Three Way Evil Design Study

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

Any feel for how well these are performing at moderate to high levels...... for us inquiring headbangers!! Also, my subs sounded good with my Geddes Abbeys, but sounded great with my SoundLab M1's. Initially setup the M1's to begin the process of putting them up for sale. Now I'm not so sure!! So many toys... so little time.

Tom

Well, I only have one running, and it is pretty effortless at levels that would get me in a lot of trouble here except for at 1 or 2 in the afternoon when everyone is away. They're the most capable system in that regard that I've had, and one of the things I wanted to improve in the Ardent MKII. They'll play louder and cleaner than the X1 SLAM Klone.

So, think about it... 4 NS12's. Pretty well defined crossover (3rd order) controlling the driver bandwidth- mid crossed at 250 and 2500. They'd get me into trouble here, and they probably will at my GF's. :W

Glad to hear you're having fun with your Soundlab's!

you know, I'm really starting to warm to the idea of using woofers that sort of span the area between a conventional woofer and a sub driver- the NS12's are great in that aspect. I think these new 8-3/4" Wavecor's (10.5mm Xmax) will be similar.

[ColoradoTom]

So, think about it... 4 NS12's.

I don't know if you remember but I build four (temporary) subs with the NS12's - each one about 80 liters. In my home theater they sound VERY good - actually scared the crap out of my daughters boyfriend with a couple of the new bluray discs over the past month. Very clean and quite deep given the room boost.

Might move the Abbeys into the theater room - they'd have headroom to spare. Just ordered the new upgraded toriods for my Soundlabs. Cleared out my woodworking projects for the summer so I have time to look at this build. Any thoughts on substituting BB for the LBL??

Tom

[JonMarsh]

I don't know if you remember but I build four (temporary) subs with the NS12's - each one about 80 liters. In my home theater they sound VERY good - actually scared the crap out of my daughters boyfriend with a couple of the new bluray discs over the past month. Very clean and quite deep given the room boost.

Might move the Abbeys into the theater room - they'd have headroom to spare. Just ordered the new upgraded toriods for my Soundlabs. Cleared out my woodworking projects for the summer so I have time to look at this build.

Any thoughts on substituting BB for the LBL??

Tom

Structurally I think it would be fine- true BB ply, of course- would you conventionally veneer them then, afterwards? I'm sort of cheating this way, with the LBL having such a hard and reasonably attractive surface finish- I doubt I'll do much work again without going LBL.

The front panel net thickness is 3". For both the top and bottom modules. I've got to figure out if my Element will handle 63" front to back to decide if I glue them together or not. :W
Side walls and backs are 1"- LBL plus MDF. I think that would probably work pretty well still in BB ply. Do you want to see the PDF's in their current state? I was planning a tweak in the upper module model to reflect the inside angle miter I used so that the top is a continuous piece in appearance, too. I should get around to that during this next month. There's a lot on the plate between these speakers, work, and getting ready for the June Coast to Coast hike in England.

[ColoradoTom]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#696969][FONT=lucida sans unicode]Structurally I think it would be fine- true BB ply, of course- would you conventionally veneer them then, afterwards? I'm sort of cheating this way, with the LBL having such a hard and reasonably attractive surface finish- I doubt I'll do much work again without going LBL.

The front panel net thickness is 3". For both the top and bottom modules. I've got to figure out if my Element will handle 63" front to back to decide if I glue them together or not. :W
Side walls and backs are 1"- LBL plus MDF. I think that would probably work pretty well still in BB ply. Do you want to see the PDF's in their current state? I was planning a tweak in the upper module model to reflect the inside angle miter I used so that the top is a continuous piece in appearance, too. I should get around to that during this next month. There's a lot on the plate between these speakers, work, and getting ready for the June Coast to Coast hike in England.

Good to hear about the BB... can't find a local source of LBL here in Denver. I have about 70 board feet of black walnut that I'm planning on cutting into matched pieces of 1/8 inch veneer.... would look nice on a project like this! Kinda sick, but I really enjoy the finish parts of my woodworking projects. I go into this sort of "Zen" mode!

PDF's would be nice, but not if it requires you to do any work.

