Ardent Speaker Camp

[Hdale85]

Your schematic diagrams are a beautiful thing. Sure makes building a crossover much easier for the people not as familiar with electronics as some of us.

[kvardas]

Jon,

Great work! Would you recommend building these to replace the M8tas? Looking for another speaker project.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Kris,

Yeah, that's kind of what I've done- I think these have turned out pretty nice and the coming update with Illuminator woofers will be even better.

I'm giving serious thought to tearing down the Modula Xtreme and doing an Isis like speaker with the same tweeter. Partly because of how well these have turned out, and how much I like the Scanspeak Beo tweeter. Of course, these can be built with either the Beo tweeter or the 6600 soft dome version- no crossover changes, the basic motor is the same.

I'm planning to pick up some phenolic for a jig to re-do the woofer openings (the SS are slightly larger than the Seas). I'm expecting some improvements in definition due to the underhung motor and converting to a sealed design with the SS Illuminators. We'll see if that works out- I've been very impressed with the sonics of the 8" and 10" SS aluminum woofers, but these 7's are a bit different design- we'll see if it pans out in practice!

These ARE something of a bear to build, and figuring out the build process wasn't trivial. That's why I think doing the web site and making a resource available is important. It's not a straight forward easy box build, like the Statements for example. But I think the cabinet integrity has it's benefits.

I'd like to update the M8ta to a three way design, but it will take a while to get around to that, and implementing it on built cabinets wouldn't be easy.

[JonMarsh]

Working at home today (work work, though, not fun work), though it's on a CLASS D evaluation system concept for our new 200V OptiMOS (yeah, an amp board will probably come out of this!). Expect to have a proof of concept in a week or two- just a 120 watt/channel @ 8 ohms with a single pair of FETs.

Also reviewing our new OBC system (On Board Charger) for Electric Vehicles; some of the power supply concepts should be adaptable to audio power amp supply (you probably can see where I'm going with this... The OBC is interesting, a water cooled 3.6 kW AC-DC supply, output at 350V for battery stack charging, using a high efficiency bridgeless resonant PFC concept we've patented, with our fast body diode 650V MOSFETs. I've got meetings in Detroit with regards to this SMPS later this month, and customer visits in the work.



And listening to the updated crossovers at the moment with Rite of Strings... very nice - Stanley Clarke's string bass hasn't sounded nearly so "there" on these speakers before. Still the 8008 Aragon amp, the front end is the Mac Mini with Fidelia player driving the Metric Halo LIO-8, direct into the Aragon.

Never heard a top end this clean and clear with an Aragon before.

[peepaj]

Jon, I was looking at the last schematic on page 36. It says that L7 is 12 mH, the schematic is showing 2x 8mH. Just wondering?

[ColoradoTom]

Hi Kris,

Yeah, that's kind of what I've done- I think these have turned out pretty nice and the coming update with Illuminator woofers will be even better.

I'm giving serious thought to tearing down the Modula Xtreme and doing an Isis like speaker with the same tweeter. Partly because of how well these have turned out, and how much I like the Scanspeak Beo tweeter. Of course, these can be built with either the Beo tweeter or the 6600 soft dome version- no crossover changes, the basic motor is the same.

I'm planning to pick up some phenolic for a jig to re-do the woofer openings (the SS are slightly larger than the Seas). I'm expecting some improvements in definition due to the underhung motor and converting to a sealed design with the SS Illuminators. We'll see if that works out- I've been very impressed with the sonics of the 8" and 10" SS aluminum woofers, but these 7's are a bit different design- we'll see if it pans out in practice!

These ARE something of a bear to build, and figuring out the build process wasn't trivial. That's why I think doing the web site and making a resource available is important. It's not a straight forward easy box build, like the Statements for example. But I think the cabinet integrity has it's benefits.

I'd like to update the M8ta to a three way design, but it will take a while to get around to that, and implementing it on built cabinets wouldn't be easy.

Geee, I loved everything in this post................. right up to that last sentence. :cry:

Getting ready to "redo/refinish" my M8ta's in cherry over the next couple of weeks.
... if the frigging wind ever dies down in Colorado!!!

Tom

[CraigJ]

Hi
I'm giving serious thought to tearing down the Modula Xtreme and doing an Isis like speaker with the same tweeter.

