Three Way Evil Design Study

[JonMarsh]

Now that's a blast from the past! Most of my early (1970-1980) speaker building was was done with a Craftsman Radial Arm Saw; did mitered corners in cross cut and ripping with that, mostly with pre-veneered MDF for loudspeaker construction, some furniture work occasionally. They were not easy to setup for accurate work. I have had a Hitachi 10" compound sliding miter saw for some years, it works nice, but not at the piece size that I need for some projects. This DeWalt is in a whole different category, and from what I can tell is a significantly better design than most other 12" sliding miter saws, in terms of it's maximum cutting capacity. I have a contractor friend who owns the previous model, that I talked to this morning, and he concurred with my suggestion that the DWS780 is the cat's meow these days.

[Hank]

Way to go Jon - a new Power Tool! Many years ago, my Dad had a DeWalt radial arm saw - that was actually the first power tool I used - cut everything with it - didn't use a table saw until many, many years later when I bought one. Bring on the compound angle cuts!

[cjd]

I think I'd have gone for the Bosch, but that's a mighty fine (but yellow! ) saw there.

[dar47]

Very nice :T I rented one of those when I had to do the 10" pine siding on the front of the house. There is a very good extension stand for that saw as well.

Pick one of these for the table saw, it does accurate cuts as well and keeps the angle while pushing large material through the saw.

[JonMarsh]

Very nice :T I rented one of those when I had to do the 10" pine siding on the front of the house. There is a very good extension stand for that saw as well.

Pick one of these for the table saw, it does accurate cuts as well and keeps the angle while pushing large material through the saw.

What make and model? That looks interesting!

Update: Found it on Woodcraft site. Would be a great addition for many saws, I think- my Craftsman/Ryobi has a full sliding miter table, which may be more capable than this add on. Actually, one thing I'd been doing was looking for higher end saws that had fancier sliding miter tables, maybe more weight capacity. Didn't find anything... and the Incra sleds reduce the cutting height unacceptably, in my opinion.




My Frankensaw is a combination of this craftswman and longer rails from my Ryobi BT3100 and a top plate from my BT3100. Have TWO sliding miter tables, of course- one from each saw!

[JonMarsh]

I think I'd have gone for the Bosch, but that's a mighty fine (but yellow! ) saw there.

The Bosch GCM12SD was a contender, but the DWS780 won out because of design tradeoffs that favored a 2" longer crosscut capability. Being a little less expensive didn't hurt, either. :W

Another factor was local availability for the DeWalt- though given it's specs, I was originally prepared to order online.

Of course, first thing I did was swap out the saw blade for a high grade finishing blade.

It's going to be a busy weekend, especially as the girlfriend will be out of town for political canvassing.

[dar47]

What make and model? That looks interesting!

From Exalibur, By General Inc. Original manufacturer was Osborne, General bought them out. Model 50-EB3. It's not protractor based and has a sliding support arm with push handle and a non slip front surface. it extends to 3' so long pieces are handled easy. Had to aline the table saw miter slot to the blade to within .005" then every angle was bang on.

[URL=http://www.general.ca/site_excalibur/e_produits/50-eb3e.html]http:

[JonMarsh]

Hi Tech not always best...

Interesting thing about the DWS780- no laser guide like my Hitachi. What it DOES implement is LED illumination on both sides of the blade, so that you have a well lit workplace, which as you bring the blade down, casts a shadow line exactly where the blade will cut on the surface. Cool.

[PMazz]

That is a very cool feature! When we got our first one we thought "how corny, a work light!" until we dropped the blade. Pretty damned accurate for a simple device.

If you haven't checked it yet.... The DeWalts are also easy to fine tune if needed. Do a full length crosscut. Flip it to the other side of the blade and check to see if it aligns perfectly again. If not reposition the miter gauge stop guide and repeat. Do the same for the vertical accuracy by standing a piece on edge against the fence and plunge cutting. There is a bolt IIRC that can be adjusted for a true 90.

[JonMarsh]

That is a very cool feature! When we got our first one we thought "how corny, a work light!" until we dropped the blade. Pretty damned accurate for a simple device.