My plate is pretty full as well! Work is VERY busy for me right now - lots of work in the oil industry. I also start coaching my daughters tennis team next week and we've got lots going on with my oldest daughter as she prepares to attend Colorado School of Mines (Petroleum/Chemical Engineering) next Fall. Probably won't get started on anything new until late March/early April.

Your England trip sounds like fun...... I'll be on the beach in Anguilla in June!!arty:

Tom

[Carl V]

I've done 7 day walk thru the Cotswold in On Honor of Dame Beatrix Potter
the Coast to coast has always appealed to me. Just could never fined anybody
up to the 180 mile journey. My hat's off to you.

Agree about the quality of Aurasound drivers.

[JonMarsh]

I've done 7 day walk thru the Cotswold in On Honor of Dame Beatrix Potter
the Coast to coast has always appealed to me. Just could never fined anybody
up to the 180 mile journey. My hat's off to you.

Agree about the quality of Aurasound drivers.

We're really looking forward to it- we actually signed up for the longest version with two extra days in the Lake District. I hope we get some decent light at least a few days (for photography). Even the 7 day walk has got to be a great experience, Carl, as long as you don't mind rain! :W

[bbcmp1979]

My god that look stunning. I've been staring at it the last 15 minutes and just couldn't take my eyes off of it. :-)

[JonMarsh]

My god that look stunning. I've been staring at it the last 15 minutes and just couldn't take my eyes off of it. :-)

Yes, Troel's newest project, an homage to Wilson Audio, is a nice piece of design and craftsmanship. Why don't you go build one? :W I bet you'd be pretty happy with how it sounds! Troels has a very high level of both design capability and productivity- makes me wonder if he even has a day job, considering all the stuff he's turned out in the last few years! Or maybe that is his day job- doing nice designs with Jantzen crossover parts and ATC drivers and promoting them - however he works it, hats off!

[JonMarsh]

I've done 7 day walk thru the Cotswold in On Honor of Dame Beatrix Potter
the Coast to coast has always appealed to me. Just could never fined anybody
up to the 180 mile journey. My hat's off to you.

Agree about the quality of Aurasound drivers.

A little more on this- last year we did a Vienna to Prague outing with the Sierra Club- that was about 130 miles altogether, and just six months after GF had a hip replacement (she was very serious about her physical therapy and recovery process- it was a bit scary seeing the affect on her, the first several weeks, but by 6-8 weeks she was doing very well- something about the spirit of a competitive runner, I suppose). But we aren't underestimating what this will involve, and are making a big push for both physical conditioning on a daily basis and fitting some longer hikes in soon. June 1 isn't that far off.


The last trip was certainly worth it- on many levels- I have high hopes for this one, too.

[Steve Manning]

Nice pictures Jon ...... The England trip sounds like fun, I was born and raised in a town called Ipswich over there. One of these days I'd like to get back over and see how things have changed.

As a side note .... how are you uploading your pictures? Your getting them to show up in your posts as I want, but am doing something wrong!

[JonMarsh]

I have a Photo-bucket Pro account; it automagically compresses the pictures even more when uploaded, but keeps OK quality for posting on a forum. When viewing my pictures through Photo-bucket, it has options to click and create forum image linking code automatically and load it into the clipboard buffer, so I just paste that directly into the post. I'm lazy or efficient, depending on which way you want to spin it!

Hope you get back to Ipswich someday, I've always enjoyed the few times I've been to England.

[5th element]

I live in Manchester and have camped near the lakes in the lake district many times, the rain...don't remind me about the rain.

[JonMarsh]

I live in Manchester and have camped near the lakes in the lake district many times, the rain...don't remind me about the rain.

Yes, but where we're going, and the time of the year, it's all about the rain! :B :W

[JonMarsh]

Totally OT- Organs again...

Well, just to explain a little more what's interesting about the organ thing... to me... in particularly, there's an Italian company, KeyB, which has been moving their manufacturing from Italy to the US, in Missouri (yeah, we're a low cost producer nation- did you get the memo? )

They have been making a number of products, including single keyboard portables, a Midi control unit, and dual keyboard units; they have a new version of their KeyB Duo, the MkIII, getting ready for release. In fact, Wayne from B3 Guys in Nashville (he's a nice guy to talk to) is driving to their factor in Missouri this Sunday, because they have some of the Italian management coming over, and possibly one or two of their endorsers, to mark the occasion of the first KeyB Duo III shipments (at least, that's the story I'm getting from Wayne).

