Poor Man's Ardent inspired design and build

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Jon.

I've been riding my bicycle with my girlfriend lately when the weather cooperates which hasn't left much time available for speaker building. Finally we both decided we need a break and I got to work.

Turns out that the time I spent tweaking my old Craftsman radial arm saw would have been better spent buying a new table saw. I straightened an edge on my rough cut panels, and halfway through cutting the practice build's third side panel the saw locked up. Not sure whether the break is engaging or the bearings are shot but after cooling it will barely turn. Tried cleaning out the brake again without luck.

Off to buy a saw. Probably a Kobalt based on price, reviews and availability only 40 miles away. The joys of rural New York. Rather pedal the almost traffic free roads around here than most of the places I've lived.

[JonMarsh]

I hear you Bob, the only problem with getting away from it all, is that you're away from it all! Sometimes I feel that way even in Danville, in the East Bay. We don't even have a McDonalds in this town (fine by me!) but we are getting a Panera by August. The only hardware store is an Ace Hardware, and it's better than nothing, but it's not a Woodcraft store...

Sorry to hear about your saw, but in the end, this is likely to be all for the best. And speaking of rural New York, I have an artist friend who lives outside of Westport. It's just across the lake from Vermont, where she used to live, when she felt like she had to be a little further away from her parents and other family in Westport (separated by a ferry ride?) (that after deciding Boulder Colorado was a little bit TOO MUCH further away...)

[Renron]

Thank you Jon,
Your efforts are greatly appreciated and your timing could not be better. I just finished my 3 year long project which had to be completed before I could begin work on these magnificent speakers. The Wife unit just gave her approval to buy some lumber for this project too.
As you know, I've decided that I would like to build a Mid price point Wavecor Ardent for a couple of reasons. As I've grown older, my hearing loss has gotten worse and I cannot hear crickets in one ear. Second is, frankly, Money. I also do not have the associated equipment to do justice to the "Full Monty" build either. I suspect I'm not alone in the Champagne tastes but Beer budget conundrum.
Your help with the distortion measurements and XO design is truly a labor of love. Thank you. I'm sure the other builders who have come before me will glad to help with my future questions. Thanks in Advance!
Should I start a new thread/build so I don't pollute Bob's Poor Man's Thread?
Thanks,
Ron

Bob, Try looking around on Craigslist for a used cabinet saw, you'd be surprised how inexpensive they can be. I bought an old Delta Unisaw ~$275 and put $100 into it and it runs like brand new.

[Renron]

Bob,
Looking back at post #220, the silver dome on the Seas Tweeter looks good with Zaph's Mid. They complement each other well.
Just thinking outloud.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

It would be great for you to start a separate thread, not so much the pollution factor, but so that it would be easier for other people to follow, especially those who might have a real interest in a similar project. Since I have the design files, obviously the next step is to modify the design! Remind me, what tweeter did you have in mind?

If you create a new thread, I can move these key posts over to it right away.

[5th element]

The 12MU measures very nicely. It's certainly not a bad proposition, low linear distortion and nice low non linear. Sure it has that typical 2nd order peak around where the usual surround/cone edge resides, but apart from that it's very nice. Expensive, but nice.

[Renron]

I've started a new thread entitled "Wavecor Ardent Mid Priced Build" as that is my intention. With help from Y'all.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42798-Wavecor-Ardent-Mid-Priced-Build&p=602722#post602722

I've got the SS 6600 tweeters already, so I'll use those.

I wish I understood how to read the graphs better, I get the basics but I've no personal experience (yet). I'm glad you think the 12MUs will be a reasonable, lower cost, replacement. I picked them up on sale.

5th Element, your comments are appreciated and reassure me I'm on the right track with a Mid priced build. Any and all pointers are gladly accepted and welcome.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Small world, Jon. I am in Essex at the family summer camp. That's just 10 miles north of Westport. We've pedaled through Westport a few times recently.

[BobEllis]

Edge straightening so there's proof of progress

[JonMarsh]

OK! BTW, that's one of my favorite brands of routers- I have two of the original M12V! Absolutely marvelous motors and design- second to no one! But heavy... definitely not for laminate trim! :W

[Steve Manning]

Nice with the router, Have not tried that trick. I do a similar thing with my circular saw ...... my poor mans imitation of a Festool.

[BobEllis]

Not surprised you like the router, Jon. I bought it based on your recommendation years ago.

My circular saw wanders too much even with a guide board. The blade and base are only parallel as long as you don't use it.

[JonMarsh]

The blade and base are only parallel as long as you don't use it.

THAT is a classic quote! One for the ages!

[BobEllis]

Well, for those interested in an inexpensive table saw, I'm really happy with the Kobalt. The guy at Lowes tried to sell me the Porter Cable in the same price range but the box looked like it had fallen off a balcony. Saved the $40 and took home the Kobalt.

Assembly was quick and easy. The blade was about 1.5 mm out of parallel but at 90 deg to the table. Had it spot on but tightening the trunnions knocked it back out .25 mm. The bolts are tough to reach, so I called it a day. The riving knife wasn't perfectly behind the blade. Adjusting it was simple, although I had to supply my own hex wrench.

As expected at this price point the rip fence needs care setting. Following the instructions it usually sets up a little skewed, maybe 1-2 mm out of parallel. After adjusting it parallel I made the first couple of cuts. Using a well worn Freud 80T blade the saw has plenty of power to feed 3/4" mdf as fast as I wanted. Cuts were smooth and parallel. With a shop vac connected to the dust outlet almost no dust escaped.

The down side? The universal motor is loud. It's too light to handle a full sheet, but I usually work alone so knock everything down to 2' x 4' anyway. We will see how it holds up, but initial results are promising.

[TEK]

Not surprised you like the router, Jon. I bought it based on your recommendation years ago.

My circular saw wanders too much even with a guide board. The blade and base are only parallel as long as you don't use it.

Ouch, that explains it. I could at first not understand why you would use a router after making the cut.

[Renron]

Congratulations on the new toy. I hope it serves you well for years to come. Sounds like a winner, 80 tooth blade? Sounds like a cross cut blade. Put a good rip blade on it and you should be in saw-dust heaven.
If a new blade is in your future, or your looking to have some blades or bits sharpened, give Dynamic Saw some consideration. I had some sharpened (including 2 Forrest) along with a few router bits and they are like new. I have no affiliation with them, just excellent prices and service.
Great explanations of the different types of blades and designs. ie; Triple chip, ATB, FTG ect. and when to use each.

http://www.dynamicsaw.com/new-sawblade.html

Ron

[BobEllis]

IIRC it's a FReud LU75m I figured a high tooth count makes sense for mdf and ply but have a new Freud LM75R for ripping the bamboo. Are you suggesting the rip blade for MDF and BB?

[Renron]

Bob,
Here is a good explanation for the different types of blades available. Some of this I just learned.
BTW, this was NOT meant for you, it was meant for anyone who wants to know whats available in blades and how to chose the best one(s) for their applications.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/essential-tablesaw-blades

Ron

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Ron

[JonMarsh]

This is one of those articles that's a good save to Evernote using the web clipper.

I had a similar article from one of the blade manufacturers years ago; whenever my girl friend asks me why I have so many circular saw blades, I just email it to her iPad. (she has more tools than a lot of guys I know, but still has a somewhat superficial understanding of selection and usage). I'm going to copy that posting to the woodworking thread.

[Steve Manning]

Might be good to put in the woodworking advise thread ......

[JonMarsh]

was done minutes after I posted in this thread... :W

[dwk]

Finally, some progress. Baffles routed for SS6600, ZA14 and RS225. I glued up inner and outer layers before routing. Still need to chamfer the ZA14 openings, but didn't have a suitable bit with me.
Outdoor work is interesting - focusing muscles aren't the only ones that get slow, weak with age. Going inside to change bits and get dimensions of the next cut took a long time to adjust.

