Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

[Steve Manning]

We used to say they were "Unemployable people keeping employable people unemployed".

Ron ...... I love this one because it's so true. Every time I hear how low the unemployment rate is supposed to be, I want to throw something at the T.V. When I heard that those numbers are based on what's paid out in unemployment benefits, and once your benefits run out the government takes that as you must no longer be unemployed, and so the unemployment rate goes down. Of course in reality tons of us are indeed still out of work and can't find a job. I so love politicians and bureaucrats. :M

[BobEllis]

Ordered freak maple burl veneer from Joe Woodworker. Similar to this, but a bit shorter so less waste.

Starting to see light at the end of the construction tunnel.

[TEK]

Ordered freak maple burl veneer from Joe Woodworker. Similar to this, but a bit shorter so less waste. http://www.veneersupplies.com/produc...s-Per-Lot.html

Starting to see light at the end of the construction tunnel.

Holy crap - that looks like some special veneer. Going to be interesting to here your experience with laying on that :-D

[BobEllis]

I bought a gallon of veneer softener to go with it.

[JonMarsh]

Progress again. Both cabinets assembled and braced. Baffles cut to length and 10°. That part was interesting because as I started assembling a crosscut sled I realized that I didn't have the depth of cut needed to cut the baffles if they were on top of the sled. Luckily I had enough extra baffle length to make a few practice cuts to hone my technique. Overall it came out pretty well considering the flimsy miter gauge that comes with my saw. I will probably take the week after Labor Day to cut facets and attach baffles. My back doesn't like the lifting or bending over, so it goes slowly.





Yes, I used a rip blade to cut the baffles and trim to width, figuring there's no way I could push an 80 tooth blade through 3" of MDF



By the way, it's always a good idea to maintain a firm grip on the cabinets when moving them. At least the cabinet was undamaged. The lake is one of the many distractions that have slowed progress on this project.

Ouch! That's gotta hurt! BT, DT. :W

But you're making a lot of progress, Bob.

[JonMarsh]

Ordered freak maple burl veneer from Joe Woodworker. Similar to this, but a bit shorter so less waste.

Starting to see light at the end of the construction tunnel.

Pretty nice looking stuff, the veneer softener is not just a good idea, it's likely mandatory with stuff like this. I used a ton of it on the first Ardent build.

[BobEllis]

This is going to be an interesting first raw veneer project. I've never been one to make my learning experiences easy.

[TEK]

This is going to be an interesting first raw veneer project. I've never been one to make my learning experiences easy.

That's the way to go man!
There is little fun in easy - and a lot of fun in coming out victorious from a great challenge!

[Renron]

That's the way to go man!
There is little fun in easy - and a lot of fun in coming out victorious from a great challenge!

Spoken like a man with experience!

Bob,
Nice looking veneer, Is it really called Freak? What's that all about?
Ron

[BobEllis]

Not sure why it's called freak. Compared to other maple burl veneers at the site it's got more color variation and range. He has dark, light and freak. Wood turning supplies seem to call it a freak burl when it's darker than normal. I chose it for the color mainly. The size and girlfriend approval were nice bonuses. I ended up buying the rest of what he had so I can do the wavecor version and center channel consistently.

Tek, my first DIY amplifier wasn't a chip amp or a class AB amp as usually recommended. I built a pair of Pass/Thagard A75s, modified to run on higher rails. Turned out well, and didn't blow anything up until the fourth channel when I was complacent. This figures to follow a similar Incremental test step path.

[BobEllis]

Dynamic Saw update.

Putting this blade back on the saw I couldn't help but notice how much sharper the teeth feel than my nearly new Freud glue line rip blade.


Cuts in Baltic Birch are essentially tear out free. I cut with and without painter's tape and it seems the tape pulled up as many splinters as it prevented.

[BobEllis]

Facet jig dry fit. That 23/32 router bit cuts the perfect slot for 18 mm BB ply.

[JonMarsh]

It's weird how many strange bit sizes I've acquired just because of things like that-- generally, they are for matching metric dimensions with imperial tools.

Cool that the new blade is working out so well... might have to look into that for my funny not so small small speaker.


===========================================

OK, went hunting for that, you clever fellow, you're using a laminate blade (I've used that trick with other brands in the past...

LM1080X

OK, got it bookmarked.