In my mind, it's a step up from Hammond's own portable offerings, because it offers the FULL controls of a standard B3 (dual drawbar sets for each manual, reverse key presets (programmable), all the same function controls as the original B3, plus realtime controls for tuning the presentation of the organ (tone, key click, cross talk, overdrive) and a pitch bend wheel, for all you ELP fans. All in real time without LCD panels and buried menus.

Also has a pretty good stereo Leslie simulation built in, plus standard 11 pin outputs to work with modern Leslie cabinets, like the portable 3300, or the traditional XB122.


Musically, here's a solo example of some nice blues playing on the KeyB Duo. There are tons of artists of course who have used these in one fashion or another; even one of the recent Spyro Gyra albums features quite a bit of good B3 work, with decent recording quality (not easy to do- a minimum of 3 mikes and careful stereo presentation). This was done with the last generation version of the KeyB Duo, the MkII.

http://vimeo.com/blu2zero/studioblues-marsico

In case you haven't figured this out by now, I want...

We all have to have dreams, right?

[5th element]

See, that's what you're supposed to buy instead of diamond tweeters :B

[Steve Manning]

I have a Photo-bucket Pro account; it automagically compresses the pictures even more when uploaded, but keeps OK quality for posting on a forum. When viewing my pictures through Photo-bucket, it has options to click and create forum image linking code automatically and load it into the clipboard buffer, so I just paste that directly into the post. I'm lazy or efficient, depending on which way you want to spin it!

Hope you get back to Ipswich someday, I've always enjoyed the few times I've been to England.

Thanks for the info Jon, sounds like a nice simple and efficient way to post your pictures. Also, I think you will like the Lake District, I still remember enjoying my visit there from when I was a kid, and if I do recall, it was sunny!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the info Jon, sounds like a nice simple and efficient way to post your pictures. Also, I think you will like the Lake District, I still remember enjoying my visit there from when I was a kid, and if I do recall, it was sunny!

Here are a few shots by a photographer acquaintance taken back in 2006 which have whetted my appetite for the Lake District (actually have many more).













At work they call me the "Art Director" because of the big prints hanging all over my cubical from the last trip, but they're expecting more from this upcoming trip... :roll:

I'm taking my medium format Pentax and a Sigma DP3 Merrill for when I don't want to carry much weight. I've got it narrowed down to just three lenses for the Pentax; they're all "antiques" in a way, designed for the 67 series film cameras, but they work great on mine with the Pentax 67 to 645 adapter.

[JonMarsh]

See, that's what you're supposed to buy instead of diamond tweeters :B

No kidding! Same price, actually... 2 tweeters or one organ!

I quit playing full time in the mid 70's, and the last time I did a paid public gig was April 1986. Have a lot of work to do if I want to get some chops back; I'm thinking that waiting until I'm actually retired would be waiting too long...

[CharlieLaub]

It may not be obvious, but this does fit more or less with my revised target concept, based on Linkwitz's studies with Don Barringer and his Version 2 curve.

Hi Jon,

I thought that the Linkwitz/Barringer study was done for the Orion or similar dipole speaker. The power response is bound to be very different for that kind of source, versus your speaker. A monopole would likely have a sagging power response in the upper octaves without any reduction in input voltage like what is shown above.

Given that the perceived total sound at the listening position comes from both the direct and indirect (room reflected) sound, do you think that their "best sounding" curve would be "best" for this speaker?

-Charlie

[mkc]

makes me wonder if he even has a day job, considering all the stuff he's turned out in the last few years! Or maybe that is his day job- doing nice designs with Jantzen crossover parts and ATC drivers and promoting them - however he works it, hats off!

As far as I know he has a day job as a biochemist or something like that. But, you are right. His productivity is amazing.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

I thought that the Linkwitz/Barringer study was done for the Orion or similar dipole speaker. The power response is bound to be very different for that kind of source, versus your speaker. A monopole would likely have a sagging power response in the upper octaves without any reduction in input voltage like what is shown above.

