Ardent Speaker Camp

[JonMarsh]

Interesting... I've got a message in to the web master- I'll see what comes back.

[Hdale85]

I used to be a MOD over there but it's been quite a while. I only go over there for the calibration/EQ/and DIY projector screen sections.

[PewterTA]

Any new News on the Ardent front!?

[dar47]

Any new News on the Ardent front!?

As I understand he is trying to bring the the Arvo Picente part to a workable point then he will be back on Ardent Scan version.

[JonMarsh]

As I understand he is trying to bring the the Arvo Picente part to a workable point then he will be back on Ardent Scan version.

+1

That's where we're at. Also, a fair amount of "research' into target response and psycho acoustics as realized for the Modula Xtreme will be updating the response target for the Ardent. Also for the Arvo Part Picante. These efforts aren't totally serial; that is, somethings have been going on in parallel. But then there's the day job...

Anyway, Hello from Raleigh-Duirham!

[PewterTA]

If only we could fund your Hobby to turn it into your Day Job!!!!!! Then that'd be the best of both worlds for everyone! ha ha.

I was just curious since I haven't been able to follow everything recently and when you try to read all the threads....well it gets all confusing exactly what you're working on!

Not complaining mind you! Just catching up!

Hope things are going well for you Jon!

[JonMarsh]

Status Update/Explanation

I'm posting this update due to the number of PM's and emails I've been getting recently.

I've probably been too much like Apple lately- things going on behind the seems, but not much public discussion for one reason or another. In my case, it's being stretched for time and wanting to work things out to a final configuration somewhat outside the "public eye".

There are complete cabinet construction plans for the "Gen 1" version with ER18RNX Seas woofers- to use the Scanspeak Illuminator, the rebates for the woofer and cut out holes in the front panels have to be enlarged to match the Illuminator woofers. I've done that on my cabinets; believe me, it's easier to do it during construction! I'll send anyone those plans if you're interested.

Now, the crossover is being updated, for two reasons. One, to accommodate the shift from Ported Seas driver to sealed Scanspeak drivers and adjust for the differences in response and impedance.

The second reason, of course, is to adjust the midrange and high frequency level, but what I'm doing in this design pass goes a little further than that, because of issues I was wrestling with in the voicing optimization of both the Ardents and the Modula Xtreme.

After a lot of external research, including going back and listening to commercial designs I like, (Quad, Avalon, Magneplanar, Peak Consult, Kharma) researching their measured data, and following up on Sigried Linkwitz's most recent Orion updates, I think I have a clear path to resolution. And it means not designing for flat axial response for stereo speakers, but for a rather specific contoured response based on how the human head affects hearing and the differences in perception at different angles; i.e., between how perceptual HF hearing is straight ahead, versus creating a phantom center image with sources off to an angle, and closer to an "optimum" HF position for the ear.

SL was fighting this same issue, unbeknownst to me until very recently (last two years have been a pluperfect bitch at work), so I found some strong correlation to what I was coming to believe in reviewing the evolution of the Orion from version 3 to 3.1 to 3.2 and 3.2.1.

Now I think I have the optimum acoustic target to shoot for, and that will be addressed after the upcoming round of business travel ending the middle of February. (yeah, it's a good thing I'm not married- my girlfriend is pretty independent but she's not exactly charmed by the uptick in travel this year ;-).

The net result when you get it right, and when you have a system well designed that does't "cloud up" the lower frequencies, is that a lower high frequency balance results in comfort and reduced fatigue listening to music at natural (i.e., equivalent to the original source) playback levels.

To give you some background on this, I've attached a few foils from a 2010 conference presentation SL gave. The particularly relevant foils are 9, 10, 11, and 12. I have the MP3's of the lecture, but they're too large to email for most accounts. I'll fill in some of the details later when I have time, but now I'm packing for travel!









Besides SL's work, this has been cross correlated with measured data for Quad ESL's, Peak Consult Dragon's, Magneplanars, and some Avalon models. This raises my confidence factor to a pretty high level, regarding the appropriate development target.

[Rudolf]

In the mastering session the engineer doesn't listen to the original musicians at 0°, but to stereo speakers at 30° (like we listeners). If he is well informed, he should know about the phenomenons mentioned by you and equalize for a flat response under stereo conditions.
Are we sure those mastering engineers are too lazy/misinformed/ignorant to do their job well? If not, we end in a double EQ which is no better than no EQ at all.

[JonMarsh]

Good point Rudolf, but in most mastering studios, the monitor response is rolled off like this above 2 kHz. Whether deliberately or not for explicitly this reason I can't tell you.