[BobEllis]

I'm not that clever, just following their recommendation for BB ply. Although looking around that seems to be the consensus on geometry for smooth cuts in plywood. It also matches the article Ron shared with us. I replaced a Freud ultimate cutoff blade that did almost as well when it was new. The main geometry change is the Freud has a higher hook angle. It will be interesting to compare them once I get the Freud back from sharpening.

[Renron]

Thanks for the update Bob,
I'm watching your facet jig with an eye to build one myself. I've already made the miter jig that slides along the fence.
Ron

[BobEllis]

A bit of progress. The weather guessers predicted rain arrival was only off by 18 hours. At least it came with a boom at 0200 and I was able to get things inside without significant damage. Lesson learned the hard way (again).

The facet jig fits together so snugly that I decided not to glue it. Drywall screws hold it in together. Test cut on a piece of baffle cutoff.





On the left is a 45 degree cut using blade tilt. On the right is the cut on the jig.


I might be able to get another 1/8 inch of facet width, but as you can see it ain't much due to the fourth layer keeping the cut off the table and I only have 3.5" maximum depth. This baffle will either go with small facets or I will make a router jig to hog off another 3/4" of material.

My question is how to do it for the Wavecor build. I'm thinking cut the facets with just the outer three layers of baffle glued together which should allow me to cut the facets almost 3.5" wide. Or should they be wider? The drawing doesn't really define the width of the facets. Thoughts?

Threatening weather and still thinking how I am going to do the taper jig pushed me to start cutting the Wavecor build's cabinet parts. All are cut to width. Bracing and mid sub enclosure parts cut to length. Hole saw or jasper jig for the holes in the braces? Enough large pieces of BB left over for a ZA14/TL N26 MT. Starting to feel like Jon with so many irons in the fire.

This was all green yesterday. There was a single hummingbird straggler at the feeder this weekend.

[TEK]

There are a lot of methods to create the Ardent facet's.
- Using a belt sand grinder, if I remember correct that what the gay fixing this for the "CNC-gang" did.
- Use a (electrical) planer - I used this method on my Avalon inspired subs. Quite similar to the grinder method I guess.
- Use a jig like yours, or a circle saw with angle support
This is what I did on mine (Festool circle saw). I had the same problem as you have, the blade did not go deep enough to cut all the way through.
I used the saw to cut as far as possible. Then I used a japanese saw to cut the last bit, and finally I sanded down anything not even enough.
(the japanese saw has the tooths' on a straight line, so it makes a much nicer cut than a regular saw)

[BobEllis]

Ah, an excuse to try a Japanese saw. Thanks TEK. I have a power plane, I may give that a shot, too.

[JonMarsh]

Don't hesitate to consult the Ardent and Isiris threads. My 10" circular saw is a Ryobi/Craftsman, and due to the arbor and pulley design, cuts much deeper than most 10's- as deep as many 12" saws. For the Isiris, and it's even deeper facets, I used the DeWalt DWS780 12" compound sliding miter saw, setup for optimum depth of cut. I picked the DWS80 because it had a longer crosscut capability than any other comparable saw, including the big Bosch. It was/is well worth the money. It's almost like cheating...



And on the worst of the cuts on the Isiris, I, too, used a Japanese hand saw to finish the last little bit...

[BobEllis]

I can rent the big Bosch saw locally. Ah decisions.

[Steve Manning]

I might be able to get another 1/8 inch of facet width, but as you can see it ain't much due to the fourth layer keeping the cut off the table and I only have 3.5" maximum depth. This baffle will either go with small facets or I will make a router jig to hog off another 3/4" of material.

Looking good Bob ........ I made a jig for my Bosch Trim router that does exactly what you are describing for the fourth layer. If your interested I can post some pictures, I also have a drawing with dimensions and all that stuff.

[BobEllis]

So a proper upper facet reaches the fourth layer? How wide should the baffle be at the top where top and side facets join? How far up is this edge from the center of the tweeter? I'm working in really flaky cell coverage where a page can take minutes to load so it's hard to look things up. I can get a decent signal at the lake but that tends to end work.

Early on in this thread a kind soul posted a router jig for cutting facets with a straight bit acting as a plane. That seems pretty straight forward once I get a router table insert to use as a base.

[dar47]

Looking good Bob.:T

If I was doing the facets,

For the MDF version cab I would cut with your jig and finish with any hand saw. You can use some belt sander paper attached to the face of a long flat board to true up the cut with the table saw cut. This is not much work with the softer MDF.

The BB end grain will be tougher so I would try a few passes with the table saw and jig increasing depth till your saw maxes out. The router with same angle jigged can plow to finish the cut very close. I didn't have to try but that was my thought if we had to go this route.

The table saw jig we used had 2 different bases with apposing tapers that could be flipped around to line the jig with the saw fence differently depending on what facet was being cut. ( I'll get Ben to post our jig or give the taper angle). This allowed cutting from reference marks placed in the middle of the baffle on both sides of the baffle.

The top of the baffle facet cut was cut first. Then marks to start the facet cuts on the sides were made in the middle of the baffle on both sides of the baffle. This is the reference on the drawing. 1'- 15/16" from the bottom for the bottom facet start cut and another 9 9/16" from the bottom for the start of the cut for the top side facet. Page 5 of the long thread kind of showing our guy with the panel saw using reference marks in the middle for 1 pass cuts.

With the thickness of our baffle material cutting through all layers at 40 deg cuts there was 1/8" of baffle left to meet with the side of the cabinet at the deepest point. If your baffle thickness is greater you will just have more material to meet the side of the cabinet. If less or like Tek you change the angle you will not flush with the side of the cabinet. The angle you cut determines how close you get to the driver holes so you can't use that as a distance reference unless your widiling to get there closer then us.

I would try a full facet cut attempt with the MDF on scrap and finish with the saw to get it down then go to your MDF cab.

[BobEllis]

Thanks for that input.

Veneer arrived. I'm happy. Surprisingly flat right out of the box.

[dar47]

Nice, and your another brave soul with the raw.:T

[BobEllis]

Crosscut sled for top and bottom cuts on sides. Rain kept me inside so I couldn't cut the end. Incra 24" slide.

[TEK]

Nice, and your another brave soul with the raw.:T

Yeah, good luck with that - just had a incident where I wet-sanded after spraying several coats of filler.
Ups - discovered that there were a small area on the top where the veneer had not bounded. The result was an area on the size of a small coin standing up like a big blister.
Manage to handle it by adding some glue with a syringe, allow time for it to dry
and sand down, but it shows the importance of doing a good ground work (several concurring factors led to me doing bad work on this exact area - but the it all resulted in this due to little softed veneer, glue on only one part before iron-on-veneering and to little glue applied)

Not going to do any more wet-sanding before after the top coat has been applied...

[BobEllis]

Sorry to hear that, TEK. I really appreciate your sharing so we all can learn, though. I had some bubbles ironing on paper backed veneer.

Sounds like the latest lessons are:
Prep, check and prep some more until it's perfect.
Make sure there's enough glue.
Proper pressure.

I'm thinking I will use the same epoxy that I'm sealing the cabinets with to glue down the veneer. No vacuum bag, just clamps and platen.

[Renron]

Bob,
You are progressing very well, I have a Japanese pull saw that I was planning on using to finish off the facet cuts. I bleed every time I use the darn thing, but I really like it. (masochist) Then block sanding to clean up the edges.
Using epoxy on the veneer may discolor that Freakishly Awesome looking maple. See what I did there???
I'd guess it would darken it somewhat. That is beautiful stuff. From where / whom was it purchased?

Tek, bubbles happen to everyone. I've yet to get a veneering project perfect. Maybe the "Peel and Stick" crowd is able, but Iron on / press always seems to have at least one bubble. Good job to catch it now.
Ron

[BobEllis]

It was from Joe Woodworker/ veneersupplies.com. Going to do some test panels first. There's enough extra to allow me some leeway to see how I do with joining pieces. Some darkening would be acceptable. We shall see what happens with TotalBoat epoxy.

Thoughts on the match on the sides? Book match or slip match? Centered along the panel or vertical?

[Steve Manning]

Bob, I would imagine that you have already seen this from Joe's site http://www.veneersupplies.com/produc...lor-Light.html

[BobEllis]

Yes, but considering I plan to seal at least end grain with epoxy it sounds like that's not the glue to use (for any porous surface.) JWW suggests epoxy for non-porous surfaces.

[Steve Manning]

Yes, but considering I plan to seal at least end grain with epoxy it sounds like that's not the glue to use (for any porous surface.) JWW suggests epoxy for non-porous surfaces.

Makes sense not to mix and match glues and saves money in the long run.

[Renron]

Wwjwwd :d

[TEK]

Bob,
Tek, bubbles happen to everyone. I've yet to get a veneering project perfect. Maybe the "Peel and Stick" crowd is able, but Iron on / press always seems to have at least one bubble. Good job to catch it now.
Ron

From what I can tell it has gone very well - except from the top.
What actually happend was that I had prepare two pices. Softened, added glue to the speaker and the two pices, and was ready to go.
Then I suddently discovered that I somewhat had missed - so both pices was to small. At the same time I was out of glue...
I used the prepared veneer pices as they were and glued them onto two test pices. This seemed to work out well - and I have later on used them to test finishes.

But, as that worked, and I was out of glue, and I already had added glue to the top of the speaker, I figured out that I should just go ahead. So I cut out two new pices and ironed them onto the top - expecting having only glue on the substrate should be enough. It was not...
I have had a lot of rounds with a syrin to fix those loose areas - and I did several times think about sanding them off and just do it over again. But finally I tought I had them all - but no, there was obvious one small place left. Got it fixed, but all rules changes when you have started to apply filler on the veneer.

[dar47]

This will be interesting, guess just one coat on the cab surface? I think you would want a fast drying one maybe 1 hour? The epoxy should absorb better then other glues but I would just worry a bought your veneer siding as it will take some time to develop grab. I would experiment with allowing the epoxy to thicken may 20 minutes on the 1 hour stuff just to allow some pre-cure? It would be nice to see some pics of your process, good luck!

[BobEllis]

I plan to roughly follow the WEST System boatbuilding technique. A sealer cost of epoxy just to be sure I don't get dry spots after applying the veneer, sanded smooth then a bond coat. Still will use fails clamped to ensure flatness. If I get bleed through at seams with significant darkening then a thin top coat of epoxy then some form of clear coat. But of course the best battle plans get thrown out as soon as the battle starts. I hope to have my girlfriend take some in process pictures but it may just be as each step is complete.

[TEK]

What is the pro's of using epoxy under the veneer instead of using regular wood glue?
When using raw veneer you are basically gluing wood-to-wood, and in that matter using regular wood glue should give you a joint that is as strong or stronger than the wood itself.

Using contact glue I understand as that will bound instantly and you are not that dependent on pressure. And I also get why you would use epoxy before using contact glue and paper backed veneer, as you need to stabilize the substrate when using contact glue - as contact glue does not make a hard bound and if the wood moves that might cause issues as the veneer will not move with the wood.

But I dont quite get the pro's of using epoxy when gluing wood-to-wood. Could you explain how that will work?

[BobEllis]

I'm concerned about the BB end grain and seams telegraphing through the veneer. To hide them I'm using epoxy to seal. That means that the veneer is being glued to an epoxy surface, not wood and a normal wood glue won't adhere. Probably other ways around the telegraphing issue but I won't have to worry about materials compatibility using the same material to seal and glue.

[JonMarsh]

I'm concerned about the BB end grain and seams telegraphing through the veneer. To hide them I'm using epoxy to seal. That means that the veneer is being glued to an epoxy surface, not wood and a normal wood glue won't adhere. Probably other ways around the telegraphing issue but I won't have to worry about materials compatibility using the same material to seal and glue.

Very true, Bob... the only other approach on top of epoxy that seems viable to me is the 3M PSA. Good luck with these steps!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for that input.

Veneer arrived. I'm happy. Surprisingly flat right out of the box.

Looks like great stuff, Bob!

[BobEllis]

Thanks for the vote of support, Jon. I'm sitting up here at 62 degrees hoping it will get warm long enough for me to get to the epoxy steps. The forecast is to return to the 80s next week but then cooling so I have to get cracking.

I'm really happy with the way the veneer looks and perhaps more importantly my girlfriend thinks it's wonderful, too.

[TEK]

I'm concerned about the BB end grain and seams telegraphing through the veneer. To hide them I'm using epoxy to seal. That means that the veneer is being glued to an epoxy surface, not wood and a normal wood glue won't adhere. Probably other ways around the telegraphing issue but I won't have to worry about materials compatibility using the same material to seal and glue.

Ahh, then I see.
I had the same concern myself. Added a thin layer of 3mm MDF to try to avoid the telegraphing issue.
I'm interested to see your experience with using epoxy to glue on the raw veneer. Don't think I have seen that done other places. If it works out well it might be a path I will follow in the future.

[BobEllis]

Of course they are using thicker veneers, but http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...k%20061205.pdf.

[BobEllis]

Frequent rain kept me from working on facets, but I made a little progress on the Wavecor build. All panels laminated, ready for final trim to size and rabbets/dados. The sides: