Saint-Saëns planar- AKA SMJ-40- time for a project now?

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 16056

    #541
    Originally posted by Steve Manning
    Jon what about this idea we had talked about a while back, side diffusers

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    Ah, but a key here is the example is a small cabinet... and this technique could have merit, but let's think about how to investigate it?

    I think it would be a good idea to refer folks back to this PuriFi blog article about the SPK16 project, which got my attention partly because of how it refers to using tools I'm familiar with from my old day job, but also one of the few documented cases I've seen of internal pressure zone measurements.





    An internal pressure zone measurement is obtained by having a hole drilled though the enclosure wall of a diameter suitable for a chosen measurement test microphone. This microphone needs to be well optimized for high SPL, and the test done at fairly low external SPL I'd imagine, also. For this small cabinet SPK16 cabinet, it is thought to be valid for acoustical output below about 100Hz, as it should be free of standing waves and similar artifacts that also impact the driver output.


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    While this looks more like a simulation, that is due to the absence of any room reflections or interactions with the measurement.

    This discussion is forcing me to "tip my hand" because I bought another microphone last fall just for the purpose of doing this kind of measurement (though I've also considered using the Pocket CLIO setup, reviewing it reveals SPL processing issues that might be a limitation).

    So, yeah, doing this for both the original big box approach and for these new cabinets is on the project agenda, but for doing the more complete comparison I wanted, I needed to have the POC V3 cabinets built and some testing done.

    So, would something like the internal absorption/diffusion panels Steve drew up work? And for a large cabinet would it just add an acoustical network in series with the PRs? Ultimately, I figure I should be searching for the simplest to implement solution...

    Now, just to toss another tidbit into the discussion, I have some Excel files for designing line arrays which also include some basic calculations for how a stacked series of drivers impacts the overall frequency response, due to off axis interaction at higher frequencies. Of course, that has implications for even low frequency short line arrays, and you can see that to a limited degree in my plots above for just two drivers.

    Lots more stuff to investigate with time, but my immediate focus is for useful results... for this system design build. It's taken a long time just to get to the point.

    But then, consider the Kurosawa- cabinets still in storage, all the drivers on hand, and parts for a preliminary crossover design. I didn't just dive back into it because the parts cost is now so outrageous that it would have limited applicability for HTG members, in all likelihood. And at this point I would update the midrange and tweeter... for performance reasons, from the original Accuton and ScanSpeak parts. Recall that this system incorporates internal baffles separating each low frequency woofer and PR combo, to eliminate vertical standing waves.


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    Some day...







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    • letiennam
      Member
      • Mar 2016
      • 55

      #542
      When Jon bought the boxes available at PE, I also had a similar shape in mind as Kurosawa. Another idea in my head is as shown below, of course it will need to be modified to fit PT5010 and PT2522c .
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      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 16056

        #543
        When I was just starting this new LF POC concept construction, Dhar and I exchanged some PMs, where I discussed how I was going to try this concept, and he shared picture either of this same speaker or one very similar to it. These are from a division of Tidal Audio.
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        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 16056

          #544
          Now, here's another thought that might be worth sharing, I'd call it more a "speculation" as I haven't had time to say, build a test enclosure and verify what happens...

          But, let's consider the PS Audio FRD30, which inspired this project, and the Peerless woofers that are used, reportedly fairly long throw 8" parts.

          Now, I have never found those woofers available through DIY distributors, but there is a 6-1/2" part, the SBS-160F35AL01-4 which I do have a number of, and have tested, and found it to exhibit characteristic similar to some other Peerless long throw woofers of various sizes. And it sho does look like a baby version of the 8" driver in the FRD30. So, I would speculate that the T/S characteristics are a configuration mode that they or their customers like for certain woofer applications.


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          Let's get into the details. The SBS-160F35AL01 is a long throw 6.5" woofer, Xmax of 10.5 mm, almost matching the RSS210HO-4 8" woofer (11mm), and longer than the RSS210HF. But the overall response characteristic is quite different, due to Cms and voice coil inductance.

          Here's the Peerless data curve from one version of the data sheet (I have several, with differences between them)


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          And my IB equivalent measurement on axis:


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          It doesn't look at all like the RSS210HF or HO.

          When you look at either the factory plot or this measurement I made, it's not hard to imagine that an intrinsic enclosure response profile as shown above in the highly damped version of the POC V2 enclosure might be attractive and complementary, with a standing wave boost peaking in the 40-50 Hz area.

          I'd just call that "informed speculation" at this point, but it does make some sense to me. In my Kii inspired design study, I was considering a passive inline filter between preamp and power amp to provide LF lift, possibly active.

          But, no time for that now.

          Been a lot of side chores this week, I hope to get the 2nd POC V3 LF cabinet wired up and loaded today, and checked out.




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          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 16056

            #545
            And just a reminder, posted earlier, the FRD-30 response plot measured by HiFi News, a sister publication to Stereophile, using the same measurement techniques. (I.E., not the amateur hour by any means...)


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            the AudioWorx
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            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 16056

              #546
              Initial LF POC V3 Evaluation Configuration 1 established...

              WARNING! Two healthy persons required, or an experienced retired speaker builder with a remote Sith Lord Force Assist... (Give ET credit when he deserves it...)



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              the AudioWorx
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              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
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              Comment


              • JonMarsh
                JonMarsh commented
                Editing a comment
                Test configuration 2 for Evaluation will be the LF cabinets stacked together, and the MF-HF on top, HF towards the bottom.
            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 16056

              #547
              Well, to make my test interface cabling nice and clean, I ordered some specialty short cables yesterday that will be here tomorrow, so slight pause in getting testing back in gear.

              So, I'll go out on a limb and bit and work on internal parts for the 2nd pair of POC V3 LF cabinets today, once the ordinary chores are out of the way.

              Curious factoid I just realized yesterday evening- this array is EXACTLY the same height as I am... but weighs about 25 lb more!



