The universe does not need another 6-1/2" two way....

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  • Evil Twin
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1532

    The universe does not need another 6-1/2" two way....

    So, why not explore that idea using the power of the Dark Side anyway?

    This has been a private design study under consideration for over a year, but now some specific elements are coming together to support more concrete development to relatively challenging goals...


    This has also been conceived in several possible configuration, now narrowed down to two main concepts. The common denominator is the mid woofer driver vendor, PuriFi, but beyond that there are several possibilities which have been under consideration depending on performance and cost targets.

    Options which have been pondered....


    NATW?

    Low Frequency configuration

    Substantial extension in frequency range and output level may usually be obtained through some type of reflex system. For lowest cost, this would normally be ported, but the characteristics of the PuriFi drivers are such that quite compact enclosures are feasible, which tend to render the use of a port sub optimum, unless a port loaded into a planar surfaces, as done in the Wharfdale REVA is employed.

    It is well known that the design issues for passive radiators are more complex and the choices for an appropriate implementation may be relatively narrow... however, with a carefully formulated approach and the optimum component selection and tuning, favorable results may be achieved. The passive radiator also has the benefit of avoiding a midrange resonance from a long tube.

    A proposed LF design synthesis will be presented which will be under construction in a cabinet whose basic concept is described. Two options are possible, one of slightly higher performance but nearly double the PR cost.



    High Frequency driver configuration

    For this project, it is obviously necessary that the final performance be well in excess of normal mundane standards- otherwise, why bother?

    Only one dome tweeter has been given serious consideration, given its superlative track record for price/performance value and very uniform response and low distortion, but it is typically nearly impossible to source at this time. However, we have a limited stock on hand, and a test order has been placed with a distributor in a remote star sector which appears to be accepted and processed, so at least a certain number could be built using the Peerless DA25TX008.

    However, as the rebel scum are sometimes fond of saying, "There is another...." solution.

    Some initial results have been shared elsewhere regarding the TPL75 AMT tweeter, and will be posted here also; in addition, the results of a complete design proposal will be shared, though without vetting by measurements, the crossover details will not be revealed until fully proven.




    Initial Details for value oriented design...


    One of the PuriFi drivers on hand is the original PTT6.5W04-01A. These were sourced on a special order through Claus Neesgard before production release. This driver is more challenging to develop for due to the upper frequency cone behavior, and the midrange response usually noted in measurement on practical baffle sizes. However, with the correct intuition and principles, as well as a small Force Push from the Dark side, surprisingly acceptable results are possible, as shall be seen.



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    The raw response of the PTT6.5W04-01A on a 29 cm wide baffle:


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    This was a sealed enclosure, no LF output optimization. One viewpoint on the results is that the interaction of baffle step response and raw driver behavior creates an asymmetric hump in the midrange centered in the area between 600Hz and 800Hz; this requires a thoughtful crossover approach. Additionally, the upper range rise and cut off at 3500Hz creates another set of challenges.

    One of the LF configurations in evaluation, used with a Dayton RSS210PR in a 16L net enclosure:



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    The TPL75 is an AMT HF driver from Beyma, intended for professional applications, and often isn't available from DIY component vendors.





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    This is their "smallest" AMT driver, but it is reasonably robust and shows low levels of distortion down to its corner frequency.



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    An initial crossover feasibility evaluation from the first test data shows promising potential for further development...


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    The approximate POC test cabinet front panel layout plan is straightforward, and could support either a back located passive radiator or a vertical port planar loaded at the bottom.


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    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
  • technodanvan
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 1034

    #2
    Originally posted by Evil Twin
    Only one dome tweeter has been given serious consideration, given its superlative track record for price/performance value and very uniform response and low distortion, but it is typically nearly impossible to source at this time. However, we have a limited stock on hand, and a test order has been placed with a distributor in a remote star sector which appears to be accepted and processed, so at least a certain number could be built using the Peerless DA25TX008.
    As one who purchased a pair of Peerless DA25TX008 back when you first showed interest in the tweeter I might be interested in this design. Sign me up for one with a PR!
    - Danny

    Comment

    • Evil Twin
      Super Senior Member
      • Nov 2004
      • 1532

      #3
      Duly noted, and expect that it will also receive the POC evaluation the DA25TX008 justly deserves. The results for the Calliope are a good indication of the interesting potential, of course.