Jon,

Did you ever get a chance to sketch the top section of the "Isis like" speaker? If my memory is correct, I believe that you had the M12ta bottom section somewhat completed, for that time period anyway (yes, things always change).

Thanks,

Craig

[---k---]

I'm giving serious thought to tearing down the Modula Xtreme and doing an Isis like speaker with the same tweeter.

Waveguide or no Waveguide?

[CraigJ]

I was thinking this:



Top design not shown yet. Thomas has a nice Raal that would fit on top (hint, hint).

Cj

[JonMarsh]

Geee, I loved everything in this post................. right up to that last sentence. :cry:

Getting ready to "redo/refinish" my M8ta's in cherry over the next couple of weeks.
... if the frigging wind ever dies down in Colorado!!!

Tom

I said "wouldn't be easy", not impossible! It's still planned...

[JonMarsh]

I was thinking this:



Top design not shown yet. Thomas has a nice Raal that would fit on top (hint, hint).

Cj

Point taken- some flexibility in cabinet layout. I haven't tested the Raal's, but it's in interesting idea. Tenrptatively calling this system the Deathstar- will use outboard subs, too. Acoustic design optimized for 3 rd order interface to deep subs. The general outline is as above- dual 10" SS for the midwoofers, still using the flux capacitor bass tuning- with a separate crossover chamber in the base. Probably locate the Mid and HF crossover up top. Still thinking about a removable top module to keep the total weight of any one piece (and complexity) down. Pondering how to do that and get good cabinet locking without having ridiculous assembly precision requirements.

Not planning on this being a waveguide- but have a couple of new ideas i'm kicking around for a performance upgrade of the NatalieP which will be waveguide, depending on how some upcoming tests workout.

Think of it as a NataleP-FE. Force Enhanced. Not a budget system, but with a clear derivative pedigree- an aluminum woofer MTM with same "seamless" NatalieP style crossover. Waveguide tweeter with lowish crossover point and high power handling. not quite as small as standard NatalieP, but not ginormous, either. Ardent style build quality, but not as difficult. Have all the drivers... Will finish Ardent update first. Will probably do the NatalieP-FE next, then the big system build. THAT will be quite an undertaking- I need to put some thought into it, to see how I can make it a bit more manageable to build than the Ardents. If possible.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, I was looking at the last schematic on page 36. It says that L7 is 12 mH, the schematic is showing 2x 8mH. Just wondering?

Thanks for the catch, the schematic showing 2x 8 mH for 16 mH total is correct. There are other differences with the LspCAD schematic, too, which is why it's not a build reference.

I will be creating a working BOM for this soon with component recommendations.

[Bear]

Still thinking about a removable top module to keep the total weight of any one piece (and complexity) down. Pondering how to do that and get good cabinet locking without having ridiculous assembly precision requirements.

One question is what level of precision is required/to be avoided. I suspect aesthetic and resonant considerations are also key concerns. Aside from the usual suspects like dowels and other standard woodworking joinery (Festool Domino mortise/tenon joints anyone?), some other thoughts in the category of, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to see someone else try this":

A cam clamp would only require one through hole in each cabinet, while giving a relatively solid connection and easy disconnection.



You could also go for an enormous number (call it 50) of the small neodymium grill magnets. Put half in the base with one polarity and half in the head unit with the other polarity. Of course, one could cheat and just embed a steel plate in the top of the base unit, but that's less cool than having both units magnetized!

Just thinking out loud here...

[ColoradoTom]

I said "wouldn't be easy", not impossible! It's still planned...

Well there you go.... ask and ye shall receive> :B

Tom

[Beau]

Interesting design:

[Beau]

Thought you might like to see my (unfinished) efforts. They have been in the making for nearly two years, Baby came along and slowed things just a little...

Drivers are D2608 in MCM waveguide, Accuton c173n-t6-90, and Ae AV10H woofers, loaded by dual 15" pr's.

Originally the woofers were to be the Scan buyouts that were at Madisound but silly me let everyone else know first and by the time I ordered them they only had 3 left, DOH!!!

Anyways, a bit more bracing to go in and the wg's to be trimmed and they will be ready to go.

Cheers Beau.

[Beau]

Forgot to add, You cant really see it in the pics but the lower portion slopes back by about 10deg, then meets the vertical MT section.

Dont even get me started on how painful it was to do a tapered, cuvred and angled chamfer!

[Face]

Very nice!

[JonMarsh]

Great looking cabinets, Beau- I certainly understand how life get's in the way of DIY endeavors! I'm torn between "diversifying" my personal life (which has gotten much more complex since last fall) and making progress on the projects, which are also dear to my heart. And of course, things are so busy at work, and even with two open reqs I'm involved with for hiring, we're having trouble finding people with the right background and skill sets, even when considering PhD's. Don't know how that's going to work out, in the mean time, good job security.

Hope you have some progress to report some day soon on those speakers!

[Renovator]

Think of it as a NataleP-FE. Force Enhanced. Not a budget system, but with a clear derivative pedigree- an aluminum woofer MTM with same "seamless" NatalieP style crossover. Waveguide tweeter with lowish crossover point and high power handling. not quite as small as standard NatalieP, but not ginormous, either. Ardent style build quality, but not as difficult. Have all the drivers... Will finish Ardent update first. Will probably do the NatalieP-FE next, then the big system build. THAT will be quite an undertaking- I need to put some thought into it, to see how I can make it a bit more manageable to build than the Ardents. If possible.

Sounds interesting!
Have been hooked on this site since I found this thread around the time of one of the "Speaker Camps" when I thought I'd blown my mains. (remember "Time and Space" from years back) - fortunately found it was a failing CD player that was responsible.

Have a small build in progress, but have also spent a lot of time here looking at options as I now have this "need" (that's gotta be someone's fault, right?) to build something a bit more serious - figure a rework of the NatP might be an interesting place to start (and I can afford to wait - I've noted how busy you are! 8O - and I assume not so $$ as the Ardents, which would be great as the price of parts seems to treble by the time I get them here :M )

Will keep watching to see what happens next.

Thanks for the entertainment and inspiration.
Lewis


PS - Nice build, Beau

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, Lewis, I hate to think what guys like you and Beau pay for drivers by the time they get to your part of the world- I've never gotten any further than Singapore personally, but Australia and New Zealand are on my "must do" list.

[Hank]

...then the big system build.

Could it be? Is he actually going to? Will it happen? THE BIG LINE ARRAY? :gossip:

[wkhanna]

Beau,

Those are true art.

Absolutley Beautiful!

[Beau]

Thanks Bill,

Fortunately my wife is very tolerant of monkey coffins in the living room, its actually me who wonders if they are too big!

As for shipping for the drivers, the tweets and mids are pretty good, almost lineball with US prices, and probably even better with the AU to US exchange rate(or is that the Peso now?)

The killer is the woofer shipping, especially when they turn up 3 months late with the wrong colour cones, but I wont go into that.

Jon, you gotta get down here, great scenery and touring but I have to say our Kiwi cousins really have something to brag about there (our wine is still better)

Hope to get some work done on the cabs this weekend, enough thread highjacking from me.

Beau

[cjd]

Fortunately my wife is very tolerant of monkey coffins in the living room, its actually me who wonders if they are too big!

Give it some time. I no longer think I have any big speakers in the house...

[ggetzoff]

Hi Kris,

I'm giving serious thought to tearing down the Modula Xtreme and doing an Isis like speaker with the same tweeter. Partly because of how well these have turned out, and how much I like the Scanspeak Beo tweeter. Of course, these can be built with either the Beo tweeter or the 6600 soft dome version- no crossover changes, the basic motor is the same.

What kind of financial support would you like to do an ISIS build??

I'm planning to pick up some phenolic for a jig to re-do the woofer openings (the SS are slightly larger than the Seas). I'm expecting some improvements in definition due to the underhung motor and converting to a sealed design with the SS Illuminators. We'll see if that works out- I've been very impressed with the sonics of the 8" and 10" SS aluminum woofers, but these 7's are a bit different design- we'll see if it pans out in practice!

You can make a router support out of BB with a half-lap joint, spanning it across the driver opening and mounted from the inside with counter-sunk screws.
I always blue tape all of my driver cutouts through veneer, never had tear-out with tape over the cut :T

[JonMarsh]

Well, in this case I just need to hog out the inner holes (woofer pass through) slightly, then use one of my rabbeting bit sets to open up the rebate slightly.

The original rebate diameter for the Seas ER18RNX was 3-9/16", or 7.125" or 181 mm. The original through hole diameter was 5.75" or 146 mm.