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              the AudioWorx
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              Comment


              • theSven
                theSven commented
                Editing a comment
                I have to say I like the driver lineup like that. It's a fun pattern; woofers, mid/tweet, woofers. ABA...
            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 16056

              #548
              Well, needless to say, I'll be looking at reducing the depth of this set of midrange enclosures. A final design would probably widen them...

              Now, you know, this project is "proof" that Evolution is a real thing... via vie the changes in cabinet and baffle design and the rear chamber of the woofers sort of dictating changes in the overall configuration. In ways not expected or originally planned...


              the AudioWorx
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              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 16056

                #549
                Today's big burst of activity was driving by the weather forecast (98+, 23 degrees over the ten year average for May 31) and having received my new EGO self propelled lawnmower, and needing to get it assembled with the preferred blade configuration (3 possibilities), having pulled batteries from the packing material and charged them up.


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                Then, it's mow the 5,000 sq ft in the back yard before the temps get out of control...

                Handlebars more like something a motorcyclist would design...

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                After the first outing today....


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                Ya know, what crossed my mind after snapping this shot, was the slight resemblance to some newer US naval designs, in the overall planar profiles, which seemed appropriate because the improvement in so many areas for this mower compared to the older ones is a lot like the difference between pentadecanoic acid (Fatty15, first new essential fatty acid discovered in 90 years) and ordinary Omega 3's- pentadecanoic acid having been discovered through a Naval research program with an MD and Veterinary medicine couple doing research on dolphins physiology and heath over the last 15 years, and licensing the result the essential fatty acid discovered for a supplement company. (Mind you, we're talking about a 36:12 difference in affected physical issues regarding cell health...) (Omega 3's look fairly useless in comparison...)


                Ahhh, Oops! This isn't Lawn and Garden Guide Forum, my bad!!!

                that's the problem with so many "high priority" things going on!

                BUT! I do have some test results and starting listening checks... for the SMJ-40/Saint-Saëns!


                Now, the odd thing about my listening checks, it's mostly from the IT room off to the side connected through a doorway into the great room. right now, some Keb Mo, and Holly Cole. I'd approve the update just based on what I'm hearing different, but I have some data, too. Oddly, the test cabinet(s) sound better in here than in the great room- selectively filtered, less room reflections I suppose (great rooms have kitchens, which are not so cool acoustically...). But, this is like, 80 degrees off axis!




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                Yes, did some crude approximate polar checks- theoretically that base is rated for 250 lb, but that's getting mighty close, and I'm not rated for picking up something weighing 250 lb. 100 is about my limit these days! And with my back surgeries and artificial hips, I shouldn't be doing that!

                But needs must...

                Next, some data.




                the AudioWorx
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                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 16056

                  #550
                  I figured the first interesting thing to do would be to look up close at the response of each cabinet, the floor one and the "floater".

                  This was done with both cabinet connected, and the crossovers in place. I do have impedance plots, no surprises there.

                  The lower cabinet at 1 m, centered between woofers, shows more interaction with the floor of course... long measurement window, only 1/24 octave smoothing. We want to see what's actually happening, not generate pretty graphs.


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                  Upper cabinet checked in analogous position, measured centered between woofers, note lower cabinet is still operating, and may account for the bump around 65Hz:


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                  Now, a comment worth making- I didn't touch the crossovers from the last measurements with the old LF cabinet. And with that cabinet I wasn't getting a good level match with the LF crossover as last built- too much roll off in the upper range of the woofers compared to what it seemed like it "should" do.


                  This one is at 40" off the floor, pretty much nominal seated listening height, note that the MF-HF cabinet has been flipped around vertically, to get the tweeter-midrange design axis at the seated listening height.



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                  Still have some floor interaction and low mid bass peaking, but things sound smoother and more articulate, and measure flatter overall. These are the Seas SL26R PR's, which had a bit too much weight glued on them, but the result in far field measurement and listening seems pretty reasonable, and this way, the woofer loading is consistent down to the upper 20's.

                  Now, pulling back the measurement mic, (it's over a hard floor in the kitchen area at this point) there's more impact from room reflections, but things still look pretty reasonable.



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                  All I can listen to at the moment is 1 channel of a stereo signal, but it's pretty reasonable, for some reason especially so in my IT room off to the right. (as long as the door is open!) Subjectively, compared to the last build version, better midrange clarity and balance, especially low mid, and bass below about 125Hz has more clarity and consistent balance.

                  I guess it's time to build a new MF-HF test enclosure, (as well, I already have two more LF enclosures started) and if it goes to the same width as LF, that will make it feasible to have the crossover on the inner outer wall, with enough space between that and the interior midrange sub-enclosure.

                  Time to get some nicer system speaker cables, too.

                  Hmm, got one big piece of Bamboo ply on hand, but better order another- done!

                  the AudioWorx
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                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 16056

                    #551
                    We had a mid week shindig for a number of wife's Russian friends, but that's done (quite successfully) and it's back to work- gotta say I sure do love Shapr3D, because modifying the POC V2 MF--HF cabinet design to the new desired configuration was ridiculously easy...

                    Almost makes me feel competent at this 3D Cad stuff... (practice makes perfect? Started with very early versions of AutoCAD, on a homemade 80286 AT computer- remember those?)


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                    The model is updated, to the requirements for width, depth, and height, and next will be creating the part dimension drawings.

                    Front Views


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                    Rear Views


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                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
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                    SMJ
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                    In Development...
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                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment


                    • JonMarsh
                      JonMarsh commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Oh, and the additional bamboo ply panel I ordered for the MF-HF V3 builds came in yesterday- good news all around!

                    • JonMarsh
                      JonMarsh commented
                      Editing a comment
                      This is probably a good time to remind folks this is WIP- subject to change- next thing I'm looking at for this assembly is a possible change to the midrange internal enclosure volume, due to doing a review of all of my measured tests of the PT5010. Thinking I may want to shoot closer to 5L effective volume instead of 3.5L.
                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 16056

                    #552
                    Updated- now time to generate some Dimensional drawings.