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      Note that we have advice of pending shipment from the remote sector of a "test order" of DA25TX008. Note also, that that sector is so remote, that the only way it could be any father away would be if it were located in Antarctica. But I have already visited that area, and did not find any DA25TX008 there... our search has been most thorough.


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      DFAL
      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

      Comment

      • duvixan
        Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 58

        #4
        Originally posted by Evil Twin
        the DA25TX008 justly deserves. The results for the Calliope are a good indication of the interesting potential
        I wanted to ask.. I noticed all designs with DA25TX008 here have different circuits to tame the peak. Is any one of the the optimal?
        And would it work for any other tweeters also having the 25-27khz resonance? Thank you

        Comment

        • technodanvan
          Super Senior Member
          • Nov 2009
          • 1034

          #5
          Have you seen the 6 1/2" two-way ASR came up with? Still based on a 6 1/2" Purifi, but using the Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT tweeter and an SB Acoustics 'racetrack' passive radiator. Of course, this is an active design too.

          There are several Directiva threads, but this is the main one for background and discussion. If you are considering building one, see the build thread here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/directiva-r1-speaker-build-using-denovo-flat-pack.23535/ For other related...


          See Amir's review here! Here is BOM... So this is a build of the Directiva r1 speaker. I have not give much thought to a good naming scheme, so am calling it r1 for now. It is based on a Denovo cabinet sold by Parts Express (and others). Parts Express has changed suppliers, and the...

          - Danny

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15298

            #6
            Originally posted by duvixan

            I wanted to ask.. I noticed all designs with DA25TX008 here have different circuits to tame the peak. Is any one of the the optimal?
            And would it work for any other tweeters also having the 25-27khz resonance? Thank you
            The two designs posted here by me for the DA25TX--8 are quite similar as regards the series notch filter. Not quite identical twins, but certainly closer than kissing cousins...


            But first, how much familiarity do you have with tuned LC resonant circuits? My background is RF when I was a kid and a radio amateur, and in my 35 year career with a German semiconductor company doing power conversion applications engineering and product definition. No formal schooling, but there's tons of stuff in books.

            Tuned electrical circuits are analogous to mechanical systems like that dome tweeter, which has distributed mass and, you might say, distributed flex! The mechanical resonance of a tweeter will have a certain Q, or quality factor, akin to resonant electrical circuits. This resonance may be low Q, (low amplitude or high Q (high amplitude) and will have a base width frequency wide depending on the "quality" of the resonance. Tweeters vary in material and dome curvature and profile, so their breakup properties can be all over the place. Some Diamond and Beryllium tweeters have very well designed and fabricated structures with almost no detectable breakup.

            Now, if you look at the polar response of the DA25TX, it's interesting because the different measurement axis product amplitude curves that look somewhat like the variation in Q of resonance on axis for different tweeters.


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            Some tweeters may have a relatively low Q break up and look more like the 30 or 40 degree off axis peak of the DA25TX than the on axis curve.


            The purpose of a series notch filter is usually two fold, to reduce the impact on SPL response of the break up mode on the output, but also to reduce resonance amplification of distortion products. So this notch filter curve ideally should mirror the Q characteristic of the tweeter, if you want to get the flattest on axis response. In practice, completely accomplishing that at 27-30 kHz may have little effect on the subjective quality of the design to the human ear, of course.


            Now, lets look at a measurement of the DA25TX on axis with distortion plotted:


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            The impact on this tweeter is particularly great for HD2, some show more impact on HD3.


            Now, one can be a bit arbitrary about selecting the values for this network- but two principles should be adhered to:
            • The resonant frequency of the network should match the breakup mode of the tweeter
            • The the net Q should be comparable, if a very flat on axis response is desired. This means that for a given frequency and impedance load, there is only one resonant combination of inductor and capacitor this is going to put things in the right ballpark, and that the net Q and attenuation will be adjusted either by a series resistance with one or more of the reactive elements, or by a parallel resistor. to limit the maximum impedance climb.

            Let's look at the two designs I've been involved with for the DA25TX to date, the Calliope and the Ardent D.



            Calliope Two way

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            Ardent D Three way


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            These are not very different at all, both having 27uH inductors, but different values for the series resistor to knock down the Q, and 1.2 or 1.3uF capacitance. Note, they should be employed after any LPAD structure, or the impedance path blocking for resonance distortion blocking will not work.