But for the 18wu_8747t00 we'll need a rebate of about 186 mm, or 7.35", a and through hole of 160 mm or about 6.3". A rebate width of 0.5" is workable.

So I'm making a fixture guide for the 6.3" through hole cut out using a guided bit (upper guide bearing) that will be clamped to the cabinet face, and using the rabbeting bit to cut out the rebate to the required OD for the 18wu_8747t00.

Just got out the table saw and some of my phenolic sheathed BB ply for that.

At the moment listening to "Raising Sand" in 24/96 on the Ardents- geez, I wonder why it sounds so much better than the CD in my car? :roll: :W :T

[peepaj]

Jon, you telling us that you haven't figured out how to mount them in your car yet or even better how about replacing the saddlebags on your bike.
Just kidding with you, love this thread and all the great work you are doing and sharing with everybody.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I'm just a slacker, haven't been thinking much about mobile audio.

Out on the patio making sawdust, er, that is, woofer hog out fixtures. Yeah, that's the technical term, I believe...

Found another CD I need to buy... not because of sonics, hopefully it will be OK.

But amazing guitar performance. My girl friend has the original release on vinyl... from the 60's. Heard it last night for the first time after dinner at her place.



I suspect this guy was an inspiration to Paco de Lucia; the amazing thing is, he's in his 80's, and still playing and recording.

Long out of print, the CD seems to go for about $60 used in good shape. I can see why after hearing the record, if you're into this kind of music.

[Beau]

Dinner?? Girlfriend??? Whats going on Jon? We dont religiously check the forum 38 times a day just to see that youve been spending time with some girl!!! Next you'll be wanting more than 2 hours sleep per night!

Get back to it, we want the plans for the Isiris v2 by tommorow. :T

[kvardas]

Avalon Time

anyone heard the Avalon Time speakers?

[JonMarsh]

Dinner?? Girlfriend??? Whats going on Jon? We dont religiously check the forum 38 times a day just to see that youve been spending time with some girl!!! Next you'll be wanting more than 2 hours sleep per night!

Get back to it, we want the plans for the Isiris v2 by tommorow. :T

Yeah, I'm probably shattering some stereotypes admitting to this kind of behavior recently on my part- a little bit of life balance, as it were!


Here's a link to an individual comment/review on Audiogon.

Avalon Time

Like a lot of things, this may say as much about the reviewer and their expectations. In general, his comments about the presentation being too polite is, IMO, partly a commentary on the Ayre DAC sound. I expect the presentation would be more involving in the sense this guy is looking for with something like the Berkeley Alpha DAC. But that might not be someone else's cup of tea- particularly not for classical- who knows?

Here's a real review from a Brit publication.

HiFi-Plus

I didn't list this review first, because the reviewer doesn't know his equipment- he describes the mid and tweeter as being from the Isis, which is NOT the case; the mid is the improved C79, the tweeter is the 1" Accuton diamond, while the Isis uses the 7" C173-T90 with the 1.2" Accuton diamond tweeter.

I've seen these on static display, but haven't heard them myself; from people I know who have, the comment is that they are similar to the Eidolon and Indra, but due to the LF design are more comfortable in larger rooms and playing louder. The price is a bit staggering for what you get, about $48K. That's where the Isis was introduced at originally, though now it goes for about $67K, I think.

[exojam]

Jon,

I see you mentioned litening to "Raising Sand" above. I am not sure if you listen to our like Alison with Unison Station or not but if you do they are going to be in concert in Cali in about 10 days. They are doing four shows there this month.

James

[JonMarsh]

Four shows, really? Yeah, I have pretty much all of their albums, James- fortunately many of them on SACD. I bet the tickets are all sold out--- and I'm going to be in Detroit and Raleigh Durham the latter part of this month. Figures.

[exojam]

Jon,

Below is a link that will take ou straight to the dates and locations. The Cali ones are right at the top.

I got seats for the Foxwoods show for my wife, daughter and myself. I am till bummed I did not take my daughter to the Raising Sand show my wife and I went to in Boston.

http://alisonkrauss.com/events

James

[ThomasW]

Long out of print, the CD seems to go for about $60 used in good shape.

http://www.jazzstore.com/store/produ...e-hall#5179819

[JonMarsh]

well, that's a lot better than what I found last Sunday!

