Ardent Speaker Camp

[JonMarsh]

maybe I should clarify, I meant an all black speaker follows ET motto

Yes, most definitely!

And with all the effort expended on veneering earlier this year, a simple black finish for a test box is mighty appealing!

Gotta be sure no one thinks I'm moving in on their territory, though! :B

[JonMarsh]

That's not too bad. It's the Tesla Coils you really have to be careful with. Give one a good spark and if it's pointed in the wrong direction - poof - there goes Toyko.

I see the 26W/12867T has an aluminum cone - very nice! It sounds quite similar to the 26W/8765-SE I'm using except for the low impedance which makes it especially suitable for wiring a pair in parallel which I'd guess you'll be doing.

Yeah, this "special" version of the 26W was rather fortuitous- easy paralleling with still relatively friendly amp load, T/S parameters exactly what I was looking for, and a nice price. Too bad there's only about 17 or so left as of this week.

[savage25xtreme]

Yeah, I've got my fingers crossed on the D2004/6020. Personally, I think Scanspeak is on a roll these days- some of that I relate to even more on the lower cost products they have, like the former HDS tweeter, now D2608. Five to seven years ago, there wasn't that much I liked in their lineup.

I'm really hoping that the Beo tweeters will control diaphragm resonance and distortion in the way that the Accuton diamond tweeters do- but at 1/5 the cost, of course! I may be a bit too optimistic, but we'll see.

I'm expecting similar distortion performance to the D3004/662000, but who knows... I wouldn't mind a bit less HD2! I'm going to be doing a lot of tweeter "shoot outs" the next couple of weeks!

To my untrained eye I thought the standard 6600 or 6620 aircirc had better off axis response, but that was just looking at the SS graphs. I am very much so anticipating ETs evaluation. :drool::drool::drool::drool:

[Face]

Yeah, this "special" version of the 26W was rather fortuitous- easy paralleling with still relatively friendly amp load, T/S parameters exactly what I was looking for, and a nice price. Too bad there's only about 13 or so left as of this week.

Fixed.

[ColoradoTom]

Surfacing.......

Jon.... your work schedule has worked out fine for me. I've been able to complete three more beds and I'm finishing up three nightstands as I type. My family has only two more projects left for me and then I can start back on speakers!! I giving away my M8ta's to a friend so I don't think I'll be refinishing them... I've got enought parts to build another pair which I will probably start in the next week or two. That should get me warmed up to build the Ardents.

You and ThomasW have a wonderful holiday season.

PS - ThomasW... if you need to borrow the Tascam DV-RA1000HD just let me know.

ColoradoTom

[JonMarsh]

Jon.... your work schedule has worked out fine for me. I've been able to complete three more beds and I'm finishing up three nightstands as I type. My family has only two more projects left for me and then I can start back on speakers!! I giving away my M8ta's to a friend so I don't think I'll be refinishing them... I've got enought parts to build another pair which I will probably start in the next week or two. That should get me warmed up to build the Ardents.

You and ThomasW have a wonderful holiday season.

PS - ThomasW... if you need to borrow the Tascam DV-RA1000HD just let me know.

ColoradoTom

Tom, I think you're a marvel of productivity! And I bet your family is really enjoying the fruits of your work!

Before you start your second set of M8ta's, let me know if you'd be interested in turning them into an M8ta-3i- Duelund style with RS52 midrange- I've started the crossover design for that myself and only need to remeasure the Excel woofers- others have been interested in that, too.

Thanks for the well wishes for the Holiday season, and all the best for you and your family!!

[ColoradoTom]

Tom, I think you're a marvel of productivity! And I bet your family is really enjoying the fruits of your work!

Before you start your second set of M8ta's, let me know if you'd be interested in turning them into an M8ta-3i- Duelund style with RS52 midrange- I've started the crossover design for that myself and only need to remeasure the Excel woofers- others have been interested in that, too.

Thanks for the well wishes for the Holiday season, and all the best for you and your family!!

Wow... doesn't look like you've been slacking either!! Yes.. I would be interested. Almost sounds like an Ardent mini-me.

My daughters love their beds (they were early Christmas presents)... my wife liked my second design so much she had me build two for the guest bedroom. All I need to do is build a dresser for the guest bedroom and an "intersecting curves" shelf for my oldest daughter and I'm done with house projects until next summer.

Tom

[Jonasz]

Tom, I think you're a marvel of productivity! And I bet your family is really enjoying the fruits of your work!

Before you start your second set of M8ta's, let me know if you'd be interested in turning them into an M8ta-3i- Duelund style with RS52 midrange- I've started the crossover design for that myself and only need to remeasure the Excel woofers- others have been interested in that, too.

Thanks for the well wishes for the Holiday season, and all the best for you and your family!!

Sounds interesting. Is that the W22 you're talking about? Wich tweeter are they pairing up with?

[JonMarsh]

Yes, the W22 Excel- this was the 8" two way M8ta we're talking about.

Well, at this point, for those already with M8ta with the Excel configuration, that would be the Millenium Excel tweeter- but I could probably do a version for the RS28 and I'd be inclined to do a version for the SS D2608, my current favorite budget tweeter. Any of those would be easy to work in.

[kvardas]

I'm at the edge of my seat...

[JonMarsh]

You and a couple of other people- I should make it official I suppose.... :W

Besides, what better way to break in a new Mac Pro than designing some more crossovers and speakers? LspCAD flies on this thing running Windows, even in Parallels.

[Bear]

You and a couple of other people- I should make it official I suppose.... :W

Besides, what better way to break in a new Mac Pro than designing some more crossovers and speakers? LspCAD flies on this thing running Windows, even in Parallels.

Oh, dear, lord! Isn't that like 6 designs?
- Finish the Ardents
- Unveil the LBL MTM thing
- Modula MT mk2
- NeoD mk2
- M8ta mk2

All that plus that mini bookshelf thing ET's working on. You know, the one that has dual subs and requires two cabinets? :E :T ;x(

[Jonasz]

Yes, the W22 Excel- this was the 8" two way M8ta we're talking about.

Well, at this point, for those already with M8ta with the Excel configuration, that would be the Millenium Excel tweeter- but I could probably do a version for the RS28 and I'd be inclined to do a version for the SS D2608, my current favorite budget tweeter. Any of those would be easy to work in.

If you make a RS28A version that would probably be my first boxed speakers since the Natalie P. Having all the drivers and a duelund design to go with them might just be too exciting not too build! :P

[JonMarsh]

I have all the measured data for the RS28a on that cabinet, so no problem including it in crossover options.

Yeah, any sane person looking at that list Bill compiled would be convinced I'm biting off much more than I can chew... especially as there's one more system not mentioned for which most of the major components have been purchased, and a major system at that, which will start prototyping and measurement next week. all of the drivers are on hand, and a fairly complete selection of crossover parts for three of those systems.

But the holidays are my best chance for making progress and having fun- I already have a "roadmap" of the grind I'm going to be on at work for the next five months (yeah, a detailed plan- I've never seen one of those last more than 3-5 weeks, but hope springs eternal in the heart of manager's hearts, I guess).

The Modula MT MkII front panels are cut, the waveguides milled, and fiberglass reinforcement of the waveguides in progress. I expect to be listening to them sometime Christmas day.

[kvardas]

Oh, dear, lord! Isn't that like 6 designs?
- Finish the Ardents
- Unveil the LBL MTM thing
- Modula MT mk2
- NeoD mk2
- M8ta mk2

All that plus that mini bookshelf thing ET's working on. You know, the one that has dual subs and requires two cabinets? :E :T ;x(

Perhaps the Sith Lord is having a say in Evil Twin's ambitious, albeit evil, agenda.

[Evil Twin]

Perhaps the Sith Lord is having a say in Evil Twin's ambitious, albeit evil, agenda.

An astute observation, Kris.

The Chancellor is not pleased with the slow progress to date on critical projects, and efforts have been undertaken to provide suitable "motivation" as needed to ensure redoubled efforts.

Of course, in a pragmatic approach to these issues, it has also been necessary to update both design and production tools- but in these difficult financial times, the Chancellor expects to see clear results from such investments as a new Mac Pro with software tools, an upgraded connection to the Holonet, and upgraded fabrication equipment.

If the expected efficiencies and productivity are not forthcoming, there is no doubt he will be sorely displeased... not a situation to be subject to.

In this spirit, certainly of the season, there will be a certain amount of coordination of design and production activities between Seinar Industries and Flux LLC.

With the power of the Force, everyone should benefit.

[---k---]

ET,
Not sure how you're going to accomplish all that. Maybe you should see about trading some of those spare drivers for a few droids that could assist you.

[---k---]

The Modula MT MkII front panels are cut, the waveguides milled, and fiberglass reinforcement of the waveguides in progress. I expect to be listening to them sometime Christmas day.

From the Modula MT thread:

And Hank, I promise, on a HUGE stack of Bibles, that this will be absolutely the LAST 7" two way I design...

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, well, see, it's really just a minor tweak on the Modula MT, so it's the MkII, so it's still the LAST 7" two way I designed... sort of. The woofer is different, but the box is the same size and the tuning quite similar, and it is a two way like the last one, though the tweeter is different and it's waveguide loaded- so the crossover isn't quite the same, well, OK, it's pretty much completely different, but it's still the LAST 7" two way I'm designing-- I'll always feel free to redesign it "slightly". :B

[Jed]

Yeah, well, see, it's really just a minor tweak on the Modula MT, so it's the MkII, so it's still the LAST 7" two way I designed... sort of. The woofer is different, but the box is the same size and the tuning quite similar, and it is a two way like the last one, though the tweeter is different and it's waveguide loaded- so the crossover isn't quite the same, well, OK, it's pretty much completely different, but it's still the LAST 7" two way I'm designing-- I'll always feel free to redesign it "slightly". :B

In this hobby there is no "last" speaker design. Happy Holiday, Jon. May Santa bless you with lots of new 7" drivers (for 3 ways of course)... hehe.

[JonMarsh]

In this hobby there is no "last" speaker design. Happy Holiday, Jon. May Santa bless you with lots of new 7" drivers (for 3 ways of course)... hehe.

Happy Holidays to you, too, Jed!

And yes, I PROMISE to only use any new 7" drivers in the new year in three way systems! Or four way! Are you going to get one of those Vifa 6-1/2's to test when they're in stock the end of January? I'm curious about it, but skeptical about Tymphany consistency and availability.



With luck, it's an ER18RNX equivalent (bamboo paper cone) and similar motor with a nicer back side. But my luck doesn't seem to hold out when I spend on impulse. :W

Besides, I'm branching out to 8's and 10's this year- figure I'm ready for the big stuff... :B

[TacoD]

There is indeed no last design . I also looked at the Vifa's but as with many new driver offers, I doubt if they do better than the already good sounding Scans/ Audiotechnology stuff I am using.

[Jed]

Are you going to get one of those Vifa 6-1/2's to test when they're in stock the end of January? I'm curious about it, but skeptical about Tymphany consistency and availability. But my luck doesn't seem to hold out when I spend on impulse. :W

I don't think you have to worry about Tymphany now that PE and Madisound are carrying their products. I have a hunch they have worked out the distribution issues and how the products are put together at the plants. But I guess time will only tell on that front.

As for the new Vifa drivers I'd love to get my hands on them, but the issue I've seen is the rather large spike in the response curves centered around 800hz-1200 hz-- depending on which driver you are looking at. Also they are not very sensitive and if I were to use them I'd want a pair in parallel and that just won't be happening given the already low impedance of one driver. The 5" Vifa was tested in Voice Coil magizine and the specs looked very good. They also tested the 8" (IIRC) version and it wasn't as symmetrical in the motor as the smaller brother.

One driver that I have had my eyes on is the new Seas U18 driver. It has a very linear response, phase plug, and the ER18's excellent motor (from what I can tell from the pdf). I also have a pair of the new Peerless 7" fiberglass composite drivers coming in for testing to use with the Scan Speak HDS tweeter (this tweeter is just awesome sounding).

I also continue my quest to find really high quality 4 inch mids to replace the W4-1337. I'm thinking about doing a high end version of the Lineup Maxx L16 with a quad of woofers. I really liked how the Lineup Maxx looks given its super slim profile. From a technical standpoint, I still like how a quad of woofers distribute the bass to lower midrange frequencies over a broader range to minimize floor and ceiling interference.

So like anything else, I get torn between simplicity, the notion of ultimate performance, cost, and aesthetics.

It's all good fun...

[JonMarsh]

You raise a lot of good points, Jed- and I'm in agreement with you about the SS HDS, I'm using it in several designs- it's a real sleeper, and on the whole I think I prefer it to the D3004/6620000 regardless of price- though the 3004 has lower 3rd order, the lower 2nd of the HDS gives it an audible edge in IM. Measurable, too, of course.

So like anything else, I get torn between simplicity, the notion of ultimate performance, cost, and aesthetics.

yes, the designer's life is complicated!!! I'm working on a little two way for the outlaws, trying to address all of those issues in a compact size- it will be a new small reference design for me if it works out, but the simplicity part may get left behind in the actual construction. The last parts for the crossovers should hit the dock today... have modeled a couple of interesting variants on it already, including a TMM with a wicket expensive crossover (well, wicked expensive unless you compare it to the Ardent).

And Ardent speaker camp will be in session this evening at least briefly, when I hope to set up to measure the SS Be tweeter under the same test conditions as the original D3004/662000 measurements.

Let us know if you find that ideal 1337s replacement- that's a tough call, I like the RS100-4, but that wouldn't work for what you and Jim Holtz/Curt do.

[igy137]

It's one of the Madisound specials- 26W/12867T. It's not for the Ardent, but for another project I've been collecting pieces for.

Is it a secret or can I ask what's going to be the midrange in this setup?

[JonMarsh]

Is it a secret or can I ask what's going to be the midrange in this setup?

The midrange is the Accuton C173N-T6-90.

The silly thing is I know with what's coming up at work, I won't have the time to build the cabinets the way I want to, so in the meantime I'm going to create a "rough" prototype using PE cabs, will probably call this the Modula Xtreme (trite, but appropriate). Those cabs are scheduled to hit the dock today, too.

Who knows, with a little mechanical reinforcement, they may work out OK.

[igy137]

The midrange is the Accuton C173N-T6-90.

The silly thing is I know with what's coming up at work, I won't have the time to build the cabinets the way I want to, so in the meantime I'm going to create a "rough" prototype using PE cabs, will probably call this the Modula Xtreme (trite, but appropriate). Those cabs are scheduled to hit the dock today, too.

Who knows, with a little mechanical reinforcement, they may work out OK.

Thanks, great to hear, since I just received my four 26w-12867t00 :-)
Seeing the new Accuton web page, I was wondering whether does it worth to wait and see while some distributor stocks c173-6-096e. Seems to be even cleaner around 800hz, though hard to see exactly from those graphs. Interestingly for a bass-midrange, as I see, it's worse below 200hz?... (sorry if this should rather go to that accuton thread - just thinking).

I guess you also try the Be tweeters for this speaker?

[Bear]

You raise a lot of good points, Jed- and I'm in agreement with you about the SS HDS, I'm using it in several designs- it's a real sleeper, and on the whole I think I prefer it to the D3004/6620000 regardless of price- though the 3004 has lower 3rd order, the lower 2nd of the HDS gives it an audible edge in IM. Measurable, too, of course.

It will definitely be interesting, then, to see how the Be tweeter using the Air Circ motor compares to the HDS. It sounds like may already be a tough call even before factoring in the price differential.

And Ardent speaker camp will be in session this evening at least briefly, when I hope to set up to measure the SS Be tweeter under the same test conditions as the original D3004/662000 measurements.

Can't wait!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, great to hear, since I just received my four 26w-12867t00 :-)
Seeing the new Accuton web page, I was wondering whether does it worth to wait and see while some distributor stocks c173-6-096e. Seems to be even cleaner around 800hz, though hard to see exactly from those graphs. Interestingly for a bass-midrange, as I see, it's worse below 200hz?... (sorry if this should rather go to that accuton thread - just thinking).

I guess you also try the Be tweeters for this speaker?

Well, I have a set of C30N just sitting around begging to be used, so that would be the expedient first choice based on minimum damage to the pocket book. But for a "final" version, the SS Be part would certainly be in the running, depending on how it tests out and sounds.

Accuton is almost as weird/inconsistent about measurement conditions as Seas (not using IB in many cases), so it's hard sometimes to draw reasonable conclusions from their published data, IMO. YMMV.

They have branched out with several variants of the original T6-90 that I have, the purpose and intent not always being completely clear to me- by specs, the biggest change for the 6-96E appears to be using a rubber instead of fabric surround, with about double the VAS, and lowering the resonance frequency to 39 Hz. That may be more like the custom Accuton used in the Kharma Mini Exquisite, though the quoted Qts is pretty low even for a ported system. And the sensitivity listed in the T/S parameters for the new one is, at best, somewhat disingenous- the sensitivity may peak at 94 dB in the 1200 Hz to 1800 Hz area, but it definitely appears down by 2-3 dB in the 100 Hz to 1 kHz area, where it rather more counts, IMO.





Me, I think I'll stick with door number 1 (the T6-90, first graph above).


I think you've got to watch these guys as closely as we do Scanspeak. :W

OTOH, I really am happy about the VASTLY improved web site. :B

[JonMarsh]

It will definitely be interesting, then, to see how the Be tweeter using the Air Circ motor compares to the HDS. It sounds like may already be a tough call even before factoring in the price differential.


Can't wait!

God, imagine how boring it would be if I ended up standardizing on a $70 tweeter for all my designs? Sheeesh!!

The Be really does look cool, though- I've got my fingers crossed! Otherwise, it's another expensive experiment! I already ran out of budget for those last year, so they'll have to count against my 2010 budget!

[---k---]

$70 tweeter. It's getting expensive to hang out here!

[CraigJ]

$70 tweeter. It's getting expensive to hang out here!

...and you didn't even mention the $614 midrange. :boozer:

Craig

[Bear]

...and you didn't even mention the $614 midrange. :boozer:

Just $552 in quantities of 10 or more! :T

[CraigJ]

Could this be the new Death Star? ;x(

[JonMarsh]

Basically, yes, using the new PE rapid prototyping system for development of Moudlar speakers- hence, Modula Xtreme.

Here's the test cabinet for the 10" woofer- one per cabinet, two per side, but mated together is the plan...





It's all dependent on the flux capacitor....

(and this is about the time when someone, such as the other moderator, starts making arrangements for an intervention.... )

[Johnloudb]

(and this is about the time when someone, such as the other moderator, starts making arrangements for an intervention.... )

Yeah, Jon I was just thinking about that. Not to put a damper on all these great new projects that you're starting, but, just wondering is the Ardent design done, with the final crossover? Or did I miss that post?

Maybe Thomas should put his death grip on you! Opps, sorry that's Evil Twin's Job.

[sdl2112]

And Ardent speaker camp will be in session this evening at least briefly, when I hope to set up to measure the SS Be tweeter under the same test conditions as the original D3004/662000 measurements.

Sorry....I couldn't resist... :W

[YOUTUBE]angi1vwUkQc[/YOUTUBE]

[Evil Twin]

Unfortunately Mr Marsh had to be diverted from his pleasant past times to more urgent tasks last evening. Be glad this hasn't happened to you also this Holiday season.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, Jon I was just thinking about that. Not to put a damper on all these great new projects that you're starting, but, just wondering is the Ardent design done, with the final crossover? Or did I miss that post?

Maybe Thomas should put his death grip on you! Opps, sorry that's Evil Twin's Job.

Guilty as charged, I need to finish veneering and do the final voicing on the Ardent- which may mean taking a week off from work later in the 1st quarter of the year- the chaos of the holidays seems to be working against devoting a big hunk of time to them, especially as there are many year end things I traditionally do, during the holiday break, including the equivalent of spring cleaning and IT upgrades (a new Mac Pro this year, been wanting that for a while but held out for the Nehalem version), and software installation on both OSX and Windows).

The small project is driven by a family need as well as stuff that's been sitting around in gestation for almost two years.

Excuses, excuses. Then there's some digital audio stuff I'm setting up to work on, hardware and software.

It's been a wacky year... 2010 should be interesting, even with no new ideas from this point on.

[Johnloudb]

Yeah, that's perfectly understandable, Jon. I was just wondering about the Ardent. I'd be happy just to finish anything, but got challenges myself, and keep getting distracted with other stuff.

[Jed]

Hey, at least we have our health. All this speaker building is good fun and all but we all know what really matters. Everything will get done in the end.... just takes time :-). Cheers to another good year at htguide.com.

Jed

[JonMarsh]

That's a good attitude to bring in the new year, Jed- thanks for all your contributions and insight at HT Guide, too- we certainly appreciate it!

And as Dr. Tihanji, the former head of development in our power semiconductor group in Munich used to always say, "Slow work takes time..."

Wish he was still with us, in both senses. I don't know what it is about the age 58, but it seems to be a problematic age for a lot of men. Another colleague I work with in the US passed similarly last year (just after Tim Russert), and the same age for one of my ex sister in law's husband a couple of years ago (the one who with her son is getting the new Modula MT MkII- they're the guinea pigs, so to speak).

Dangerous age, it seems... I'm going to make the most of it! :W

[Jed]

Another colleague I work with in the US passed ......
Dangerous age, it seems... I'm going to make the most of it! :W

Very sorry to hear about your friend, Jon. The rest of the "stuff" in life can wait. Just be well... and don't over-do-it. Slow and steady wins the race.

I should talk though, I came this close to getting a pair of the Be tweeters to try out a few days ago, but the standard air circs will have to suffice. Maybe tomorrow I'll snap a picture of some of the goodies I got ( ala "Marsh" style. :T ) for the New Year that will be going in various designs.

Some speaker close-ups go a long way to lift the spirit. Hey we all have our weaknesses!

Jed

[PhilDSP]

Dangerous age, it seems... I'm going to make the most of it! :W

Some years ago when I was searching the internet for a suitable 70 year birthday present for my uncle (Who was and still is in excellent health and spirits fortunately) I discovered that the bulk of medical problems occur before the age of 70 or even 65. After that it's often fairly smooth sailing. Maybe it's kind of like a car getting broken in.

[JonMarsh]

Tail end of the bath-tub curve for inherent defects or lifestyle issues?