I'm following this on the existing and next projects, not because of theory, but because of a lot of testing and experimentation myself.

[JonMarsh]

Ardent related news and other things...

In the Ardent related news category, yesterday and today I finalized new hosting arrangements for putting up web site(s) and purchased some more software, towards getting a site launched covering the Ardent, Arvo Pärt Picanté and DeathStar. Also got some preliminary work done on the site design and implementation while sitting in Starbucks while my honey was doing some shopping for nick knacks and what not - it's amazing the supply of that kind of stuff they have around here! Hopefully the good intentions will keep some momentum going...

In other interesting developments, while over here it occurred to me to check the AudioPraise site and see about posting on their forum as promised- i wasn't able to complete the forum registration (I don't think it's automated), but did discover a very interesting new product from them, the Vanity93 board, which fits in an Oppo BD93, replacing the analog output board, and instead giving 8 channels of PCM output, including the conversion of DSD to either 88.2 or 176.4 kHz at either 16 or 24 bits. It's plug and play, no soldering or wiring, and has options for combining on the board, mixing down multiple DSD channels to a stereo pair. Well, that's interesting enough that I ordered an Oppo BD93 from Amazon today, should have it by Wednesday; if that comes through, I'll order the Vanity93 board next. If I read the material correctly, it will also output multi-channel PCM in S/PDIF format, which could be fed to a multi-channel DAC like my Metric Halo LIO-8. This could be very interesting... I'll report more if I can get this working. And as with the earlier Vanity board conversion, I should be able to "record" converted DSD to my Mac Pro through my RME Fireface.



Also heard a very nice live classical concert tonight in St. Climent's Cathedral, built in 1716 (yeah, a newbie). The acoustics didn't work for all the program, but for the slower pieces with pauses between some notes and the right kind of tempo, the results were sublime.

[dar47]

Glad your enjoying the much needed down time and hopefully you put your foot down in the future and not go so long without a break. Love the photo's and I'm getting very excited for the new web site.

[JonMarsh]

I'm pretty excited, too! And have put some more hours yesterday into the web site design- the first pass is coming along OK!

We're leaving for the airport in a few hours- all packed up already, just need to get breakfast now.

I've got about a bazillion photos to process in Lightroom 4, the little Sony NEX7 didn't do badly, but disappointed a bit in noise and lens quality; my Pentax was much better, but I didn't carry it often on the trail due to weight, but used it in the towns and here in Prague. Have to see how it all turns out- you can only tell so much with the limited color gamut of my MacBook Air. (though it is great for travel)

[TEK]

This is screen shot of the basic 3D model, though it's getting tweaked a tiny bit today, and I'm also preparing the grille frame design.




I'm building two pairs, two versions- the "premium" version, SDX-2i, with driver complement of 2-Seas ER189RNX, 1-Accuton C79/6, 1-Scanspeak D3004/662001; and the "budget" version SDX-2a with 2-RS180, 1-RS100-4, 1-Seas 27TBFCG; the midrange cut out will be the same for both, as the RS100-4 will be mounted on an aluminum panel of the same size as the Accuton frame, solving the rear masking issues of the RS100-4, and allowing future upgrades for the midrange.

Hi folks!
Could I ask what the current state of this design is?

[JonMarsh]

A version with the ER18RNX and D3004/6640 was completed; but I was not fully satisfied with it, due to the performance of the Seas woofers in a ported system.. One cabinet has been modified to use Scanspeak Illuminator woofers (aluminum cone versions) sealed. (after my developmental experience with the Modula Xtreme, leading to the Isiris, I've made a determination for myself that I prefer the definition of sealed systems, as regards the much tighter step response, and prefer to use them in designs moving forward. YMMV, tons of people doing ported designs out there, so it's not likely to be a problem for folks finding them if that's their preference. It's not mine, though I understand for small systems with limited driver swept area it may be thought to be a good tradeoff.)

Then I got hooked up with Michael from Singapore (who's moved to Chicago!) to develop an Isis like project. (Last year around February). Now I plan to completely redo the crossover on the Ardents based on what l'ved learned in the Isiris, which went back to the concept used for the NatalieP. (All pass style 3rd order, as if there was a LR3 alignment). That effort will start very soon, as the Isiris crossover is just about fixed, and the next step for them is cabinet finishing.


Also, many have asked about a lower cost version. I have some ideas about that, but most can't be retrofitted to the existing cabinet design because of differences in the frame layouts and driver spacing.

One idea is to retain the Accuton C79 midrange, as it is critical to a part of the spectrum the human ear is very sensitive to, and go with dual RS225-4 on the bottom end, with a couple of tweeter possibilities. Those liking hard domes such as the better ceramics, the Transducer labs N26 is a good choice, and I have several sets of those around.

To slash the budget even further, but still get smooth response and good 30 degree off axis behavior, the Seas H1280-6 is a possibility I'll be examining soon- some are on order to evaluate for use in a couple of possible system designs.





Of note is the extended 30 degree off axis response and the smooth overall behavior- now cross fingers and hope the distortion is reasonable for a three way at 2500 Hz.

Another promising tweeter candidate is this Neodymium SB Acoustics model:



Also very good dispersion, and rather high Xmax, and due to impedance level, a drop in for the network.

While I can fine other great 4-1/2" midranges fairly easily (like the SS 12MU/4731) the value proposition is not much better than for the C79.






$70 less per driver is something, but not all that much...

One dark horse candidate would be the Vifa NE149, but it's just not as well controlled in frequency response (according to their published data), especially at the critical 30 degree point. Curt and Jim have gotten good results with it in their Finalists project, so perhaps it's worth a closer look regardless of published data. But they do use a very low slope crossover point which means the tweeter is filling in with the midrange quite a bit all the way down to 1 kHz. I prefer not to do that.

I have some of these on hand, too. Spare time, not so much! :W





But at $123 per driver, it's much less expensive. Is it a viable competitor to the Scanspeak or Accuton for a budget approach? That will take a little more research. Remember, just getting the same approximate SPL response doesn't tell the whole listening story- linear and nonlinear distortion play a significant role in the perception of clarity and definition. Distortion tests help in assessing that, if you can do the right tests, but there's no substitute for listening, as after all, that is what these systems are built for!

[TEK]

Thanks Jon, great stuff.
If I understood you right, you were not pleased with the seas ported version. But you have also tried a version with 1-Accuton C79/6, 1-Scanspeak D3004/662001, 2 Scanspeak Illuminator woofers (18WU/8747T00 or 18WU/4747T00 I expect) sealed.

From what I understand you do have cabinet drawings available for the latter design - but you are working on upgrading the filter?
Ref your earlier post "Now, the crossover is being updated, for two reasons. One, to accommodate the shift from Ported Seas driver to sealed Scanspeak drivers and adjust for the differences in response and impedance.

The second reason, of course, is to adjust the midrange and high frequency level, but what I'm doing in this design pass goes a little further than that, because of issues I was wrestling with in the voicing optimization of both the Ardents and the Modula Xtreme."

I assume that this is still in the design phase?

I have not found any comment about your (or others) impression with the sealed Scanspeak drivers using the previous filter....

[JonMarsh]

I had done some listening as well as testing of the Scan's (actually two 8 ohm versions in parallel) with a hack job the low end of the crossover, and liked what i was hearing, but didn't have time to do a proper re-design. The sealed version does allow doing away with the woofer Fs zobel; on a ported version, that frequency of the upper impedance peak is high enough to interact with the filter network; with the sealed one, it's where the impedance minima normally is between the double impedance peaks, and for the most part doesn't create any problem with the LF filter network.

Also, most importantly, I'm now keen on a complete redesign based on using the All Pass 3rd order configuration like I've been using on the Isiris, which was first used on the NatlieP and original Modula MT. I'm finding this works nicely in a three way setup, with all drivers wired in positive phase, and because of the steeper roll off slope compared with the Duelund, I can usually drop the LCR filters otherwise required to smooth/tune the bumps out of the upper end of the Accuton Mids. Overall, lower component count, and I think very good sound, based on what I've heard with the Isiris, so far.

The Modula NeoD CC is going to shortly get the same treatment.

I've got enough measured data lying around to try the redesign on the Ardent in LspCAD this weekend. For the NeoD CC, I should wait for the new SB tweeters, though for now I could probably just use the old tweeter data for reference. My hopeful desire is to reduce component count in the crossover, improve measured response and power handling, and who knows, maybe the overall sonics? Might be a little wishful thinking there, but we'll see.

Part of why you're seeing sealed system designs out of me now is because of my experience with the Modula Xtreme and playing with one sealed Ardent cabinet. At first I wasn't getting the full results sonically I expected, but when I switched out the Jantzen C-Core inductors for AWG air core parts, things fell into place. I think we can get close to that sound at lower cost with the Erse laminate core parts. Unfortunately, the Jantzen C-Core parts have some kind of hysteresis which results in level dependent changes in inductance- at higher level, they're about what is described, but some funny things go on in the watt to sub watt range.

[mkc]

Hi Jon,

Have you had a chance to look at the SB SB12MNRX25-4? Only 88.5dB though. Very cheap here in Denmark compared to the SS.