Ordered and on the way...

[JonMarsh]

Mini speaker camp 2011- and it's hot as a pistol out...

Which means, better not to work outside on the patio!

Seriously, have a few days off to work, but the weather has flipped from a relatively cold damp spring to normal late August weather but in late June/early July. Can't win for losing.

I'm starting by taking ONE of the Ardent's apart and modifying the cabinet for the Scanspeak woofers- will fully redo this one and compare to the "reference" original. Hopefully that will help keep me honest...

One "blessing" from the hot weather is that I don't even want to go out on the scooter- it was 95 around here just at lunch time. Big high pressure sitting over the bay area, so no ocean breeze in the late afternoon/early evening- doesn't cool off much until after 10.

Let's see what we can get done in a few days...

[stevovee]

Do you have a guide anywhere of how you veneer the faceted surfaces on your speakers. I've done a lot of veneer work before but only on surfaces that meet other veneer surfaces perpendicular to each other making them easy to trim with a laminate trimmer or veneer saw....i'm curious how you do those excellent angled-or faceted surfaces

[---k---]

Oh Jon... your ambitions have no bounds. :T

[JonMarsh]

Do you have a guide anywhere of how you veneer the faceted surfaces on your speakers. I've done a lot of veneer work before but only on surfaces that meet other veneer surfaces perpendicular to each other making them easy to trim with a laminate trimmer or veneer saw....i'm curious how you do those excellent angled-or faceted surfaces

It's in preparation for the web site; documented everything as I went along. Definitely a voyage of discovery; the last time I did angled planes in speakers WITH veneering was about 1973. Because of the design, it was inherently simpler than this. And the first speakers I built with a colleague with faceted baffles more like this were only finished with a paint similar to truck bed liner; that was in the late 70's.

I would say that it is skilled labor; no quick easy tooling solution. Same problem at Avalon. (I have videos of their manufacturing processes.).

[JonMarsh]

Oh Jon... your ambitions have no bounds. :T

Crossing fingers- but I DID get lucky yesterday at Woodcraft- picked up a really nice piece of phenolic tool plate, just perfect for the job I need to do.

Now I gotta get busy before it warms up too much today! Get everything done that involved sawdust or phenolic dust outside ASAP!

I really want to get these wrapped and move on to the NHT Xds crossover build; will try those out at the girlfriend's.

[Jed]

A quick and easy way to enlarge woofer holes: Get some 1/4" MDF. Cut a circle using your jasper jig the same size as the existing opening of the woofer recess in exisiting baffle. Tack the circle in place with some hot glue in a few spots so when the new circle is routered, it won't fall out of place. Once the complete woofer recess is routered out, pull the 1/4" MDF circle out of the hole and reset the depth of the router to complete the job by freehand. I've had to do this a few times. Works perfectly every time.

[JonMarsh]

Good suggestion Jed.

My solution was a phenolic tooling plate (more stability than MDF for tooling, a little more re-usable, and besides, phenolic is cool... ) which I cut to the overall cabinet width, then routed a hole most of the way through that's the diameter of the new inner hole I need (that needed to be larger, too). Cut it out the plug the rest of the way with a saber saw and jig blade, then clean up the hole flush with an upper bearing follower bit.

Clamp that to the cabinet over the hole to be enlarged. Used the same upper bearing follower bit to use the plate hole as the guide, hog out the inner hole (taking some care here, it's LBL). Produces a very smooth accurate "through hole".

Remove "hog out fixture", then use a router setup with adjustable rabbeting bit bit to provide the needed enlarged rabbet recess for the woofer frame. Needed to enlarge both with the SS Illuminator.



No hot glue required; and those who know me know how much I love hot glue.. (actually, I do, EXCEPT for the batch/brand I got when building the Ardent Crossovers; it got hard and unsticky (first time ever), and I had to completely redo them. First time ever, but it was a different brand. Back to Arrow now.

[jackies]

After discussing the merits of the 6640 tweeter in the parallel thread, I decided to take a plunge and ordered a couple for my forthcoming überspeaker.
Then, I started reading this thread, and decided that it's got to be coincidental, that this speaker that Jon is building is rather similar to what I had in mind - except for the double woofer. Nice work!!!
:T
Here's what I have so far: