Three Way Evil Design Study

[tktran]

The manual is rather sparse, but as near as I can tell there is no defeat for the rumble filter- with so many ported systems these days, I suppose that's wise.

The built in low pass filter is 24 dB/octave nominal, but it does seem to cut some corners in the DSP processing area and levels out somewhat beyond -40 dB attenuation; I confirmed that measuring into a resistive load with voltage divider.

Thanks for your reply Jon,

The manual states it's a 18dB/octave low pass, so thank you for giving some feedback on this unit.

The thing about rumber filters is that whilst it's a good idea for ported systems, for sealed systems it's a drawback. You'd want flat or increasing response in the low end, something similar to Linkwitz Transform. The trend I see is towards stuffing bigger drivers into smaller sealed boxes. Which I creates a whole set of new challenges, but if there's one thing the commercial manufacturers have over DIY is that they have plate amps carefully tuned to their woofer/cabinet system, with built in limiters etc.

I'm not sure if the LP crossover in the DS 4.0 is managed digitally, or analogue. Strange, about that -40dB floor

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for your reply Jon,

The manual states it's a 18dB/octave low pass, so thank you for giving some feedback on this unit.

The thing about rumber filters is that whilst it's a good idea for ported systems, for sealed systems it's a drawback. You'd want flat or increasing response in the low end, something similar to Linkwitz Transform. The trend I see is towards stuffing bigger drivers into smaller sealed boxes. Which I creates a whole set of new challenges, but if there's one thing the commercial manufacturers have over DIY is that they have plate amps carefully tuned to their woofer/cabinet system, with built in limiters etc.

I'm not sure if the LP crossover in the DS 4.0 is managed digitally, or analogue. Strange, about that -40dB floor

The system includes a variable frequency LF EQ, which works fine foe sealed systems, and is the ain reason I bought it, because the sub I built for GF is sealed in a 2 cu ft enclosure. The response plot shown earlier is with EQ, which is why it's pretty solid down to almost 20 Hz. I think a high pass below that isn't such a NAD idea sealed, either, as it makes over excursion less likely. Big IB sub would be another matter.

[JonMarsh]

Imagine what we could do to the price and complexity of a crossover with this little trick?



A scary thought. With a well designed crossover layout, and solid crossover grounds, it's hard to see how this would help. OTOH, for a poorer layout, with cross coupling of signal return currents in different section, I can imagine there could be issues.

The trick, in my opinion, is not building the crossover as one big circuit, but as separate groups, all with a single point ground return to the input ground, and very low impedance. The ideal signal return, of course, is back to the amplifier terminals by separate cables. Let's see... what would that cost?

[BobEllis]

They're just trying to justify getting up near your parts count, Jon. (and the price increase that goes with it)

[Jonasz]

Imagine what we could do to the price and complexity of a crossover with this little trick?



A scary thought. With a well designed crossover layout, and solid crossover grounds, it's hard to see how this would help. OTOH, for a poorer layout, with cross coupling of signal return currents in different section, I can imagine there could be issues.

The trick, in my opinion, is not building the crossover as one big circuit, but as separate groups, all with a single point ground return to the input ground, and very low impedance. The ideal signal return, of course, is back to the amplifier terminals by separate cables. Let's see... what would that cost?

Why not go active then? Absolute symmetry around the drivers... :P

[JonMarsh]

Been there, Done that, have the TV syndication rights... but there are situations and reasons that I'm not always fond of that, including complexity, reliability, and ease of evaluating other components, especially amplifiers. My first three way active amplified speaker system was in the early 70', with home made PCB's in a home built rackmount chasis- done several more since then, and one of them lives in ThomasW's living room setup with his Acoustats, BG ribbons, and IB subs.

But the great thing about DIY is that for everyone, like Fleetwood Mac sang, "You can go your own way..."