            This plot of the DA25TX with the Calliope high pass crossover shows the achievable results, for SPL and distortion.


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            Now, it could be argued that this could be improved on a smig and that tiny peak reduced further, but at some point the effort runs into diminishing returns AND component variability- the ideal network for one sample might be a bit off for another, anyway. When you have HD3 on a tweeter at -70dB in the operating range, it may be time to look more at other issues!

            Now, you could decide that it's easier to get a 100uH tweeter, and redesign the network for the same resonant frequency by dropping the cap value to 1/4, but then the load matching for a given Q will be off... get out your copy of VituixCAD and just play with the circuits and look at the Filter plot as you change the values.



            One last comment- some DSP programs might have the ability to create a sharp notch filter, to address the SPL, but that won't provide the impedance isolation and distortion reduction of a passive notch filter. If you use an active DSP with hard dome tweeters, it's a good idea to plan on incorporating passive notch filters.

            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • duvixan
              Member
              • Sep 2012
              • 58

              #7
              Originally posted by JonMarsh

              The two designs posted here by me for the DA25TX--8 are quite similar
              Thank you for the in-depth response!
              I would've been much less confused if it were only two
              But I have saved SIX of them from here on htguide -


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              And the values of the capacitance vary 0.15uH/2.2uF (NatalieP DA), 0.15uH/2.7uF (Obi-Wan POC) 0.20uH/1.8uF (WA Ardent 12MU-DA25)
              Unfortunately, i dont know much at all about circuits, so it triggered my curiosity to find out if the latest design also has the most optimal circuit.



              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15298

                #8
                First, only the Ardent D and the Calliope are finished designs. The others are design proposals. And the Obi-Wan uses a different tweeter, an MB Quart titanium dome model that is in buyout status at PE, but with over 300 parts available- unlike the DA25 which became nearly impossible to source.

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                The others are POC design study stage, and I have been looking at increasing the inductor size if feasible to something that can be purchased more readily, because many home builders do not have an LCR meter to check and unwind or wind inductors from scratch like I have. For example, the Natalie DA uses an even more "optimum" impedance combination because I have no trouble creating a 15uH inductor and verifying it, but for the average DIY constructor, this is a problem. But even this was just a first pass design- sometimes I think I shouldn't share work in progress, in case it's misunderstood, but others tell me they really like to see how the "Sausage is ground".

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                When I was 11 and a fledgling radio amateur, I learned out of books how to calculate these S-plane circuit behavior on a slide rule, and had a friend/mentor in high school the next town over from us. It was only when I was older I realized that wasn't very "normal". By 13 I had a Technician class license (less code required) and like my mentor, was doing VHF and Video.

                These days I'm more relaxed about my goals...



                😂



























                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15298

                  #9
                  This is not a project that has been getting much lovin' from either ET or me, due to ongoing high priority projects like the Saint-Saëns planar and the CC Supreme.

                  BUT!...

                  The PruiFi SPK16 blog with it's somewhat "vague" reporting has sparked some behind the scenes interest, as it kind of fits in with the whole Modula PBD concept (PuriFi-BlieSMa-Dayton) or even a newer "exploratory" quick turn concept, the Modula PVD (PuriFi-Visaton-Dayton) idea. Besides, I've been looking for something fun to do with my big round over bits...

                  The LF area is pretty straightforward- this is the fundamental LF analysis using the NAA 6.5" aluminum PuriFi woofer, 4 ohm version, with two Dayton RSS210PR:


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                  This is pushed to the Xmax limit, with 75W at 4 ohms, so a stout 50-75W @ 8 ohm amplifier may suffice. Something like my Denafrips Hestia should be fine.


                  A couple of potential HF solutions are being investigated/developed. Optimizing a waveguide for a given tweeter is not a simple matter, as many have found out the hard way.


                  The more "mainstream" (and expensive) solution under consideration is the BlieSMa T25B-6 combined with a 6" circular waveguide;

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                  The tweeters are the easy part- just takes money.

                  The waveguide? Well, an idea being investigated is a scaled version of a waveguide developed by Augerpro for the T34B-4. Initial work and drawings done, some detail stuff to finish up. Need to select a 3rd party vendor to fab a couple of these from STL files.