Given that the perceived total sound at the listening position comes from both the direct and indirect (room reflected) sound, do you think that their "best sounding" curve would be "best" for this speaker?

-Charlie

A very valid question, Charlie. For a monopole system, due to the cabinet design and drivers, there's a pretty wide dispersion. Monopoles will be inherently more room sensitive. One of slightly lesser roll off curves may be more suitable- but frankly, I plan to add a toggle switch and be able to have at least two settings.

Could be the version 1 curve is best for these. Withe my experience with the Ardent and Modula Xtreme, I don't think dead flat is best. The wider the dispersion, the less I think so!

And I'm not going to finalize the voicing until they're over at GF's, and I have the new DAC. But they sound very good at home like this with a wide range of material, and are quite comfortable at higher volumes. Y'all can pick the voicing to pieces at the Northern CA DIY, if they get there! With external crossovers, it's easy to fix!

[JonMarsh]

As far as I know he has a day job as a biochemist or something like that. But, you are right. His productivity is amazing.

That's incredible!

[Paul W]

Jon,

Regarding the "listening curve" here's a very interesting thread.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/psychoacoustically-correct-room-correction.64094/#ixzz2MKVo8oBN

Bob Katz is probably worth reading!

[JonMarsh]

Yes, I've read some of Bob's stuff in the past, and I do have REW, what I'm still lacking is some more spare time to work with it. I suspect I'll find a lot to like, based on the feature set update for REW 5. OTOH, I've had so much to get done lately, my focus in the near term has been sticking with tools that I've somewhat mastered... in principle REW should be able to do a lot more from what I've read than Fuzzemeasure, but the latter has the stuff I need to measure drivers, evaluate baffle radiation and so forth, and get some speakers designed!

Also, when playing with some DSP EQ in my LIO-8, my experience (which mirrors some other folks on Hometheater Shack) is that I tend to prefer a straight line curve with a slight downtilt over one like the above posted (which at -6 dB at 20 kHz is probably fine for HT but not music- and a lot of the emphasis for REW is HT)- though I'm sure how you measure that, the room acoustic and RT will all influence perception.

Lots of things to ponder when there's more time-

[Paul W]

I've been listening to a straight tilt for a couple of years but, though a 3-5db straight tilt sounded better than flat, it didn't reduce sibilance to a satisfactory level. So, I tried a slight variation of Bob's curve by boosting 1k to almost flat...about 1db straight tilt from 100-1k folllowed by a slightly steeper straight tilt from 1k to my original starting point at 10k. Introducing that small knee reduced apparent sibilance even though that range is well above 1k. Guess it makes sense since levels are all relative.

[JonMarsh]

Well, the important thing here, is that it sounds like you've found something that works for you. And I'll keep in it mind when looking at this in the future- thanks for sharing your experience. As much as source material varies in it's tonality and likely mastering, probably any one curve is going to be a bit of a compromise, which is another reason I expect to probably have a level/curve switch of some type in the final crossover, probably labeled something like "Audiophile/Standard". :W

[gbegland]

I was at Bob's a few weekends ago doing some rewiring and other items. I listened to his new digitally processed monitor set-up referenced in that thread. I thought they sounded a little "polite" for my tastes. I would have lifted the top end to be more around -3 to -4 dB rather than the -6 he's running now. He uses Revel Gem2 paired with JL subs. They used to be crossed with a custom Marchand module and EQ'd with a special Meyer Sound parametric model. Now it's all digital "in the box" run from his mastering computer. He sits pretty close to the monitors are they are well away from the walls, so power response is slightly less of an issue there. Really like large headphones in a sense.

It sounds very nice, but honestly those prototype monitors we just built with the OEM Raal and the Neo8-S are far more resolving....sssshhhhh, don't tell Bob.

I think my house curve is a little more like Pauls, with a downward slope right from the bass range, not up at 1KHz, but the whole slope only ends around -3dB.

Greg

[5th element]

Sibilance typically occurs at about 5k, but depending on the word uttered can cover from around 2-10k. This helps explain why mid/bass breakup can influence the sound significantly if handled incorrectly and people usually assume that it's the tweeter.