In related news, more Mundorf resistors arrived from Madisound, and 68uF CrossCaps from PE for the new build on the LF networks. A complete order for a new midrange crossover pair build is sitting in my wish list at PE, but will wait there until my return from England.

Have a big deal customer problem from a different division than I normally work for that's been dumped in my lap to help figure out- spare time over the next week or so has evaporated.

[cjd]

Have a big deal customer problem from a different division than I normally work for that's been dumped in my lap to help figure out- spare time over the next week or so has evaporated.

Someone (a couple levels or so above me on the management side) told me the other day that I was "the key to the castle." - that sure seems like what you've gotten yourself into! Makes me worried about my weekends! I think they need to give me a raise (and I suspect a promotion) sometime last year too...

Anyhow, hopefully the problem is of the interesting/"fun" variety, not a simple PITA.

C

[JonMarsh]

Hmm, I agree with you, we may have both gotten ourselves into interesting positions. Hope they do the right thing by you...

Well, Chris, interesting is relative- you remember the old Chinese proverb/curse, "May you live in interesting times..."

This particular one is both interesting technically and a potential hot potatoe, because of the amount of money at stake. A guy I used to work with in the 90's in our company, that i was actually involved in hiring back then, went to my boss and asked him to loan me to them to work on this issue, so other than a training Webinar I'm conducting tomorrow, everything else is dropped or deferred until this gets settled. Will look great on my year end review if I puzzle it out for them, not so great if I don't! :cry:

[JonMarsh]

Well, work grinds on, customer is slow getting me their information (promised by Thursday, delivered close of business on Friday), so it's a working weekend for me, and not on speakers. That's a shame, because I've got a nice pile of new crossover parts!

[Mr.Ed]

Well, work grinds on, customer is slow getting me their information (promised by Thursday, delivered close of business on Friday), so it's a working weekend for me, and not on speakers. That's a shame, because I've got a nice pile of new crossover parts!

Always at COB Friday. Well hopefully it won't be as I'm used to where in the customers Monday status meeting they report that you've had it since last week. They can't understand why you're not done yet.

[Mr.Ed]

Sorry double post.

[cjd]

Well, work grinds on, customer is slow getting me their information (promised by Thursday, delivered close of business on Friday), so it's a working weekend for me, and not on speakers. That's a shame, because I've got a nice pile of new crossover parts!

Right about now I am not minding the extra work-work - my back flared up and I can't move speakers right now (no forward folds, which also means no leaning over a work-bench or anything of the kind. New PT so maybe this one'll puzzle out a solution!) I'm thinking I may do a clamp-trick to secure a back and do some very very preliminary measurements though - no baffle chamfers (but hey, it's good to know just what they mess up and what they fix...)

Hang in there, and get what enjoyment you can out of the work puzzle. That's a lot of faith in your skills, and I'm guessing that's been hard earned and is well deserved. I enjoy the irony of observing the crazy amount of travel you get to do, while here I am working for a travel agency...

[JonMarsh]

Right about now I am not minding the extra work-work - my back flared up and I can't move speakers right now (no forward folds, which also means no leaning over a work-bench or anything of the kind. New PT so maybe this one'll puzzle out a solution!)

I enjoy the irony of observing the crazy amount of travel you get to do, while here I am working for a travel agency...

Hey Chris, I hope your new physical therapist can do some good! I know what a PITA that is, err, PITB! My disk blow out in 2003 was a blessing in disguise, as the surgery fixed the basics, but it took a lot of exercise and alignment until things really got solid around 2009 - I remember still having some unpleasant issues just getting in my new Element in the spring of 2008. But these days, other than running (because of the pounding pressure on the empty disk), I can do pretty much anything without any issues, as long as I pay at least a little bit of attention to body mechanics. Hope they get that sorted out for you.