I guess this is what happens when you only come around here every few months - you miss stuff. Very intrigued by your 'cheapie' Ardent project. You mentioned a MiniDSP earlier - is that the plan for the xover? My wife and I are debating maybe starting in on a teardrop trailer project which would monopolize my shop time for the next year (or more), but if not this could be a cool winter project.

I'll definitely be watching.

[BobEllis]

I think I'll use the miniDSP for the woofer to mid XO, at least at first. I've played with it a bit and it seems to at least match my active XOs using OPA2134 op amps. I only have the 2x4, so going full active would require using the FW410 interface that is also my measurement mike preamp. I need some sort of sequencer to avoid power on and off bumps.

[BobEllis]

A little progress to report. Baffles chamfered, assembled and other cabinet parts cut to width. It's been a battle with the weather. Working outside, I have to wait for the ground to dry so I don't tempt fate standing in a mud puddle. It's been darned hot, the summer camp is not air conditioned, so it's 10 minutes in front of the fan for every 5 working. Then we have our afternoon thunderstorms. At least they have been moving slowly enough that when I hear a rumble through my earplugs I have time to pull everything back inside. Glue up and dry fit is on the porch so rain isn't a total washout. It won't be long before it's assembly so I won't be so weather dependent.

I took the baffle parts to my Dad's when I went to get him set up at home post surgical rehab. I forgot that I had grabbed some of the clamps out of my trunk, so I wasn't able to do anything other than chamfer the mid cutouts. Boy, did my Hitachi MV12 make quick work of that. I agree with Jon that this is one of the must have routers. Although I only have one.



In the you can never have too many clamps department, I glued up the baffles on the porch to stay out of the sun. I couldn't get a shot without so much contrast, but you get the idea.



Speaking of adding to the clamp collection, I went to buy some of those lovely parallel jaw clamps I've seen others here use. Most on the rack at the store looked like this:



Guess I need to look to another brand.

This build will make use of my biscuit joiner, so here's a shot getting the mid sub chamber placement marked up. Although generally following the Ardent build, I am only using a single 3/4" thickness of mdf other than the baffle. I also added a couple of inches to the depth to make the RS225s a little happier. I'm adding a couple inches to the height, since I am a bit taller than average, too. Bracing will be cross braces rather than the matrix in the original.

The eagle eyed will see the distraction that has kept me from spending as much time on this project as I might have hoped. Even when I plan a ride then speaker building I end up pushing hard and get to that fuzzy brained place where power tools aren't a good idea. Nice to be getting fit again, though.



Then just to get a feel for how the assembly will go. Not the largest speakers I've built, but not much smaller. Glad my girlfriend appreciates good sound and is willing to have this in our living room. Thank goodness the facets will make it visually smaller. Halogen shop light filling in the darkness.



Next is cutting the angles on the cabinet parts. Once the cabinets are assembled, I will cut the baffles to width. That's going to be a bit of a challenge with my low powered tablesaw. I guess it's a rip blade and multiple passes. If worse comes to worse, I have a pattern bit and flush trim bit that will allow the MV12 to do the job. That's how I got one clean edge on the baffles.

[Steve Manning]

Some nice progress Bob ....... I know what you mean with the weather and having to work outside in the heat ...... I picked up an inexpensive tent when I was doing my Jensen's made a big difference just getting in the shade




A suggestion for you on the clamps .... I use Jet and they work great. They are more expensive than what you get at the big box stores but I look for sales of them in sets on Amazon and have saved considerably. They are also nice if you have a work bench with dog holes since can attached bench dogs to the clamps and it locks everything to the bench nice and square. I also hear Bessy and Jorgensen are good but I don't have any experience with them.

[BobEllis]

Thanks, Steve. I think a canopy like that is in my future. I have a number of Jorgenson clamps, and they are great. Standard bar clamps, pipe clamps and the handscrews in the picture, just no parallel jaw clamps.