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                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
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                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
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                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 16056

                      #553
                      Dimensional drawings about complete, and some more maple ply is ordered.

                      One thing I hinted about earlier, regarding connector decisions and how that worked for application flexibility, is the concept that one could have a single cabinet with two RSS210HO drivers, separate wiring connections for each using the 4 pole SpeakOn connector, and note that this has different possible applications.
                      • 2 cabinets per side, 4 ohm drivers, net load of 4 ohm impedance (series+parallel wiring) and nominal 2.83V sensitivity at 100Hz of 91 dB
                      • 1 cabinet per side, 4 ohm drivers, wired in series, like a Wavecor Ardent, net load ~8 ohms, nominal sensitivity at 2.83VRMS ~85 dB
                      • 1 cabinet per side, RSS210HO-8 drivers, wired in parallel, net load ~4 ohms, nominal sensitivity for 2.83VRMS at 100Hz of 88 dB.
                      So, for a lighter weight, lower cost, easier to setup/move around implementation of the Saint-Saëns, but with 3 dB lower sensitivity, just one LF Cabinet might be used, same crossover but adjusting the LPAD for mid and tweeter.

                      Considering the two driver 8 ohm in parallel in a fully stuffed cabinet, there are options to consider also, for example, to reduce floor bounce issues, have a riser assembly under the woofer cabinet and turn the MF-HF cabinet back to the tweeter on the bottom orientation; the riser should be tall enough to get the tweeter up to the 36-38" level.



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                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment


                      • technodanvan
                        technodanvan commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I think I'm locked in to option #1 given the baffles we preemptively made!
                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 16056

                      #554
                      This project has turned into quite the effort- not even counting all the acoustic test enclosures for testing rear loading characteristics of the GRS midrange and tweeters, and LF test cabinets!

                      Think of all the parts I've "preemptively made" developing this- two different pairs of MF-HF modules, a 3rd to be started shortly, and a finished unitary LF cabinet plus all the parts cut out, threaded inserts installed, and ready for assembly for the 2nd- which at this point I won't use.

                      Some days I wonder if I would have started this if a had a clear notion of the work involved- maybe I would just have dug all the Kurosawa cabinet and parts out of storage and focused on that. But with the escalation in pricing and reduction in availability of Accuton drivers, that wouldn't have been of use to anyone else at HTG...

                      Heck, I have a pair of Accuton C168-890 woofers, and they about doubled in price since I bought them around 2021. The Accuton AS190-9-251 I bought for the Kurosawa have tripled in price ($1481.00 Each!), and that's for stock already in the country, not subject to tariffs.

                      ​​​​​​Difficult times...
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                      Comment


                      • theSven
                        theSven commented
                        Editing a comment
                        It's unfortunate that the price has gone up that high in the last few years.

                      • JonMarsh
                        JonMarsh commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Well, this is a special and unusual case I'd say, for Accuton in Germany. Hard to say what the exact reason is- protecting their OEM customers? Higher material and labor costs? Declining sales to support the manufacturing investment?

                        Accuton has been revamping their web site, and for a while, it looked like they were doing a shift to high end auotmotive and Marine, but maybe that's just the first stuff they put up. Now, the Home audio stuff is well fleshed out again.

                        I shudder to think what the LF part of this project would cost with AS190 drivers...

                        Thiel & Partner GmbH manufactures and distributes high quality tweeter, midrange, bass-midrange and bass loudspeaker drivers under the accuton® brand name.
                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 16056

                      #555
                      Been reviewing PT5010 test enclosures and results, planning to do one more test with one of the older enclosures, and have gotten a 2nd version of the center MF-HF cabinet revision worked out, let’s call that POC V4 now, with tentative changes to the sub enclosure configuration, and a reduction in the overall height of the enclosure, and modifying the tweeter forward panel to extend the top and have a bevel termination plus make it something to help align the upper bass module. Every part in it has been changed, and the MF sub enclosure now uses the main cabinet for the bottom base, like one of my earlier test cabinets.

                      I'll be testing a modified version of one of my basic test enclosures first, before building this, but the materials for this have arrived.


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                      Not explicitly shown here, but I do plan to make the tweeter panel interchangeable to support finalizing the crossovers for the tweeter types that have been under consideration.



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                      Comment


                      • theSven
                        theSven commented
                        Editing a comment
                        When you get a few minutes to spare, could you also share some posts of how the POC V4 would look with the LF cabinet or cabinets. Trying to visualize it all in my head.

                      • JonMarsh
                        JonMarsh commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Here’s the funny thing Sven- I built the pair of test woofer cabinets in an ad hoc fashion, using stuff on hand, and I have been so busy with household related issues, like my wife’s self inflicted phone failure and some other events this week, I still havne’t gottten to doing the LF cabinet concept CAD drawings. But it’s in the task queue

                      • JonMarsh
                        JonMarsh commented
                        Editing a comment
                        One more comment worth making- this is being updated to have removable/interchangeable tweeter mount panels, obviously for the Beyma TPL75 and the GRS PT2522 MOD4-A, but who knows? Maybe I'll try another relative unobtainium tweeter, the DA25TX!
                    • Johnloudb
                      Super Senior Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 1913

                      #556
                      Hi Jon, you likely answered this somewhere in this thread, but why did you choose the put the planar tweeter a bit out in front of midrange?
                      John unk:

                      "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

                      My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 16056

                        #557
                        Well, see, the way I would put it, is, I didn't choose to put the tweeter in front of the midrange, I HAD to put it that way because of the intrinsic phase characteristics at the desired crossover point. And Chris Brunhaver had to do the same thing.

                        First, a cutaway of the FR30 top module, from HiFi News in England. (well, obviously it came from PS Audio originally, but I haven't seen it anywhere except on HiFi News).