If you haven't checked it yet.... The DeWalts are also easy to fine tune if needed. Do a full length crosscut. Flip it to the other side of the blade and check to see if it aligns perfectly again. If not reposition the miter gauge stop guide and repeat. Do the same for the vertical accuracy by standing a piece on edge against the fence and plunge cutting. There is a bolt IIRC that can be adjusted for a true 90.

I noticed this going through the guide- there are a number of "fine tune" adjustments. I'll be checking these things and giving the saw a work out this weekend, Pete. So far it looks very promising!

[PMazz]

You actually read the manual??? Real men just guess at it!

[Hank]

Say it isn't so, Jon! Pete is spot on: real men do NOT read manuals! After the first couple of pages, instructing me to not sit in a bathtub of water whilst holding subject device in one hand and plugging it into a wall outlet with the other hand, I just get too bored to read the ensuing three lanugage "manual".
zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[JonMarsh]

Hey, everyone knows I'm not the sharpest piece of chalk in the drawer, so I need every advantage (real, perceived, or otherwise) I can get. One of the few things I do well is reading; in the third grade I had a high school reading level- and we're not talking freshman or sophomore, either.

So yeah, I cheat, I read the manuals (I may fast forward through that safety malarkey), but I especially look for set and tuning features and how-to's for special features I might otherwise overlook and not discover on my own until I've had the item in question for five years! ops:

My personal definition is that man is a tool using animal, which of course means that "real men" in particular are tool using animals; and besides those beastly saws, routers, sprayers, drill presses, etc, we all love, math and reading are also tools... I need every advantage I can get! :roll:

Call it cheating, call it what you will - I'm recommended for another promotion at work because of that kind of level of "cheating" (at least, that's why I think it's happening!) It can't be because I'm such a lovable fellow... :rofl:

(I say recommended, because my local boss and the US management can only recommend for this kind of promotion- it has to be approved at the board level in Europe) (fortunately I have both acquaintances and friends on the management board).

So, everyone go out this weekend, set aside a little time, and read just one manual- at least the important stuff!! :W

Me, I'm going to be finishing my piece part build prints this evening (raining today here), and tomorrow I hope to get some real nice work out of that new DWS780 and my trusty "old" DW745. If I'm lucky and get far enough, I'll be using my DeWalt DW782 biscuit joiner and starting to put some cabinets together!

[dar47]

Congratulations on the potential kick up stairs. Hopefully that means more time directing others and potentially more time off. Here hoping for both as that may have a spin off of more speaker building time. I get a kick out of your obvious excitement with this project and it's infectious.

[Paul W]

Gotta watch those promotions...they tend to suck up more and more of your speaker building time!

[5th element]

It's not cheating Jon, after all when you spend as much time as you do in the air, one thing you can actually do is read up on how to use your tools better. Might save some time when you're actually on the ground again.

[Hank]

Well, I think we've found a new button of Jon's. I won't be pushing that one again any time soon 8O Jon, if the promo frees up some time, go for it. If it involves even more time that your current position, turn it down or you'll never get any more speakers built.
Well, I do have this new tablet with Android Ice Cream Sandwich that I ordered from Hong Kong (Marvell brand), and, believe it or not, the manual on CD is actually a good English translation - first decent one I've seen from China - so, maybe tomorrow I'll comply with Jon's directive.

[JonMarsh]

Gotta watch those promotions...they tend to suck up more and more of your speaker building time!

This is a wise man, with much experience...


My US boss says he's just going to change my role starting this quarter regardless of the approval process. We're agreed that I'm going to defend my weekends strenuously...

Congratulations on the potential kick up stairs. Hopefully that means more time directing others and potentially more time off. Here hoping for both as that may have a spin off of more speaker building time. I get a kick out of your obvious excitement with this project and it's infectious.

Hey, that's great, but look when this thread originally started- - I mean, 2006, that's crazy! I'm all for long range plans, but there is such a thing as excessively deferred gratification! THAT's how long this has been simmering on the back burner- it's just finally since the beginning of the year (and connecting with Michael Bell and his desire to collaborate on this- he kicked me off my duff, to a certain extent) to really get this rolling. Seems like the right time for certain problems to be solved, and solutions coalescing out of the MDF dust...