For what it's worth, with my OBs I ended up with a downward tilt, but with the monopoles + CD tweeter with 6.5" waveguide, flat sounds fantastic without sounding anything close to too bright, or having trouble with sibilance. In fact the pleasing way in which the WG handles sibilance is one of its strong points. I must add though, that getting the tweeter level right with the WG seemed far more critical than with other designs otherwise the sound was way too hot and in an unpleasant in your face kind of way, whereas with non WG designs things just sound a little bright.

[Paul W]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply "one size fits all". Different DI in different rooms will likely require different curves...and recordings really are all over the map. Even though it makes some sense, I didn't expect to hear such a difference in relative sibilance. Overall, early results sound very relaxed and natural, so I'll be tweaking the approach for a while.

[JonMarsh]

Sibilance typically occurs at about 5k, but depending on the word uttered can cover from around 2-10k. This helps explain why mid/bass breakup can influence the sound significantly if handled incorrectly and people usually assume that it's the tweeter.

For what it's worth, with my OBs I ended up with a downward tilt, but with the monopoles + CD tweeter with 6.5" waveguide, flat sounds fantastic without sounding anything close to too bright, or having trouble with sibilance. In fact the pleasing way in which the WG handles sibilance is one of its strong points. I must add though, that getting the tweeter level right with the WG seemed far more critical than with other designs otherwise the sound was way too hot and in an unpleasant in your face kind of way, whereas with non WG designs things just sound a little bright.

I think you've personally identified an important parameter, especially if not listening in the near field, that the power response and dispersion are quite important to the perception as well as the nominal axial response.

I also find that how clean the rest of chain behaves is quite important, too- for example, between one popular $1,000 DAC and the NAD M51, I find there's a substantial difference in what I call resolution or grunge (or lack of it!) in the presence region to high end, which mitigates to degree the usual effects of brightness. In other words, what might be perceived as a little bright or forward is MUCH more annoying if that is bringing distortion products to the fore in a frequency range the ear is quite sensitive, but is much less objectionable (to me) if everything is relatively crystal clear/pristine.

The improved mastering in some recent CD issues of really old records seems to highlight this- (listening to some old Hollies and Steeleye Span re-issues) yes, the tonal balance and mix and presentation is still that of old recording gear from the late 60's or early 70's, but now, it's more as if I'm hearing the analog master tape than a CD dub of it. Not all the way there, by any means, but often much closer. And as a lover of many kinds of old as well as new music, that's a big deal to me, and why I'm shelling out for an even more expensive DAC and possibly one of their reclockers (I get a special deal on it equivalent to the combined purchase for the rest of 2013 if I decide to "pull the trigger").

This is a complex topic, and while there's a lot of people trying to find a neat formula for how to approach it, I think it's rather dependent on the room acoustics, treatments, program material, power response, etc- but I'm enjoying the fact that a number of you are thinking in these terms and working out your own solutions- this is something to discuss more, perhaps consolidate some of these posts in a separate thread and continue on the topic as time and energy permit-

Thanks Greg, Fifth Element and Paul!

[jim1961]

Here are a few shots by a photographer acquaintance taken back in 2006 which have whetted my appetite for the Lake District (actually have many more).


At work they call me the "Art Director" because of the big prints hanging all over my cubical from the last trip, but they're expecting more from this upcoming trip... :roll:

I'm taking my medium format Pentax and a Sigma DP3 Merrill for when I don't want to carry much weight. I've got it narrowed down to just three lenses for the Pentax; they're all "antiques" in a way, designed for the 67 series film cameras, but they work great on mine with the Pentax 67 to 645 adapter.

Stunning photography! Really!

[jim1961]

Jon,

Regarding the "listening curve" here's a very interesting thread.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/psychoacoustically-correct-room-correction.64094/#ixzz2MKVo8oBN

Bob Katz is probably worth reading!

The black line is the original. I added the red to illustrate about what my personal preferences are. Of course this varies somewhat based on the type of music im listening to. For me, -6db @10k is a bit much. And I like a bit more (1-2db) in the 20-35hz range than I am indicating here (I really like to FEEL the music)

[jim1961]

I think you've personally identified an important parameter, especially if not listening in the near field, that the power response and dispersion are quite important to the perception as well as the nominal axial response.

I also find that how clean the rest of chain behaves is quite important, too- for example, between one popular $1,000 DAC and the NAD M51, I find there's a substantial difference in what I call resolution or grunge (or lack of it!) in the presence region to high end, which mitigates to degree the usual effects of brightness. In other words, what might be perceived as a little bright or forward is MUCH more annoying if that is bringing distortion products to the fore in a frequency range the ear is quite sensitive, but is much less objectionable (to me) if everything is relatively crystal clear/pristine.

The improved mastering in some recent CD issues of really old records seems to highlight this- (listening to some old Hollies and Steeleye Span re-issues) yes, the tonal balance and mix and presentation is still that of old recording gear from the late 60's or early 70's, but now, it's more as if I'm hearing the analog master tape than a CD dub of it. Not all the way there, by any means, but often much closer. And as a lover of many kinds of old as well as new music, that's a big deal to me, and why I'm shelling out for an even more expensive DAC and possibly one of their reclockers (I get a special deal on it equivalent to the combined purchase for the rest of 2013 if I decide to "pull the trigger").

This is a complex topic, and while there's a lot of people trying to find a neat formula for how to approach it, I think it's rather dependent on the room acoustics, treatments, program material, power response, etc- but I'm enjoying the fact that a number of you are thinking in these terms and working out your own solutions- this is something to discuss more, perhaps consolidate some of these posts in a separate thread and continue on the topic as time and energy permit-

Thanks Greg, Fifth Element and Paul!

Many good points here, especially the ones concerning the room response playing a noticeable factor. In my mind, buying better gear should only be considered when the room is treated properly. What many people fail to realize (perhaps not people here) is that much of what they hear isn't the speaker (direct response), but reflections both separate from the direct sound and their inherent interaction and augmentation (in many cases malevolent) with the direct response itself.

Let me illustrate a phenomena I experienced. I was hearing something in the 2k-6k range that was really bothering me. At certain times, a note would hit in that range of frequencies and make me want to ring my ear. They sounded louder than they should, but my testing software said those frequencies were in line. So I then got caught in those charts that describe the human hearing curve, and thought maybe I was just ultra sensitive to those frequencies. At the time, I had an Parametric EQ in the signal path so I adjusted down those frequencies. Ah, yes, that was better. But after some time of additional listening, it became apparent I hadn't really addressed the problem at all, just made it less audible. In the end, I figured out that I was hearing comb filtering and further room treatment actually addressed the problem. I then turned up those frequencies I had previously diminished with the EQ and now they sounded fine.

I am sure folks here are aware of the "loudness wars" that permeate the CD industry. These Cd's are going to have a treble range that would lead one to believe that a stronger high end roll off would be quite welcome. On the other hand, vinyl lovers, especially those with tube gear have become accustomed to a warm and natural high end roll off. So in my experience anyway, there is a wide diversity of high end characteristics in source material, and when you try to get all your source material to sound a particular way, its problematic.

Now there have been /are some very nice CD remasters of older material that don't suffer from "loudness war syndrome" that have a more analog quality about them. I agree with you Jon on this.

At the end of the day, I don't see how one formula or approach can make everything sound right. But if you all are like me, you take your best sounding material and optimize your system, speakers and room to make that material sound its best. What else can we do? This has the unfortunate consequence of me favoring inferior music with great sound over better music with inferior sound (inferior masterings)

Yes, it is a complex issue. And the more I learn, the better I seem to be able to sort it out and know how to address specific issues. Threads like this serve this goal well

[JonMarsh]

Thinking about this at lunchtime today, and having been wanting to put some tuning tricks into the final crossover, my first pass on that in LspCAD looks flexible enough to give me a useful range of results without getting myself in big trouble.

Basically, one switch in the midrange section to had an approximately 2 dB contour/level tune for the upper midrange, and one switch in the tweeter section to adjust the tweeter level by 2 dB. Depending on how the combination is used, different "house curves" can be approximated; which is not to say that my choices for WHAT house curve to approximate won't get tweaked a bit once things are setup in their ultimate home.


This combination I call the "flat curve", for very smooth flat response at 30 degrees off axis from 100 Hz on up.




Transfer function:




SPL curve (predicted)




This I call the "Corner Curve" (or should it be Korner Kurve? :W )





Corner Transfer Function:




Corner SPL Plot:




And this approximate a mild tilt function:




With the Tilt Transfer Function:




And Tilt SPL Plot:



Let's see how this works out in the real world... mmm, Madisound is going to love me, buying more of those Mundorf resistors. Obviously they could be modified to be more pronounced in the effect, but maybe starting off a little more subtle is a good idea for now.

[JonMarsh]

OT Time... for those of you who are YES fans...

OK, there's really only one message I have here, if you're a Yes fan.

See this?



If you haven't bought it yet, buy it. If you don't think it's the best re-master and production of this album, I'll cheerfully (and skeptically) refund every penny (once you send me YOUR copy, so I can give it to a deserving friend).

If you're familiar with this album, all I can say is that this new remaster for SACD is breathtakingly clear and transparent, without shrillness, edge, grundge, or whatever. It sounds much closer to what I'd imagine the direct multi-channel feed from Eddie Oxford's original tape machine must have sounded like.. saying it sounds like live mic feeds would be going a little far, but it is CLEAN! Very good individual instrument and vocal harmonic integrity, in my opinion.


Oh, and that's the CD layer. I don't have an SACD player setup, and I haven't ripped this yet to my MacPro and converted to 13/176.4... needless to say, it's an even bigger motivation, considering the storage bin I have full of new unwrapped SACD's.

But I must stay on track for the speaker work, not get diverted in March.

So today I wrapped up the subwoofer build for GF, Hypex plate amp from Madisound and the new DVC 10" woofer from PE.







Will be testing it later this week, maybe put up a small post if anyone is interested. The Hypex unit is a pretty classy plate amp, nice EQ, and using their UCD CLASS D amplification.

Next today is some test updating for the Isiris crossover based on the last LspCAD work; the final parts haven't arrived, but I can play with things a bit tacking some stuff on.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend! Sunny and 60 here in Northern CA!

Next weekend is a long weekend for me, mandatory PTO before the end of March, so I'm taking the following Monday and Tuesday off. If things go according to plan, I'll be spraying the big cabinets by then.

[5th element]

Wow Jon you certainly are making your way through a respectable amount of drivers this time round. I think a quick and easy build thread for the sub would probably be a decent idea, I can see a lot of people perhaps wanting to build something, especially with those new Dayton subs, that's if they perform. Of course I wouldn't expect anything less considering their other premium driver lines. It'll be interesting to see how the Dayton sub compares, performance wise, to the Wavecor.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'll try to work that in- I've been saving info and some pictures. Mind, this is a "mini" build, with just the 10" driver- I sort of wish GF has been willing to tolerate something a little bigger, I would have moved up the cabinet and driver size. But for what she needs, this should be fine, and she says she's OK with the Isiris in the family room. Of course, she hasn't seen them in the LBL flesh yet, as it were, so everything is subject to change with little notice! The new "baby" sub is HER's, regardless of future events, as I'm asking her to toss the Sony sub. So it's built more to her needs.

Now, personally, I think the Wavecor and the Dayton are somewhat different beasts.

The Dayton is built as a typical long throw woofer with most of the focus being on behavior below 100 Hz, and has almost double the xmax of the Wavecor, and 19 mm versus 10.5 mm. OTOH, the Dayton DOES use a lot of copper above and below the gap, so inductivity modulation should be low- I'm expecting to see good HD numbers.

The Wavecor has an interesting pole piece structure, should have intrinsically low HD2 compared to many drivers (less mud in the sound at any level), and the cone appears well behaved beyond 2 kHz; it appears from the published data I could make a two way out of this part with an 1800 Hz crossover like the Modula MT. Not that I want to... and in 20 Liter net, an F3 of 42 Hz, and F6 of 32 Hz is realizable without any EQ.



Imagine the SW223BD01 in a 22L sealed PE Enclosure with an RS52 mid and the new SB26STCN tweeter up top... "ET Mini Me"? Not very sensitive, but enormous power handling and bottom end and SPL for that size box... 100 dB anechoic at 32 Hz at full song. I believe someone of a darker frame of mind has taken note of the possibilities...

[JonMarsh]

Something fresh sounding...



This is a jazz trio out of Michigan, most of this album was recorded at WKAR TV studio in Michigan state university. No obvious EQ, no dorking with the dynamic range, played live in studio- just some very nice tunes.

Available from "Big O records" through their web site and from CDBaby, I think.

http://www.organissimo.org/media.htm

Of course, it's an organ jazz trio. :W The recording quality is such that it could have easily been marketed as an audiophile type recording, though it may lack that last little iota of transparency, at least it's not brightened, sweetened, compressed, or otherwise screwed with.

BTW, the new Hiromi album is out, AND it's available in 24/192 from HD Tracks.




Also recommended.

Last, ordered the last batch of resistors needed to build the updates, and some Acoustastuff for the top modules.

[jim1961]

Also recommended.

I have Time Control and Another Mind, how does this one compare to those?

[JonMarsh]

Spiral is my all time favorite- I haven't really listened to this one, saving it for when I have these speakers finished and running in stereo. First thing I want to listen to on them in that mode is the title cut from my Spiral SACD rip to 24/176. A lot of dynamic range on that one; may have to send GF out of the room. I'm sure she doesn't realize what she's getting into, setting these up at her place... :B

[Jonasz]

Something fresh sounding...



This is a jazz trio out of Michigan, most of this album was recorded at WKAR TV studio in Michigan state university. No obvious EQ, no dorking with the dynamic range, played live in studio- just some very nice tunes.

Available from "Big O records" through their web site and from CDBaby, I think.

http://www.organissimo.org/media.htm

Of course, it's an organ jazz trio. :W The recording quality is such that it could have easily been marketed as an audiophile type recording, though it may lack that last little iota of transparency, at least it's not brightened, sweetened, compressed, or otherwise screwed with.

BTW, the new Hiromi album is out, AND it's available in 24/192 from HD Tracks.

These are also available on Spotify (OGG320) if you want to try before buying. Sounds pretty decent actually... ;-)

[JonMarsh]

Boom Box update

Will write this up proper soon. Just a "calibration update".


Near field, no xover, no EQ, fixed 12 Hz high pass filter (not defeatable)




With EQ, + 6 dB max, inflection point at 50 Hz; with (maroon) and without (blue) 120 Hz LP crossover.



Measurement SPL was only about 90 dB; distortion curves look suspiciously good... maybe too good. But the 10" DVC driver and the Hypex amp get the job done, though the so called owners manual is real vague about a lot of stuff. Initially I though the frequency for the EQ was the peaking frequency, but after some measurements determined it was the inflection frequency- i.e., starts to get applied below the stated frequency.

This is probably a "large" box by some for a sealed system, but then it doesn't need a Linkwitz/Riley transform to deal with the Qtc bump a smaller box would have. Curve looks nice for HT to me... gonna have to try Avatar with it over at the GF's.

[JonMarsh]

More OT nonsense...

Well, got an exciting and critical email about the new DAC and a special option just now being made available... :W :B

While I wanted the silver front panel version, I'd been concerned that the silver case might reflect too much random light inside the chasis, increasing the right half plane polarized noise floor...

After some discussions, a new option is available- as shown on the left! Silver front panel with black case, instead of silver cover as it normal, shown on the right!

I know I'll sleep much better tonight knowing this issue has been laid to rest.... :rofl:

[dar47]

Well, that's all nice and everything but did you do as planed and get those beasts sprayed? I think this was the last day of your extended weekend. 8O

[JonMarsh]

Well, that's all nice and everything but did you do as planed and get those beasts sprayed? I think this was the last day of your extended weekend. 8O

Tomorrow is, but things are very much running behind on several fronts due to work issues. Further complication is upcoming work travel, and covering for another colleague who's mother in law is critically ill, and GF needing to travel to East Coast due to death of her sister. (spraying setup was to be done ar her place). But I think I have a recovery plan, to still complete finishing before Northern CA DIY meet April 20.