Ardent Speaker Camp

[JonMarsh]

Will you be showing how to build the jigs in the website for these? Might be a valuable tool for many. I haven't done much jig building but I've been collecting tools recently and a table saw is high up on my list Thinking about the new Rigid with the granite top that's almost a cabinet saw.

Can't wait to see more as this project progresses that's for sure.

Yes, the fixtures/jigs needed will have complete drawings; generally the construction of those parts is pretty obvious, no challenge- today I'm doing the midrange rebate fixtures among other things.

Yes, 5AM in the morning, and it's time to unclamp some front sub panel assemblies, glue and clamp up some new ones, change the drying paper on the veneer, milk the cows, and get ready for breakfast!!!

It's Speaker Camp!!

[Rolex]

Problem with granite topped saws is the tracks for the miter gauge chip and breakout since the stone is so brittle...

I agree with this.

[AlanH]

RIDGID Table Saw

Hmm haven't read that anywhere. I'll have to read up more. It's one of the several I've been looking at though. There is a used Jet cabinet saw for sale locally for 600 bucks that I've been considering as well.

FWIW I recently picked up the 'old' version of the marble-top saw, which has a cast iron top and cast iron wings (model number TS3660). Home Depot is closing them out to make room for the granite version. While their website doesn't list the the TS3660 anymore, I found it at my local store and at the blowout price of $299.

[Hdale85]

Well I don't want to clutter up this thread with talk of saws So lets leave it at this, I've been looking at several possibilities. The Granite Hybrid was actually not at the top of my list. I would actually like to get a cabinet saw like the used Jet that's available. But I've got a few months till I'll be purchasing a saw so I have plenty of time to research some more.

[JonMarsh]

What fun..... this should be in final stages just about the time I'm ready to start a new project. I was going to redo my M8ta's but I might put that on hold to see how this develops. I was just commissioned to do a bedroom set (cloning a Thos. Moser design) that should be done by late July/early August. If I make three of these with the two M8ta's and add the eight Aurasound 12" subs I might be able to have a pretty decent surround setup :rofl:

Tom

It ought to get you by in a pinch, you know, until you have your "good" system figured out...

BTW, I am planning a CC speaker with the C79 to possibly use with these- might use some other woofers I have on hand, but the C79/6 mid and probably a small form factor SSS tweeter- there's several nice new ones to choose from. Of course, I have an older SS neo pair, too- suppose I should use those?

Are you going to take some pics you can share of the bedroom set you're cloning? I love the work that you've shown us so far. Wish it was possible to make a living doing stuff like that.

~Jon

[HareBrained]

For the love of ... ! Will you guys stop posting mamby-pamby stuff and start working and snapping some photos?!?!? This is a vicarious living experience for me and right now, it's like watching a guy watching his grass grow. Get back to work and make me feel like I'm not living my life to it's fullest.

[Evil Twin]

For the love of ... ! Will you guys stop posting mamby-pamby stuff and start working and snapping some photos?!?!? This is a vicarious living experience for me and right now, it's like watching a guy watching his grass grow. Get back to work and make me feel like I'm not living my life to it's fullest.

Apparently our aptly named forum participant has never attended the "Yoda Summer Camp for Padawan Jedis"

Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!

-Yoda

Perhaps these action packed shots of final veneer sorting and drying




And clamping a top front sub panel set between the two rear subpanels (used to distribute the clamping force) will satiate your need for vicarious living...




There is much detail work of little photographic interest in a project like this...

[ColoradoTom]

It ought to get you by in a pinch, you know, until you have your "good" system figured out...

BTW, I am planning a CC speaker with the C79 to possibly use with these- might use some other woofers I have on hand, but the C79/6 mid and probably a small form factor SSS tweeter- there's several nice new ones to choose from. Of course, I have an older SS neo pair, too- suppose I should use those?

Are you going to take some pics you can share of the bedroom set you're cloning? I love the work that you've shown us so far. Wish it was possible to make a living doing stuff like that.

~Jon

My wife decided that the doors on the original entertainment center were a little too plain - here's an updated view that really looks better in real life. Attached are the bed and dresser that I'm cloning.... I'll change the headboard to something more visually unique... still working on ideas. Keep up the good work at camp!!!