It's not cheating Jon, after all when you spend as much time as you do in the air, one thing you can actually do is read up on how to use your tools better. Might save some time when you're actually on the ground again.

And that's why I have so many PDF files loaded into iBooks and PDF Cabinet on my iPad 3- it's the only piece of computing gear that will last for an intercontinental flight! Even have the manual for the DWS780 on their already!

So to Hank and his new Marvel tablet, I'd say one of your first assignments is to find the best PDF reader/annotating tool available on that platform- because the next best thing after reading PDFs is marking them up with your own notes and thoughts...

[JonMarsh]

Good Morning California!

Oh, how I love the smell of MDF in the morning!

(well, actually NOT, but then, the LBL doesn't outgass, whereas MDF does for years until you seal it!)

It's 8 AM, I've got a full tank of gas, and it's a hundred miles to Chicago...

OOOPS, wrong movie!


Well, actually, I've just brought home a load of ripped LBL and HDF from one of my storage units, I've got a brand new DWS780 to fire up, and I'm printing out more piece part blueprints on my Epson R3880 - it's sunny, 50 degrees, and a fine day for speaker building!

Hopefully I'll have some interesting progress reports by the end of the weekend (interesting to me, probably not so much to the spectators, as it's focussed on piece part construction before assembling the cabinets).

Everyone else, have a great weekend, do something else fun if you're not building speakers!

[cjd]

It's 8 AM, I've got a full tank of gas, and it's a hundred miles to Chicago...

Only 38 to the Sears (er... Willis) Tower as the crow flies, and that's basically my daily commute too.

Unsure if I'll be making sawdust here though - my doc has nixed that kind of work till we start seeing improvement in my back. I may just ignore the doc... I've been slowly hand-fitting the braces, since I didn't end up being able to get the dado cuts quite accurate enough, and I decided to overbuild this one so much... It's oddly satisfying to get them done though.

While I'm waiting I've been trying to figure out if I can justify a big enough vacuum bag to use cold press veneer. Because that would make the design I'd like to do for the next one slightly easier to achieve, too...

And then I remember I need a new house with more rooms for all these speakers! Plus, that would allow me to include a proper workshop...

Speaker building is expensive!

Enjoy your weekend Jon! I think mine will be more realistically spent cooking, sipping wine, watching movies, and browsing forums online for some vicarious speaker-building.

[EdL]

my doc has nixed that kind of work till we start seeing improvement in my back. I may just ignore the doc...

Repetitive movement is called therapy. It will aid your recovery. ...with the usual disclaimer for "not overdoing it" Know the limits. Don't push them but "brush" up against them. Be deliberate, with each move well planned. Anticipate the tasks for which helping hands are your best protection. I know this through 2 surgery recoveries.

Do you Chi-town guys know that SY (Stuart Yaniger) who frequents diyAudio has settled in your vicinity?

[JonMarsh]

I can definitely empathize in these cases; I had a herniated disk repair with a microdiscectomy in 2003. A torn meniscus repaired in 2006. It took a lot of rehabilitation and hours on the exercise bike to really get the back "back to normal" for the most part; of course, it isn't really "normal" (doesn't handle impact stress like running), but lifting heavy stuff is OK for some time. The back quit bothering me on a frequent basis around the middle of 2008, just to give some reference. Now, it's not uncommon that I unconsciously do something with range of motion and strength easily and successfully that would have been flat out impossible from 2001 through 2006... and believe me, I'm thankful.

Take care of yourself, and pay attention to what your doctor tells you- but Ed's advice is quite good, too, based on my experience.

And enjoy the weekend, vicarious or not!

[cjd]

Oh, I'm doing the repetitive stuff that helps recovery - I have some basic exercises that, if done every day, leave me largely pain-free - it's basic arthritis (i.e swelling of the joints) at the very base of the spine (L5-S1, so the very base of the flexible part of the spine) - where the project work ends up causing problems is the constant leaning forward without balancing by leaning back. Easy enough to work both ways but I wear out after a few hours of that since I have to stop work and hold a stretch every 10 minutes or so, max. Probably would be less an issue today, but a late diagnosis of the specific issue didn't help. I've been vaguely chasing this for ~7 years ("too young" for a more serious look, evidently.) X-rays proved it's not just a "young and stupid" strain.