[BobEllis]

A bit more progress. Missing my radial arm saw for this part. Cutting the top and bottom angles on the sides would not work on my table saw without making a crosscut sled. The miter gauge doesn't have enough reach to properly guide a panel 14" wide (I went deeper than standard to get more volume for the RS225s) and the whole thing seemed a bit wobbly at full extension. So, it was Hitachi to the rescue again. Hand rough cut the first edge with the wandering circular saw, clamp a straightedge along the desired angle, flush trim and then use that as a pattern to do the other edges.





Using the first cut as a pattern for the second to ensure the ends were somewhat parallel. Then used the first completed side as a pattern for the remaining 3 panels.



I managed to get one cabinet glued up - bracing to be added next. Not sure why I decided to do it in this order other than a desire to see some glued up progress and rain was threatening. We ended up getting a dozen drops, but it looked really nasty. Yes, it's bright sunshine in the background. The skies cleared within minutes of my pulling everything inside.



The social schedule will slow progress for a bit, but I should be able to at least get the other cabinet glued up next weekend.

[Renron]

Good to see progress Bob, we had the exact rain pattern on Friday. In a panic I pulled all my tools / wood inside only to see the sun come out immediately after. Somebody thought that was funny. No dado on this build eh?
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Nice solution on the angles Bob ....... I put together a crosscut sled when I built my Jensen's, made all those angles rather straight forward after that. I'm in the process of building a new sled that I can cut compound angles for my next project ..... that should be interesting.

+1 on the saw horses, I have a pair just like them hanging in my garage.

[BobEllis]

No dados, Ron. Biscuit joinery. I'll rout dados on the next build.

Steve, I would like to make a crosscut but didn't have suitable materials on hand and didn't want to make the 40 mile trip to the nearest lumber source. I was planning to buy heavier sawhorses but on sale for $20 I am happy with these.

[Steve Manning]

Steve, I would like to make a crosscut but didn't have suitable materials on hand and didn't want to make the 40 mile trip to the nearest lumber source. I was planning to buy heavier sawhorses but on sale for $20 I am happy with these.

40 miles, that's a pain ...... that would make sure you pick everything up that you need when you do make the trip. Those sawhorses being able to support a 1000 lbs for $20 is hard to pass up. I told my son in-law about them and he picked up 2 sets.

[BobEllis]

At Renron's suggestion I asked for a Dynamic Saw GP blade for my upcoming birthday. My girlfriend spoke with Steven, who was pretty insistent that he should talk to me about what I was doing to ensure I got the proper blade. He suggested their LM1080X for ply and MDF to minimize tearouts. It has geometry in line with the article Ron posted's suggestion for what to buy after a GP blade. http://www.dynamicsaw.com/laminate-sawblade-prices.html It has a stated max depth of cut of 1" which I questioned for the facet cuts. He seemed to think it will do well as long as it's just a corner removal like the Ardents, where cutting a deep chamfer running parallel to the edge would be more problematic. (for that he'd want a custom blade with fewer teeth in the same geometry. Didn't ask the pricing). We had a nice discussion about saw blade geometry and kitchen knives (Steven loves knives), I'll report back once I receive and use the blade, but if it's half as good as customer service, it will be fantastic.

They also sharpen blades and router bits for very reasonable prices. I will send them several older blades and bits in a USPS flat rate box shortly. That may help my wandering circular saw.

[Renron]

Thanks Bob,
I am happy with their sharpening services on router bits and blades. Anxious to hear your thoughts on their brand blades. Agree, super customer service from these folks.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Progress again. Both cabinets assembled and braced. Baffles cut to length and 10°. That part was interesting because as I started assembling a crosscut sled I realized that I didn't have the depth of cut needed to cut the baffles if they were on top of the sled. Luckily I had enough extra baffle length to make a few practice cuts to hone my technique. Overall it came out pretty well considering the flimsy miter gauge that comes with my saw. I will probably take the week after Labor Day to cut facets and attach baffles. My back doesn't like the lifting or bending over, so it goes slowly.