Tom

[Face]

At this point the intent is a more neutral presentation, and Jantzen Z-Superior on the midrange and the Deulund VSF on the top is the configuration in planning. Your recommendations are well thought out; in the end the choices do depend on the final goals. Because of the wide range and origin of music this project will be used with, I believe a more neutral presentation may be the most beneficial; were I only listening to classical or acoustic jazz, then an "audiophile" approach with silver and MR caps might be interesting- how do you see the tradeoffs between "neutral" and forward in the capacitor presentation which you have tried?

IMO, the trade offs can be some sheen with MR's or a smaller(normalish) soundstage with VSF's.

Paired with the right gear and drivers, MR's can really work well. IMO, with my Cambridge 840C, MR's are a little too forward. But when a friend brought his Marantz S15S1 over, everything sounded right just. So I went out and ordered a S15S2 last week. ops: But that wasn't the only reason why.

I had a blind test with a friend a few weeks back. We compared Solen, Mundorf S/O, Duelund copper VSF's, MR's, and maybe one or two other brands. All the caps were broken in from other speakers I've owned. The MR's really stood out from the rest, the soundstage was much larger and images better defined. The center image stretches to only a couple feet from my ceiling, as the performer was on stage in my living room. As for the rest of the caps(including Duelund), the soundstage size was normal(barely above and between the speakers). IMO, the only thing VSF's have on MR's is tonality. They're the most natural sounding caps that I've heard, but with Obbligato not very far behind. I have a pair of CAST's on order, but I heard the wait can be 2 months, sometimes even longer in the summer(damn holidays). That will make an interesting comparison.

[Evil Twin]

IMO, the trade offs can be some sheen with MR's or a smaller(normalish) soundstage with VSF's.

Paired with the right gear and drivers, MR's can really work well. IMO, with my Cambridge 840C, MR's are a little too forward. But when a friend brought his Marantz S15S1 over, everything sounded right just. So I went out and ordered a S15S2 last week. ops: But that wasn't the only reason why.

I had a blind test with a friend a few weeks back. We compared Solen, Mundorf S/O, Duelund copper VSF's, MR's, and maybe one or two other brands. All the caps were broken in from other speakers I've owned. The MR's really stood out from the rest, the soundstage was much larger and images better defined. The center image stretches to only a couple feet from my ceiling, as the performer was on stage in my living room. As for the rest of the caps(including Duelund), the soundstage size was normal(barely above and between the speakers). IMO, the only thing VSF's have on MR's is tonality. They're the most natural sounding caps that I've heard, but with Obbligato not very far behind. I have a pair of CAST's on order, but I heard the wait can be 2 months, sometimes even longer in the summer(damn holidays). That will make an interesting comparison.

Interesting... most interesting. Thank you for contributing your listening experience, particularly the sound stage comments. That is likely to sway me in choosing the parts for my first evaluations.

Of course, component matching and synergy becomes somthing of a rather important issue once you reach the system and components you're describing. I have a Marantz SA-11 myself, which is not particularly known for large sound staging, but which does have an exceptionally un-solidstate like midrange and sense of intimacy. From your description, I think it's possible the MR's would work well with the Marantz as well as my CD DAC, a PS Audio DL III. But then that part of the system will be in flux this year- two or three other possible acquisitions are in consideration.

[JonMarsh]

My wife decided that the doors on the original entertainment center were a little too plain - here's an updated view that really looks better in real life. Attached are the bed and dresser that I'm cloning.... I'll change the headboard to something more visually unique... still working on ideas. Keep up the good work at camp!!!

Tom

Yes, I expect only a picture with a little more color resolution and size would begin to do justice to your work, Tom! Maybe in October I can see it first hand if things work out.

I'm working like a farmer at this speaker camp thing- dawn to dusk!
:rofl:

Or was it supposed to be dusk to dawn? Oh, that's how vampires work, not farmers... :lol:

[Hdale85]

Don't you get up before dawn? :B

[cjd]

Don't you get up before dawn? :B

Who is this Dawn?