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	FR30_Render-2-2048x1638 HF.png Views:	4 Size:	109.1 KB ID:	958538



                        Yes, the tweeter is mounted just slightly recessed and essentially flush with the outside of the front panel. OTOH, the midrange mounting surface is somewhere around 3/4" to 1" behind it. This is reflected in the outer front panel over the drivers, which is dished inwards to mount on the driver.


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	FR30_HF Baffle Drivers-2048x1638 crop.png Views:	4 Size:	168.9 KB ID:	958539


                        Now, PS Audio has never (to my knowledge) identified the manufacturer of the MF and HF drivers, but GRS DID buy out all the IP and manufacturing from B&G, and the existing HF unit here is clearly descended from the B&G NEO3PDR.

                        A VERY important point to keep in mind is how sensitive these parts are to rear loading and damping... I experimented with a lot of different rear enclosure volumes and damping materials. In fact, for the GRS PT2544, I ended up coming up with a custom rear enclosure replacing the 2522c plate, to get the smoothest response and best damping of some HF resonances. But the mid is just as critical. Changes in the rear loading mean changes in the crossover.

                        Let's look at two example areas, 3.5L and 7L. Obviously, a smaller rear enclosure raises the acoustic mass and changes the Q at LF resonance and moves it up and down. This can be investigated even just with impedance measurements- though these parts are pretty flat, compared to cone and dome drivers, they give things away still.

                        So, here's a polar set out to 50 degrees, denim damping, measured at 1meter, so there are issues with room reflections. This is a volume which in my opinion is a bit too small, though it moves the diaphragm resonance up high enough to have more output in the 400Hz to 1,000 Hz area, it is subtly peaking in the 600Hz area and dropping off a bit before climbing again over 1,000Hz.


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	5010 3.5L Polar.png Views:	4 Size:	268.7 KB ID:	958540


                        Now, here's a polar set from 0 to 40 degrees, done at about 0.5 meter, in a 7L enclosure. Acoustastuff damping.

                        I like this one better, because it more nearly approximates a straight line response with a frequency dependent tilt. Easier to work with, IMO. YMMV.


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	PT5010 7L Polar 0-40.png Views:	4 Size:	409.2 KB ID:	958541
                        Regardless of my likes or dislikes, the rising response above the desired crossover region (around 2500Hz) results that with nominal LR4 networks, to get the optimum phase alignment in the crossover region, the tweeter needs to be forward- due to some sort of leading phase characteristic of the midrange panel.

                        So, with the new POC3 LFs, and the old POC V2 MF-HF module, this was measured at 1m on axis. With the tweeter 1" forward of the midrange. Note, no room position optimization, no room treatments, and hear a hard floor.


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	POC V4 5-31 on axis.png Views:	4 Size:	116.5 KB ID:	958542
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                        Comment


                        • JonMarsh
                          JonMarsh commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Note, in the "Slow work takes time" tradition, I am doing one or two more mid enclosure tests, seeing if further optimization of internal dimension ratios and volume may be possible. This will be based on what is drawn above, to confirm that the ratios and damping configuration will work as expected BEFORE building it into a full size cabinet. Sort of like measure many times, cut once, but here, it's meager prototype configurations many times, build prototype just once more...

                        • JonMarsh
                          JonMarsh commented
                          Editing a comment
                          This additional data collection will include the newest updates for PT2522 configuration, to collect baseline data and re-verify what has been measured previously- now that I have multiple samples build up in that configuration.
                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 16056

                        #558
                        OK, folks, it's Visualization Monday!

                        Sorry this took so long, but a lot of domestic issues on the agenda late this week, eating into working time.


                        This is a combination of what I've actually built for new Test LF enclosures and have tested one pair; a second set is under construction, and my current plan for the midrange enclosure, which is shorter and more compact, in an effort to lower the overall height of the combined array.


                        Front View CAD Hidden Edges Shown, all internal structures:


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                        Front View Visualization (note, wood colors are darker than real life.)

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                        Rear View CAD Hidden Edges Shown, all internal structures:

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                        Rear View Visualization:


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                        Gray material is MDF or HDF.
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                        Comment


                        • JonMarsh
                          JonMarsh commented
                          Editing a comment
                          The large deep rebate for the passive radiators is so that they can be installed, and the cabinet laid on it's back for working on the front.
                          The Midrange enclosure can be shortened front to back to match the woofers. Not sure how this happened in CAD land. These were all prepared in separate drawings and brought together as STEP files just for the composite view.

                        • technodanvan
                          technodanvan commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I like the deep cutout for the PRs, great idea.

                        • theSven
                          theSven commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I agree with Danny on the cutouts and thanks for making it a visual Monday.
                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 16056

                        #559
                        and for those who might be desiring more clarity about the LF cabinet's inner construction, these screen captures may help...


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                        the outer sides and double stacked PR rebates are 18mm BB ply; the rest is MDF.




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                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 16056

                          #560
                          Update fixing depth of MF-HF cabinet and modifying rear wall


                          Click image for larger version

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                          Click image for larger version  Name:	MF-HF V4B2 Hidden.jpg Views:	0 Size:	497.2 KB ID:	958563


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                          Comment

                          • technodanvan
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 1488

                            #561
                            That's pretty imposing Jon. Do you foresee the final build as making this with one continuous baffle, or do you think the modular approach (i.e. three cabs) is generally superior?

                            Does the tweeter height take into account a couple inches for some sort of feet? I imagine with something this tall you'll want a fairly wide set!
                            - Danny

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 16056

                              #562
                              Hey Danny! What I think at this point is that the modular approach is more practical and feasible to build, setup, and move around!

                              Something to keep in mind, the CAD I showed above is "as built" for the woofer+PR test cabinets, which are essentially dual cubes fused together, with separate wiring for each driver taken to the 4 pole SpeakOn connector. These puppies are right at 100 lb. each with drivers loaded. With my bilateral bionic hip joints, and a back that has had some serious surgery, I'm fairly spritely for a 73 year old to hustle these puppies around, but I do try to work smart at it, not just hard.