Yes, I used a rip blade to cut the baffles and trim to width, figuring there's no way I could push an 80 tooth blade through 3" of MDF



By the way, it's always a good idea to maintain a firm grip on the cabinets when moving them. At least the cabinet was undamaged. The lake is one of the many distractions that have slowed progress on this project.

[BobEllis]

Mini product review section:

Dynamic Saw LM1080X - The cut is really nice. Feeding it 3/4" mdf or 1/2" Aspen ply there was never a hint of slowing the saw, no matter how fast I pushed it through. Cuts were smooth with just a little tearout on the ply. Although it only has 4 laser cuts to dampen the blade vibrations it was quieter than either of my Freud blades. (An old LU85R010 with 8 laser cuts and a new LU74R010 with loads of laser cuts) The dominant sound running not cutting was the air flow into the dust collection. Overall, it's a winner and I'm sending them a few old blades and bits to sharpen.





Tearout shots - these were the worst areas. Thumb for scale. Most people I meet for the first time comment about how big my hands are. That thumb is probably 25% bigger than you think it is.




If you use a shop vac to collect sawdust, you really should get one of these. Some dust gets through, but the vast majority ends up in the bucket. I did several times more cutting than used to require unclogging the vac's filter with no noticeable loss in suction. There is some insertion loss, of course, more than made up for by not clogging up the vac's filter. For now I just have some weight in the bottom bucket to keep it upright. If I start working where wheels make sense it will be assembled to the vac.

[Renron]

Bob,
" At least the cabinet was undamaged." Way to take one for the team! You are a true professional, sacrifice your own flesh for the safety of the cabinet. I salute you! I bet that smarted a bit. Nice to see your progress. Is there a layer of plywood under the MDF baffle? Asking due to the color difference(s).
Damn straight the cabinets are heavy, be careful of your back. Are you planning on any additional layers of material on the outside of the MDF?
Good use of materials on the "mid-back" section. Gotta love a frugal guy. Not sarcastic.

Thanks for the review of their blades, I was happy with their re-sharpening service and the next blade I purchase will be from them. Very glad it cuts so well and quiet is always a bonus. That tear out is acceptable for non Baltic Birch plywood, I would think almost zero with BB. Glad your happy with the blade. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Nice.
" Thumb for scale." Great idea having a reference in the photo.
" Most people I meet for the first time comment about how big my hands are. That thumb is probably 25% bigger than you think it is." In Benny Hill's voice : Yeah, and I bet the girls like you.......:roll::rofl:

Thanks for the update and pictures Bob, keep your back to the lake when your cutting. Less distractions. Beautiful background.

Ron

[Steve Manning]

Looks like you've been busy Bob ....... cabinets are looking good, nice job on the leg 8O hopefully it's not slowing you down too much. I found that once my Jensen cabinets got to a certain point I drug my wife out to help me move stuff around. After many years I've finally learned just because I can pick it up doesn't mean it's smart to do so. It's either that or get an engine lift, that mdf gets heavy.

The new saw blade seem to be working well ...... for that last bit of tear out protection, have you tried painters tape on the cut? I've found it helps if I'm really trying for a clean cut.

I like the dust collector, I want to add one to my shop vac at some point. I've put the big brother to yours on my dust collector and it works great.

[BobEllis]

No, it's just MDF this time around. The color difference may be that is the edge that I straightened with the router. Pattern and flush trim bits, one pass one direction, another the other way. Bits need sharpening...

No outer layers. I think I will just seal with West System Epoxy. I did some boat work with it way back when. Hoping a gallon will give me enough for both sets. Yes, it's not exactly poor man material, but a quart won't be enough for the next build and a gallon is too much. Call it using leftovers from a planned project.