Mogens

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

Have you had a chance to look at the SB SB12MNRX25-4? Only 88.5dB though. Very cheap here in Denmark compared to the SS.

Mogens

It looks like a possible bang for the buck leader, but the published response curve from SB Acoustics is rougher than I'd expect in the lower midrange- hard to say what the issue is. At that price, not likely to be getting copper in the gap, I'd wager.



My past experience with drivers this size is that they're tricky to work with because of the degree to which the front baffle obscures the rear wave- this doesn't look much different. The Illuninator "may" be better in that regard. The Accuton takes some care with back beveling, one reason I used an LBL sub panel.

[dar47]

Good to see some love for the Ardents. :P

My thinking is with the extensive box build, the C79 is a keeper, there is only 2 of them. It's still reasonable to choose a Scan 6600 or the N26 and those that have more can go for the 6640 (my goal). Now the woofers is where it can get really expensive, those 4 Scans add a lot compared to RS225's and this would carry forward for a matching CC if needed. My last theater build had sealed RS225 and they pound pretty good crossed at 60Hz. I'm glad your thinking of putting your efforts into sealed. If the RS225's work that would be great to carry through for a full 5.1 set up, music and theater!.

It would be nice to know what others considering the Ardent's would like to see? Jon thanks for not forgetting this great design.

[Carl V]

I'll just throw out my unsolicited $.02
I have a slight preference for SS, then Aurasound 10's then Seas LROY with RS225 after.
I've used these in 3 ways or BassBins (plateamps with LT circuits-Hypex or Adire ADA plate)
I'd like to step up to those big boy tweeters....sticking with Air Circ variations for now.
Still have some nice inverted tweeters...

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the comments and feedback, guys!

At the heart, I still really believe this speaker is about the C79's, so I really don't have my heart in testing other possible midrange driver.

IF we use that as a basis, then other things tend to fall into place, and the options become clearer, if more limited, when trying to stay within the context of the approximate current volume. Though I have to admit, a Mini-Me version of the Isiris using the C79, the air circs, and the NS10 Aurasound woofers would be a real hoot.

IF we stay within the notion of the original enclosure volume, then it's either the SS illuminators or RS225's; I need to run Unibox numbers to see if the RS225-4 is feasible, but my gut feeling says yes, especially because of the Qtc of the driver; wired in series it will be feasible to make a three way with a livable impedance curve and some flexibility in amplifier choice, instead of demanding an arc welder like many commercial dual woofer designs do. Yes, the sensitivity is lower, but this aids being able to do clever things with the tweeter and mid crossovers. The tweeter choice can be thrown wide open, (well, not totally, but pretty wide!) for anything that falls in what I call the "class of universal nearly exchangeable 4 ohm tweeters". This includes the RS25, the Vifa XT ring radiator, a whole slew of Scanspeak tweeters starting with the venerable 98000 and going through the D3004/6640-00, and total dark horse candidates like the SB Acoustics SB26STCN-C000-4. (I'm really curious about this one, the pair I ordered are destined for the NeoD CC MKII build, but boy, if some how they didn't have the high HD2 typical of small form factor tweeters, they might be real winners- the SPL curves on and off axis are quite good- certainly great stuff for a center channel- now if only they measure like their published specs and have decent distortion behavior- a relatively budget Ardent may be possible (considering that three way crossovers are never cheap, but this design approach balances component count and driver performance pretty nicely).

What I think I need to do next is check with the Rockler guys in Pleasant Hill, see if they have some of the 12" wide LBL boards- I think what I need to do is a full new front panel for one cabinet, all LBL, but only 3" thick, like the Isiris; layered up and tricked out for the midrange tunnel, then the same routing and work as for the Isiris for the other drivers. At this point if the Unibox numbers check out, I'd be trying out the dual RS225's to up the swept area; the other cabinet is already setup for the SS drivers, so it would be no problem doing a comparison. I'm not expecting to build a stereo pair for myself at this point, but to test and tweak the design options for other constructors. You'd be surprised how many requests I get for Ardent plans... I am!

And tonights listening is an old album that has been a joy to revisit, 1972's "Loggins and Messina".



Brings back memories of bar band days in Boulder Colorado- not listening to them, but playing in them. Favorites off this album were "Good Friend", "Golden Ribbons", and "Angry Eyes". (keyboards, flute, guitar- sometimes all in one song! Some funny memories about that- Angry Eyes. Ask me about my old Traynor amp sometime...). This album has the long version of Angry Eyes, not that chopped up version from their greatest hits album.



Dang, in retrieving this image, I just found out there's a 2008 remaster. Wonder if it's better or worse than my original? Will have to find out... just put it in my Amazon basket!

And I'm hopefully not going to repeat this too often, but the only time I've heard this album better than tonight is through Stax headphones... these speakers have been a real b*tch to build, but I think they're worth it.

[mkc]

It looks like a possible bang for the buck leader, but the published response curve from SB Acoustics is rougher than I'd expect in the lower midrange- hard to say what the issue is. At that price, not likely to be getting copper in the gap, I'd wager.



My past experience with drivers this size is that they're tricky to work with because of the degree to which the front baffle obscures the rear wave- this doesn't look much different. The Illuninator "may" be better in that regard. The Accuton takes some care with back beveling, one reason I used an LBL sub panel.

Hi Jon,

Zaphaudio has some measurements on his blog page. I will check about the copper.

Mogens

[5th element]

No that lil' SB mid-range doesn't have copper in the gap and as a result has mediocre third order products when compared to the other SB drivers in the same range. A very odd choice as with the copper would have resulted in a possible market leader, as it is, it's just like any other okay, inexpensive, smaller format driver.

Along with the Satori mid/bass, comes the Satori tweeter too and as it doesn't use neo, the price isn't ridiculous. That might be another tweeter worth a look.

[JonMarsh]

No that lil' SB mid-range doesn't have copper in the gap and as a result has mediocre third order products when compared to the other SB drivers in the same range. A very odd choice as with the copper would have resulted in a possible market leader, as it is, it's just like any other okay, inexpensive, smaller format driver.

Along with the Satori mid/bass, comes the Satori tweeter too and as it doesn't use neo, the price isn't ridiculous. That might be another tweeter worth a look.

well, to be fair, it DOES have the classic almost straight line rise in HD3 with frequency (inductivity modulation), unlike say the NS12 woofer, which has a straight line FALL, but it starts from a pretty low level, and Zaph measures smoother frequency response than the factory plot would indicate. It's a bit hashy in the CSD. But I'd rate it a much better value than the NE149, for example.

The Satori tweeter is out of stock, which let's me avoid dealing with my prejudices about ring radiator tweeters- the published specs look pretty good, but for some reasons, on an atavistic level, the dimple tweeters bug me... obviously not pistonic in any part of their operating range! :W

[JonMarsh]

Doing a little research, it turns out that the re-issue of "Loggins and Messina" in 2008 and the "Best: Loggins & Messina - Sittin in Again" are reportedly carefully remastered from the original analog tapes, supervised by Messina (who had originally joined with Loggins more as a producer for Kenny's first album, but got sucked into a more artistic role), and the word is that they are the best sounding releases of those cuts- no monkey business processing.

[JonMarsh]

By the way, this ad tracking your interests and browsing history is getting spooky...

Last night I was looking at Traynor Amps online, and some dealers, to see if/how they were doing in the business- checked out some YouTube videos of players doing stuff with them (pretty good tone, from a Brit style AC30 tone to a typical Marshall like presentation), and this morning the ad on the banner at HT Guide is from Compass music, with the 50W dual mode (50Watt AB, 15watt class A) tube head from Traynor that I'd been looking at last night in case I work up the nerve to pick up a new Gibson SG Supra this year...

[5th element]

well, to be fair, it DOES have the classic almost straight line rise in HD3 with frequency (inductivity modulation), unlike say the NS12 woofer, which has a straight line FALL, but it starts from a pretty low level, and Zaph measures smoother frequency response than the factory plot would indicate. It's a bit hashy in the CSD. But I'd rate it a much better value than the NE149, for example.

Well if by classic you mean poorer performing then sure. I know that SEAS drivers typically have a rising third order too, but as you say here, they start out at a rather low point. I don't know a huge amount about the specifics of motor design, but there is obviously something that SB, Scan and a few others do differently to keep the third order flat, rather than rising and it isn't because of an underhung motor, which might help, or because of lots of copper, because the Excel drivers have lots of that.

The SB certainly isn't bad, but it's in the same kind of price category/series as their other drivers, yet doesn't have the same quality of motor, which I find odd. It's certainly not done from the point of keeping the price low because SB do that on their other drivers with copper anyway.

As to its value, obviously that's high, as the price, like other standard SB drivers, is low. From falcon-acoustics here in the UK the SB12 is £33, without copper, vs the SB15s that cost £37, with. I just wish they'd given the SB12 the same quality of motor as their other drivers as then it'd be fantastic.

The Satori tweeter is out of stock, which let's me avoid dealing with my prejudices about ring radiator tweeters- the published specs look pretty good, but for some reasons, on an atavistic level, the dimple tweeters bug me... obviously not pistonic in any part of their operating range! :W

I know what you mean about them not being pistonic, but then the XT25 sounds darned fine if used correctly, so I'd be willing to let that slip if the rest of the performance of the Satori tweeter was on a par with the mid/bass. It'd be nice if Zaph could measure them so we'd have a direct comparison. I've seen quite a few measurements of the mid/bass where the measurement setup has significantly compromised the results in one way or another. Zaph's and only one other's measurements have actually shown the true -70dB+ nature of the third harmonic, so it makes me untrustworthy of the Satori tweeter that I've seen tested under the same, less than optimal, measurement conditions.

When SB announced the Satori I found it difficult to believe that they could realistically improve upon their standard 6.5" range, but then they went and raised the bar for the performance of what one could realistically expect from a soft cone 6.5" mid/bass. If they've managed to do the same with the tweeter, then it should be outstanding. I'd be very surprised if they could significantly improve upon the standard dimple though.

When you've got the Scan D2608/913, setting a rather high standard for what an inexpensive soft dome, with all metal construction, can achieve, it's sometimes difficult to see why it's necessary to spend more, unless you're needing a flat output down to around 500Hz. I do wish they'd release a stiff domed version of it though.

As to what you should use in the Ardent, I also agree that it's most likely the Accuton mid that is really the standout and although not cheap, you do get what you pay for in this case. It would be a shame if you opted for something else.

A pair of RS225s, if they'd fit into the cabinet, would make for a very good choice on a cost/performance basis and as you're crossing high to the tweeter, there's any number of inexpensive domes, in a variety of diaphragm materials that would probably suit.

If you went the way of the NE149, then imo the design would be too similar to the finalists and if you went the route of yet another 4-5" metal coned mid with RS225 + tweeter, then you've almost got a statement design or something more akin to one of CJDs Khan designs.

Keeping the Accuton mid, but using cost competitive performers elsewhere would be a fantastic option towards introducing people to what the Accuton drivers are actually like, without having to spend the usual ridiculous amount on an entire loudspeaker built up on components of a similar, cost no object ethos.

[JonMarsh]

Keeping the Accuton mid, but using cost competitive performers elsewhere would be a fantastic option towards introducing people to what the Accuton drivers are actually like, without having to spend the usual ridiculous amount on an entire loudspeaker built up on components of a similar, cost no object ethos.

And that, my friend, is what we call the money quote; it's the key to what I'd like to accomplish for this other version. Heck, that small form factor SB tweeter might even fit into that role if the HD is low enough... with that driver and a stack of RS225-4, decent but not excessive money can be spent on crossover components, up to the builder, of course, and the value proposition should be very reasonable. Maybe beyond reasonable!

[TEK]

Good to see some love for the Ardents. :P

My thinking is with the extensive box build, the C79 is a keeper, there is only 2 of them. It's still reasonable to choose a Scan 6600 or the N26 and those that have more can go for the 6640 (my goal). Now the woofers is where it can get really expensive, those 4 Scans add a lot compared to RS225's and this would carry forward for a matching CC if needed. My last theater build had sealed RS225 and they pound pretty good crossed at 60Hz. I'm glad your thinking of putting your efforts into sealed. If the RS225's work that would be great to carry through for a full 5.1 set up, music and theater!.

It would be nice to know what others considering the Ardent's would like to see? Jon thanks for not forgetting this great design.

On my part I keep coming back to this design - but I have to admit that I do not see myself building them in the very near future (1/2 year) - but I do really like the design. For my part I have more belive in a closed 2 woofer solution than a single woofer vented solution.
If I were to build this design my next step would be to create a center that would go with it and so close in peformance as possible. Then I guess I would like to have buildt 4 small wall mounted speakers for back and side. But for the back and side speakers I do belive that I would go for different, mutch smaller design with less costly drivers.

Right now I'm evaluting to start with building two new sub first. To get traning and build up to a goal of building the Ardent's I'm thinking about building as shown in the attaced picture (first draft sketcup model).
The idea is to use the Rythmikaudio 15" driver and amp kit in 3-4 cubic feet box (85-115 liters). The box on the picture I guess is approx 100 liters inside. Then, when I have actually built that I think my next goal would be a version of the Ardent's...


By the way Jon. Have you evaluated using the 8" scanspeak revelator paper cone drivers instead of the illuminator 6.5 drivers?

[JonMarsh]

well, funny you should mention that, but I have some of the 8" Scanspeak Aluminum cone drivers! Now, that would be an interesting if pricey combo, too.

Dang, I can't seem to hold out anything as a surprise to spring on you guys, you seem to read my mind! As in Ardent MKII tsi version with 6640 and dual 8857's, though I don't know how the sealed box Q would work out- planned to run that in Unibox, too. My own experience is that the magnets on the Revelator woofers are not as energized in production as in prototypes, and that's actually good for seeing a higher Qts. Have two on hand, in storage since 2010... that variant would be for the high rollers to consider, I suppose.

An interesting lower end solution would be dual RS225-4, with the 66000 air circ on tweeter. Should be able to figure out a way to do a test cabinet accommodating both.

Fun looking cabinet- go for it! I suggest a DeWalt DWS780, unless you already have something else picked out to deal with the facet cutting. Oh, and get a good Japanese style hand saw, too.

[dar47]

And that, my friend, is what we call the money quote;


Well said 5Th.

As well as a touch of high end with the mid you can always go back later and add a better tweet.

[sdl2112]

:T

well, funny you should mention that, but I have some of the 8" Scanspeak Aluminum cone drivers! Now, that would be an interesting if pricey combo, too.

Dang, I can't seem to hold out anything as a surprise to spring on you guys, you seem to read my mind! As in Ardent MKII tsi version with 6640 and dual 8857's, though I don't know how the sealed box Q would work out- planned to run that in Unibox, too. My own experience is that the magnets on the Revelator woofers are not as energized in production as in prototypes, and that's actually good for seeing a higher Qts. Have two on hand, in storage since 2010... that variant would be for the high rollers to consider, I suppose.

An interesting lower end solution would be dual RS225-4, with the 66000 air circ on tweeter. Should be able to figure out a way to do a test cabinet accommodating both.

Fun looking cabinet- go for it! I suggest a DeWalt DWS780, unless you already have something else picked out to deal with the facet cutting. Oh, and get a good Japanese style hand saw, too.

dual 8857s and 6640 you say...that is my next build...for myself this time :T. I have data on the 8857s I'll post once I have time to start a build thread.

[TEK]

Fun looking cabinet- go for it! I suggest a DeWalt DWS780, unless you already have something else picked out to deal with the facet cutting. Oh, and get a good Japanese style hand saw, too.

Could you reccomend something for the staight cut as well? My old bosh circular saw seems to have been bent or something (not just the blade).

[Jonasz]

:T

dual 8857s and 6640 you say...that is my next build...for myself this time :T. I have data on the 8857s I'll post once I have time to start a build thread.

If they measure anything like the 4867(8867) they should be tremendous! I believe the 10"ers could even be used in a twoway with a sturdy wg-loaded tweeter.

[BobEllis]

Could you reccomend something for the staight cut as well? My old bosh circular saw seems to have been bent or something (not just the blade).

I draw the parts out and rough cut with a circular saw leaving a couple mm outside the final shape. Then I clamp or screw a straight edge guide board right on the line and use a flush trim or pattern bit in my router to trim to finished size. I find that is a lot easier when working alone than trying to wrestle a sheet of MDF through a table saw, but limits you to 90 degree cuts. With a helper and a decent table saw/fence it's a lot faster and more flexible, but I don't have friends who want to build their own speakers.

[JonMarsh]

I draw the parts out and rough cut with a circular saw leaving a couple mm outside the final shape. Then I clamp or screw a straight edge guide board right on the line and use a flush trim or pattern bit in my router to trim to finished size. I find that is a lot easier when working alone than trying to wrestle a sheet of MDF through a table saw, but limits you to 90 degree cuts. With a helper and a decent table saw/fence it's a lot faster and more flexible, but I don't have friends who want to build their own speakers.

Sounds familiar, I actually recruited my girlfriend for doing the initial panel rip cuts on the LBL 4' x 6' sheets. She's something of a tomboy, so it was just an another interesting challenge/experience for her. But then, she put my new gas barbecue together while I was traveling on business. Maybe 28 years as an IBM systems engineer prepares a gal for stuff like that!

For big stuff and for a sliding miter table setup, my favorite is my Craftsman/Ryobi Franken saw- featured earlier numerous times in this thread. But an awful lot of what I do these days is with my DeWalt contractors table saw; (DW645, I think); the rack and pinion precision fence is just great- first rate! It's light and easy to carry around (necessary for me), but it only rips out to 16". However, that can cover some pretty large speaker cabinets (like the Isiris!).

[wkhanna]

Doing a little research, it turns out that the re-issue of "Loggins and Messina" in 2008 and the "Best: Loggins & Messina - Sittin in Again" are reportedly carefully remastered from the original analog tapes, supervised by Messina (who had originally joined with Loggins more as a producer for Kenny's first album, but got sucked into a more artistic role), and the word is that they are the best sounding releases of those cuts- no monkey business processing.

From the DR Database - http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.ph...der=asc&page=2



Sittin in Again -http://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=29502

And their others -http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.ph...&search_album=

[Face]

Festool rail saws are perfect for cutting facets.

[Lex]

I read most of this page, interesting read. Looks to be a little more than Ardent speaker camp, maybe it's Jon's homebrew, lol. Cool on the Loggins and Messina Jon, that is a while ago.

[JonMarsh]

Festool rail saws are perfect for cutting facets.

Undoubtedly! I see all that Festool stuff at Woodcraft, and drool over it from time to time... unfortunately, I've been blowing all my bucks on drivers, so I work with penny tools. How's it setup for doing angled facets, stuff like the top module of the Isiris? What kind of base/worktable is that?

[JonMarsh]

I read most of this page, interesting read. Looks to be a little more than Ardent speaker camp, maybe it's Jon's homebrew, lol. Cool on the Loggins and Messina Jon, that is a while ago.

Yeah, Loggins & Messina was some of my favorite "mainstream" stuff back in the day-- went over better with the band members than ELP and Yes, or Jethro Tull, though I managed to get them to do some of that stuff, too.

I "pulled the trigger" on the updated L&M CD's and some Andreas Vollenweider this AM; I'm hoping the basic quality of A/D (besides dynamic range) is better anyway. we'll see, the old CD's sound pretty good on the Isiris... pretty d*mn good, actually.

[Jonasz]

A version with the ER18RNX and D3004/6640 was completed; but I was not fully satisfied with it, due to the performance of the Seas woofers in a ported system.. One cabinet has been modified to use Scanspeak Illuminator woofers (aluminum cone versions) sealed. (after my developmental experience with the Modula Xtreme, leading to the Isiris, I've made a determination for myself that I prefer the definition of sealed systems, as regards the much tighter step response, and prefer to use them in designs moving forward. YMMV, tons of people doing ported designs out there, so it's not likely to be a problem for folks finding them if that's their preference. It's not mine, though I understand for small systems with limited driver swept area it may be thought to be a good tradeoff.)

Jon have you investigated Wavecors Balanced Drive units? I've seen measurements in Hobby Hifi were they performed comparably or even favourable distortionwise to the SS18WU driver.

This one for example: https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?c...=1&s2=&s3=&s4=

Theres also "subwoofer" version here: https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?c...=1&s2=&s3=&s4=

[Face]

Undoubtedly! I see all that Festool stuff at Woodcraft, and drool over it from time to time... unfortunately, I've been blowing all my bucks on drivers, so I work with penny tools. How's it setup for doing angled facets, stuff like the top module of the Isiris? What kind of base/worktable is that?

It would be perfect for facets...depending on the cutting depth you require. I'm using the smaller of the two saws since it's dust collection is better. The larger saw has a deeper cutting depth, and aside from slightly less efficient dust collection(due to an accessory that will not fit), there are no other negatives. Besides, even if you can't cut all the way through, you can finish the cut with a nice hand saw. And doing so leaves some material behind for the rail to rest on, so it's not really a negative. As for the table, it's also made by Festool.

You should set a tight budget for your next project and splurge on some nice tools.

[JonMarsh]

Jon have you investigated Wavecors Balanced Drive units? I've seen measurements in Hobby Hifi were they performed comparably or even favourable distortionwise to the SS18WU driver.

This one for example: https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?c...=1&s2=&s3=&s4=

Theres also "subwoofer" version here: https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?c...=1&s2=&s3=&s4=

Those look to be a new level of drivers for Wavecor- the "subwoofer" ones look the most interesting, from a Qts viewpoint, but the sensitivity is so low! At least the SPL plots are, I'm having a bit of difficulty reconciling the 2.83VRMS sensitivity versus the SPL plots which also show 2.83VRMS drive- for example, for the 4 ohm SW182BD01, the rated sensitivity is 85.5 dB, (with the note calculated from T/S parameters), but the plot for it barely nudges 81 dB in a small portion of the range? Curious. And the 8 ohm version doesn't quite touch 80 dB. I expect that with 25 mm xmax 10's and 12s, but not an 8 mm Xmax 7" driver- the aluminum Illuminators are quite a bit higher in sensitivity.

Have you seen any reviews or test reports on these anywhere?

[Winter]

Wavecor updated their website last week, adding a couple paper/fiberglass coned mid-woofers to replace their paper/Nomex coned mid-woofers.

WF152BD05 & 06........ 6" with round frame
WF182BD09 & 10........ 7" with round frame
WF182BD11 & 12........ 7" with truncated frame