                              Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0526.jpg Views:	2 Size:	2.07 MB ID:	958569

                              Note the Costco Kitchen card with the bamboo top- a very convenient height, and rated for over 300 lb. total load. I also have some nice multiple angle conventional moving carts that come in handy.


                              Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_0517.jpg Views:	2 Size:	1.81 MB ID:	958570


                              For anyone constructing this, DIYW (Do It Your Way) is of course the operative concept. And others attempting something like this may choose different kinds of materials and construction. This is not all that exotic, after all, mainly MDF and Baltic Birch Plywood for the LF cabinets.

                              I don't see making this with one continuous baffle because as I've discovered multiple times with testing, the forward tweeter offset is necessary. Just look at the FR30 and FR20, and you can see they do this also.

                              What I do anticipate doing is having an interchangeable tweeter panel on my mid cabinet build and being able to test out and document multiple tweeters at different budget levels. It will probably use furniture grade flat head bolts with hex sockets- I've got a number of nice looking ones around, and you can get them easily at most hardware stores. The hardware stuff I recommend and use is the M4 threaded inserts and bolts- though you can get the bolts at Ace Hardware or Lowe's, too. This seems to me to be the ideal weight and strength for both the woofers and PRs. I'm experimenting with some lower cost M4 threaded inserts on a secondary Mid test enclosure, re-testing some stuff and confirming optimum rear enclosure volume.



                              There are folks like Tidal Audio and Magico that do speaker systems that are single cabinet with a total weight 250 lb or more, but for me that's not very practical, as I don't have a team of installers, like a high end dealer. It was enough of a challenge building this 2nd gazebo for my wife after the first one literally blew away in a storm. the total shipping weight for the 3 cartons was 450 lb, and the cartons weren't all that heavy... it took some clever construction engineering to do this on my own, as normally it's a 3-4 person project.

                              Under construction:



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                              Completed:


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                              I think I have most of the materials on hand for the MF-HF update cabinets, and will be starting those soon- there's just been a lot of other stuff going on that's taken away available work hours...
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                              Comment


                              • JonMarsh
                                JonMarsh commented
                                Editing a comment
                                And yeah, I've been thinking about approaches for footers on the lower woofer cabinet, but realize that the total weight approaching 275 lb means some careful consideration is in order- if just four footers, that's 75 lb per each. Six might be more practical. My thought is to use the top cabinet as a test on the floor, to optimize positioning for LF flatness at the listening position, and then move in the actual lower cabinet to that position, placing at first on the back, and then tilting forward into position.

                                Of course, if you and Steve could fly or drive out, and lend a hand, then a more conventional approach might work out!

                              • chrisn
                                chrisn commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Nice Gazebo! How do you store so many ladders of that size? Upgrading my hand me down wooden step ladder with a new aluminum one resulted in a very high level of satisfaction. I'd like more, but am tight on space for them.
                            • technodanvan
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1488

                              #563
                              I do wonder if I could lift 100 lbs that high without breaking something - might be better to load the drivers after the fact if you're sure you don't have to move them afterwards! Depending on final height I think I'd 'try' to make a single baffle, with the same sort of replaceable 'bulge' Steve and I used for my original set.
                              - Danny

                              Comment

                              • Steve Manning
                                Moderator
                                • Dec 2006
                                • 2125

                                #564
                                After many years of lifting weights as well as working on farms and our family firewood business, lifting 100 lbs, especially above waist level can get you into serious trouble! Sven's subs just past that mark and will get heavier yet once the bottoms go on and that doesn't include the 45 lbs driver!

                                I'm moving them around with my lift table which is worth it's weight in gold.

                                Building a stack like Jon's latest, get another body to help or something that will lift that high is my recommendation.
                                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 16056

                                  #565
                                  I'm basically in agreement with you guys, but you know, with ET around to help out with a Force Lift or some icy encouragement, there are ways to get things done... and then of course, there is that annoying Yoda fella...

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                                  My "trick" with Yoda's help is to do final assembly on my favorite Costco folding table, then if the cabinet is destined to be on the top, I use a Force Lift to transfer it to a Costco Trinity Bamboo top kitchen cart... it's more of a "hug" maneuver than "lift"...


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                                  Then to the cabinet array...


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                                  Of course, this will be easier with the shorter MF-HF cabinet that is full width to the woofer cabinets.

                                  Of course, all the usual comments about age and cunning versus youth and vigor probably apply...



                                  Click image for larger version

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                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 16056

                                    #566
                                    No stunning pics today, but did get a number of the MF-HF main panels cut (1" bamboo ply), the midrange sub enclosure parts (3/4" bamboo) and glued the sub enclosure parts together.

                                    Note the sophisticated acoustic based natural gravity clamping system for the sub enclosure back panel...

                                    😏



                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 16056

                                      #567
                                      Well, it's certainly feeling like a Monday... plenty of distractions, but some progress, and a visit to Woodcraft for an essential router bit. Which I should have lurking around here, but WIP storage hasn't quite been organized enough, a frequent problem when you have 15 lb of work to fit in a 10 lb space!

                                      But some careful updates for the MF-HF enclosure, accompanied by a lot of cross checking of details, disassembly of older cabinets, etc.


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                                      ​​​
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                                      And while out running errands for things like cat nail clippers, (for the wife's new cat), also a side trip to Woodcraft for an essential router bit...


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                                      Pricing on the 3/4" round over Freud bit I picked seemed to reflect the new 20% tariff rate for stuff from the EU...


