Three Way Evil Design Study

[Johnloudb]

Hi Jon, looking good! Glad you've had some fun adventures this summer, you've earned it!!! I have yet to so much as venture outside of the states, but hope to do some of that in the future. Still I've had a pretty good summer! I do wish it would cool off some now, though! :hb

How's your speaker sounding to you so far ... Are you happy with how it's turned out so far? I know I've surely missed a lot of comments back in this thread.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon, looking good! Glad you've had some fun adventures this summer, you've earned it!!! I have yet to so much as venture outside of the states, but hope to do some of that in the future. Still I've had a pretty good summer! I do wish it would cool off some now, though! :hb

How's your speaker sounding to you so far ... Are you happy with how it's turned out so far? I know I've surely missed a lot of comments back in this thread.

HI John!

you know, with everything going on since late April, the funny thing is that I haven't had much time to work on these or to listen to them- since the Northern CA DIY on April 20 they were moved afterwards to GF's family room. They were only finished a day before the DIY meet! But after measuring and listening to them, and thinking about the final setup, my plan has been to rebuild the crossovers for a few reasons:

• The original test crossovers were semi-junk box crossovers, in that some components were taken from parts on hand, and things fitted around them
• The existing crossovers are too large to fit in the cabinets, but at this point I want to make a serious effort to get the crossovers inside the cabinets
• Re-design and tweaking in LspCAD has been focused on size reduction AND making the impedance curve more benign, as well as addressing issues in the upper bass/lower mids (a perceived dip, though it doesn't measure that way ... it's puzzling)
• Test a new set of iron core inductors for the woofer- so far, I've found issues with the sound of other cored inductors I've tried, but I'm going to give the 500W Erse inductors a spin- this also helps with the size reduction AND should reduce LF insertion loss by about 1 dB- i.e., the LF efficiency should go up about 1 dB
• Now that they're in the "design" location in GF's family room as regards boundary distances, I'm in a position to do the final voicing, though I may have to sweet talk GF into moving the couch back a little bit... :W

The LF rebuild is finished (last weekend, no pics yet), the HF rebuild about 1/2 of the way there- some parts for the midrange rebuild have been purchased, but no assembly work started. There is no network change on the midrange- only fixing some resistor values and eliminating some adjustment tweaks. I expect the schematic in the previous post on this page to be pretty close to final, but until we sit down with things, who knows?

I've got a few different disks selected for voicing tests, including acoustic jazz and classical, some older recordings (like the recent FIM remaster of Jazz at the Pawnshop, and the special CD version of "The King James Version" that was taken in 20 bits off the source and than dithered down to 16 bits for CD (the right way to do it), and some cool new ones (a lot of "extracted" SACD's to 24/176). It should be fun; I don't want to hurry, as I don't want to be taking apart the crossovers again six months down the road!

I should also update the presentation I put together for the Northern CA DIY meet- and include it in the build thread. A lot of people were wondering how I could get away with the driver positioning and make the HF crossover work properly. That was the easy part... ;-)

[JonMarsh]

Presentation teaser...

OK, a bit of a teaser- here's a few foils from the presentation...

I'll annotate these in the build thread post...











(this is basically the definition of an LR3 network, a combination of B2 and B1)





(This is the basis for the transfer function of the Modula MT, Natalie P, and the HF crossover of the Isiris).

[BobEllis]

...

I've got a few different disks selected for voicing tests, including acoustic jazz and classical, some older recordings (like the recent FIM remaster of Jazz at the Pawnshop, and the special CD version of "The King James Version" that was taken in 20 bits off the source and than dithered down to 16 bits for CD (the right way to do it)...

Oh, Man! A college room mate had the direct to disc "The King James Version" LP. I've been looking for that recording at a reasonable price ever since. Would love to hear it again. Even on a random cartridge/Thorens/SAE/Phase Linear/homebuilt speaker with no crossover understanding system it gave me chills.