[ColoradoTom]

Yes, I expect only a picture with a little more color resolution and size would begin to do justice to your work, Tom! Maybe in October I can see it first hand if things work out.

I'm working like a farmer at this speaker camp thing- dawn to dusk!
:rofl:

Or was it supposed to be dusk to dawn? Oh, that's how vampires work, not farmers... :lol:

Well.... you and Thomas have an open invatation.

Dusk to dawn, dawn to dusk...... in my house we just say 24/7. Since my day job requires me to be in front of a computer screen much of the time I'd probably look like a vampire if my shop wasn't on wheels. As it is, I get to enjoy the Colorado sunshine while I'm woodworking..... at least until those afternoon thunderstorms roll in.

The nice thing about the furniture making is that just about everything applies to speaker cabinet making. Several tricks I've learned over the past couple of months will most likely be incorporated into the next speaker build.

Tom

[HareBrained]

I guess I was wrong. I'm not watch a guy watching his grass grow. I'm watching a guy watching his glue dry. :rofl:

Why don't you post some "action" shots of you guys drinking some beers or something? :roll:

BTW, I still love the thread and look forward to hearing impressions about the final products.

[JonMarsh]

Beers + precision woodworking and veneering don't mix well - but for the after action report, why not?

I'll add beer (German of course) to the shopping list, along with more veneer softener and oak for fixtures. Sounds like a good idea....

More later today. :W

[Hdale85]

Will you be cutting the facets in the baffle before attaching it to the cabinet? Or is it required to attach them first and then cut the facets? I can't imagine having the entire cabinet up in the air to cut them. In fact I don't think it would be much possible at all considering the weight your cabinets for these faceted speakers end up being.

[CraigJ]

Why don't you post some "action" shots of you guys drinking some beers or something? :roll:

Ya know,

I just can't quite see Evil Twin downing a brew or two. Perhaps a sip of this:



Nope, definitely not beer. Enjoy camp, watch your fingers, and above all, don't do any heavy lifting; remember last time?

Craig
p.s. thanks for the pic Colorado Tom

[ColoradoTom]

Ya know,

I just can't quite see Evil Twin downing a brew or two. Perhaps a sip of this:



Nope, definitely not beer. Enjoy camp, watch your fingers, and above all, don't do any heavy lifting; remember last time?

Craig
p.s. thanks for the pic Colorado Tom

I bought a case of that wine and still have some left....perhaps I should send some back out to California for camp refreshments!

[JonMarsh]

Ya know,

I just can't quite see Evil Twin downing a brew or two. Perhaps a sip of this:



Nope, definitely not beer. Enjoy camp, watch your fingers, and above all, don't do any heavy lifting; remember last time?

Craig
p.s. thanks for the pic Colorado Tom

Especially I must avoid heavy dropping- took a while for that toe to recover!

[JonMarsh]

I bought a case of that wine and still have some left....perhaps I should send some back out to California for camp refreshments!

I really gotta, gotta, GOTTA have a bottle of that for the promotional pictures.... :W
:rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Will you be cutting the facets in the baffle before attaching it to the cabinet? Or is it required to attach them first and then cut the facets? I can't imagine having the entire cabinet up in the air to cut them. In fact I don't think it would be much possible at all considering the weight your cabinets for these faceted speakers end up being.

The front panel is the "heart" of the speaker; it is composed of three major sub panel assemblies, and of course, the facets and other features will be cut before attaching it to the rest of the cabinet, just like for the M8ta.

[Hdale85]

Ok thanks, sorry for all the moronic questions. Just been waiting a while for an M8TA style 3 way design from you so my curiosity has been stimulated.

[ColoradoTom]

I guess I was wrong. I'm not watch a guy watching his grass grow. I'm watching a guy watching his glue dry. :rofl:

Why don't you post some "action" shots of you guys drinking some beers or something? :roll:

BTW, I still love the thread and look forward to hearing impressions about the final products.

Pictures of camp for hairbrained

Rare picture of Jon and Evil Twin (out of costume) together.



Driver testing



Driver testing Power Source



Speaker Building Manual



Jon returning from beer run

[ColoradoTom]

I really gotta, gotta, GOTTA have a bottle of that for the promotional pictures.... :W
:rofl:

Consider it done..............

[savage25xtreme]

B double E double R U N

I would have volunteered for all the heavy lifting if had only known! Just think what a new guy to the hobby could have learned helping Jon at speaker camp.... 8O

[JonMarsh]

Consider it done..............

I mean, I just spent 15 minutes at lunch trying to find a slam dunk source for their Napa Valley Cabernet around where I live in the Tri-Valley area...

[JonMarsh]

How did you get hold of this?




This is the core power source for the new line of AragonX amplifiers I've been working on- the idea is to combine co-generation with class A power electronics, for a more "Ecco" effect; we can burn all the watts we want, because we always pump more back into the grid than we take out- Class A idle power of 100W (like the classic Palladium), with a fan cooling system that doubles as room airconditioning or heating, depending on the what the Wi-Fi connection to your "Smart Whole House Thermostat" reports is needed. The Mac OSX version is running slick slick as can be, with an iPhone or Ipod remote interface provided, but we've still got some recurring problems in the Vista and WIN7 versions that Ballmer keeps swearing are features, not bugs. It keeps Zuning out.

[ColoradoTom]

How did you get hold of this?




This is the core power source for the new line of AragonX amplifiers I've been working on- the idea is to combine co-generation with class A power electronics, for a more "Ecco" effect; we can burn all the watts we want, because we always pump more back into the grid than we take out- Class A idle power of 100W (like the classic Palladium), with a fan cooling system that doubles as room airconditioning or heating, depending on the what the Wi-Fi connection to your "Smart Whole House Thermostat" reports is needed. The Mac OSX version is running slick slick as can be, with an iPhone or Ipod remote interface provided, but we've still got some recurring problems in the Vista and WIN7 versions that Ballmer keeps swearing are features, not bugs. It keeps Zuning out.

Wife picked one up on vacation..... matches our coffee grinder.

[Evil Twin]

Critical Process test completed on Front Panel sub assembly

A process development milestone was complete at 3 AM this morning. The results were quite satisfactory, meeting all expectations- even the Supreme Chancellor is nodding quietly in approval, with a dark glint in his eyes.


This step was the first veneering of a sub-assembly which becomes part of the front panel.

The birdseye maple is chosen with a vertical seam book match symmetry, which requires a precision trim on the joining pieces.

The veneer is sandwiched between two fixture boards...




with a few mm exposed along the length;




The veneer is trimmed using a climbing cut edge trim with a variable speed router, in this case a Bosch Colt, set for "4" on the speed dial.

This produces a very clean cut in the veneer material with little tear out even with very close examination.





The veneer must be taped up using standard procedures with veneer tape to bind the seam and some cross pieces to aid in holding it together while handling for placement on the glue prepared substrate.




Spreading the correct thickness of glue is critical; usage of a high density foam roller simplifies getting a finished glue thickness about like that one good coat of latex paint- a pencil mark on the veneer below should be just visible through the translucent glue.




Here, the taped veneer sheet has been laid on the prepped front panel sub-assembly board.





After removal from the carbonite enhanced clamping assembly, the results are fully as expected,




...and speak for themselves, within the limits of this crude photography and transmission system on your primitive portion of the Holonet.

[cjd]

You're making me think about taking a "build vacation"

What without any guarantee that we'll both be employed (er... starting next week-ish maybe even), no-travel relaxation sounds pretty good. Though I'm not sure it would be cheaper doing a speaker-camp... :B

Looking excellent so far. You have luck using un-backed veneer with the PVA glue process (hot, I presume? Or do you set this wet?)

My sister's new place, if it works out, will be the third floor of an old mill. Big space. Needs speakers that can appropriately render the classical music she'll be teaching. ...

[Evil Twin]

Yes, a speaker camp can be quite draining of the Imperial Treasury- as the Supreme Chancellor has found out this year. Tools and materials are not inconsequential, though there are many sales to be taken advantage of.

This new effort is a cold press process with Sauers and Company unbacked veneer- component sub assemblies are used as clamping jigs to reduce expense. So far, the results seem satisfactory and appear that it will fit the planned fabrication flow.

Ahh, so you have a worthwhile commission or concept to fulfill... excellent- most excellent. What instruments does your sister teach?

[augerpro]

Gorgeous! Gives me the itch to do some veneer work on my next projects. So what are the pros and cons versus the hot iron on method? Less shrinkage, or just slower? I only did it once but my seems did pull apart a bit with the hot iron. Don't think I taped them before hand though.

[ColoradoTom]

Hey.... looks like you're getting close to being ready to start working with burl and a vacuum bag!!

[JonMarsh]

Gorgeous! Gives me the itch to do some veneer work on my next projects. So what are the pros and cons versus the hot iron on method? Less shrinkage, or just slower? I only did it once but my seems did pull apart a bit with the hot iron. Don't think I taped them before hand though.

Veneering is a complicated and sometimes controversial topic, as there are many techniques and advocates for those techniques and adhesives.

I've used the hot iron/PVA reactivation method with good results in the past, mostly with paper backed veneer.

For this project, with the selection and type of veneers available and the look I wanted, there was no substitute for solid wood veneer. There are numerous techniques people use with it, including hot iron, (more difficult IMO because of the lack of the backing to stabilize it, and the thicker wood), cold press, and vacuum bag press, with many types of glue, such as traditional PVA glues, or urea resins such as Unibond 800.

The most important point is probably to research any given technique you're considering thoroughly, and be a bit anal/OCD about the implementation, if you're looking for pleasing results.

I've been to several DIY's where the majority of hobbyist veneered cabinets were disasters- not even adhered flat. There are many ways to screw it up, fewer ways to do a good job- but especially these days, there are so many useful resources to research online, it shouldn't be hard to figure out a way that you think is manageable.

We'll describe what is done with this project in detail (assuming it all works!) on the web site being developed- this is not a "build thread", and I don't plan to do a "build" thread- it is too clumsy and awkward a way to put together this level of information.

[cjd]

Ahh, so you have a worthwhile commission or concept to fulfill... excellent- most excellent. What instruments does your sister teach?

More like, a place to put some of the speakers since I don't have room myself!

I believe she'll be mostly teaching violin. We both started that quite young (I asked to play when I was two, and she started "copying big brother" when she was about 2 also and began getting the last few minutes of my lessons... then her own lessons.) We're kind-of hoping she auditions with the MSO but I'm not sure if that's in the plans.

[Rolex]

The most important point is probably to research any given technique you're considering thoroughly, and be a bit anal/OCD about the implementation, if you're looking for pleasing results.

I've been to several DIY's where the majority of hobbyist veneered cabinets were disasters- not even adhered flat. There are many ways to screw it up, fewer ways to do a good job- but especially these days, there are so many useful resources to research online, it shouldn't be hard to figure out a way that you think is manageable.

We'll describe what is done with this project in detail (assuming it all works!) on the web site being developed- this is not a "build thread", and I don't plan to do a "build" thread- it is too clumsy and awkward a way to put together this level of information.

Experience is a good teacher. I'm thankful for all the failed attempts at veneering I've had. It makes the ones that turn out well, that much better. Truth be told, a lot of what I learned, I learned in my own shop, instead of a build thread. Don't get me wrong, there is a ton of good info out there, but when you screw it up with your own hands, and your own money, there are good lessons learned.

I'm really, really looking forward to the website you are putting together. I am very intrigued by this project..

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, experience and wisdom are most readily gained by making your own mistakes, not reading about those of others! :W

[ColoradoTom]

Yeah, experience and wisdom are most readily gained by making your own mistakes, not reading about those of others! :W

Jon..... something I noticed in your veeneer pictures above. It looks like you are attaching the veneer to a final mdf sheet in the front panel sub-assembly board that is about 1/4 inch thick. I've been veneering to 1/4 inch mdf first and then gluing the 1/4 inch veneered piece to the panel afterwards (I hope the makes sense). That way if there is a problem with the veneer I can fix it on the 1/4 inch sheet without the hassle of dealing with the entire panel. It also allows you to do some of the initial rough cutting of the panel without the veneer piece attach and lessens the possibility of damaging the veneer.

Just a thought.................

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, THAT reason occurred to me after getting the "base panel" laminated up- on the downside, I was concerned about the veneer warping the 1/4" panel.

The top section of my front panel (outward most) is a layup of 1/4" HDF around a 3/4" X 12" LBL plank (for the "premium version; the RS180 version is 3/4" MDF core). I need to be able to back chamfer, and decided I would do the driver routing and other preliminary detail work on this 1-1/4" assembly. Then it gets mated with the two under panel layers (both 1/1-2" MDF, composed of glued up 3/4" MDF), which have already had the driver pass through cut outs made. There's a step or two still somewhat in the air, which I'll be figuring out today.

Yesterday I got all the 12 front panel rips down to 10-1/2" done (the first working pieces are ~12" wide, 48" long), the sub panel pieces the original size are used as fixture pieces for clamping operations, including the veneering, or for "stands" for the workpiece undergoing clamping. Final dimensioning is two rips, one on each side. The web site and photos will make the concepts clearer. The rips went very well, I'm getting better than 1/32" accuracy and precision of repeated operations is even higher- those panels look like they were cut by CNC to the same exact width. Today I'm doing the 10 degree crosscuts to length, and starting on the driver rebates and holes- and finishing two more fixtures.

BTW, the Forrest Woodworker II ATB blade I bought for the ripping work has been worth every penny- I've got my setup nailed, and even after multiple cuts in 1-1/2" MDF, the blade is barely warm.

As usual, I expect about 3-6 ah-Hahs! after everything is done about how I COULD have done it, instead of how I DID do it. Hopefully lessons learned will transfer forward to the next project.

This would have been a lot easier if I wasn't building the second pair at the same time for the low dollar driver configuration!!

[Rolex]

BTW, the Forrest Woodworker II ATB blade I bought for the ripping work has been worth every penny- I've got my setup nailed, and even after multiple cuts in 1-1/2" MDF, the blade is barely warm.

I can't say enough good things about the Forrest Woodworker II. I have two of the 10" 40 tooth combination blades. I also have the 8" stacked dado head. It is all I will use in my shop.

MDF tends to dull them quicker than most hardwood, however..

[cjd]

MDF is horrible to sawblades. I've been advised to buy good but cheap(er) think kerf blades - they gunk up and need attention so fast that the life and quality you get on the premium blades like the Forrest are just not worth it when you're dealing with MDF.

[ColoradoTom]

MDF is horrible to sawblades. I've been advised to buy good but cheap(er) think kerf blades - they gunk up and need attention so fast that the life and quality you get on the premium blades like the Forrest are just not worth it when you're dealing with MDF.

Yup... I do the same thing. I buy Freud blades when they are on sale or when I get gift certificates and use them for all the preliminary cuts. I only use my forrest blades for final cuts. BTW Forrst does a great (but a little pricey) job of sharpening your blades. I usually wait until I have two or three and then sent them off to them. Come back better than new for a bit more than 1/3rd the price.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

I'm with Tom- I do rough cuts (like these front subpanel cuts with a "cheap" blade in good shape, then my final cuts with my high performance blades. I've been shopping sales over the years, so these days I kind of have an embarrassment of riches.

That includes the Woodworker II 0.125" kerf ATB 40 tooth, a Woodworkker I 10" 60 tooth ATB 0.100 kerf blade, a Dewalt 80 tooth ultimate cross cut (unopened as yet); my "cheapo" 36 tooth Freud; a 90 tooth Rigid Titanium coated I've been saving for Coco bolo and Pau Ferro work, and an Amana TOol 60 tooth TCG blade with a 6 degree negative bevel for cutting aluminum and phenolic.

A also have a Ridge Carbide 8" Dado Master set that gives pretty good results.

[JonMarsh]

OK- status report- all of the 12 sub panel pieces for making the front panels for the "premium pair" and the "RS+Seas pair" have been ripped and 10 degree bevel crosscut to the final length, meeting planned precision and accuracy targets.

It takes a lot longer to build 4 of something than 2!! :roll:

It's now 106 out, :E and even the Imperial work safety rules say no more wood cutting outdoors in these temperatures. Besides, I have to get cleaned up and ready to take my daughter to dinner for her birthday. :B