As much lazy as frugal with the bracing. It's all butt joints and biscuits so mid enclosure, top and back are the same width. I just cut an extra strip to give me some braces to work with. The thought of cutting lots of little holes in MDF braces didn't thrill me. It should be less problematic with the next build's BB, but I am searching out vacuum hoses and adapters to improve my dust collection.

That aspen ply is a substitute for the 1/2" MDF the Ardent plans call for. The box stores around here don't carry thinner MDF. I intended to rip some of the full boogie build's BB pieces to see how that went, but my bicycle called.

If I get these done before cold weather sets in the camp will get a scraping, a coat of paint and some lattice repair, otherwise that will happen next spring.

Sheesh, another Benny Hill fan.

[BobEllis]

Shop envy, Steve. My brother and I both want to add a shop/shed but the Adirondack Park Agency makes adding buildings difficult. I think we are going to have to push it, though.

I haven't tried painter's tape, thanks for the suggestion. I'll try both bare and taped on BB and report back after next weekend's work. Excited to think I'm going to start laminating the panels of the Wavecor version soon.

I was expecting the leg to bother me a heck of a lot more. Got in the shower this morning and thought I had glue on my leg until I looked at the scabs. I got lucky on that one.

[Steve Manning]

Ah good old red tape ...... some of it's good, but some of it is because they can ...... I guess if you could up something that blends in nicely with the environment that might appease them?

I can relate to the shop envy ...... my brother and parents share a piece of property ( has two houses on it) they are putting up a 60' X 40' shop with three bays in it ...... I would be in heaven with that much space. I have a two car garage but it's shared with a bunch of other stuff. Once I get back to work and determine if we are staying or not, I'd like to build a larger shed out back and move some stuff out there so I can leave tools set in place rather than constantly moving them.

[BobEllis]

Good luck getting back to work. This has to be a tough time for you.

While I appreciate wilderness preservation, this is an agency that leans towards "because we can", with a motto "Stop making sense." Years ago the community wanted to replace a recreation building by the shore that amounted to a room and an attached bathroom. No, you can't replace it. They would allow remodeling, without any concerns about the septic system a few yards from the shore. So we tore down the room leaving the bathroom intact. The replacement room was built with two nails attaching it to the old bathroom at more than twice the size, permissible because 80 years earlier there had been a building that size there. Once the new room was completed with an internal bathroom, we tore down the old bathroom. The APA was happy with our remodel.

A friend in CT got around the rules with a shed that was built on skids - no permanent foundation, it was delivered on a flatbed and dropped on a bed of gravel. Not a permanent building, no permit required. Something like that may work until we connect power to it.

[Renron]

Steve,
Red tape; I thought you had come up with a new phrase for the scabs on Bob's leg!
When I lived at Lake Tahoe, we had a self appointed planning commission called TRPA. Tahoe Regional Planning Agency.
Most of the self appointed members had Huge Lake front houses, and the mind set to keep others from remodeling or building anywhere in the "Basin". We used to say they were "Unemployable people keeping employable people unemployed". The hoops we had to jump through....... One remodel we left 1 bathroom wall standing, tore down the entire house around it. Rebuilt a newer and bigger home added a second story, then remodeled that bathroom. TRPA was happy because we paid through the nose building fees. Which, no doubt, funded some other not allowed building permit, until the fees were paid. No logic, just "Good Feelings".

Painters tape is a good trick to prevent edge blow out. Keeping the blade low helps too, just high enough to see the bottom of the gullet behind the tooth. On the REALLY pricey wood we would put a sacrificial board underneath and rip/crosscut both at the same time, ie; 1/4" hardboard. Never tried cardboard, just thought of it.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Another trick to try. Thanks, Ron.

[Steve Manning]

One more for tear out ..... it might preclude you from having to add the hardboard underneath, use a zero clearance insert on the table saw ..... depending on your saw you can make your own or buy them. Add the tape on top of your board for critical cuts and your good to go.