[Steve Manning]

I just ran into this over at HD Tracks, don't know if it's of interest https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?f...HD822359378797

Steve

[JonMarsh]

I just ran into this over at HD Tracks, don't know if it's of interest https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?f...HD822359378797

Steve

Looks like that is sourced from the same master as the SACD- cool that it's available. I've got the SACD ripped, but haven't had time to finish processing the track files into AIFF yet! My conversion setup can do 24/88.2, but I usually do 24/176.4.

[wkhanna]

Oh, Man! A college room mate had the direct to disc "The King James Version" LP. I've been looking for that recording at a reasonable price ever since. Would love to hear it again. Even on a random cartridge/Thorens/SAE/Phase Linear/homebuilt speaker with no crossover understanding system it gave me chills.

I used to have 3 pressings, I know I gave one to a good friend a few years ago. I may still have two in my case. If not, I am sure I can pick one up one in V good condition at Jerry's Records for you. Likely at less than $10.

I will search my racks over the holiday weekend & let you know. I was planning on heading to Jerry's (only 10 minutes from my house) this weekend anyway.

[meb46]

Great progress Jon... I'll touch base with you early next week before I start to look at ordering parts for the Bass Crossovers. I just got the last missing inductor from Parts Express today, so the Mid/Treble Crossovers are essentially done. renovations are atill progressing, so protective sheeting wont be coming off the speakers for another week or so yet

[JonMarsh]

Good luck with finishing the renovations smoothly!

We had some friends of GF's over for grilling on the 4th today- Bonnie and Clyde did music duties for entertaining, which went fine with some Acoustic Alchemy and Curandero. Tomorrow I finish the updated HF crossovers and work on getting tools and parts put back in storage! Still haven't recovered from the big assembly push finished in late April!

[JonMarsh]

No time this weekend to actually update the big guys configuration, and still didn't finish the HF crossovers, though I got the order put together for all the new midrange build parts- that will hurt the pocket book a bit!

The good thing was just listening to a variety of CD's i'm familiar with in the evenings- that was quite satisfying even as is, though how much "good stuff" I should credit to the speakers versus the new DAC (which I've never heard at home), I can't say. Still, the trend line is in the right direction, and I've never heard CD sound better...

[SpeakerGuy]

I just ran into this over at HD Tracks, don't know if it's of interest https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?f...HD822359378797

Steve

Holy carp, $50... Man I hope it's good.

[JonMarsh]

Well, it is a three disk album, so the price is not that out of line.

[JonMarsh]

No joy this weekend- between my main project and assisting one of our new AE's on a critical project, it's looking like things will be in the 7 days a week mode for a while... :roll:

I just love when that happens in the summertime… ( hmm, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012- I guess I should be getting used to this...) ( at least my boss told HQ to forget the workshop in Austria the wanted me to come to the end of this month.)

[JonMarsh]

No joy this weekend- between my main project and assisting one of our new AE's on a critical project, it's looking like things will be in the 7 days a week mode for a while... :roll:

I just love when that happens in the summertime… ( hmm, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012- I guess I should be getting used to this...) ( at least my boss told HQ to forget the workshop in Austria the wanted me to come to the end of this month.)

Never say never! Boss took back the "not going to Villach workshop" yesterday morning! And now I have tickets... and losing two weekends to business travel. Crap! Not how I wanted my summer to go! :roll:

[JonMarsh]

Another working weekend; Don Juan's Reckless Daughter

Well,the grind is still ongoing at work, with spending a lot of my time covering for some other guys on vacation, while still trying to make progress on main issues- big deadlines coming up on some different topics Monday AM and Tuesday AM.

But at least over at GF's this evening helping with dinner for her niece and BF from Seattle, and getting to listen to the system. Right now it's Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, and I cranked up Overture-Cotton Avenue to -6 on the DAC volume control; 0 db is full output. The is no "turn it up to 11" with this system. But you know, they're right- when you aren't hearing a certain amount of harmonic distortion, it sort of doesn't sound loud- just "very there"! Or rather, very here! First time I've heard Joni on the new system, all I can say is, I'm happy at the definition and dynamics, and Joni has never sounded better- this DAC makes every CD I've played so far sound like it's been remastered again.

And there is more waiting... A Brainstorm DCD8 with FireWire interface, and an outboard Swiss rubidium clock sourced from eBay driving a wordclock input, which will be the interface for the iMac and provide an ultra low jitter reclocker for all signals going to the TotalDAC-D1. Just have to find some time to finish wiring up a power supply for the used clock (surplus equipment because of conversions to LTE). I'll probably eventually get a Stanford Research PRS-10 rubidium oscillator to replace it, as it has even lower phase noise and a very long operating life. Both options have been extensively tested at my colleague/friend's in Munich; I originally suggested these as a possible upgrade with his Antelope Zodiac Golds, and they still work very well with the TotalDAC. His wife, a pediatric doctor, is the skeptic; if she hears a difference in a positive way, then new gear can stay... :W The Brainstorm has been in the system over three years now, and after we tried taking it out during my visit in April, just to see if it wasn't useful considering the TotalDAC reclocker he was trying out, the unanimous decision was that it must stay.

At that point, I started looking again at the coins in my piggy bank, and after the visit to them in late July, decided I needed to catch up.

I'll post more about this in the digital section after I get it setup and have some time to live with it. I'm REALLY hoping that I WILL have Labor Day weekend off to play with stuff like this and finish up the crossovers! :roll:

[wkhanna]

Sorry to hear about the work schedule.
Wounderful to hear that the system is performing so well!

Hope you manage to get your holiday to yourself this upcoming weekend!

[JonMarsh]

As expected, PE is running one of their 10% off sales for Labor Day- I've been waiting for this, and so today entered my order for the complete new set of midrange crossover parts for the "compact" build.

Of course, being PE and all, most of the parts had notices in my Cart that they didn't have sufficient inventory to fill the full order, but would backorder and ship at no extra expense. Well, SOMEDAY they'll be here!

[Hank]

Poor Jon, the abused worker - almost feel sorry for you...but...nah! Enjoy your long weekend everybody!

[JonMarsh]

Poor Jon, the abused worker - almost feel sorry for you...but...nah! Enjoy your long weekend everybody!

Well, my long weekend just ended, with an email this AM with the needed documentation for an urgent project for my local EV oriented automotive customer. Now I need to review everything, get back to HQ by Sunday evening if there are questions or issues, so we can get a response from them by Monday, and be ready for the customer on Tuesday.

Probably the sort of thing that sounds familiar to you, Hank? I'm sure you're having fun these days in your current position- how many more years do you think you'll be doing this?

In more positive news, only 1 item (15 uF Superior Z cap) was backordered, and that is due into the PE warehouse by September 17. The rest has been shipped, via camel train- should be here in a week or two!

Also, the DB-9 connectors I ordered on eBay for the interface to the 10 MHz Rubidium clock came in, so if I can find a little spare time, I should be able to wire that up with the SMPS power supply I bought from it, maybe even test it with the Brainstorm DCD8 sitting on the shelf, waiting to be configured to work in the system over at GF's. This is a clock distributor and re-clocker with two digital domains, both which will be controlled/timed by the ultra low phase noise/jitter rubidium oscillator. (latter a used Swiss unit obtained on eBay- eBay is my friend for many, many things).



And one of the AE guys moved from our Raleigh NC office to the Primarion facility in Torrance, CA, and it turns out I can inherit the LeCroy scope he was using, since I had to give up my new Tek scope for one of our new local hires and go back to my 15 year old Tek with a floppy disk data interface. Maybe things will get better this year!

[Hank]

Probably the sort of thing that sounds familiar to you, Hank? I'm sure you're having fun these days in your current position- how many more years do you think you'll be doing this?

Yes, but I do believe you get abused more than me. Well, I'll have 35 years at the wheel next July. My boss asked me when I will retire and I answered: "Whenever you piss me off". He replied with: "Believe me, I'm going to do everything possible to NOT piss you off". Now with such a good relationship as that, it's difficult to think about retiring. Plus, I get called to help with bleeding edge research lab stuff as well as handle problems.
Speaking of eBay, I just bought a pair of Acoustat Model 3's from a gent in Ohio! They should ship within a few days. I feel some cap replacement and other tweaks creeping into my head.

[JonMarsh]

Speaking of eBay, I just bought a pair of Acoustat Model 3's from a gent in Ohio! They should ship within a few days. I feel some cap replacement and other tweaks creeping into my head.

Now, that's the way to spend your time online! Do the ones you bought have the medallion transformer interface or the vacuum tube (with op amp front end) amps?

Now, you know, getting to help with the bleeding edge research lab stuff is how they set and bury the hook, you know... of my business trips this year, 3/4 were to HQ's in Munich or Villach for special meetings and workshops, at the upper technical and management levels. Obviously, these people know how to lead us around by the nose... :W heck, I can't even mention the customer names or products (from us or them) due to all that NDA kind of stuff. I suppose it's heady times for an out of work rock musician from East Texas with a psych degree, but sometimes I really do wonder how I wound up here... but then, I sure can't think of any better alternatives that would make sense. Still, when I reflect on things, it does seem odd... :roll:

Oh well, at least I can afford more guitars these days than back in the day!

[Evil Twin]

Clearly it is time for an intervention...

The Chancellor's patience has worn thin- mine dissipated many months ago. Clearly Mr. Marsh has been too pre-occupied with his musical instrument interests of late, and his dedication to this project has waned- certainly tangible results have NOT been forthcoming for some time. It is past time to turn that situation around.


To that end, at the Chancellor's request, I have conducted an updated design review, and also begun addressing procurement deficiencies. Obviously, if certain individuals cannot be sufficiently motivated by the power of the Dark side, or think themselves immune, the only solution left is abrogation.


As a result, a new design review has been conducted, and procurement activities updates as a result. This will result in an expedited completion of this technological terror, and establishment of a clear benchmark for speaker development in the Empire or the New Republic.

More rigorous criteria have been applied for phase matching during transitions and inverted response profiles, resulting in this modified network design and the documented performance:



This even results in some additional economies of component cost.



The predicted composite response should be most satisfactory.

Impedance behavior and individual network transfer functions comply fully with the preferred targets.







Now it will only be necessary to find a way to supply sufficient motivation to procurement and assembly personnel to get this project back on track... I trust this it shall not prove difficult to motivate those who would prefer not to feel the censure of the Dark side and the necessary penalties.

[tf1216]

A TotalDAC review:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/totaldac-d1-dual-dac

I learned about R-2R ladder networks in school and that is the last I have seen of them. What a cool DAC design.

[Hank]

Lookin' good - and a good thing Darth intervened.

Do the ones you bought have the medallion transformer interface or the vacuum tube (with op amp front end) amps?

My Acoustats have the tranformer interface with the first transformer design. The Medallion interfaces replaced the low and high freq transformers with new designs. I will contact the NJ transformer company that bought out the FL transformer company that built them for Acoustat. I've read that they will build a set for customers (yeah, but at what cost?). I can't imagine new tranny's would help - these things are amazing: I can now appreciate 3D texture in instruments and female voices. Small ensembles are now in my listening space rather than on the other side of an open window. I think cap tweaks will do something special.
Yeah, the bleeding edge stuff is addicting. Now developing a key item for a computer brand's super-secret project.
So, you're from Texas - no wonder we seem kindred. But a phych major? Well, I'm a Marketing major and have never been in Marketing.... Go figure. :huh:

[Evil Twin]

A TotalDAC review:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/totaldac-d1-dual-dac

I learned about R-2R ladder networks in school and that is the last I have seen of them. What a cool DAC design.

The Force is strong with this reviewer... he has trusted his feelings... and captured the essence.

[Evil Twin]

Lookin' good - and a good thing Darth intervened.


So, you're from Texas - no wonder we seem kindred. But a phych major? Well, I'm a Marketing major and have never been in Marketing.... Go figure. :huh:

There are many true paths to the Dark Side... marketing is certainly one of them...

[JonMarsh]

Well, it's a good thing the big guy dressed in black will be able to handle this, because I've just been screwed without the benefit of a kiss at work.

My manager called me at home on Wednesday, to inform me that I've been assigned to a newly formed dedicated AE team of 5 for a specific customer- I'm the 3rd member, the other two will have to be hired. The first catch is that the customer is located a similar distance away from our office as I am, but in the opposite direction. The second catch is that I'm expected to be working in the customer facility at a minimum each day from 9:30 AM to 6 PM; work conducted outside their facility can be of my own choice; the third catch is that I'm expected to report and work there 7 days a week.


:M:M:M:M:M:M:M:M

Yesterday was my first day, and as expected, considering the commute situation where I live and the need to get into silicon valley early enough to spend an hour in the office, it looks like my door to door daily commute will be 5:30 AM to 8 PM.


:M:M:M:M:M:M:M:M

'Nuff said, I need to write up something to vent on my boss, as he's portrayed this in a very misleading way leading up to it. Of course, there wan't really any leading up to it - just dropped on me out of the blue... he says if we're successful with this project, we could get some more and I might be doing this the next several years... obviously he doesn't understand how appealing that sounds to me!

[johngalt47]

Wow! I consider myself fortunate in that regard. I can't imagine having that kind of commute on top of 7 days a week.

[wkhanna]

Jon, this is devastating news!

There must be some avenue available for appealing this ridiculous mandate?

These Draconian directives sound like some crazy Soviet-era punishment accompanied by exile to a work camp in Northern Siberia.

My day starts from my driveway at 5:30 am, were I arrive back most days around 6:00 pm. But that is just 5 days a week. And that is enough for me to be pretty close to going postal as it is!

What they are asking of you is incomprehensible.
Are they really so disconnected from reality to think anyone could do such a thing willingly & unquestionably?

[johngalt47]

By the way, we are hiring: https://careers-sbec.icims.com/jobs/...earchCompany=5

[jim1961]

Jon, I feel for you. Certainly I would be venting. But I would also be seriously looking at alternate employment opportunities. I completely agree with what Bill said. Incomprehensible!

[Mr.Ed]

Maybe some resume's to certain high end speaker companies?? Well we can dream.

[sdl2112]

Jon...I feel your pain...you are handling it a lot better than I would. The decisions my company is making...well...I better just bit my lip :x

[JonMarsh]

Oh, I don't think I mentioned the program review international conference calls every night from 10 PM to midnight or 12:30 AM?

Must have slipped my mind.

After another F2F with my boss early Friday while he was still out here, he seems to be realizing the magnitude of this and how it's impacting a relatively new AE hire who also got roped into this and has young kids. Week after next. When US CEO is back from travel, there will be another F2F, when boss is out here, including CEO.

[johngalt47]

I know it is selfish of us but we want you here 24/7 answering questions and designing speakers!

[dar47]

Are there not US labor laws?

Sounds like my boss hiring consultants and paying big bucks to see if there is a problem but not solving the problem, then asking can I solve these problems. I now say I can model these problems on double time and make recommendations as I have enough to do or you can hire another set of consultants at twice the price to solve the problem. Note I only mention I can solve the problem if I want the work time and extra money that comes with it. We should have some choices as being the company expert.

And yes, I think we appreciate your time more

[benchtester]

Are there not US labor laws? .....And yes, I think we appreciate your time more

Jon, time to review your exempt status qualification(?)

P.S. Burning Amp is early this year -> Oct. 6. Will that carry some weight with the CEO? :roll:

[JonMarsh]

P.S. Burning Amp is early this year -> Oct. 6. Will that carry some weight with the CEO? :roll:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:i. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gbegland]

Seriously, you have a life! And your life IS NOT WORK. Me thinks you have been far too kind as it is over the years I've frequented this forum. I left a poor work situation last year after being abused by the boss for too many years. You ought to look around at least.

Greg

[Carl V]

I am not Jon nor do I play an e.e. or musician....

But reading between the lines * & being the same age as Jon
tells me he is between a rock & a hard place. having had a couple of meals
with Jon in Colorado informs me that he is a calm measured man.

Lousy situation. My sister just Quit Helind Electronics, after many years at Hamilton
Hallmark, and Avnet. She too works out of Silly Con Valley and now Sacto. It's a tuff time.

