Three Way Evil Design Study

[Hank]

If a more Rubenesque response is preferred, then closer positioning to walls will be allowable.

Evil Twin, I just could not let that artistic reference go unacknowledged/unappreciated!

[JonMarsh]

Hmmmm...

Evil Twin, I just could not let that artistic reference go unacknowledged/unappreciated!

Hmmm, maybe he's on a European vacation, too, this Spring?

I'm in Vrana tonight, spent two days in the Mikulov area. Taking some fun pictures, but after nine miles of hiking (including some steeper / more difficult terrain, and finishing dinner at 9:30, no time for Adobe Lightroom, just crashing! If nothing else, may get some pictures posted after we get to Prague. Will be spending about 5 days there.

Yes, impossible as it seems, no Speaker Camp this spring! :roll: :cry:

[JonMarsh]

Leaving Telć this morning

Two days here, it's gotten pretty cold for May, overnight low last night of 37, down to 32 tomorrow- we're heading out closer to Prague today, hiking in the Slavonice area today, staying there tonight.

Here's a view of the square in Telć near where we stayed.



This reduced resolution version is just in sRGB color space, the original is a bit nicer...

It's like going back 40 years traveling around here, for various reasons- this part of Europe has been through the meat grinder since the late 30's. But it's coming back slowly now- very inexpensive, too, a decent meal for two at a local Italian restaurant was only about $15, excluding the wine last night.

[David G]

Gorgeous photo Jon.

[Dean100]

Wow! Jon, are you actually on vacation or is this just a little diversion from work?

Whatever it is, I hope you enjoy it.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, this Is the first conventional vacation I've done in eons! So far, working out pretty well, getting one good exercise and having some interesting photographic opportunities. Wifi at this hotel is really flaky, though, and some don't have it at all!

[JonMarsh]

Gorgeous photo Jon.

Thanks! Taken on my medium format Pentax, "developed" in Adobe Lightroom 4. It's going to take a while to catch up with all the shots I've taken and figure out what to save and post.

[gbegland]

Was in Prague 2 years ago. If you get a chance, take the bus day trip to Karlovy Vary(Carlsbad). And get some of the soft pretzel solds from the little store fronts with rye and stuff on them. Ate several every day....even if I was not hungry!

And don't let the dark lord near the "adult toy museum", you might not get him out. :twisted:

Greg

[JonMarsh]

Was in Prague 2 years ago. If you get a chance, take the bus day trip to Karlovy Vary(Carlsbad). And get some of the soft pretzel solds from the little store fronts with rye and stuff on them. Ate several every day....even if I was not hungry!

And don't let the dark lord near the "adult toy museum", you might not get him out. :twisted:

Greg

Thanks for the suggestions! We'll be in Prague a couple of days for the Sierra Club outing but then also 3-4 days on our own- will check these out! :T

[JonMarsh]

Teburon

Had a nice dinner here, will be doing a walk around in the town square later this morning...

[JonMarsh]

Making progress

Third weekend off in a row...

Production prints are nearly complete (piece part drawings)

B's garage shelves were completed ths weekend- allows next weekend for cutting test parts for an MDF/BB ply build for one cabinet- will have an acoustic test platform in parallel to construction of the LBL stereo pair.

Base measurements on N26 completed (looks good), and additional tweeter candidates identified. Located Jantzen diamonds in stock, examining piggy bank and conscience.

Storing the Modula Xtreme's next weekend.

Satin finish on Arvo Picante's turned out well, hardened nicely, looks good. Will probably go that way after test work on piece of LBL.

Still pondering cabinet interconnect. Got some Cardas Golden Presence cables I could cut up and re-terminate.

[dar47]

Now that your nearing completion on the Arvo part and starting on Deaf Star (love the layout) it looks to have 12's will there be a 10" option for the bottom end? For me I would consider this over the Ardent as height & depth would not be an issue but cabinet width is a concern. Not sure if this is a one of with just the diamond two.
Sorry to bug you I'm just getting altogether to excited.

[JonMarsh]

Funny you should mention that- I have two pairs of NS10's, and of course Seas, ScanSpeak, and others make good tens. It would mainly be an adjustment to the cabinet size and crossover level tweaks.

I've got two pairs of NS12's hoarded for this project, with the underhung voice coil with good faraday shield in the gap, the distortion is quite low on this driver well up into the upper midrange. Seeing falling distortion all the way up to 2 kHz is unusual- usually you'll see it start to rise, actually, from 300 Hz or so, due to inductivity modulation.

Keep in mind we're developing a version based on TransducerLabs N26, and adapting this to the Be 6640 would be pretty straight forward. I'm building a test mule as well as a pair from LBL.




2nd order HD at 90 dB




3rd order HD @ 90 dB (wow, these old measurements seem kind of crude compared with what Fuzzmeasure does)




Torture test time, keeping in mind these aren't sub drivers, 100 dB

HD 2



HD 3




That's for one driver.

[dar47]

Wow crossing those with a centre around 400 looks like a cake walk, this is so much more potent then I would ever need, but wish I could Have.

So for say, a Seas version were you thinking 10" Roy, C79, 89 and the 6640? That would put this under the the Scan version of the Ardent. Rick Craig did a great design similar to the Ardents for a friend with those 7" Illuminators and I love the sound but they add a ton to the cost. A 10" in the $200+ range sealed with all the same goodness up top would have me chomping at the bit and probably cover off any medium sized room for both music and movies.

[JonMarsh]

There are a lot of possible candidates for a 10" woofer in this kind of application- the original ROY (not the new one for dipole woofers), the aluminum Revelator 10" scans, and even the new Discovery series 10" subwoofer.

Picking the best mid in a situation like this isn't easy- many manufacturers lean towards one of the new lower cost 7" Accutons, like the C173-6-191E, with it's conventional motor structure. But like the older 096, the distortion profile is no where near as nice as the 090- but the 79 will be a bit stressed trying to keep up with the SPL capabilities of the 10's. It's a balancing act, for certain, one that requires more thought. Especially given that you can't really save money on the crossover, so cutting corners on the drivers is possibly pound foolish.

Without a doubt the change in pricing on rare earth minerals from China has really distorted/changed driver prices severely. Now the 7" Illuminator is priced about the same as a 10" Revelator aluminum woofer, which is pretty crazy. And the top Accuton drivers have roughly doubled in cost- painful, for sure... But those neodymium powered underhung motors work so nicely...

[dar47]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I agree the difference between $3500 & $5000 when putting this much effort in and doing something along the commercial lines of $20,000 is not worth cutting corners.

China's end game of cutting production by 20% and raising prices while offering discounts to any manufactures willing to partner with them and setup in China is only going to open up mines in other countries like Canada where they were closed because China flooded the market way under previous world prices.

[Hank]

Since the price of neodymium affects DIYers, your comment is timely, dar47. Two factors have already resulted in some rare earths' declining prices: your mention of new mines, and the China economy slowdown. This from 9/20 Star.com:
"In August, China announced new export quotas on rare earth elements (REE), which increased the yearly figure by 2.7 percent.

"This is the first time in five years that the REE quota has increased and is the highest in three years, which is seen as a slight negative as excess supply would put pressure on prices," analyst Carolyn Dennis of Toronto-based Dundee Capital Markets said in a note to clients.
NEW MINES
The spike in prices prompted a flurry of new mining projects and the two most advanced are due to come on stream this year, boosting global supplies of rare earths.

Molycorp, the biggest rare earth producer outside China, has reopened the Mountain Pass mine in California and is due to boost output to 19,050 tonnes a year in the fourth quarter from 3,516 tonnes last year.

Lynas is also due to fire up an $800 million rare earths plant in Malaysia as early as October after receiving a temporary operating licence. The plant would supply about 11,000 tonnes in its first year, eventually rising to 22,000 tonnes."

Of course, the economic theory of Price Stickiness means that it may be quite a while before we see relief at the speaker level. Have you noticed that Tang Band has changed over to trad magnets from neodymium in several driver models?
NOW, back to the thread topic ops:

[JonMarsh]

Back story details...

As always, Hank does a great job of filling in details of the back story with a current economic update. And price "stickiness" will likely keep those prices up a while unless the rare earths come down substantially and stay down, unfortunately.


In other news, Speaker Camp for this Saturday is cancelled/postponed; unfortunately, a funeral will be replacing it, one of "B"'s friends, who should have had three more years according to the doctors (recently), but it turned out to be less than three more months. Just retired, too- let that be a lesson about deferral, I suppose.

Sadly, it might well have been preventable- she'd discontinued her post surgery (for cancer) drugs shortly after surgery several years ago (when she had a very good prognosis from her oncologist) because she didn't like the side effects, without telling her doctor or husband. Hadn't been feeling as good as normal six months ago, and tests showed tumor cell markers way up.