                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Prelim T25B-6 Waveguide.png Views:	0 Size:	890.3 KB ID:	943745


                  A more off the beaten track possibility exists- I brought back from CA storage samples of the Visaton KE 25 SC ceramic dome tweeter, and have modified two, and will be assembling and testing them with the Visaton WG 148 R waveguide, which was used in several Visaton Kit configurations. Measured results from Visaton with a relatively simple crossover look encouraging enough to spend a bit of time evaluating this. I have about a dozen of the Visaton waveguides on hand, and there are more in stock in US distributors.


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                  I created a 3D model of the waveguide in Shapr3D for the purpose of facilitating a cabinet design:


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                  I do consider this a "dark horse" possibility, but considering the low effort involved to evaluate, I also figure I'd be remiss in not doing that.




















                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • technodanvan
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 1034

                    #10
                    Sounds like the Peerless DA25 is out then? This would be good, as mine are already taken by ANOTHER project of yours.
                    - Danny

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15298

                      #11
                      For now, yeah... I'm guessing you actually mean the DA25TX. I've got a number of pairs, but they're reserved for the Natalie P Ultra builds. So at this point, exploring two HF concepts, both with waveguides (at this point) and both the paper and aluminum cone PTT6.5. Looks like I'll get some help from Dhar to fabricate a test waveguide for the T25B-6- if it works well acoustically, then get some made by a 3D printer vendor.
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • theSven
                        Master of None
                        • Jan 2014
                        • 1413

                        #12
                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                        For now, yeah... I'm guessing you actually mean the DA25TX. I've got a number of pairs, but they're reserved for the Natalie P Ultra builds. So at this point, exploring two HF concepts, both with waveguides (at this point) and both the paper and aluminum cone PTT6.5. Looks like I'll get some help from Dhar to fabricate a test waveguide for the T25B-6- if it works well acoustically, then get some made by a 3D printer vendor.
                        So there is value in a 3D printer with DIY 🤣🤣🤣🤣. In all seriousness though it would be awesome if Efalegalo shared the waveguide files so others could try printing them.
                        Painter in training

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15298

                          #13
                          I'm sending him an STL CAD output file later today. Pretty much any 3D printer software can work with that, as far as I know... they don't like STEP or IGES formats, has to do with how the data describes the item.
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15298

                            #14
                            I shouldn't steal any of Dhar's thunder, but he sent me a pic yesterday evening of the printer running on the job, says it should be finished in about 12 hours...

                            I'm wiring up a test fixture and should be testing the long shot "budget" (relatively) Visaton alternative later today...
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15298

                              #15
                              Dhar has been very busy- got the run going yesterday after consulting about dimensioning and scaling. Popped out of the "oven" this morning!

                              Team "BlieSMa T25B-6" forges ahead!


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                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15298

                                #16
                                But wait! Team " Vintage Visaton" has been burning the midnight oil, too!

                                And test hardware was ready this morning...


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                                This is another example of what I could call "playing the long game", but the reality is more like the old saying, "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" - these were other plans to investigate that had to be set aside for a while.

                                A lot like my 2017 purchase of a just introduced Festool Random Orbital Sander, which I didn't get around to unpacking and using for the first time until this weekend, working on the Saint-Saëns project. Really folks, that's a bit ridiculous, but it's a really nice ROS!

                                But is this a really nice HF solution? Let's be realistic, I think of this as a big of a Dark Horse opportunity; relatively inexpensive, fast to assemble, and reportedly "proven" in designs done by Visaton to promote. But, we have "great expectations"- not going to be easy to match.


                                So I setup today and did on axis and polar measurements. The quick summary is that it's a mixed bag, but with some fairly good characteristics if one probes a bit.

                                How so?

                                Well, first up was on axis, 0 degrees... didn't really "charm"...


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                                Hard to say where to lay the blame, probably some concentrated reflections with cancellations...


                                ​​​​​​​But I figure since I was all setup, for completeness I should run the normal polar set I do on this kind of part, out to 50 degrees at 10 degree intervals. That proved to be "interesting", and I even went further, and did some RMS averages of some angles that will tend to dominate the power response in combination, and are more representative of actually direct sound listening angles in many cases- only one spot in the room is 0 degrees horizontal and vertical.


                                So, I'll lead off here with the "intriguing" stuff...