                                      Last edited by JonMarsh; 23 June 2025, 20:17 Monday.
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                                      Comment


                                      • Scareurpasenger
                                        Scareurpasenger commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Would that bring it closer to Whiteside pricing? I have been happy with my whiteside bits and they should be tariff free,

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        JonMarsh commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Well, how on Amazon within a buck of what I paid for the Freud bit? Literally...
                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 16056

                                      #568
                                      Some more progress… installed the new router bit in the Bosch router table, have done the edging work, also sanded and cleaned up the interior rear enclosures for the midrange, and ready to start cut-outs after lunch- and that was getting a relatively late start, other tasks on the agenda first this AM. Oh, and I cheated,, also did some edge routing on the next pair of LF cube sub enclosures for the second pair of V3 LF cabinets.

                                      More to come today…
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                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 16056

                                        #569
                                        Pass through holes routed on main MF-HF front panel, and fit check for through hole- the tweeter panel is not routed yet, except for edge work on sides and top.


                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	V4B2 Fit check.jpg
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Size:	466.3 KB
ID:	958630

                                        Note, the bottom & top and sides are cut, so glue up may start tomorrow after car maintenance is taken care of.

                                        Threaded inserts holes and inserts for tweeter panel will need to be installed also.

                                        the AudioWorx
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                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 16056

                                          #570
                                          Morning was all about automotive maintenance and electronics recycling, but this afternoon made a bit of progress...

                                          Mainly I was intent on doing a dry fit assembly check of the base front panel, floor panel, and PT5010 sub enclosure. It's one thing to have all these nice CAD drawings that go together so perfectly on the silver screen, but being sure one fabricates them correctly for real life work can be another challenge, depending on what kind of CNC you have.

                                          Steve, of course, has the preferred type- modern Computer Numerical Control.

                                          Alas, I have a more old fashioned variety- Curmudgeonly Nattering Constructor.



                                          ​​​​​So, ahem, one should not take things for granted!

                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Building Skills 1st time.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.6 KB ID:	958639


                                          First, a dry fit, angle check, and markup to facilitate the glue up:

                                          The short panel on the lower left is a left over scrap to simulate the side wall thickness

                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	DryCheck1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	710.7 KB ID:	958634

                                          Not looking to bad... let's zoom in on the angle fit check:


                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	DryCheck2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	859.7 KB ID:	958635

                                          Yeah, I think we're ready to mix up the Bob Smith Epoxy now....


                                          Here's a front view, double clamp on the bottom, one pair to the back of the floor panel, the other to a temporary cross bar to clamp the PT5010 sub enclosure to the front panel.

                                          Note, those are Rampa inserts; I did find some M4 parts on Amazon that are pretty good, and would be fine for cabinet grade MDF, but the metal alloy just isn't as strong- not recommended for hardwood. The PT-5010 mounting panels are drilled out just slightly. Realistically, most folks would do just fine with the supplied wood screws, a lot less work, but if one may be playing with stuffing and/or mounting and remounting drivers, then I feel more comfortable with threaded inserts.


                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Front Clamped.jpg Views:	0 Size:	614.3 KB ID:	958636


                                          And a view from the rear, showing the clamping I used at this point (yeah, call me out, I skipped the biscuit jointer today!)


                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Rear angle clamped.jpg Views:	0 Size:	729.9 KB ID:	958637


                                          And just to give you a bit of a closeup on the angle fitment check...


                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	SideClampedAngleCheck.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.09 MB ID:	958638


                                          Looking good, and getting hot at this point in the garage workshop, so hung it up for the afternoon.


                                          the AudioWorx
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                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 16056

                                            #571
                                            Proof of Progress


                                            The first MF-HF V4B2 cabinet base unclamped... ready for work on SE enclosure

                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	First MF-HF V4B2 initial glue-up.jpg
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                                            Second assembly with epoxy and clamps:


                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            We'll see how much more detail work I can get to today...








                                            the AudioWorx
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                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 16056

                                              #572
                                              Slow Work Takes Time...

                                              A lot of small detail tasks today, no stunning pictures, but it's all progress, right?


                                              Been working on the removable tweeter mount panels.... messed up one, will have to redo it. This one should wind up usable when finished...


                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Tweeter Top panel.jpg
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ID:	958669

                                              Detail stuff on the midrange sub enclosures, including binding posts and 2nd Skin damper skins installed.


                                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Mid TE 2ndSkin.jpg
Views:	277
Size:	1.71 MB
ID:	958670



                                              Getting ready to install M6 inserts in the main front panel and glue sides and top up on one of the front panel assemblies...



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                                              Comment


                                              • JonMarsh
                                                JonMarsh commented
                                                Editing a comment
                                                One comment- working with bamboo ply can be a real PITA compared to the maple ply I’ve been spoiling myself with- especially routing it. I’m going so far as to consider tweaking the crossover design slightly so I can fabricate a Maple tweeter panel. That’s just an exploratory concept for now…
                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 16056

                                              #573
                                              One thing leads to another...


                                              So, I'm thinking, maybe it would be nice to have a maple and BB ply tweeter mount panel...

                                              Then, I have to review where to get the maple, and what sizes available... constraints, especially if amount of material and expense of an alternative prototype is considered... that means narrowing the tweeter mount panel a bit. OK, NBD, just a bit of time on Shapr3D this morning.


                                              But now I have a plan, and will be going to Woodcraft when they open....



                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Tweeter B3 Panel.jpg Views:	0 Size:	602.0 KB ID:	958673


                                              What I really wish I could get is 1" maple ply, but my normal source for maple ply doesn't offer that.





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                                              Comment


                                              • Scareurpasenger
                                                Scareurpasenger commented
                                                Editing a comment
                                                What about 1” Baltic birch plywood with maple veneer?
                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 16056

                                              #574
                                              A cogent suggestion, but, well, that wouldn't work for this the same way...
                                              • The front of this panel will have a rebate for the furniture style M6 bolts used to mount it to threaded inserts in the main panel. I think having a 3/8" solid panel with a 1/8" deep rebate will be a nicer look- with veneer, the ply would be immediately evident.
                                              • 1" BB ply is difficult to source around here, and when Russia invaded Ukraine, I bought 10 sheets of 60" x 30" 18mm BB ply, as a hedge for both availability and pricing. No regrets, and I'm still fairly well stocked, but using it when ever appropriate. As in the new LF cabinets, and selected parts of this MF-HF cabinet build.
                                              With the temperatures being what they are (near or above 100) this week, getting started early and knocking off relatively early is the order of the day.