Maybe Sunday...

First tasks will be gluing up top module front panels, then routing and cutting. One test mule and two for real.

[JonMarsh]

Some work in progress...

A bit of free time, some glue and clamps, and a tiny bit of progress...





Three inch thick front panels to be... these are going to be heavy!!

It's hot out in this September sun! 86 in the shade...

[JonMarsh]

Both bass bin front panels glued up, man are they stiff and dead! Just like I hoped!

[gbegland]

Both bass bin front panels glued up, man are they stiff and dead! Just like I hoped!

Yeah, 3 or 4 layers of Bamboo ply is pretty strong. My OB are rock solid with only a small support leg. Keeping it natural finish with the layers showing? Will look killer with large facets cut into it.

Greg

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, 3 or 4 layers of Bamboo ply is pretty strong. My OB are rock solid with only a small support leg. Keeping it natural finish with the layers showing? Will look killer with large facets cut into it.

Greg

That's the plan- will use fine silica powder in rub on poly to fill the pores of the "fossilized" calibamboo. (Silica powder from SystemThree- planning to use their epoxy for the main assembly work)

BTW, the angle iron is to keep everything trued/flat when clamping up.

[gbegland]

That's the plan- will use fine silica powder in rub on poly to fill the pores of the "fossilized" calibamboo. (Silica powder from SystemThree- planning to use their epoxy for the main assembly work)

BTW, the angle iron is to keep everything trued/flat when clamping up.

Can't wait to see the results. I think the fossilized is even harder than the regular stuff I used...at least looking at rating for flooring at Lumber Liquidators, it's listed quite a bit higher on the hardness scale.

[JonMarsh]

Maybe it should be listed higher on the hardness to work with, too!

It does have a very hard surface.

Loaded up some of the short 15" wide panels, started gluing up the top module front baffles today. Just one at a time, don't have enough of the smaller clamps to do two at once.





It's good to be moving forward with this and some other stuff now. I'm pretty jazzed about how all LBL cabinets should turn out- may be benchmark for stiffness and inertness possible for home DIY (compared with stuff Wilson, Magico, Rockport, Marten design do).

Hope to have all the cabinet work done by Thanksgiving, maybe fine tuning the system by XMAS break. Shouldn't put that in print or it will jinx it!

I figue if I can devote two half days each weekend, I have the chance to make good progress.

[dar47]

Maybe it should be listed higher on the hardness to work with, too!

It does have a very hard surface.

Loaded up some of the short 15" wide panels, started gluing up the top module front baffles today. Just one at a time, don't have enough of the smaller clamps to do two at once.





It's good to be moving forward with this and some other stuff now. I'm pretty jazzed about how all LBL cabinets should turn out- may be benchmark for stiffness and inertness possible for home DIY (compared with stuff Wilson, Magico, Rockport, Marten design do).

Hope to have all the cabinet work done by Thanksgiving, maybe fine tuning the system by XMAS break. Shouldn't put that in print or it will jinx it!

I figue if I can devote two half days each weekend, I have the chance to make good progress.

Looking great, Are you using epoxy to glue these panels up and do you have to rough sand those panels to give the epoxy or glue something to soak into to have grab?

[Hank]

SHEESH! Thickest baffles in captivity, they are. BTW, what's the current best source for bamboo?

[JonMarsh]

Actually, the surface of the Fossilized bamboo, while hard and flat, does have a fair amount of slit like pores. That's one reason I mention that I'd researched ways to fill them during the finishing process.

This pick of the Fossilized Bamboo is somewhat darker than what I have; maybe a photography issue.



This smaller thumbnail image is more representative of the actual color/hue and layer thickness.




For the lamination work, I just use Titebond III, applied/spread with a foam paint roller (love those foam rollers and foam brushes); it's very easy to get a well controlled smooth coat. While the Titebond instruction say to let it sit up 30 minutes before unclamping, and to not stress the joint for 24 hours, I'm giving them 3 hours before unclamping. I've used the Titebond III with other LBL to MDF laminating, and it's always worked perfectly. It's supposed to be completely waterproof (not really an issue) but it also seems to adhere better to a wider range of woods and be stronger. Good stuff. I'm a bit of a glue fanatic, so I don't make that recommendation lightly.

All the rest of the gluing I plan to use SystemThree epoxy (pays to shop on Amazon for a good price), probably with silica filler mixed int so that it's a little thicker going on, easier to work with (more like my favorite marine epoxy, but without the color). Best laid plans of mice and men, and all...

Hank, here in California, I use Calibamboo,

Calibamboo

But they have warehouses around the country and support the USA (48 states) and Canada. Minimum order on LBL plywood is two sheets (typically around $400-$500). I ordered 6 4'x6' sheets last February; was about $1200, plus $150 freight, delivered to the street side. Only took a few days to get here from their warehouse in Southern CA.

There will be a lot of challenges in this, particularly manually cutting the pieces for the top module assembly to the required accuracy and dimensions. I think I have it in hand, but we'll see.

A Woodpeck bevel gauge and angle reference plate (one time tool builds) are an important part of my newer toolset for this project.






As William Shakespeare was quoted as saying, "There's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip"- sure this applies to this project, so I just have to work a little harder (maybe a LOT harder and smarter!) to have a steady and sure hand.

[gbegland]

Brand new blades and bits, yes? Since it's a grass really, not wood, it tends to split and shred somewhat easily when cutting across the grain. Not sure if fossilized is better in the regard since the strands are more random...

Greg

[JonMarsh]

Brand new blades and bits, yes? Since it's a grass really, not wood, it tends to split and shred somewhat easily when cutting across the grain. Not sure if fossilized is better in the regard since the strands are more random...

Greg

Oh, yes, that's definitely a given- haven't been doing any finish cuts yet, but will be using all new router bits and blades- gotta check my saw blade stash, see if I've got something to tide me over or need to go to Woodcraft or Amazon to stock up! Actually, I put a new blade in the Craftsman/Ryobi last February for the first cuts on the LBL ply, and it looks pretty good still, but I still might pop a fresh one in for the next stage. I mean, it would be totally dumb and dumber to have yield loss on this for lack of a new premium blade! I've had very good results with difficult applications with the Forrest Woodworker blades of different types, depending on the application.

[gbegland]

Maybe you could borrow an extra sharp, laser edge Sith blade from the Dark Lord...

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, that's what I need, CNC driven gigawatt lasers!

But would there be scorch marks? Hmmm, maybe I'd better stick with Freud or Forrest until we debug that kind of tech...

[JonMarsh]

Making sawdust and sweat

It's about 95 in the shade, no worries of catching a cold!

Various ripping (MDF head module) and crosscut operations today (top module and bass bin front panels). My humble Craftsman/Ryobi Frankenstein-saw is operating at the limits of it's capabilities, but so far, it is cutting it, figuratively and literally. BTW, the raw bass bin front panels weigh about 75 lb. before starting cutting operations.

Picked up a new plunge router on sale today, and got one of my Hitachi M12V's out of storage- gonna need a serious router on the front panels.

Measure six times, cut once.

[gbegland]

I better wake up tomorrow and see some picts. :W

[JonMarsh]

I was too busy working to take pics- and it was even hotter today, precluding working outside. My little Sony NEX-7 just sat on the sidelines. Next weekend is a reasonable bet, I hope... plan to do the front panel routing on all five panels, then tackle the bevel cuts and fancy stuff. Hope it's not so hot next weekend. Did glue up the MDF top module front panel pieces for the for the N26 test mule. Man, the BORG MDF feels mighty mushy after working on the LBL play for a couple of weekends.

Seems to me like the weather gods haven't been smiling on me, as the weekends previous to starting this were much cooler. Have to get going, as it could turn rainy anytime in October in Northern CA, precluding patio work.

That's something else interesting about the current situation, as besides in room gated measurements, I should be able to do outdoor measurements also.

[dlneubec]

Keep in mind we're developing a version based on TransducerLabs N26, and adapting this to the Be 6640 would be pretty straight forward. I'm building a test mule as well as a pair from LBL.

Transducer Labs should also have it's BE model, the N28BE (round face plate)available by the end of the year. Preliminary results are showing a sensitivity of at least 95db.

[JonMarsh]

Transducer Labs should also have it's BE model, the N28BE (round face plate)available by the end of the year. Preliminary results are showing a sensitivity of at least 95db.

Yeah, that's what Michael Bell had found out from them- they're also working on a round faceplate, which is what Michael is waiting for.

I'm also considering the Jantzen JDT-1024. Wish I had more test data on it, but I have heard it in a system. The SS 6640's I have are very good, but may be edged out by the JDT-1024. Without running them in the same system, it's hard to say. There's no denying that the high dome breakup frequency and relatively low Q seem to contribute to a lack of distortion resonance amplification by the dome itself compared with metal dome tweeters.

Whether there's a real benefit to move from Be to diamond is yet to be seen...

[dlneubec]

Also, worthy of note. Anyone who wants to try one of the Transducer Labs ceramic tweeters, they have sent a limited supply of them to Meniscus to sell at a discounted rate. I beilieve they have them for under $100 each.

The only difference is that they used a heavier glue configuration on these, so they have about a .8db sensitivity loss compared to the standard version. If you don't need the extra .8db then you can save yourself $65 or so on a pair.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the heads up, Dan... If I didn't already have three more pairs, I'd be looking into that for certain! :T

[JonMarsh]

Work work all morning, but made some great progress on a particular problem, after an inspiration in the middle of the night.

Since then, just getting ready for tomorrow's sawdust session- picked up a full set of new router bits for what's coming up, another Ryobi 180 and a fresh Jasper jig for it, (don't you just hate using stale Jasper jigs? I mean, sheesh!), a new Woodworker II blade for the DeWalt table saw, and something new to try out, a 10" sanding disk and some sanding pads to use in the saw- all from my relatively local Woodcraft store. I also brought home on of the Aurasound NS-12's as a safety check to triple check the woofer hole sizes.




Handling the drivers is getting me jazzed, but what's really getting me excited is the LBL pieces I've cut so far, or more particularly, the one's I've glued up.

A friend from Munich for whom we've been discussing some current evaluations and upgrades for his system is coming to the US and will be in the Bay are December 9- he's thrown down the gauntlet and challenged me to try to get the pair built by then. I should probably respond that if I have them ready, he has to bring his TotalDAC D1 to demo on the system (he's been comparing the Meitner DAC2x and MSB's Platinum against the D1, decided clearly and favorably for the D1 at this point- something else to put on my "some day" list).

Standard is black...





Silver is an option I think I prefer.



(it's a 24/192 NOS (Non Over Sampling) discrete R2R ladder DAC built with custom programmed FPGA's and Vishay 0.01% foil resistors. It includes a built in 69 bit digital volume control, custom adaptive FIR filters, the XMOS USB chip interface for those liking USB, and quite interestingly, a 10 msec FIFO input buffer for jitter reduction. No resampling or SRC for jitter reduction. Makes me drool just to think about it- has various options, including a full balanced version (as in balanced DAC's), and electronic crossover versions. Made in France; no US dealers, though it is distributed in the Far East.

Sigh.... I don't think Santa Claus is going to be that nice to me this year... maybe I'll have to crack the savings bank for one of these.

Regardless, big wood cutting plans for tomorrow!

[Johnloudb]

Really, a discrete R2R ladder DAC huh. I remember that in school, when they were discussing digital to analog conversion in one of my first engineering electronics classes. Is this different than DAC chips do. I know there are lots different DAC circuits out there. Nice to hear that the good old descrete R2R ladder is about as good as gets.

[dar47]

With all these crazy good new dacs how much distortion do our passive cross overs add to the signal path?

[JonMarsh]

Really, a discrete R2R ladder DAC huh. I remember that in school, when they were discussing digital to analog conversion in one of my first engineering electronics classes. Is this different than DAC chips do. I know there are lots different DAC circuits out there. Nice to hear that the good old descrete R2R ladder is about as good as gets.

R2/R Ladder DACs are relatively rare, as are Non Oversampling DACs. There is a definite coterie of listeners who prefer NOS because of the subjective high frequency characteristics of more modern DAC chips.

In order to do NOS you need an N-bit LPCM DAC, where N is the number of bits. Since no modern DAC chip is of this type (they are all either 1-bit sigma-delta, multi-level sigma delta, or a hybrid few bit PCM plus sigma-delta), this is why you always see NOS enthusiasts (particularly the DIY enthusiasts) using old chips like the Philips TDA 1541.

Achieving high measured linearity and excellent sonics is not a trivial proposition, and Vincent's original model (A1) and the D1 have undergone a continuous process of refinement and update with new options added depending on the potential owner's requirements. The A1 and D1 use 96 Vishay foil resistors per channel, for the single ended version. (The D1 in dual DAC mode and balanced output uses double this number- the resistor cost alone accounts for 30% of the selling price of the unit).

The noise performance and dynamic range are quite remarkable- note the noise floor reproducing a 24 bit -110dBFS sine wave.




Other products that use high end approaches to R2/R ladder DACs include top models from Meitner, Lawry, MSB, and dCS.

Another key interesting point in the configuration of the original A1 TotalDAC and the D1 is jitter control- a 10 msec input FIFO is used to store the incoming digital signal and dole it out asynchronously to the DAC stage with local oscillator. This technique is now implemented in the new PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC MkII, with the nome de plume of Digital Lens, and according to the Computer Audiophile, the Digital Lens (10msec FIFO buffer!) improves the performance of the MKII so much over the MK1 that he considers the MK1 (or the MkII with it turned off) "broken".


In the case of my friend in Munich, some special shunt regulators he'd been using for his Zodiac Golds were switched to the D1, with notable sonic improvements- Vincent confirmed this and will likely offer a similar option some time in 2013. Vincent also offers configurations with or without the USB input, and Dual DAC versions with electronic crossover functions built in to the DSP, with high and low pass channel outputs, calculated at 69 bit for high linearity, like the volume control.

Sacré bleu!


Anyway, with my friend's feedback and other info I've been able to collect, you may understand why I'm intrigued.

The only thing weirder I've been looking at lately is a RAW file converter written by a rather smart Russian guy...

[JonMarsh]

With all these crazy good new dacs how much distortion do our passive cross overs add to the signal path?

Well, a well designed passive crossover shouldn't add much distortion, compared to the drivers themselves. That assumes air core coils, and capacitors of high quality construction without dielectric absorption issues or vibration induced non linearities.

My own experience over 40 years suggests that the distortion products of electronics and driver are quite different in regards to the subjective results. Not that there isn't room for plenty of improvement with drivers, but with the best of DIY drivers having large signal non-linearity in the -70 dB range, things are mighty good these days, compared with past decades.

My own experience is that I can easily hear the difference and have a strong preference between say, a Benchmark DAC1 (which I've owned) and a Berkeley Alpha DAC (which I own) on a modest but well designed set of DIY speakers (Modula MT or Modula XE, for example). As the rest of the system improves in resolving power, these differences become more important. A local work colleague didn't really believe this, and I proved it to him by 100% identification of which DAC was playing (level matched) on first a pair of Modulas, then on some Logitech computer speakers (self powered), and my Audioengine A5N. He asked how I did it, and I said, maybe you want to listen to some live music more often, and I don't mean AC/DC.

[JonMarsh]

Today, a boy became a man...

I bought my first (and hopefully last!) 12" blade dual bevel sliding compound miter saw...



It was chosen after reviewing the specifics of my needs in this project and some others I'm considering, and after a lot of thought last night, about the concept of precision and repeatability, as epitomized in this picture, of the measurement of my ripped front panels for 15" wide.





I decided it was a necessary investment considering what I'm trying to build. I think the DWS780 is one of the best conceived and designed models on the market, after quite a bit of research this weekend. We'll see how I feel a few weeks from now!

[dlneubec]

Today, a boy became a man...

I bought my first (and hopefully last!) 12" blade dual bevel sliding compound miter saw...



It was chosen after reviewing the specifics of my needs in this project and some others I'm considering, and after a lot of thought last night, about the concept of precision and repeatability, as epitomized in this picture, of the measurement of my ripped front panels for 15" wide.





I decided it was a necessary investment considering what I'm trying to build. I think the DWS780 is one of the best conceived and designed models on the market, after quite a bit of research this weekend. We'll see how I feel a few weeks from now!

Cool Jon, I have a cheap harbor Frieght that works ok, but is onlly for much smaller scale. One of those would be another thing.

However, I picked up, for free 8O , a mint condition 1970 or so Sears Craftsman Radial Arm saw that I have yet to try. Back then, the Craftman stuff was very good quality. It is in near perfect condition and is built from almost entirely steel and aluminum, except for the switch buttons. An older gentleman in the neighborhood, who had walked by and seen me working on speakers in the past, stopped by to offer it to me. He was moving and was no longer using it and didn't want to move it. He even had his movers dfrop it off at my house. It's amazing the number of things it can do, though I haven't done anything so far but read the owners manual. It is a 10" though, so it duplicates my table saw in many ways.