Ardent Speaker Camp

[chasw98]

106 Fahrenheit!
Makes Florida look like an air conditioned state.
That really is 'Sweat Equity'!

[Hdale85]

I got used to 110-120 in Phoenix but it was pretty different as it was extremely dry. Still hot though.

[ColoradoTom]

OK- status report- all of the 12 sub panel pieces for making the front panels for the "premium pair" and the "RS+Seas pair" have been ripped and 10 degree bevel crosscut to the final length, meeting planned precision and accuracy targets.

It takes a lot longer to build 4 of something than 2!! :roll:

It's now 106 out, :E and even the Imperial work safety rules say no more wood cutting outdoors in these temperatures. Besides, I have to get cleaned up and ready to take my daughter to dinner for her birthday. :B

Yup.... I didn't get much work done yesterday with the rain and then we celebrated my daughter getting her braces off. She went from looking like a 12 year old to looking like an 18 year old in about 3 hours. :E I'm not sure this is a good thing. :M

Happy birthday to you daughter!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Yup....


She went from looking like a 12 year old to looking like an 18 year old in about 3 hours. :E I'm not sure this is a good thing. :M

Happy birthday to you daughter!

Tom

That feeling is rather familiar! Even though a few years back! Congratulations on getting the braces off- I bet she's happy!


The heat definitely slowed me down- made me think extra and check everything two or three times before committing to the final cuts. Now I've got some good size cut off pieces, too, for experimenting with finishing.


Today's bit of humor: my daughter was telling her boyfriend about me a bit and about this speaker project I'm working on, and his response was a bit of mild disbelief that people could build speakers at home! :W

We gotta straighten that boy out.... :rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Just to show sawdust has been made

Bevel cross cuts on the various front panel pieces, including the veneered front pieces, shown here, "lining up the shot".






Next up, today's work....

[Cdub]

Jon,

I don't know if you remember me , but you were generous enough to share to speaker building expertise with me several years back to help me build my first set of speakers. I always enjoy watching your builds! Stay cool! I know its hot out there!

Chris

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

I don't know if you remember me , but you were generous enough to share to speaker building expertise with me several years back to help me build my first set of speakers. I always enjoy watching your builds! Stay cool! I know its hot out there!

Chris

Yes, I do remember you and the Usher MT's you were building! Yeah, the weather was brutal this weekend- 107 Sunday in Livermore- made the 96 yesterday seem pretty moderate in comparison! A mild 91 predicted for today!

[JonMarsh]

Jigs and front panel work

Just a teaser, spent more time fine tuning the front panel jigs and setting up routers, but today I expect to be on a roll finishing the cutting.

Here you can see the jig for the midrange front panel rebate- yes, the C79 slips in there nicely flush, just like factory. :B




That bit comes with a Porter-Cable 59370 door hinge template set; you can buy it separately as a replacement part, but it's harder to find and costs about the same as the complete kit. I have only recently found a bit that may be short enough, (1/2" cutting length), but I'm set up with this for now, and with just a few cuts to make, good to go.

[CraigJ]

Here you can see the jig for the midrange front panel rebate- yes, the C79 slips in there nicely flush, just like factory. :B

I suspect it will be better than the factory. Looking very nice and hope you are still having fun in your second week on camp. Guess I'm going to have to increase the budget for additional tools...

Craig

[bigg]

table saws

Well I was going to get a Ryobi BT3100 for my shop. But I notice that you are using a Craftsman Professional something or other. What do you currently recommend?

I agree :agree: about the Forrest Woodworker II blades. I had one on my old table saw.

Another question. I thought the HI Vi D6.8 was supposed to be better than the RS180. But not considered for this project? :huh:

[Hdale85]

The BT3100 is no longer made and rather difficult to find.

[Bear]

The BT3100 is no longer made and rather difficult to find.

The Sears 21829 is the same thing, but with a "portable" trolley stand that makes people think it's really a contractor's saw. Some of it's negative reputation comes from people bouncing it around, and then being disappointed when the cuts aren't very precise. The blade alignment apparently doesn't take well to bouncing around in the back of a truck and then being put immediately into use.

[Hdale85]

Ok well that's 500 bucks. Isn't there a better option for around 500-600? The BT3100 was so popular because it was like 300 and very good for 300.

[JonMarsh]

Well, everyone has an opinion about saws, of course- mine is currently a mixture of parts from a BT3100 and the Craftsman 21829, which is made by Ryobi for Sears, and has very strong BT3100 DNA.

The 21829 has the "optional" parts (like the complete Router accessory kit and additional plate) that you paid extra for in a separate kit for the BT3100, which plus inflation explains the price differences pretty well. Like the BT3100, it comes with a sliding miter table.