And yes, that is some serious irony going on there- though at work I've been trying, somewhat successfully, to cut back on the travel. At least I'm within the new dollar budget they gave me for the first time this year- and most people aren't. But the upcoming trip for hiking across England is something we've been talking about and planning since literally the middle of the "Hiking from Vienna to Prague" trip spring last year. A discussion came up about trip events that were particularly good in that vein, and that one was mentioned by the group leader and a couple of other people, who hadn't been on it themselves, but for whom friends had recommended it highly.

As to this work thing, I think I have a solid clue and plan of attack; why the HQ AE didn't see this issue and go down the path accordingly I don't know (the big clue is in data provided by the customer), but what the hey- maybe I have a small chance to pull one out of the bag again. Everything is under big time NDA, of course, but if I do get the handle on it down the path I think it has to go, well, I'll be lifting a glass of SOMETHING to celebrate, and can at least share THAT info! :W

In the meantime, here's some crossover parts porn... why I'm especially unhappy NOT to be working on this right now!

[dlneubec]

Jon,

OT: Just a heads up. I sent you a PM a few weeks ago. Did you get it? It was in regards to the California DIY event.

[---k---]

Seems to be a lot of this bad work mojo going around. I was discussing a proposal interview this morning. It is structured with time for proposers to ask questions of the client/owner. I suggested: "Do you have your 'A-Team' working on this project and intend to perform your reviews within the schedule you provided, or should we pad our schedule with extra time and $$?" I don't think that question will get asked....

[JonMarsh]

I agree about the "bad mojo", though so far I think I'm making progress getting this sorted out. However, it is disconcerting, as there is a bunch of money and time riding on this one, and some dysfunctional behavior from HQ. But after another 2/3 day meeting at the customer yesterday, I do feel like we're making progress on a lot of levels, including the specific technical challenge and knowledge sharing / team building. That bodes well.

OTOH, the speaker building situation blows- I did get to see Bonnie and Clyde yesterday briefly (witness the picture) below, but other than admiring the new crossover parts in passing and sketching on the back a napkin at dinner last night how I might arrange/package the new crossovers, it's been hands off.



Bonnie and Clyde is GF's name for them; Bonnie is the one wearing the shawl, so she can tell them apart... :W

Tonight we hopefully move the old upright piano out and get it picked up by a guy who wants to restore it as a retirement project. And most of this weekend I'm working on stuff for the customer, for creating the PCB CAD files for a specialized text fixture, though SOMETIME I've got to pack for our trip, too!

I need some down time!!!

[JonMarsh]

Music is playing tonight!

Got some of the gear racked up in an old Salamander rack way over to the left, with the Cambridge Audio sitting VERY temporarily in the middle on the floor! But, there is music! 50th Anniversary Play Bach, Jacque Loussier. Ahhhhhhh....

Bliss, after a long Saturday pushing pixels on a big CAD monitor....

[Carl V]

no Wagner...his 200th birthday ya know.

maybe some John Mayall Room to Move
Looking good over there.

[JonMarsh]

Mayall would be good, but only have a handful of CD's over at GF's at the moment. The wholesale move is yet to begin...

We spun a disk she likes on her Sony Dream machine at night, and it was an eye opener-

Flute Dreams


Alice Gomez, Madalyn Blanchett, & Marilyn Rife.

(Undoubtedly big names in the Southwestern music scene, but?? )

OK sounding on the Sony clock radio, but huge spatial presence on the big guys, very nicely and cleanly recorded percussion and drums as well, not aggressive or spectacular on the percussion, but very clean and varied (think works well with R2/R ladder DAC and diamond tweeters?) sounds more like an audiophile or big label recording, yet it's put out by "Talking Taco Music Inc", in San Antonio! You never know what you'll find. We also listened to a bunch of her South American music CD's actually purchased in South America, but boy, it's like listening to something recorded off a boom box with a jitter enhancement encoding- gritty, grainy, narrow frequency range, etc. I'm sure just a limitation of the available equipment. Some of the players sound pretty talented, some not (like, you need to play all in the same keys, guys!) and the almost uniform thing about the imports she brought home was that their CD's start off with the Paul Simon track ("El Condor Pasa") that brought Peruvian music into Western consciousness. One of the versions was slowed down to a nearly dirge like tempo, about half the speed of the "normal" version.

Anyway, if this kind of music, similar to Cusco (German group popular in many quarters) is something you relate to, check out Flute Dreams- it is available on Amazon.

[wkhanna]

Bonnie and Clyde is GF's name for them

Ha!
That is precious!

[JonMarsh]

Ha!
That is precious!

Believe me, she's one of a kind...

[wkhanna]

Believe me, she's one of a kind...

Knowing you as we do here, she would have to be!

[---k---]

Interesting names. I don't think I've got my wife mad enough yet that she'll tell me the private names she has for my speakers.

Though, we were discussing selling our house the other day. I said I would probably have to put my speakers into storage while showing it. She disagreed. I guess after 5 years, she has gotten used to them and no longer sees them as huge. I never saw that coming.


I'm on holiday where my data coverage is severely limited. I'll have to check out Flute Dreams when I get back.

[JeremyG]

Interesting names. I don't think I've got my wife mad enough yet that she'll tell me the private names she has for my speakers.

Oh, dear!!! You're lucky!!! Having six foot tall Magnepans in my living room, I can assure you that I've heard what my wife calls them!!!:rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Though, we were discussing selling our house the other day. I said I would probably have to put my speakers into storage while showing it. She disagreed. I guess after 5 years, she has gotten used to them and no longer sees them as huge. I never saw that coming.


.

Very interesting indeed, Ryan! :T

Hope you enjoyed your holiday travel- I was in the same situation in England.

Now I'm back, and have started the assembly of the updated design LF crossover module, and have parts on hand for new tweeter builds, and part of a new midrange build. I'm specifically targeting a form factor for these that I hope will allow me to put them in the cabinets. Besides, Steve and others have been doing such pretty jobs on their crossover builds I think I have to rise to the challenge! Though I don't think I'll get to where they are, I'm going to try to clean up my act!

[BobEllis]

I'm listening to my just delivered copy of Flute Dreams on a cheap set of computer speakers. Can't wait to get it home, nice music. Thanks Jon. Keep those recommendations coming. 8)

I also ordered the Close to the Edge SACD that you recommended, but Amazon shipped Dylan's Greatest Hits with a barcode on the back that says Close to the Edge. I don't have any old Dylan, so I'll keep and reorder. I wonder what I will get this time.

[JonMarsh]

I'm listening to my just delivered copy of Flute Dreams on a cheap set of computer speakers. Can't wait to get it home, nice music. Thanks Jon. Keep those recommendations coming. 8)

I also ordered the Close to the Edge SACD that you recommended, but Amazon shipped Dylan's Greatest Hits with a barcode on the back that says Close to the Edge. I don't have any old Dylan, so I'll keep and reorder. I wonder what I will get this time.

That's ALMOST funny! Disk roulette at Amazon!

I found another recording done at the St. Bees Priory organ at Amazon UK- no idea what it's like, and the shipping and customs clearance cost about double the price of the disk! Hope you get the real "Close to the Edge" this time. I'm planning to get my new SACD extractor player going over the 4 th of July break and see how the SACD layer sounds converted to 24/176.4 on the new DAC.

[BobEllis]

Amazon got it right the second time around. If you have a SACD player, buy the Close to the Edge SACD. As Jon mentioned a while back, even the CD layer is impressive. The CD layer has a significantly wider sound stage than the FLAC file I ripped off an old issue CD. The SACD layer is WOW! Detail and space that I have never heard from my system. The sound stage is almost 180 degrees wide - so wide I thought it was a 5 channel mix. Depth from my toes to 5 feet into the wall behind my speakers and floor to ceiling height. It's been a long time since I have just sat down, closed my eyes and let an album run through. I'm currently running the audio out of my Oppo BDP-103 to the decoder input of my old Yamaha DSP-A1.

Once again, thanks for the recommendation, Jon. I may be cursing you in a while because I have now started a quest for better recordings to listen to.

Now back to the design study.

[JonMarsh]

well, Bob, you know the old saying- GIGO!

So while we're mostly focused on the very end of the output side on this forum, you've got to have good source material and components to really know how much progress you're making on the output side! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the SACD layer of Close to the Edge so much, and I look forward to seeing what the SACD rip sounds like in PCIM; I have new updates to both Audirvana Plus and Fidelia to try out with the TotalDAC D1, so I've got my fingers crossed that I'll have some fun over the 4th of July weekend! I should have the new crossover sections for LF and HF completed by then, too!

[BobEllis]

I know my amp leaves a lot of room for improvement, but it is convenient in a very suboptimal tiny room. Oppo seems to have intended their players to be a system control center, but forgot to include IR trigger outputs, even on the BDP-105. Maybe the next version. I hoped for some magic, but didn't expect so much. This weekend is too busy to bring better amps into the picture, but I will try soon.

Darn you, Jon, you pushed me up off the plateau I had reached.

[wkhanna]

...... you know the old saying- GIGO!

DR (Dynamic Range) for 'Close to the Edge'

While DR should not be used to determine the ultimate quality of any recording, it will at least benchmark the versions available. Things like 'soundstage', 'depth' & 'timbre' may (can?) not necessarily be reflected by this measurement. However, the amount of headroom & range will typically indicate the amount of care given during the mastering process.

The chart may also offer evidence of why the Redbook layer sounds quite good in comparison, & maybe even more importantly, why 'Remasters' are not always the 'best' choice. (FYI, much more dramatic examples abound)

[JonMarsh]

Hey Bill!

While I salute DR analysis and rating of different versions of recordings, it's a pretty one sided metric, and in the case of the 2013 release of "Close to the Edge", pretty much misses the boat in terms of understanding or touching on the qualitative differences.

I have many of the available Close to the Edge releases, including the original vinyl, and various CD releases as noted in that list.

Earlier masters/remasters, regardless of the nominal DR, sound like they were cut from the basically the same piece of cloth, (i.e., probably the same stereo mix down), and have an etched, pumped up presence range sort of characteristics that doesn't sound very natural. Certainly doesn't sound like live mic feeds! They tend to sound like something that's gone through a lot of processing. The different releases are relatively subtle variations on a theme, one we're used to because that's all we've heard since the original release of the album.

The 2013 release, OTOH, (at least the CD layer I've heard; I haven't heard the HD Tracks version, though I do often buy from them), sounds like what Townsend did for the Tommy SACD remaster done years ago. That is, they took the original multi-track, put it on a thoroughly modern tuned up tape machine, and then remixed it in basically the same way on a much cleaner, modern board. The result is largely free of glare or grit or unnatural edge, and is an absolute pleasure to listen to, as well as having much nicer spatial characteristics. That makes my 24/176.4 translation of the Tommy SACD such a pleasure to listen to, and is why I'm really looking forward to extracting the "Close to the Edge" SACD. For most folks, the HD tracks version might be the easier way to go, though!

[jim1961]

Hey Bill!

While I salute DR analysis and rating of different versions of recordings, it's a pretty one sided metric, and in the case of the 2013 release of "Close to the Edge", pretty much misses the boat in terms of understanding or touching on the qualitative differences.

I have many of the available Close to the Edge releases, including the original vinyl, and various CD releases as noted in that list.

Earlier masters/remasters, regardless of the nominal DR, sound like they were cut from the basically the same piece of cloth, (i.e., probably the same stereo mix down), and have an etched, pumped up presence range sort of characteristics that doesn't sound very natural. Certainly doesn't sound like live mic feeds! They tend to sound like something that's gone through a lot of processing. The different releases are relatively subtle variations on a theme, one we're used to because that's all we've heard since the original release of the album.

The 2013 release, OTOH, (at least the CD layer I've heard; I haven't heard the HD Tracks version, though I do often buy from them), sounds like what Townsend did for the Tommy SACD remaster done years ago. That is, they took the original multi-track, put it on a thoroughly modern tuned up tape machine, and then remixed it in basically the same way on a much cleaner, modern board. The result is largely free of glare or grit or unnatural edge, and is an absolute pleasure to listen to, as well as having much nicer spatial characteristics. That makes my 24/176.4 translation of the Tommy SACD such a pleasure to listen to, and is why I'm really looking forward to extracting the "Close to the Edge" SACD. For most folks, the HD tracks version might be the easier way to go, though!

Hello Jon,

I agree that no metric can say what a CD sounds like. Many try though

I too have heard the 16 bit layer from the Audio Fidelity 2013 CTTE and I agree with your take about it sounding like its cut from a different piece of cloth. I am at a loss to explain WHY this one sounds so good and many predecessors missed the mark. Certainly the magnetic impressions on the original master tapes are not getting better :W

But I have been following Steve Hoffman's work for a while now, and even the DCC label that preceded the Audio Fidelity one. I have found both the DCC and Audio Fidelity masterings to be excellent and surpass my previous aluminum counterpart in every case.

I am convinced that the mastering is by far the most important aspect leading to whether its the best version of a given recording or not. Some mastering engineers get it right, and some not so much.

[BobEllis]

Bill,

I tend to be a dynamics guy, but what struck me was the open-ness of the sound stage of the SACD layer and the realism compared to a lossless CD rip and even the CD layer of the SACD. I had been used to hearing it in a 3' wide 1' deep window and with the SACD was transformed into a front of the stage vantage point with a clear view to the back of the drum riser. The sound stage extends well beyond the width of my speakers, significantly more than any other recording I've listened to. I'd never noticed acoustic guitar in the mix before, yet there it was almost touchable in its woodiness.

I'll take the hint and pick up the Tommy SACD, Jon.

[jim1961]

Bill,

I tend to be a dynamics guy, but what struck me was the open-ness of the sound stage of the SACD layer and the realism compared to a lossless CD rip and even the CD layer of the SACD. I had been used to hearing it in a 3' wide 1' deep window and with the SACD was transformed into a front of the stage vantage point with a clear view to the back of the drum riser. The sound stage extends well beyond the width of my speakers, significantly more than any other recording I've listened to. I'd never noticed acoustic guitar in the mix before, yet there it was almost touchable in its woodiness.

I'll take the hint and pick up the Tommy SACD, Jon.

How would you compare the 16 bit layer to the 24 bit layer on the SACD. Its clear you like the 24 bit layer better, but am wondering how close they are.

[BobEllis]

Caveat: I didn't listen to the whole 16 bit layer (yet), Just samples around the times where the DSD layer amazed. The 16 bit layer seems just a bit more constrained. The soundstage is still wider than my speakers, but maybe 20-30 degrees less in total. It gave the feeling of more space, and isn't as deep front to back or have the height clues. In the DSD layer there is sometimes a swimming effect where instruments seem to dance, painting a sound picture as psychedelic as the time it was originally recorded. I"d love to hear it on a really top flight system in a good room.

[jim1961]

Caveat: I didn't listen to the whole 16 bit layer (yet), Just samples around the times where the DSD layer amazed. The 16 bit layer seems just a bit more constrained. The soundstage is still wider than my speakers, but maybe 20-30 degrees less in total. It gave the feeling of more space, and isn't as deep front to back or have the height clues. In the DSD layer there is sometimes a swimming effect where instruments seem to dance, painting a sound picture as psychedelic as the time it was originally recorded. I"d love to hear it on a really top flight system in a good room.

Your description makes me think you already do

[wkhanna]

While I salute DR analysis and rating of different versions of recordings, it's a pretty one sided metric, and in the case of the 2013 release of "Close to the Edge", pretty much misses the boat in terms of understanding or touching on the qualitative differences.

Bill,

I tend to be a dynamics guy, but what struck me was the open-ness of the sound stage of the SACD layer and the realism compared to a lossless CD rip and even the CD layer of the SACD. I had been used to hearing it in a 3' wide 1' deep window and with the SACD was transformed into a front of the stage vantage point with a clear view to the back of the drum riser. The sound stage extends well beyond the width of my speakers, significantly more than any other recording I've listened to. I'd never noticed acoustic guitar in the mix before, yet there it was almost touchable in its woodiness.

I'll take the hint and pick up the Tommy SACD, Jon.

I have more than 40 Hi-Res files ripped from SACD. I will be the first in line to exult their superior sound quality. I will also be the first to admit sound quality is not fully measurable by scientific observation. I offer the DR results only as piecemeal analysis of the various releases. Our ears are always the final judge.

[jim1961]

I have many of the available Close to the Edge releases, including the original vinyl, and various CD releases as noted in that list.

Earlier masters/remasters, regardless of the nominal DR, sound like they were cut from the basically the same piece of cloth, (i.e., probably the same stereo mix down), and have an etched, pumped up presence range sort of characteristics that doesn't sound very natural. Certainly doesn't sound like live mic feeds! They tend to sound like something that's gone through a lot of processing. The different releases are relatively subtle variations on a theme, one we're used to because that's all we've heard since the original release of the album.

For those interested, Yes - Going for the One - Audio Fidelity SACD was just recently released.

[JonMarsh]

For those interested, Yes - Going for the One - Audio Fidelity SACD was just recently released.

Count me interested!

[gbegland]

It looks at least as if the SACD and redbook layers are equivalent in terms of levels according to the DRD which is a good sign and no more squashed than the original vinyl release, so that's nice.

I might have mentioned this before, but I got totally screwed by the MJ 25th anniversary of Thriller. I was at Bruce Swediens studio and he played me the original mixes straight from the 24 bit ProTools transfer. I was loosing my mind and ran right out and immediately bought Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad since they had just been remastered from the new 24 bit master tape transfers Bruce had played for me. Plus, I wanted autographs the next time I was visiting. :W

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=thriller

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=bad

Compare the levels of the original vinyl releases with the 25th anniversary remasters. And remember, what I was hearing was even MORE dynamic than the originals, because it was unmastered mixes.

Ha! What a crock of s*#t. Bernie Grundman had been pressured by the label during mastering to make them louder to sound more modern. Killed the mixes entirely. The discs sound very poor. Bruce is an old school kind of engineer and uses little compression and effects. He just lets the music breath as the performers intended. Had I not heard what the original mixes sounded like, I would have always wondered why he won those engineering Grammy awards.

Greg

[JonMarsh]

It looks at least as if the SACD and redbook layers are equivalent in terms of levels according to the DRD which is a good sign and no more squashed than the original vinyl release, so that's nice.

I might have mentioned this before, but I got totally screwed by the MJ 25th anniversary of Thriller. I was at Bruce Swediens studio and he played me the original mixes straight from the 24 bit ProTools transfer. I was loosing my mind and ran right out and immediately bought Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad since they had just been remastered from the new 24 bit master tape transfers Bruce had played for me. Plus, I wanted autographs the next time I was visiting. :W

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=thriller

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=bad

Compare the levels of the original vinyl releases with the 25th anniversary remasters. And remember, what I was hearing was even MORE dynamic than the originals, because it was unmastered mixes.

Ha! What a crock of s*#t. Bernie Grundman had been pressured by the label during mastering to make them louder to sound more modern. Killed the mixes entirely. The discs sound very poor. Bruce is an old school kind of engineer and uses little compression and effects. He just lets the music breath as the performers intended. Had I not heard what the original mixes sounded like, I would have always wondered why he won those engineering Grammy awards.

