for good reasons) but for what we paid for out custom built home in Idaho you can get a 40-45 year old home on about half the lot size and 2/3 the interior space for the same money- and there is a big trend in Modesto and similar areas in CA, for what I call corporate flippers, that is the houses are bought (in relatively poor shape) at much lower prices, have a lot of internal work done to bring them up to snuff, then put on the market for 50% more. In some ways, it' mirrors what people are doing on an individual basis when they buy houses in the East Bay where I used to live, in desirable communities like Danville, where Beverly's house sold for 1.3 million (and NOT in poor shape!) and the new owners put about $400K into it with some fairly drastic remodeling (including taking out the solar we'd put in). Now, that house dated to '55, was around the same size lot as mine here, and in fact we did have a large "storage shed" added on, though not anything like Steve's pole barn workshop- but big enough for what I wanted to do and with some loft area storage, to boot.




Brings back memories, I may do something similar someday...


And I would spend more time finishing the interior, but in the East Bay climate, drywall and insulation was not needed very much- at that time.





What is a life well lived without plenty of routers?




And interesting projects to use them on. (Kurosawa)


But, yeah, I'm voting on geography, cost of living, available space, and disposable income.

And then, too, there are just different tastes. I know some folks in Seattle in the Clyde Hills neighborhood with a rebuilt house probably worth about $8,000,000 for whom a set of Alexxa speakers in the kitchen is all they need...

🙄

[Hdale85]

Only 50% more? A few years ago a house in my area could be bought for 100k or less pretty easy, it's one of the cheapest places in the country for cost of living. Now there are 250, 300, 400k dollar houses all over the place. I watched some houses go through the process you're talking about, they sold for 125k and then a few months later after some renovations went back on the market for 360k.

I have friends that live not far from you in the Nampa area (they were anyways) and house prices over there have like doubled or something over the last few years, although it seems like CA has been doing the crazy price game for way longer than most states.

Wife and I are looking for land to purchase and Idaho is high on the list, although not really near Boise it would be somewhere cheaper, and more away from people lol.

[JonMarsh]

More comments about my observations on pricing in Nampa and Treasure Valley- my first rental here, on Aberdeen Ave, a school superintendent lived across the street, we became acquaintances. He had moved up through the ranks from a teaching position, and we had some interesting discussions about the challenges in education these days. His home was a nice two story, about 2200 sq ft, and he'd bought it in 2011 when the person that originally had the contract for the new construction couldn't follow through. He paid the same price then, which was $125K. In 2021, when we were living on Aberdeen, Zillow estimated the current price at $325K. Now it's around $450K. It seems many times the right time to go in and buy an existing home would have been before about 2016. The home we were renting (1400 sq ft) sold early in 2021 for $388K, to a guy from CA. OTOH, the house we live in now, that we put a contract down for in late 2021 for ~$500k, is so, so much nicer, and double the lot size. So I have no complaints at this point. We had help from our Russian realtor, and she dug up an opportunity for a development phase that had been completely sold, then cancelled permitting by the town for about 2 years, so in essence we got 2019 pricing, and very good information support for configuration of the home- such that I had all the details worked out and our official design meeting only took 1/3 of the time allocated.

[JonMarsh]

Speaking of projects, and getting back on topic, (for a moderator I have some bad habits...)

Let's get back to brass tacks, or at least biscuits and beans, minus the beans...




First task was to recheck the parts and alignment, and mark up for biscuit locations, and adjust the biscuit joiner for the #20 biscuits I was planning on using (yeah, can you believe the blasphemy? Porter Cable biscuits with a Makita joiner!!)


When I'm this far along on a project I firmly believe in measuring and checking twice or three times, before committing to cutting or glue, certainly no difference here, lest the best laid schemes of mice and men gang aft agley!

In that regard, gluing one pice at a time, while using the other pieces like alignment jigs makes all the sense in the world to me...

Here, just the base so far...





Gotta chauffeur wife for an ultrasound this afternoon, but may be able to squeeze the back in before that.

[JonMarsh]

It took a while to get back to this, but then curing of System West setup I use can take 6-8 hours at lower temperature, plus the afternoon's tasks interrupting.

But the back is done, and tomorrow will be the woofer wiring, cabinet damping materials, including the pads on the other cabinet wall, and checking the other wall on the cabinet- plus input panels! Plenty to keep me busy! If it's altogether and ready to mount drivers for Friday, I'll be pretty happy...

[technodanvan]

Sooo....where's the other one?