                                              This includes other fabrication tasks and outdoor work like yard work, and hitting the local hardware store for, what else, some hardware!

                                              The new tweeter panel blanks are coming along nicely, those M6 furniture bolt rebates having been created with a Forstner bit, and have started the side glue process after getting out the Makita biscuit jointer and getting batteries charged...


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	First Side panel with biscuits.jpg Views:	0 Size:	552.9 KB ID:	958679



                                              But now it's cool off and shower time...






                                              the AudioWorx
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                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 16056

                                                #575
                                                With these temperatures, I'm getting up an hour earlier in order to have reasonable temperatures for getting things done- like mowing the front lawn, or working in the garage on project stuff! Or going to the shipping store to get materials to pack up drivers for JimS!


                                                But some progress was made...


                                                assembling the 2nd side and the top panel...


                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                And updating the CAD drawing for HF-FP V3, and marking up the panels in preparation to route out tomorrow:



                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	FP3 Markup.jpg
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                                                I also received the 3/8" Forstner bit for drilling the insertion holes for the M6 threaded inserts in the main front panel for mounting the tweeter panels, and some additional shorter 14mm long M4 screws from Ace Hardware (got lucky on finding enough of the right style- they often just have a half dozen, which is hardly useful in many cases).

                                                Of course, there will be a lot of sanding and clean up work, but for now, just planning wipe on poly so that functional tests can start soon...

                                                the AudioWorx
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                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 16056

                                                  #576
                                                  And just to clarify, the markup on the tweeter panels is mainly a positioning guide for placement of the routing templates I've previously fabricated from high density phenolic sheet for routing the through hole and the rebate platform. Not used to directly guide manual routing.

                                                  The additional edge shaping will be done after the tweeter platform routing is finished.
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                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 16056

                                                    #577
                                                    Today I got back to the workshop some this morning, and focused on the new tweeter mounting panels.

                                                    Using a Forstner bit to keep things clean, cut pilot holes for the tweeter inner through holes...

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Inner Cutout Holes Drilled.jpg Views:	0 Size:	733.5 KB ID:	958693


                                                    Then, the 9/32" pilot holes for the M6 furniture bolts-


                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	9-32 pilot holes.jpg Views:	0 Size:	712.4 KB ID:	958694



                                                    Then, checked the clearance and fitment of the M6 furniture bolts:


                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	M6 FurnBoltCheck.jpg Views:	0 Size:	574.5 KB ID:	958695


                                                    Then, using a saber saw, cut out the rough through holes, then finish routed with a template follower bit and a Colt baby Bosch router...

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	TemplateClamping.jpg Views:	0 Size:	763.4 KB ID:	958697



                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Routed TPL75ThruHole.jpg Views:	0 Size:	637.9 KB ID:	958696



                                                    And, not a bad idea to check the fit before moving on to routing the rebate...

                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	TPL75 CheckFit.jpg Views:	0 Size:	622.5 KB ID:	958698

                                                    Now what remains for these parts is the rebate routing and the edge shaping... tomorrow morning!

                                                    Careful processes, don't want yield loss at this point!



                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Building Skills 1st time 2.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	48.6 KB
ID:	958699
                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                    Natalie P
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                                                    Modula Neo DCC
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                                                    In Development...
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                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 16056

                                                      #578
                                                      I'm probably boring folks to death with this step by step business, but it may be worthwhile for some to see what's involved, with a minimal tool set, no CNC.

                                                      Next step is routing the shallow rebate shelf that the TPL75 mounts in... this requires a short template follower bit for my Bosch Colt router.

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Shallow template bit-1.jpg
Views:	154
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ID:	958750


                                                      My old phenolic template will be used for the outer route edge guide

                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Panel Rebate time-2.jpg
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                                                      Things look as expected after the first check pass is completed- just think how much nicer this would look with Steve's CNC setup!


                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      Looking decent... like the TPL75 is gonna fit!



                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      And whaddaya know...


                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      Next will be the corner round overs and the edge round overs- have some Bosch stuff coming for the router table today...







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                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Steve Manning
                                                        Moderator
                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                        • 2125

                                                        #579
                                                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                        I'm probably boring folks to death with this step by step business, but it may be worthwhile for some to see what's involved, with a minimal tool set, no CNC.
                                                        Just admit it, you like showing off you router collection. 😁

                                                        Looking good though. 👍
                                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 16056

                                                          #580
                                                          Nah, if I was into showing off my router collection, I'd have to show this with every project post...


                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Routers CA 2016.jpg
Views:	250
Size:	804.4 KB
ID:	958759
                                                          This is just circa 2016, and I can think of three routers used in this project not shown here...


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                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 16056

                                                            #581
                                                            As busy as I was this AM, doesn't quite feel like I have that much to show for it!

                                                            Cleaning edges on glued up cube modules...

                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            Which of course leads to gluing up stack modules for the LF cabinet core...


                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            And progress with the router table on the prototype tweeter mount panels...


                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            Some wood fill and more sanding to do...


                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	MountingPlateRound-over-Bevel.jpg
Views:	234
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                                                            Plus threaded inserts, of course!




                                                            the AudioWorx
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                                                            In Development...
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                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment


                                                            • Gerald Jansen
                                                              Gerald Jansen commented
                                                              Editing a comment
                                                              I appreciate how you communicate your progress.

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              JonMarsh commented
                                                              Editing a comment
                                                              Thanks, Gerald, I hope presenting more of the details serves a variety of goals
                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 16056

                                                            #582
                                                            Lots of general tasks this week, but also getting some progress- fabricated end caps from cabinet grade MDF, and epoxying on the new set of LF module build-ups. Also working on Ardent D documentation for JimS. He's in Europe this week, gives me a tiny breather of sorts!



                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	EndCaps2nd Set.jpg
Views:	140
Size:	391.2 KB
ID:	958772
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
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                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 16056

                                                              #583
                                                              Occasionally I get asked about which glues or epoxy I use. This is not an area I'd think of myself as any kind of expert, but I do have my preferences born out of experience...

                                                              So, for me it sort of breaks down into three application areas, and four products.
                                                              • Edge gluing of cabinets- narrow areas generally of the thickness of cabinet pieces, where higher viscosity but moderately slow setting (30 minutes) makes applying and assembly easier for me...
                                                              • Sheet surface gluing, like laminating up MDF or Ply panels, such as what I'm doing above, and further on for the new LF cabinets, for example, gluing up 18mm BB ply for the rear panel rebate construction to protect the passive radiators mounted on the panel and of course, to strengthen the cabinet. Slow cure is fine and preferred if one mix is to be used for a number of pieces assembled at the same time. Lower viscosity is fine, and aids mixing and application.
                                                              • Fixtures- often made of varying thicknesses of phenolic sheet. This is where JB-Weld products come in.


                                                              I've used Devon slow cure epoxy quite a bit in the past, but the slow cure seems hard to find these days. For sometime now I've found Bob Smith Industries 30 minute epoxy to be the ideal choice for me:

                                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	BobSmithIndustries.jpg Views:	0 Size:	103.1 KB ID:	958775



                                                              My longtime favorite for sheet like applications is the System West 105 resin with either the 205 or 206 slow cure hardener...


                                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	SystemWest.jpg Views:	0 Size:	584.2 KB ID:	958776


                                                              For my more "industrial" sort of applications, I use two variants of J-B Weld- supposedly basically the same, but not having the same viscosity.



                                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	JB-Weld.jpg Views:	0 Size:	894.7 KB ID:	958777

                                                              The big tubes of original J-B Weld mix up to a relatively high viscosity epoxy. The only drawback is the size of tubes and price.

                                                              The "baby" J-B Weld original have a single push plunder and automatic resin/hardner balancing, are lower viscosity, and is my favorites for specialty stuff like phenolic router fixture templates, and custom permanently attached sub enclosures for the PT2522 film tweeters.


                                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	PT2522c MOD302+.jpg Views:	0 Size:	373.8 KB ID:	958778

                                                              As always, YMMV, and of course, DIYW.


                                                              Last edited by JonMarsh; 10 July 2025, 14:39 Thursday.
                                                              the AudioWorx
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                                                              In Development...
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                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
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                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 16056

                                                                #584
                                                                you folks probably have no idea how unhappy I am that so much weird stuff popped up this summer that I had to take care of. A lot of healthcare stuff for others. But interestingly, that has also resulted in some unexpected improvements for myself after doing toxicity evaluations of a major program for my wife's older daughter, and after a lengthy hardly there discussion with my doctor, and pushing them to change one of my prescriptions, as well as changing my own daily protocols, there have been significant benefits. Unexpected stuff, too, I believe due to further improvement in soft tissue healing all over the body.

                                                                My singing voice has been pretty funky the last 3-4 years, but now it's mostly come back. By that, I mean some of the more difficult/esoteric stuff, like singing along with my favorite acid Bluegrass band in the FJ, Nickel Creek.

                                                                Cut's like these:



                                                                This was not expected, but for a former gigging rock and roll musician (ten years age 14-24) it was rather emotionally rewarding, as one might imagine. Also energy levels are up and other classic data in a good place.


                                                                Every time I go through the workshop part of the garage I'm reminded by both the completed subassemblies and the stuff in progress, which none has been made since June.
                                                                That should be changing soon, barring any more unexpected surprises from life.

                                                                All I've had a little bit of time to do is working on organizing all the bits and pieces and working areas for when I start back up-

                                                                One other thing I've been giving more thought to, is a trimmed down version of the LF portion, just one cabinet, taking advantage of connectors I chose, to use two 8 ohm drivers wired for 4 ohms; some crossover level adjustment would be necessary, but for those interested in a smaller build, it could be a workable possibility. No change expected to the LF crossover, as it's 4 ohms with either configuration. Might put the LF cabinet on a stand, and invert the midrange cabinet, to optimize for listening height.

                                                                Well, at least you can say I have the concept of a plan at this point... action should follow very soon.
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                Isiris
                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                SMJ
                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                Calliope
                                                                Ardent D

                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 16056

                                                                  #585
                                                                  Here it is Friday, November 21, and I'm anticipating finally being able to get back to this starting in Thanksgiving week!

                                                                  My wife is flying to Seattle on Monday to spend a week with her older daughter's family, at their request. This got me off the hook, apart from collecting all the information about the trip they arranged but wanted me to pay for- it was a "surprise" dump back in mid October, then there were some issues that came up between wife and daughter they would not explain to me, and I only got the actual trip info two days ago. But I've got everything mapped out and can get her checked in online in the 24 hours before departure, then hustle her to the airport. Life seems to be unnecessarily complicated some days...

                                                                  But NOW, I'm really glad I take all these pictures and even post them with nice comments, because it gives me a wa to get back up to speed after being distracted with a lot of other urgent stuff throughout the summer and fall! Sheesh!

                                                                  Unfortunately the working temperature in the garage is now far from ideal, but I have a radiant heater from Costco that may help with that, and as needed, I'll bring some stuff indoors for gluing.

                                                                  For everyone else planning to have a more "normal" Thanksgiving week, (I'm looking at you, Steven... and hopefully a lot others, but I do know Steven's plans) give it your best shot and I hope it all goes well!

                                                                  ET's wanting to sub con some measurement work for him too, so there will be no shortage of stuff to get up to...
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

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