Greg

The problem, as I see it, is that at times some very good guys have to take orders from some real a$$hats in suits... it's a shame for sure, Greg. :evil:

[JonMarsh]

When we were at St. Bees Priory, we heard the last Willis organ built in England played, which was quite a nice experience. GF, who had all the experience in Venezuela and other locals where all the local street bands are hawking their CD's (usually of pretty awful quality, unfortunately, the state of audio electronics in South America being what it is..), so more as a lark she asked if they had a CD of playing on the organ- which they did! The gentleman playing for us that afternoon was Frank Bowler, the second of the four players on this CD, which was done for charity to raise money for repairs to the Priory.



We listened to this one last night, didn't get to the Daniel Cook recording last night. Frank Bowler was playing for us when we visited; he was the second in the group of organists. There was a very clear progression of mastery of both setup and technique on the organ from the first to the last. Hugh Turpin, the 4th player in the series, really understood how to setup the organ properly for each piece, and his technique was quite impeccable and masterful; GF didn't understand why I was complaining and grousing about the first three, until she heard Hugh's pieces, culminating in a very reasonable rendition of Toccata and Fugue in D-minor. At that point, she understood my prior complaints. I also suspect Hugh boxed the recording engineer from the local school about the ears a bit after hearing the other recordings, including the poor microphone positioning and the way the decay trails at the end of pieces were cut off abruptly by editing before they'd died out in the charge acoustics.

Next, we'll have to listen to the Daniel Cook recording; perhaps we'll come up with a compilation of "St. Bee's Greatest Hits" between the two!

[jim1961]

It looks at least as if the SACD and redbook layers are equivalent in terms of levels according to the DRD which is a good sign and no more squashed than the original vinyl release, so that's nice.

I might have mentioned this before, but I got totally screwed by the MJ 25th anniversary of Thriller. I was at Bruce Swediens studio and he played me the original mixes straight from the 24 bit ProTools transfer. I was loosing my mind and ran right out and immediately bought Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad since they had just been remastered from the new 24 bit master tape transfers Bruce had played for me. Plus, I wanted autographs the next time I was visiting. :W

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=thriller

http://dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=michael+jackson&search_album=bad

Compare the levels of the original vinyl releases with the 25th anniversary remasters. And remember, what I was hearing was even MORE dynamic than the originals, because it was unmastered mixes.

Ha! What a crock of s*#t. Bernie Grundman had been pressured by the label during mastering to make them louder to sound more modern. Killed the mixes entirely. The discs sound very poor. Bruce is an old school kind of engineer and uses little compression and effects. He just lets the music breath as the performers intended. Had I not heard what the original mixes sounded like, I would have always wondered why he won those engineering Grammy awards.

Greg

I just wish that two versions of these things could be packaged together. A "modern sound" (compressed and loud) version and an "audiophile" (uncompressed) one. Perhaps both parties could be happy in this case. I really hate when the former supersedes the later.

[JonMarsh]

Crossover design massage; construction underway

Considering a variety of listening tests, on and off axis measurements, and the present plan to rebuild the crossovers in a form factor that can be installed in the cabinets, a certain amount of design massage has been going on, especially since I won't be able to teak levels if the crossovers are internal. (well, maybe I can, at least for the tweeter, but it might be messy...)









The woofer rebuild is complete, the tweeter one close, and about half the parts on hand for the midrange (which has not changed in design, other than fixing some variable resistor configurations or eliminating the options.

This "looks" like it can be a little hot in the 5 K range, but grilles will absorb some there- also, this is using 40 degree off axis data- on axis is softer at 5K, and hotter above 15 K. The rise in the LF with the crossover is likely an artifact of how LspCAD calculates the network response and models drivers- we'll see in the final measurements.