Also, the wine helps the pain... and goes with the cooking, which I also really enjoy doing so... Also goes with just USING the results of our labor, sit back and listen to some music...

I did not know SY was around, as I don't actually know who that is. Maybe he'll join us for our next DIY Chicago event.

C

[EdL]

SY is currently one of the moderators over on diyAudio.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/214300-heading-chicago.html

sorry for the OT

[meb46]

CJD - Whens the next Chicago DIY Event?

[Hank]

We'll see what Jon accomplished over the weekend. And maybe John started installing his Kleos drivers I was asked to sit in with the Polkadillos for 3 Saturdays - played at the German/Texan Heritage Foundation historical building on 10/6 and last Saturday at a family's home - huge Oktoberfest bash with plenty of German beer and wine and authentic German food - that gentleman does it up right. Also got in some repetitive motion: lifting of the glasses of tequila in an attempt to salve my disappointment of 3 of my 4 teams losing: UT, Dallas and the Yankees. At least TCU won.

[JonMarsh]

Got some grunt work done

Not a lot of pretty pictures, but got some good grunt work done- mostly unsexy stuff like laminating up center braces, working on side panels, and driver logistics.

The center brace is a somewhat complex piece for being just as flat board,




Slow work takes time, so there's no substitute for putting in the hours. The right angle rails are used for all panel laminating steps (fronts and otherwise) to be sure the glued up panel is straight and true. Works like a charm. :W



The front panels for the top modules at least show some tangible evidence of something that will become a speaker... :B



It takes time to rout 2-1/2" deep hole cut outs! 8O



Also got in contact with the tweeter distributor; they're in stock in LA, and he's getting me mechanical drawings to confirm the dimensions I have by an indirect source. Should order them next weekend. Then I'll have all the drivers on hand.

It feels like slow going, but it usually does at this stage of a project like this. At least, no veneering to consider this time!

Hope to get a little work in this evening, laminating side panels maybe, and gluing up the deep cut fixture for the DWS780.

[ColoradoTom]

Not a lot of pretty pictures, but got some good grunt work done- mostly unsexy stuff like laminating up center braces, working on side panels, and driver logistics.

Hey Jon..... looking good.

I've had a similar work year to yours, but it comes at a very good time as both my girls will be in college in the next two years and it's nice to have their education paid in advance!! Oldest daughter should hear from Colorado School of Mines within the week!!!

I've had two custom woodworking jobs (entertainment centers) I needed to finish for friends consuming my free time, but I'm just starting a dual opposed subwoofer project using B&C 18" drivers. Combined with my Geddes Abbeys I should be able to kick some serious acoustic butt in the next couple of weeks.

Looking forward to see how this turns out.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Good to hear from you, Tom!

I bet your friends are going to be happy with their units once they get them- you're an example of why I don't consider myself much of a woodworker, just a wires and sparks guy with a few power tools! Post pictures if it's OK when you finish them!

Funny you mention an opposed force canceling sub- that's something I've also been thinking about doing in my copious spare time, given all the drivers I have stock piled! Let's see, do I want to go with 12's, 15's or? Madisound still has some Aurasound NS18-992's in stock, along with rebuild kits- maybe sealed and stuffed with a LR EQ, they might be some fun? Fairly efficient (86 db) for 25mm Xmax. There are probably better drivers available, but I have a soft spot in my heart for Aurasound. (must be why I have all those NS12-513 and NS10-513!) Maybe I could talk my girlfriend into using it as a stand for the 50" Panny Plasma TV I talked her into... :W

[ColoradoTom]

I was originally thinking of using the Aurasound NS12-513 - I have 8 of them stashed away waiting on this project. After modeling the B&C it looked to be a better match to the Abbeys. I'll have three subs with two 18 inchers in each one. I've attached a picture with a gallon of Titebond II as reference.