                                20 degrees off axis, with distortion:


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                                My, this is more like what we'd like to see...


                                ​​​​​​​But the distortion curves are certainly unusual- unlike the typical ScanSpeak and SB Acoustics 2nd order topping HD3 by 15 dB or so, it's actually as much as 10-15 dB less. And the HD3 at 8 kHz can be knocked down quite a bit with our usual ultrasonic breakup mode filter


                                ​​​​​​​Ok, if we subscribe to the idea that an RMS average of the response from 10 deg to 30 deg is going to be a solid design metric, what do we have?


                                Click image for larger version

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                                Doesn't look to hard to work with- but I'd say for best results, it would probably be best to crossover around 3kHz- doable with the PTT6.4X04-NAA metal cone woofer, though not with the older paper cone version.

                                ​​​​​​​As easy as its would be to do a cobble up a version with this configuration and do a listening test, I doubt I'll be able to resist.

                                ​​​​​​​Parts are still in the channel that I know of, and the waveguide is in stock at Mouser. And it's now a "NEW" part at PE, too, of all things! They're also in stock at Solen, as is the tweeter. The G 20 SC and others with a 94 mm mounting hole diameter spacing will mount.


















                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • technodanvan
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2009
                                  • 1034

                                  #17
                                  Those look great! Really would like to try a waveguide design someday. Maybe I can use that excuse to buy a 3d printer...
                                  - Danny

                                  Comment

                                  • Scareurpasenger
                                    Member
                                    • Jan 2017
                                    • 68

                                    #18
                                    I will offer up some 3d printing at cost of material and postage. I want to give back a bit to the community here that has been so helpful.

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15298

                                      #19
                                      That is a kind offer and I may be in touch soon with follow up, depending on how some experiments go, and if we need follow on.
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • Steve Manning
                                        Moderator
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 1892

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by svenarajala

                                        So there is value in a 3D printer with DIY 🤣🤣🤣🤣. In all seriousness though it would be awesome if Efalegalo shared the waveguide files so others could try printing them.
                                        I think using a 3D printer is a great option for development and prototype work. Once the design is optimized then go for machining the waveguide directly into the baffle.
                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                        Comment


                                        • technodanvan
                                          technodanvan commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Geez, now I need a CNC too? This forum is killing my wallet.

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          JonMarsh commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          OK, Steve might say, "You wanna play, you gotta pay!"

                                          This from the guy that just carefully researched router tables to work with his Bosch router for doing (1) machining operation on the Saint-Saëns MF-HF cabinet front panels... and ordered it. Will be here two days from now, this Sunday...

                                        • theSven
                                          theSven commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          PHOTOS of the new table!!!
                                      • Scareurpasenger
                                        Member
                                        • Jan 2017
                                        • 68

                                        #21
                                        The 3d printing can also be good for router templates. Having the baffle built into the wood is a very nice look!

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15298

                                          #22
                                          Originally posted by Scareurpasenger
                                          The 3d printing can also be good for router templates. Having the baffle built into the wood is a very nice look!
                                          I've been doing things "the hard way", building hard phenolic routing templates from phenolic sheet...

                                          Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do...
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • Steve Manning
                                            Moderator
                                            • Dec 2006
                                            • 1892

                                            #23
                                            Originally posted by Scareurpasenger
                                            The 3d printing can also be good for router templates. Having the baffle built into the wood is a very nice look!
                                            Good idea 👍
                                            Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                            WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                            Comment

                                            • Efalegalo
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jan 2007
                                              • 139

                                              #24
                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                              But wait! Team " Vintage Visaton" has been burning the midnight oil, too!

                                              And test hardware was ready this morning...


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                                              This is another example of what I could call "playing the long game", but the reality is more like the old saying, "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" - these were other plans to investigate that had to be set aside for a while.

                                              A lot like my 2017 purchase of a just introduced Festool Random Orbital Sander, which I didn't get around to unpacking and using for the first time until this weekend, working on the Saint-Saëns project. Really folks, that's a bit ridiculous, but it's a really nice ROS!

                                              But is this a really nice HF solution? Let's be realistic, I think of this as a big of a Dark Horse opportunity; relatively inexpensive, fast to assemble, and reportedly "proven" in designs done by Visaton to promote. But, we have "great expectations"- not going to be easy to match.