The motor and drive system are identical, so you can do deeper cuts than any other 10" saw on the market that I know of- 3-5/8". The $529 DeWalt DW744 only does 3-1/8". The fence rails are of the same design and cross section as the BT3100, but are 6" longer, at 48", which combined with the easy lock/unlock gives you a lot of flexibility for quick changes of the saw setup, such as sliding miter table on the left or right, depending on the cut you're doing; important for things like the top and bottom bevel cuts on the front panel (that DeWalt isn't no where in site now, - grossly inferior fence rails and no miter table).

In my experience, the Ryobi and the 21829 were setup well out of the box; of course, you should always double check things, but this one was dead nuts on, and the proof is when you're cutting, as even after 48" 1-1/2" thick MDF rips the blade is cool, and the cuts are true.

I've looked at a lot of saws over the years in the sub $750 category, including the old Rigid's and the Hitachi C10FL. You get a lot of saw for your dollar in some cases if you're more concerned about pounds per dollar (the Hitachi is 262 lb, certainly rivaling the "heavy weight" Rigid models, and it has a nicer fence rail system than most other saws in this price class. BUT, as equipped, you can't do all the things with it you can do with the Ryobi or the 21829, and it would take a number of expensive accessories to come close. And the smaller Hitachi job site saws are a joke in comparison, even the so-called professional version.

The M8ta's were built with a BT3100.




So far, this Frankensaw combination is doing just fine (yeah, everything is interchangeable, including my older router table, fences, base, and the extra BT3100 motor I picked up on Ebay but have never had to use).

So, if there's a "better" saw out there for $500, I'm all ears, guys....

[JonMarsh]

Well I was going to get a Ryobi BT3100 for my shop. But I notice that you are using a Craftsman Professional something or other. What do you currently recommend?

I agree :agree: about the Forrest Woodworker II blades. I had one on my old table saw.

Another question. I thought the HI Vi D6.8 was supposed to be better than the RS180. But not considered for this project? :huh:

Ryobi/Home Depot don't sell the BT3100 anymore; they see their market as in contractor stuff and lightweight movable saws. The Craftsman 21829 is a tweaked up version of the 3100 on a movable base with longer fence rails and the full accessory kit thrown it; I'd suggest that unless you have the room and money for a good 12" cabinet saw.

Their are many basis for choosing a mid woofer- including the T/S parameters for the desired/feasible enclosure size; sensitivity (which results from those T/S parameters), HF breakups to deal with, and of course, price. The D6.8 was the right driver for a 1 cu ft dual woofer center channel design, with no upper breakup modes to deal with in the crossover, and an LF response for two in that size box that was what I was looking for.

The Rs180 version here is based on lower driver cost- the RS180 is less expensive than the HiVi D6.8, and the T/S parameters and LF response in this size cabinet more similar to the first choice, the Seas ER18RNX. It also comes closer to matching the sensitivity of the Seas, being only 1-1/2 dB off.

You know, the "Y" in DIY is You, so anyone who wants to should feel free to just use this (once it's all published, or at any point) as just a jumping off point. OTOH, I will not be available as a consultant to sort out the details of every possible other design variant... :W I've got bigger fish to fry next.

[JonMarsh]

Today's action pics for the Padawan's who crave excitement and adventure:

The Whiteside pattern bit is used to clean up the bottom of the midwoofer holes after the main part is cut out with a spiral upcut bit and saber saw.





The LBL core for the outer front panel has an interesting texture, as seen here in the prepared tweeter opening; it is quite hard and dense, not hard to see why Jim Salk and some others are doing enclosure work with it; but it seems to machine nicely, at least with sharp tools.

[Hdale85]

Ok I was mainly asking if there is a better saw out there for the money. I'm wondering how much a 12" cabinet saw goes for. For the cost maybe I'm better off doing something like you and sort of building my own setup based around the 21829. I have a couple years until I'll be able to do anything though haha. Gotta finish school and we are moving away and buying a house.

[Bear]

Ok I was mainly asking if there is a better saw out there for the money. I'm wondering how much a 12" cabinet saw goes for. For the cost maybe I'm better off doing something like you and sort of building my own setup based around the 21829. I have a couple years until I'll be able to do anything though haha. Gotta finish school and we are moving away and buying a house.

Craigslist is a good place to look, especially for cabinet saws. Many of the ones I saw when I was shopping were ""Grandad's, who recently passed away", or tradesman types who were in financial straits due to what's going on in the home construction market. Sears also puts the 21829 on sale periodically if you want new. I think I paid $350 for mine this past December. If you are looking at BT3100s via Craigslist, you will want to check them out very carefully. I found one for sale for $50 that wasn't even worth that much (it was stored right under the overhang of his roof).

[JonMarsh]

Very good suggestions from Bill.

One last point to think about is how mobile do you need to be? And how much help do you have? Traditionally designed power saws tend to be rather heavy for what they do- and are not a one person move. ThomasW's Delta Unisaw has sat in his basement since he bought it- the idea of moving it would probably bring shudders to him. For me and the 21829 and BTS3100, it's no big deal by myself.

[Hdale85]

Well when I move and buy a house I'll have a dedicated space for a shop which is why I've been considering a cabinet saw in my plans. I was recently looking at a Jet cabinet saw locally but my wife and I decided we wanted to move out of state so I decided to hold off on anymore large purchases until we move. For now I'm just building a plan.

[chasw98]

What's the cutting length and diameter on that pattern bit? Looks quite manly.

[JonMarsh]

Oh, it is a manly bit, for professional idiot at work on a closed course, do not attempt this at home. :W

It's a Whiteside 1-1/8" OD bearing 1-1/2" cutting length pattern bit. Yeah, it costs more than any of the drivers in the "cheap" version of this project. 8O

Does a great job cleaning out rough holes with a good pattern guide. Indispensable for this project, IMO.

A real Evil Twin sort of tool- I make him do all the work requiring that- requires good Force sense and steady nerves.

It's good being Supreme Chancellor and being able to delegate. :lol:

[---k---]

Oh I don't know about that bit. I think this is manly:

Image not available

That's a 1 1/4" Roundover bit next to a 3/4" Roundover. Quite a monster to use. I really don't recommend doing this to make this. This was stupid on my part. Use a router table (like I do now).

Image not available

Image not available


(Actually your bit does look like it could do some serious damage.)

[JonMarsh]

(Actually your bit does look like it could do some serious damage.)

Yeah, it could, so I'm pretty careful with it.

That looks like a MLCS roundover bit- I have some MLCS 1-1/2" roundover bits I bought for a line array project I never built- now I may use them in an experimental port design, if I can make a good golden mean ellipsoid pattern. The trick that works for me is to just take a bit off at a time, and to keep the speed down.

I've got a Freud table, too, with a Bosch router and WoodPecker Quick-Lift for the bigger jobs and panel rabbiting.

This is another part of the Ardent work that the Whiteside rules- cleaningup the front sub panel midrange hole after I've done my worst with spiral up cut bit and jig saw! :W

[chasw98]

Boy, if you don't stop yakking and start working, the Chancellor will have your a**! How are you going to get any of these projects done?

[Dean100]

Boy, if you don't stop yakking and start working, the Chancellor will have your a**! How are you get any of these projects done?

He is getting up at 2-3 AM every morning in order to get everything done!

Jon- Going back to work might feel like a vacation after camp!

You efforts are appreciated ;x(

[dlneubec]

Very good suggestions from Bill.

One last point to think about is how mobile do you need to be? And how much help do you have? Traditionally designed power saws tend to be rather heavy for what they do- and are not a one person move. ThomasW's Delta Unisaw has sat in his basement since he bought it- the idea of moving it would probably bring shudders to him. For me and the 21829 and BTS3100, it's no big deal by myself.

I have the Sears version of the Ryobi also, but it is has the standard base, not on wheels. It is a tremendously flexible saw, easy to move and setup, cuts accurately, etc. I highly recommed it also. :T

[cjd]

Bamboo is an incredible material for many things. I actually really like the look of it finished - if I could source it locally I'd use that instead of standard ply I think..

[JonP]

Making great progress, Jon... Ah, the wonders of camp... Manly bits, fine holes... wait, that didn't come out right... 8O

Ahem... I was also liking that Bamboo board... wondering where you were getting yours?

[JonMarsh]

Got the LBL Bamboo from Rockler in Pleasant Hill. It's kind of spendy stuff, a 3/4" X 12" by 8 foot board was ~$130. :E

Cheaper than phenolic plate, another way I was thinking about stiffening up the front panel "launch zone". It was an unexpected "score", as they don't list it on their web site.

Yesterday I finished up a set of the inner mid front panel plates, and the "prime" outer front panels (for the Seas ER18RNX/Accuton CZ79-6/SS3004/662001); here's the backside of the outer front panels after chamfering.




Here's one of the prime outer front panels being glued to an inner panel, using another front sub panel as a clamping jig to protect the veneer on the outer front panel; this assembly will next go through the facet cutting process, which is why I also built the facet cutting jig yesterday.




Facet Jig plan:

[Hdale85]

Wow, looking very good!

[bigg]

Ardent SDX-2

Thanks Jon,

I like the idea of the table saw jig for the facets better than using a miter saw. I printed out your plan for the jig. Thanks again,
Gary ;x(

[---k---]

That looks like a MLCS roundover bit

;x( The man knows his bits.

[Evil Twin]

Thanks Jon,

I like the idea of the table saw jig for the facets better than using a miter saw. I printed out your plan for the jig. Thanks again,
Gary ;x(

When completed there will be full sets of PDFs for not only the main model, but all individual piece parts and the jigs/fixtures.

[savage25xtreme]

looks incredible... keep up the the great work Jon I am checking this post at least 3 times a day to see what you have updated :T

I have a feeling this post and the following website will go down in history as one of the best DIY designs and documentation ever! ;x( :amen:

Wish there was some way we could pay you back for all your hard work.

[krips]

Jon, am I correct in my conclusion that you're using constrained layers to damp the baffle? What exactly will the finished baffle be composed of when completed?

[ColoradoTom]

Got the LBL Bamboo from Rockler in Pleasant Hill. It's kind of spendy stuff, a 3/4" X 12" by 8 foot board was ~$130. :E

Cheaper than phenolic plate, another way I was thinking about stiffening up the front panel "launch zone". It was an unexpected "score", as they don't list it on their web site.

Yesterday I finished up a set of the inner mid front panel plates, and the "prime" outer front panels (for the Seas ER18RNX/Accuton CZ79-6/SS3004/662001); here's the backside of the outer front panels after chamfering.




Here's one of the prime outer front panels being glued to an inner panel, using another front sub panel as a clamping jig to protect the veneer on the outer front panel; this assembly will next go through the facet cutting process, which is why I also built the facet cutting jig yesterday.




Facet Jig plan:

HEY...... that jig looks vaguely familiar!! :rofl:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19193&page=4&pp=35

[ThomasW]

HEY...... that jig looks vaguely familiar!! :rofl:

He steals from the best.... :T

[JonMarsh]

Steal from the best, ignore the rest...

I assume we have full design and tooling cross licensing in place between your people and my people, Tom? :W

[JonMarsh]

Jon, am I correct in my conclusion that you're using constrained layers to damp the baffle? What exactly will the finished baffle be composed of when completed?

That's probably not a technically accurate way of describing what's going on here- usually that term is more applicable when one is using an intermediate material of viscous loss properties in a three layer sandwich, the constrained damping layer being internal. Here's a good description of that, though I expect you're quite familiar anyway.

What I'm trying out here is trying to improve the rigidity and stiffness of the basic "launch platform" for the drivers- by using this internal LBL layer, which like some hardwoods is MUCH stiffer than MDF, but because of it's properties as a manufactured wood product, is also not given to warping or distortion in the ways that solid woods may be. The LBL layer is in the surface of a front panel that will total 4-1/4" in thickness. It will be more obvious when a hidden line drawing is posted.



As you may be aware, some modern loudspeakers (of the expensive sort) are often made of less conventional materials, such as phenolic sheet (Wilson Audio), Aluminum (Magico, YG Acoustics), or synthetic composites (Hansen, Rockport); these manufacturers believe that an inherently very stiff and dead launch platform is needed to get the best performance in dynamics and microdynamic without coloring the sound (not absorbing energy from the speaker, and not radiating energy into the room).

Obviously a controlled experiment would be needed to see if this "really" works, but not having that kind of time, and having done some simple tests, for the "prime" set of these I elected to try this out. The pair being built with RS180, RS100, and 27TBFCG won't have this construction.

[Bear]

So, at $130 for not quite 8 bd/ft, how does the LBL compare to a more traditional BB Ply?

[ColoradoTom]

Steal from the best, ignore the rest...

I assume we have full design and tooling cross licensing in place between your people and my people, Tom? :W

Let's see.... you both design, prototype, build, measure and modify......... I borrow everything you've done and build a jig (which I'm sure someone has probably done before)......... Sounds like we're even to me!! :rofl:

Tom

[JonMarsh]

So, at $130 for not quite 8 bd/ft, how does the LBL compare to a more traditional BB Ply?

Uh, it's a bit more expensive? :W

[ColoradoTom]

So, at $130 for not quite 8 bd/ft, how does the LBL compare to a more traditional BB Ply?

You know Bear I was thinking the same thing. That comes out to ~16.00 a board foot. At that price I could I could "rip and rotate" some ash/cherry/maple/or oak stock and glue up the pieces with epoxy attach a facing front and back of mdf and still come out ahead! 8O

Tom

[JonMarsh]

You know Bear I was thinking the same thing. That comes out to ~16.00 a board foot. At that price I could I could "rip and rotate" some ash/cherry/maple/or oak stock and glue up the pieces with epoxy attach a facing front and back of mdf and still come out ahead! 8O

Tom

When can I place my order? :W

Seriously, having worked with BB ply a bit, I have to rate this as well ahead on some material properties- one reason it's sold as high end flooring.

Besides, every now and then I have to do something strange and inexplicable besides mutter about 1.21 jigawatts....