The other picture is the entertainment center... I've included it because I'm thinking of using the same base on a couple of audio projects. The main part "floats" on the base.

Tom

Good to hear from you, Tom!

I bet your friends are going to be happy with their units once they get them- you're an example of why I don't consider myself much of a woodworker, just a wires and sparks guy with a few power tools! Post pictures if it's OK when you finish them!

Funny you mention an opposed force canceling sub- that's something I've also been thinking about doing in my copious spare time, given all the drivers I have stock piled! Let's see, do I want to go with 12's, 15's or? Madisound still has some Aurasound NS18-992's in stock, along with rebuild kits- maybe sealed and stuffed with a LR EQ, they might be some fun? Fairly efficient (86 db) for 25mm Xmax. There are probably better drivers available, but I have a soft spot in my heart for Aurasound. (must be why I have all those NS12-513 and NS10-513!) Maybe I could talk my girlfriend into using it as a stand for the 50" Panny Plasma TV I talked her into... :W

[meb46]

Great progress Jon... i'm just chasing up my cabinets again, hopefully within the next two days should see them back

[JonMarsh]

Man, you've got to be on pins and needles waiting for them... I know how I'd feel in your place, after all this time!

Did a little more work last night on the top module front panels- cored out the holes, will be cleaning them up and back bevel with a router tomorrow evening.

I'm also somewhat relieved the tweeters are in stock in the USA. Just trying to keep some steady progress going. :W

[JonMarsh]

More tools and glue purchased Thursday, and tweeters on the way today. Need to build the deep cut platform for the DWS780 tonight. Have all the woofer cabinet side panels laminated, will do the rabbet clean up and cross cuts Saturday, along with more top module work.

I'll probably start an official build thread this weekend, if I have time in the evening- this thread has been fun but it's more like a diary of stream of consciousness than anything else-

[technodanvan]

this thread has been fun but it's more like a diary of stream of consciousness than anything else-

Better your stream of consciousness than mine!

[JonMarsh]

I'm on regional business travel today, but had a very busy weekend.

How busy?

How about emptying my 9 gallon shop vac of wood chips and sawdust twice, and filling it half way up again one more time!

Obviously, working took priority over photography and posting. But there is a visual record, which will get partially posted later on. Good progress on the front panels, and some design execution changes now planned for how the top module is put together, with a more complex miter arrangement for the top that should both be more attractive and easier to assemble.


While the DWS780 has definitely earned it's keep, I've pushed it to it's limits, and had to come up with some work arounds for somethings. Still, overall I'm quite pleased with it, and look forward to finishing the top module piece parts and assembly fairly soon- it's been a godsend.

Also started thinking about how I'll setup another system, and it occurred to me I've got a pair of Araong Palladium 1K's that could be pretty nice with a little tweaking. More on that later...

[JonMarsh]

Sky is falling...

Figures that the day that I get some new tweeters in, the sky starts falling at work and I'm covering for other people's absences on critical customer visits by HQ people!

So, if a picture is worth a thousand words, here's a lot of words...







Nice build quality, and do come with individual measurements.

As always, the proof is in the pudding...

[Silversmoky]

Those sure are purdy Jon! Looking forward to your impressions and test results.

[5th element]

Yes, test results will certainly be interesting.

[JonMarsh]

No measurements yet- have been woodworking during the free time I could find this weekend! For "normal" measurements I'll have to get the test baffle out of storage- the Isiris cabinets will have a rather different characteristic, with the baffle step transition pushed up to a fairly high frequency due to the cabinet shape.

The two LBL top modules have all the pieces cut but I had to knock off for dinner with my daughter part way through the biscuit rabetting. Everything seems to fit so far (and with the top and bottom being the only parallel surfaces!), in spite of more compound miter/bevel combos than I've ever attempted before! Should be gluing them together this coming weekend. The MDF test mule's (for N26 tweeter) front panel, top and base are finished, still have to cut the sides and rear panel.

Black phenolic sheet for the bass/top module separator was ordered this weekend, too.

Geez! Slow work takes time!

[meb46]

Jon - The top cabinets can be a bit tricky to glue together if you used the same geometry as me. It takes a bit of guess work... I ended up using ratchett straps and then gluing everything off the back face, if that makes sense. It is really important to have all the angles spot on for it to go together properly...

I had one small hiccup on my cabinets which the supplier decided to re-veneer one face to repair. Means another delay, but hoping for next week for their return.

[JonMarsh]

Jon - The top cabinets can be a bit tricky to glue together if you used the same geometry as me. It takes a bit of guess work... I ended up using ratchett straps and then gluing everything off the back face, if that makes sense. It is really important to have all the angles spot on for it to go together properly...

I had one small hiccup on my cabinets which the supplier decided to re-veneer one face to repair. Means another delay, but hoping for next week for their return.

Now THAT's an understatement if I've ever heard one! I have modified some of the geometry a little bit, because of the LBL bamboo- the top piece is now full width, and has a 35 degree bevel matching up to the sides which have a complementary 35 degree bevel (due to the 20 degree slope angle of the sides), so this way it looks like a veneer wrap from the sides over the top. I also have an additional forward cross piece on the base where it meets the front panel, which gives me a 1-1/2" surface gluing to the front panel.

I considered both starting from the front and the back, but the newest assembly process I mapped out and recorded on my iPad in bed at 1AM this morning (you never know when you're going to wake up with a new idea in the middle of the night- this project has caused lots of middle of the night worry sessions!) starts from the front, with the front panel and base, with the sides as dry checks on the angle, then adds the top and back (again with sides as dry checks), then will glue the sides last. Glue I'm using for actual cabinet assembly is System Three T-88 Epoxy Structural adhesive.

As impatient as I'm starting to get, I'll likely try starting that this evening, if the last dry fit checks pass muster.

Working at this stage is nerve wracking, because of the possibility of yield loss- I messed up one top module side panel yesterday afternoon, and had to cut a fresh one, but I have a bit of overage in the LBL to cover small incidents like this. A front panel mess up would be a catastrophe, requiring another LBL order!

Sorry to hear about the hiccup and veneer repair- this has got to be killing you at this stage! Of course, it gives me a little more time to catch up.

I've also been modeling some crossover ideas in the evening- I'm considering doing the mid to tweeter crossover more like the Modula MT/NatalieP, in a quasi series/parallel configuration, because of the ease in tuning distinct areas with minimal components, especially the transition region, but I've got more simulation work to do to prove that out- would give a better control over the low end of the tweeter, too, as well as a very benign impedance curve to drive.

[Manning]

Better your stream of consciousness than mine!

That's what makes this place so interesting. You never know what you're going to learn or how the lesson is going to be presented.

Keep streaming Jon.....you're the man. ;x(

[JonMarsh]

More uses for that wonderful blue tape...

This one's for Hank....





"Soft strapping/positioning" for low pressure epoxy wood joints...



I was up extra early all this week for conference calls at ridiculous times times of the morning, so I broke off a little early this after noon to do some side panel gluing. Everything has been double checked and tweaked, sometimes just shaving off a 32nd of an inch or inside beveling the angle an extra degree to optimize the fit...

They're either a labor of love or labor of insanity...

The black phenolic sheets I ordered for the module separator plates from Bell Plastics arrived today, too. Progress is our most important product... they should cut nicely with my Amana non-ferrous 10" blade; with a -6 degree hook it handles difficult materials well.

[meb46]

Excellent progress Jon, I am impressed you managed to get all of your cutting so accurate in the absence of a CNC machine I guess I cheated in my case Keep the photos coming so I can get excited in the absence of my cabinets. I'm going to be cutting in fine between getting cabinets back and drivers mounted before I need to pack them up for my pending move the Chicago. It might even introduce a convenient "crossover" buffer time

[JonMarsh]

The special angle gauge from Woodpecker and my calipers have been indispensable !

It's been more like measure four times, cut once, then measure and trim again if needed! It's the best work I've ever done, but then, I'm not really a woodworker! Not like some of the guys here! I'm more comfortable with a good circuit simulation program or a scope and distortion analyzer! I'll start an official build thread once I'm caught up with where I want to be!