                                              So I setup today and did on axis and polar measurements. The quick summary is that it's a mixed bag, but with some fairly good characteristics if one probes a bit.

                                              How so?

                                              Well, first up was on axis, 0 degrees... didn't really "charm"...


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	KE 25 SC 0 Deg.png Views:	68 Size:	91.5 KB ID:	943931

                                              Hard to say where to lay the blame, probably some concentrated reflections with cancellations...


                                              But I figure since I was all setup, for completeness I should run the normal polar set I do on this kind of part, out to 50 degrees at 10 degree intervals. That proved to be "interesting", and I even went further, and did some RMS averages of some angles that will tend to dominate the power response in combination, and are more representative of actually direct sound listening angles in many cases- only one spot in the room is 0 degrees horizontal and vertical.


                                              So, I'll lead off here with the "intriguing" stuff...


                                              20 degrees off axis, with distortion:


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	KE 25 SC 20 Deg Disto.png Views:	65 Size:	205.5 KB ID:	943932



                                              My, this is more like what we'd like to see...


                                              But the distortion curves are certainly unusual- unlike the typical ScanSpeak and SB Acoustics 2nd order topping HD3 by 15 dB or so, it's actually as much as 10-15 dB less. And the HD3 at 8 kHz can be knocked down quite a bit with our usual ultrasonic breakup mode filter


                                              ​​​​​​​Ok, if we subscribe to the idea that an RMS average of the response from 10 deg to 30 deg is going to be a solid design metric, what do we have?


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	KE 25 SC 10-30 Deg RMS Avg .png Views:	67 Size:	86.3 KB ID:	943933

                                              Doesn't look to hard to work with- but I'd say for best results, it would probably be best to crossover around 3kHz- doable with the PTT6.4X04-NAA metal cone woofer, though not with the older paper cone version.

                                              ​​​​​​​As easy as its would be to do a cobble up a version with this configuration and do a listening test, I doubt I'll be able to resist.

                                              ​​​​​​​Parts are still in the channel that I know of, and the waveguide is in stock at Mouser. And it's now a "NEW" part at PE, too, of all things! They're also in stock at Solen, as is the tweeter. The G 20 SC and others with a 94 mm mounting hole diameter spacing will mount.


















                                              Jon,

                                              was the waveguide flush mounted, when testing? See image below for difference between flushmounted vs not

                                              ​​​​​​​Click image for larger version

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                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15298

                                                #25
                                                No, it wasn't, and that's another reason I planned a follow up test when I wouldn't just be cutting up an existing fixture (made for flush mounting of a T25 by itself) but could do it properly. The diffraction issues for NOT flush mounting refract and concentrate on axis, but generally don't appear much off axis.

                                                It's on the to-do list, hopefully this week- the size is just 0.03" smaller than the waveguide you were fabricating for me (5.82" versus 5.85")(that's not a coincidence, but to facilitate testing), so one test fixture will work for both.

                                                You know what they say, stay tuned for further developments.
                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15298

                                                  #26
                                                  The T25B waveguide looks to be on track to arrive here on Tuesday the 11th. And I've just glued up a new waveguide text fixture that will get properly routed out for flush fit for both waveguides tomorrow.

                                                  Sunday? Day of rest? Hah! Not around here!
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15298

                                                    #27
                                                    Well, will wonders never cease! My new Bosch bench top router table arrived on Sunday, a day early, and the T25B waveguide 3D print by Dhar arrived today!


                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                    Some times a plan does come together... a big hats off to Dhar for printing this for me!


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                                                    And the print job was quite accurate- regardless of dimension scaling concerns from imperial to mm.


                                                    Here's the waveguide stacked on top of a Visaton WG148R-


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                                                    As planned, with the same lip thickness, and the same diameter, they'll both work in the same rebate of 5-7/8" in the test fixture that's now ready to route.


                                                    Better start taking a T25B apart... that takes some care, but have done it with T34A's.








                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                    Natalie P
                                                    M8ta
                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                    Isiris
                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                    SMJ
                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                    Calliope
                                                    Ardent D

                                                    In Development...
                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                    Modula PWB
                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15298

                                                      #28
                                                      Do you ever have one of those weeks where so much stuff comes up that you don't get to your #2 planned task almost all week? This week has been like that, (things like battery replacement and new tires for wife's Lexus, addressing issues with new grille, etc., new Zoom meeting confab regarding the CC Supreme, and other logistic issues)

                                                      But, FINALLY I did get to the final stage of the text fixture fabrication for the two 6" test waveguides - Visaton and T25B POC- doing the rebate route and through hole.