Best wishes for you Jon. Get on that two wheeler ...head out to the coast. Half Moon bay perhaps.
Fire up the NSX and head up to Placerville....Auburn...grass valley

[Mr.Ed]

I'm not Jon either but I believe I'm of similar age. Not saying this is Jon's situation but companies do not like to hire experienced people. They want young, cheap people that they can make promises to. And yes there are labor laws and they do apply to salaried workers also. But I don't want to be the one to test them. Companies have lots of lawyers and something like this could be tied up for years. Meanwhile the company will treat you like dirt. Yes you can look for another job but in addition to my first point, any company that finds out you have a labor dispute in process, won't come near you.
So if you can afford to be unemployed for a while give it a shot. Otherwise the best plan of action is probably to negotiate with your company while they still appreciate what you can bring to them. My opinion, you results may vary.

[johngalt47]

Some companies are doing something these days which I find to be utterly despicable. They are creating a job title that is exactly the same job that already exists just to replace older people with younger, cheaper ones.

[CraigJ]

Jon,

Think of your girlfriend. :boobies: It's too soon to divorce and say goodbye to Bonnie and Clyde……………O.K, and if that didn't work, use that psych major!

p.s. time to live and ride that bike.

[gbegland]

Jon,

Think of your girlfriend. :boobies: It's too soon to divorce and say goodbye to Bonnie and Clyde……………O.K, and if that didn't work, use that psych major!

p.s. time to live and ride that bike.

Thank you Craig. The boobies are killing me.

[JonMarsh]

I am not Jon nor do I play an e.e. or musician....

But reading between the lines * & being the same age as Jon
tells me he is between a rock & a hard place. having had a couple of meals
with Jon in Colorado informs me that he is a calm measured man.

Lousy situation. My sister just Quit Helind Electronics, after many years at Hamilton
Hallmark, and Avnet. She too works out of Silly Con Valley and now Sacto. It's a tuff time.

Best wishes for you Jon. Get on that two wheeler ...head out to the coast. Half Moon bay perhaps.
Fire up the NSX and head up to Placerville....Auburn...grass valley

I'm not Jon either but I believe I'm of similar age. Not saying this is Jon's situation but companies do not like to hire experienced people. They want young, cheap people that they can make promises to. And yes there are labor laws and they do apply to salaried workers also. But I don't want to be the one to test them. Companies have lots of lawyers and something like this could be tied up for years. Meanwhile the company will treat you like dirt. Yes you can look for another job but in addition to my first point, any company that finds out you have a labor dispute in process, won't come near you.
So if you can afford to be unemployed for a while give it a shot. Otherwise the best plan of action is probably to negotiate with your company while they still appreciate what you can bring to them. My opinion, you results may vary.

Some companies are doing something these days which I find to be utterly despicable. They are creating a job title that is exactly the same job that already exists just to replace older people with younger, cheaper ones.

Think of your girlfriend. It's too soon to divorce and say goodbye to Bonnie and Clyde……………O.K, and if that didn't work, use that psych major!

p.s. time to live and ride that bike.

A lot of kind, thoughtful words here... :welcome:

While I am still trying several fronts to work issues, in behalf of others as well as myself (in one case, for another guy, with young kids, it should be a slam dunk, and if it isn't, that's the writing on the wall for me), I have also considered the possibilities and discussed them with GF at some length Saturday evening. I'm fortunate in that in addition to my work 401K, I have an IRA, and from time time my company was under different ownership, a small defined pension when that time comes. Plus, in my current situation, I put aside deferred income that amounts to a half a years pay, which pays out in a lump sum with termination. Worst case, if issues can't be resolved (I have a moderate amount of influence due to my track record and friends in the managing board in HQ), there are certain lines that I can't live with long term, but I can likely deal with until the end of the year, which would be the more advantageous time to pull the ripcord if that proves to be necessary. I had planned and expected to work another 4-7 years, but if they laid me off tomorrow (think 2 weeks plus 1 week for every 28 years of service) I would have another half years salary in my pocket. There are many possible negotiating positions. And many possible outcomes. You can liken it to the early stages of a chess game or poker game. But I can fold at any time and leave the table and get by OK.

:storm: :sh:

Most of my local colleagues are not in a similar position. :nonod:

Darn good thing I bought a lot of great toys this year! :T :B