                                                      And though I'll admit my precision in the past on achieving tight rebate diameters is questionable, this time...


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                                                      Visaton WG148R:

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                                                      POC T25B fabricated by Dhar from design file I sent him:

                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • technodanvan
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2009
                                                        • 1034

                                                        #29
                                                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                        ...new Zoom meeting confab regarding the CC Supreme...
                                                        Is this regarding the ES180Ti and its newfound lack of availability? Or was that the other CC...
                                                        - Danny

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 1532

                                                          #30
                                                          This was in regard to the CC Supreme concept, which Sven had expressed substantial interest in regardless of the size, cost, and complexity, or possibly BECAUSE of the size, cost and complexity, ameliorated by the expected performance. This is the CC using dual PTT8.0X04NAB as the woofers, a PuriFi PTT6.5M04 as the midrange, and a Beyma Pro AMT TPL150H tweeter on the top end, using a minimum phase transient correct asymmetric Harsch crossover.

                                                          This is the POC build for evaluating the concept before creating as TTC version, though that effort is also fairly far along...

                                                          Click image for larger version

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                                                          This is not your father's sound bar; according to Steve, the commercial system most similar in driver configuration for woofers and midrange is the Wilson Audio Mezzo, which I hadn't seen until he brought it to my attention.


                                                          Click image for larger version

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                                                          The woofer crossover is the only one still in assembly, and test results of the midrange and tweeter together are conforming to expectations...
                                                          ​​​​​​​​

                                                          Click image for larger version

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                                                          There is an interesting "option" for adjustable LF slope level to match up with subwoofer settings that may be elevated at times due to "personal taste" which was discussed with Steve and will be implemented on the POC build being completed. Detailed BOMS were discussed and some updates to the TTC cabinet concept under consideration. A very productive Zoom call, I'd say...




                                                          DFAL
                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                          Comment

                                                          • dar47
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2008
                                                            • 876

                                                            #31
                                                            Consort Hall size centre!

                                                            Glad the TB25 2way version still being developed, I am defiantly building that one. I am not sure I would carve the wave guild out of wood again as I did with your Modula design I did. The first copy baffle cracked with constraining the baffle. The second attempt is still is still singing along though. Maybe anodized aluminum or POM. For this one maybe Steve can make a run of completed baffles.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Evil Twin
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Nov 2004
                                                              • 1532

                                                              #32
                                                              Mr. Manning has stated his willingness to fabricate wood versions of any "successful" or "proven" design, even to incorporate them within a specific baffle.

                                                              The Chancellor has "urged" me to provide temporary support for the fabrication of the test prototype hardware for the Saint-Saëns, so assembly and testing of the waveguide updates may be delayed a few more days... I believe so many people are distracted by the self induced planetary warming issues this summer that this delay will go largely unnoticed. This climate shift is introducing restricted working hours in the primary northern fabrication and assembly facility.

                                                              There is some development overlap between these projects, as techniques for enclosure wall damping and driver filter requirements have some significant technology overlaps.

                                                              How this is happening will become clear in time.





                                                              DFAL
                                                              Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                              A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Evil Twin
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 1532

                                                                #33
                                                                The diversification of effort among several projects naturally leads to delays for some activities... This should NOT be interpreted as a lack of interest, but rather of a necessarily wide focus in activities...

                                                                New measurements of the "dark horse" candidate have been completed in a more carefully crafted text fixture- results are improved, though not startlingly so.

                                                                This is a basic polar plot in 10 degree increments out to 40 degrees...

                                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                                This is an RMS averaged plot, to give a possibly useful indicator of the primary forward room power response...


                                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                                And a distortion plot.

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                                                                Two points of note:
                                                                • The use of a series notch filter should reduce the HD2 and HD3 distortion peak substantially, as past practice with other ceramic composite dome tweeters like the Peerless DA25TX0008 have shown
                                                                • Unlike many "modern" dome tweeters of supposedly high repute, it does not exhibit substantially higher HD2 than HD3. interesting, most interesting, and preferred.

                                                                Considering the ease of supply and construction, this combination should merit a more complete POC evaluation in a potential system configuration, even though it might not be the preferred choice for "purists".















                                                                DFAL
                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                Comment


                                                                • theSven
                                                                  theSven commented
                                                                  Editing a comment
                                                                  What does the Chancellor say about Purists?

                                                                • Evil Twin
                                                                  Evil Twin commented
                                                                  Editing a comment
                                                                  Purists may achieve a higher overall level in the Force, but the training and effort to get there may be substantially higher.... while some believe it would be necessary to "PuriFi" the HF unit, the most promising option may be a physically modified BlieSMa Be tweeter combined with a custom waveguide.
                                                              • Evil Twin
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 1532

                                                                #34
                                                                The alternative HF driver for the "Purist" and custom waveguide to evaluate are in preparation for assembly, but it may be "interesting" for some to note what is possible with low effort with an "expedient" approach... Note, the mid woofer measurement was taken in a small enclosure suited more to evaluation as a midrange driver, so performance below 200Hz is compromised. But as a POC effort, it shows reasonable promise for low effort.

                                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                                DFAL
                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Evil Twin
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                  • 1532

                                                                  #35
                                                                  Now an update on the status of the custom waveguide design for the BlieSMa T25b-

                                                                  Competing priorities have delayed this assembly and evaluation effort, but it is now underway. The resin material of the waveguide Dhar printed is quite strong and hard, making the small adjustments needed to the throat area more time consuming than expected. Should this design show promise, updating either the throat region or the complete design will be an immediate requirement.

                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  The impedance sweep data is in line with expectations, and the audible tonality and volume levels were more than acceptable.

                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  Mounting and testing should be implemented by the end of the week, pending the completion of other scheduled tasks.

                                                                  Promising... most promising!


                                                                  DFAL
                                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Evil Twin
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                                    • 1532

                                                                    #36
                                                                    Some progress in evaluation has been made- travel to other regions of the local galactic arm as well communications with potential vendors for some components have delayed completing and posting this initial evaluation.


                                                                    There are some impressive positives, but also remaining issues to address, and a new significant concern regarding the supply chain for critical materials.

                                                                    ​​​​​​​As noted about, the impedance curve is clean without significant issues- what I did not relate was how clean and robust the audible performance was during the impedance sweep. There are times that interaction with the driving current source reveals issues related to impedance anomalies, and these did not seem to be present in any regard.


                                                                    The on axis amplitude response and distortion appear quite commendable... it is quiet likely that the saturated gap motor and relatively high Xmax play a clear role in this performance.

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                                                                    However, the initial polar plot reveals reflections causing cancellations in some frequency regions of the off axis response:


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                                                                    Still, there is potential to be addressed, and additional evaluation and a POC design was established in VituixCAD.

                                                                    ​​​​​​​The target evaluation was conducted for a 2250Hz crossover with LR3 high pass.


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                                                                    It should be noted that the parallel shunt LCR network was originally calculated for nulling the impedance rise at Fs, but then adjusted to fine tune the response in that frequency region.



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                                                                    While I plan an adjustment to the waveguide scale and possibly depth, this POC exercise shows enough potential that I believe it may be "useful" to construct a simple example with the PTT6.5X04-NAA woofer, to consider the overall transfer function subjective behavior.

                                                                    This will be deferred until the completion of the CC Supreme initial design POC, but that date is approaching rapidly...






                                                                    DFAL
                                                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

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                                                                    • Evil Twin
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Nov 2004
                                                                      • 1532

                                                                      #37
                                                                      On the more cautionary side, I noted recently that on the ScanSpeak site, ALL Beryllium tweeters are "temporarily unavailable due to material issues".

                                                                      The worldwide produces of Beryllium for planet earth are the United States of America, Kazakstan, and China. Given the escalating Cold War between the USA and China, the PRC has undertaken an embargo on exports of many rare earth materials to the West. Supply from Kazakhstan may be impeded due to the Ukraine "special operation" and the fall out from that. Manufacturing the actual diaphragms is not undertaken by the actual driver manufacturers.

                                                                      The question which naturally arises, is how secure is BlieSMa's supply chain? We already have considerable evidence that just changing the dome material and with the necessary adjustments to the dome profile causes issues with interaction with waveguides- Augerpro has documented this.
                                                                      DFAL
                                                                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                      Comment

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