Finalists questions

[Avalanche]

Hi,
This is my first speaker build and I chose the Finalists because I'm looking for big sound in a small case.
1. Component source: Can the parts be bought from a European supplier? Does this site include all the parts needed? http://meniscusaudio.com/finalist-pair-p-1364.html The photo doesn't show the port tube... where can I get it?
2. Which damping material and case material could be used for it?
3. Which budget system should drive it adaquetly?
4. Which stand should I build for them?

Thanks

[Jim Holtz]

Hi,
This is my first speaker build and I chose the Finalists because I'm looking for big sound in a small case.
1. Component source: Can the parts be bought from a European supplier? Does this site include all the parts needed? http://meniscusaudio.com/finalist-pair-p-1364.html The photo doesn't show the port tube... where can I get it?
2. Which damping material and case material could be used for it?
3. Which budget system should drive it adaquetly?
4. Which stand should I build for them?

Thanks

Hi Avalanche,

I'll see if I can answer your questions;

1. Meniscus can supply a port that can be sized to 2 1/2 x 7 3/4" in the kit I'm sure. Let them know you need a port too. I'm in the states so I don't know of European suppliers.

2. Standard building materials for speakers is MDF due to it's lack of resonances when properly braced. Follow the drawings on Meniscus web site and you'll be fine. Lumber yards/home stores sell MDF in the states.

3. The better the amplification and front end electronics, the better they'll sound. I've been running separates for 30+ years but a high quality receiver that puts out a "real" 100 watts per channel will be fine too.

4. The stand height depends on you. Your seated ear height should be positioned at the bottom of the tweeter/top of the mid for optimal sound quality.

Don't forget that The Finalists require 18" space from the back of the speaker to the wall behind it in open mid mode. 6" - 12" will "work" closed back but you'll not hear nearly as spacious of mid range in closed back mode.

Hope that helps! Good luck with the build. We love to see pictures.

Jim

[Avalanche]

Thank you Jim for your thorough and promt reply

I thought some stands might amplify low frequencies. I suppose the stand should be as firm as possible but they won't have much mass.
Will the UPA-200 Emotiva amp drive them properly, fed from an HRT streamer dac?

[Finleyville]

I have built a pair of these and from my experience they GOBBLE power. This isn't a negative thing. It is just that I don't believe they will open up to their best ability with anything less than 200W per side. I have heard these with a Rotel 1080 and a Rotel 1090. They sounded just alright with the smaller amp but started to shine with the 1090. The first time I listened to them I was using a modest Denon receiver and had to turn up the volume to half way just to hear some music, 3/4 to hear at any decent level. You will probably be please with the UPA200. But I bet you would love the XPA-200 even more with this design. In fact, I plan on driving these with a XPA-200 or an older Adcom GFA-555. I think that would be plenty. Good luck with the build!

[Jim Holtz]

I have built a pair of these and from my experience they GOBBLE power. This isn't a negative thing. It is just that I don't believe they will open up to their best ability with anything less than 200W per side. I have heard these with a Rotel 1080 and a Rotel 1090. They sounded just alright with the smaller amp but started to shine with the 1090. The first time I listened to them I was using a modest Denon receiver and had to turn up the volume to half way just to hear some music, 3/4 to hear at any decent level. You will probably be please with the UPA200. But I bet you would love the XPA-200 even more with this design. In fact, I plan on driving these with a XPA-200 or an older Adcom GFA-555. I think that would be plenty. Good luck with the build!

Hi Michael,

I drive my pair with either an Emotiva LPA-1 (125 watts) or an old Hafler DH-220 (115 watts) and both will provide 105+ db easily. That concerns me that your pair are that hard to bring to full volume.

Jim

[Paul K.]

I'd be concerned, too. My normal listening level in my sweet-spot recliner is ~80 dB SPL average with, presumably, peaks at ~90 dB SPL. At a 1-meter distance this translates to ~90 dB average and 100 dB peaks. I can't begin to imagine listening at average levels of 105 dB (re: 1 meter) or 95 dB (re: my sweet spot)!8O So, either Finleyville's Finalists aren't working properly or he needs/likes to listen at a much higher SPL.
Paul

Hi Michael,

I drive my pair with either an Emotiva LPA-1 (125 watts) or an old Hafler DH-220 (115 watts) and both will provide 105+ db easily. That concerns me that your pair are that hard to bring to full volume.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

I'd be concerned, too. My normal listening level in my sweet-spot recliner is ~80 dB SPL average with, presumably, peaks at ~90 dB SPL. At a 1-meter distance this translates to ~90 dB average and 100 dB peaks. I can't begin to imagine listening at average levels of 105 dB (re: 1 meter) or 95 dB (re: my sweet spot)!8O So, either Finleyville's Finalists aren't working properly or he needs/likes to listen at a much higher SPL.
Paul

Hi Paul,

I listen at the same level you do. The 105 was me testing here at home and Curt had The Finalists cranked to 11o without a hint of distress. That was with a Marantz integrated I think. Anyway, they'll hit high levels comfortably with 100+ watts at 8 ohms of course. I'd guess that translates to 150 - 200 watts at 4 ohms.

Jim

[Avalanche]

Looks like I'll need a usb DAC too. Which is recommended to go along with the UPA-200 Emotiva? A receiver will be fine too I guess.

[Jim Holtz]

I'd suggest that you go with the UPA-200 rather than a receiver. Check out the Cambridge Audio DacMagic. They come in different varieties including a model with a built in preamp. BTW, I've not heard these, only read reviews. I have a modified tube DAC in my main system and a tube buffer in the 2nd system.

Jim

[Avalanche]

I didn't know a preamp was needed...
Regarding placement, will they be worth buliding if placed in a non symetrical room, 1m apart, and close to a wall on one side?

[Finleyville]

I drive my pair with either an Emotiva LPA-1 (125 watts) or an old Hafler DH-220 (115 watts) and both will provide 105+ db easily. That concerns me that your pair are that hard to bring to full volume

Perhaps I should have been more clear. My Denon receiver is only a 80W model. I can get the output that I want from it. But, again, the volume is halfway for comfortable levels and higher for those songs that asked to be loud. heehee. Comparatively, the Zaph L18's that are usually driven by the Denon just need a small amount of volume to make them shine. But we are definitely talking apples to elephants comparisons here.

I guess what I have been trying to say is that the Statements sound better with more power. I think that they scale up well and the additional headroom offered by the bigger amps is audible. Do you NEED 200W just to listen to these? No. Will you hear a difference if you choose a bigger, better equipment? Yes. I think that is a mark of a good design.

[Jim Holtz]

I didn't know a preamp was needed...
Regarding placement, will they be worth buliding if placed in a non symetrical room, 1m apart, and close to a wall on one side?

The Finalists and all of the Statements series speakers have minimum wall placement requirements to sound as designed and sound their best. I honestly don't know of any speakers that will perform as designed with only 1 meter (3 foot) between them. The old audiophile formula was that the seating position was a triangle about 1 1/2 times the distance that the speakers were separated. Normally that dictates no less than about 5 - 6 feet separation between the speakers and a seating position about 8 feet back. More is better. I built a listening/home theater room when I built my house and I sit about 17 feet back with 11 feet between the speakers and have wall reinforcement behind and to the sides of the speakers with 18" of clearance.

So, to answer your question, I have no idea what they'll sound like in your situation. At a minimum, I'm guessing that you would only be able to use them in closed back mode with your positioning limitations.

If you have separates, some kind of preamp is required to control the volume of the signal to the amp. The DAC I indicated had one model with a built in volume control for a minimalist system that would allow connection of the DAC directly to the amp. A receiver with pre-outs can be a good starter system that allows you to add an external amp in the future for more power. Few retrievers will come close to meeting their advertised power rating. Very, very few separate home audio amps will not meet their advertised specs.

Hope that helps!

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. My Denon receiver is only a 80W model. I can get the output that I want from it. But, again, the volume is halfway for comfortable levels and higher for those songs that asked to be loud. heehee. Comparatively, the Zaph L18's that are usually driven by the Denon just need a small amount of volume to make them shine. But we are definitely talking apples to elephants comparisons here.

I guess what I have been trying to say is that the Statements sound better with more power. I think that they scale up well and the additional headroom offered by the bigger amps is audible. Do you NEED 200W just to listen to these? No. Will you hear a difference if you choose a bigger, better equipment? Yes. I think that is a mark of a good design.

OK, now I understand what you're saying. I agree that 80 watts is on the minimal side to drive The Finalists or any of the Statements speakers. When it comes to power, more is better... Much better! :T

Jim

[Avalanche]

Thanks again Jim. Just so it'll be clear, I made a diagram to show the possible positions:



As you can see space is limited.. Position A looks more fitting acoustically. Unfortunately these are the best arrangements I could do which won't collide with furniture/wife.
Will the Finalists be a good choice? Reminder: It's purpose is music, high spl isn't necessary.

[Jim Holtz]

That helps to clarify what your positioning limitations are. Of the two placements, the one in the corner is far better based on the drawing.

The only difference placement wise between The Finalists and any other design is the necessity in open back mode of having breathing room behind the speaker (18"+ preferable) to sound their best. However, a flip of the switch, plug the mid tunnel and they can be positioned under 12" from the wall behind. The problem you're facing is distance between the speakers which applies to all speakers. I think the corner spot would work the best.

You might consider setting The Finalists on them stands that could be moved further apart and out into the room when you have some "personal" time and want to really do some serious listening. Regardless, the spot should work.

Jim

[Avalanche]

You might consider setting The Finalists on them stands that could be moved further apart and out into the room when you have some "personal" time and want to really do some serious listening. Regardless, the spot should work.

That's an idea... what should I use instead of spikes then so they could be moved?

I think I'll follow Finleyville and swap the R3011 resistor with a 2.7 ohm. Are there any special requirements of the resistor or a 2.7 Ohm 10 Watt MOX will do it?

I can't wait to hear them...
Thanks again Jim.

[Jim Holtz]

That's an idea... what should I use instead of spikes then so they could be moved?

I think I'll follow Finleyville and swap the R3011 resistor with a 2.7 ohm. Are there any special requirements of the resistor or a 2.7 Ohm 10 Watt MOX will do it?

I can't wait to hear them...
Thanks again Jim.

I'm not sure what you have in mind but spikes are used to couple the stand/speaker to the floor so theoretically, the bass will be tighter. Honestly. I've used/not used spikes and have not heard the difference. YMMV...

Michael used RS28a tweeters rather than the speced RS28f. RS28a's roll off above 17k and offer a muted top end to my ears. I've never been a fan of the hard dome "A" series. However, the "F" series are a soft dome and have a slightly rising response on the top end that I think sounds much more realistic. I like them a lot. I'd suggest you go with the resistors as speced and see if you like it that way. I think you'll find them very balanced and "airy" with the speced resistor. It's very easy to change if you want more.

Jim

[Finleyville]

Michael used RS28a tweeters rather than the speced RS28f. RS28a's roll off above 17k and offer a muted top end to my ears. I've never been a fan of the hard dome "A" series. However, the "F" series are a soft dome and have a slightly rising response on the top end that I think sounds much more realistic. I like them a lot. I'd suggest you go with the resistors as speced and see if you like it that way. I think you'll find them very balanced and "airy" with the speced resistor. It's very easy to change if you want more.

That is correct. I already owned the RS28a's and the RS225's shielded drivers instead of the specced RS28f's and the unshielded RS225's. The differences were that I needed an additional ~15 liters enclosure space for the woofers and I just figured out a small change in the crossover for MY tweeters. If you do not already own the older drivers like I did then do yourself a favor and purchase the kit as shown by Jim and Curt. My guess is that you will not need to change anything in that crossover. If I didn't already own 4 out of the 6 drivers (sorta) I would have just purchased the kit.

[Avalanche]

Oh OK, I should have read more carefully... I'll order the kit and post pics when it's done.

[Avalanche]

I tried to calculate the power needed but didn't go far... Is the preamp only required for level control (basically a potentiometer) or amplification as well? I find it a bit hard to justify the price on some preamps and I already have a stand alone dac...

[Finleyville]

I am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in and correct any errors I may give....

In the most basic sense, a preamp is used as a volume control. Now, while I just said that, the preamp can do much more.

Power amps need a minimum input signal level to reach their full potential. Since every amp is a little (sometimes a lot) different from each other then this minimum level value is also different. Some amps can be driven to full loudness with just an iPod hooked up to its inputs. Some can be used directly from a CDP with a volume control built in. Some need a little more juice. This is where a preamp comes in. The pre will take your source input signal and slightly amplify it so any amp can be driven to its maximum.

Now just because an amplifier CAN be driven directly from your source doesn't mean it will sound its best doing that. Not only does a preamp boost your source signal, but some also buffer the incoming signal as well. Plus almost all preamps have more than one input. That way you are not constantly switching RCA cords into your amplifier between all of your sources. (duh) Plus preamps, just like amplifiers, all have different design topologies inside that can/will change the final output sound.

There is a growing trend of passive preamps out there. These are basically straight volume controls and a source switcher with NO signal amplification inside. Those users with high output sources and/or amplifiers with a low input impedance only need an attenuator for volume control.


As far as the size of your amplifier that you should choose with the Finalists I will say that Jim's recommendation of a minimum of 115w/ch is a good one. With this design I have found that you can hear a positive difference with a larger amplifier. However, if you had to choose between an Adcom GFA-555 (200W/ch) or a Classe CA-100 (100w/ch) I would definitely choose the much better designed and higher quality, lower power Classe amp.

[Avalanche]

Thank you for clarifying things, Finleyville. I come from the HP world where things are simpler (plus you get very close to the top with $800). How will the Stealth DC-1 -> UPA-200 match with the Finalists?

[Finleyville]

Do you already own those two pieces? Do you mind buying used gear to save some money to receive higher quality equipment?

I see that the Stealth DC-1 is a Pre/DAC combo. How many source components do you plan on using? Do most of them have a digital out? I see only 1 pair of standard RCA inputs on that piece.

I only have heard an Emotiva XPA-200 once and not a UPA-200. Almost all of the interwebz scuttlebutt on the Emotiva line is that either they love their equipment or that it is too harsh and bright sounding. No one has accused Emotiva of designing a neutral or warm sounding amp. I was seriously considering an Emotiva myself until I realized I could spend a little more and find some nice used equipment.

Those two blokes designed a great set of loudspeakers. I know that this is my first set of speakers that I will be able to hear the differences between equipment. That is why I drove myself nuts for one month or more trying to match the highest quality pre and amp to my budget. This Wednesday when I get to hook everything up to my Finalists I will find out if all my hard work is well deserved.


BTW.... I see an Aragon 4004 on eBay right now for only $450 shipped. If Mr. Marsh deems that line worthy than it is!

[Avalanche]

I don't have those pieces and I don't mind buying used gear. I only plan to play from digital streamer (usb).
I couldn't find the Aragon 4004. I was interested in the Emotiva since Holtz wrote they are good value...

[Finleyville]

Oops...I meant the Aragon 2004. 100W/ch @ 8ohms and 200W/ch @ 4ohms. If it is good enough for Mr. Marsh then it is good enough for me!

[Avalanche]

Hi guys.
I have most of the parts and started working on the crossovers. Where should I place them in the cabinet? I have the Meniscus kit and assembled them on separate boards. How should the midrange in its port be wired to the crossover (shall I drill the pvc tube)? I know these questions are simple but I'm new to the trade.

[Finleyville]

No prob. We all were there at one time or another.

Most people place the the crossovers on the bottom of the enclosure. Some the sides.

Yes. You need to drill a single hole in the mid tube to fish your internal hook up wire to the mid driver like I did below. Then you use some silicone sealant or RTV to seal the hole after you fish the with through.

[Avalanche]

Thanks Michael.
Another issue: I see it wasn't documented clearly, only that it should be "fine tuned". Should I stuff the entire cabinet with foam or as the kit arrived with only 1" around the mid tunnel and 2" on the walls of the woofer chamber?

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Michael.
Another issue: I see it wasn't documented clearly, only that it should be "fine tuned". Should I stuff the entire cabinet with foam or as the kit arrived with only 1" around the mid tunnel and 2" on the walls of the woofer chamber?

Michael's response was right on. :T

The mid tunnel gets the 1" foam and the 2" is for the woofer chamber. Hold back from the inside of the front baffle about 1 1/2" - 2" for the foam in the woofer cavity. The mid tunnel can be to taste and room. I found in my room that I preferred to have the foam cut to 6 1/2" and beveled on the driver end with the foam flushed with the back of the cabinet. So, there's only foam in the back 1/2 of the mid tunnel.

HTH

Jim

[Finleyville]

Hold back from the inside of the front baffle about 1 1/2" - 2" for the foam in the woofer cavity

Could you please word this sentence in a different way so I can understand better?

I ended up foaming the whole lower woofer enclosure, every side. I cut the foam just a little proud on all sides. So when I stuffed the area the foam "smushes" against itself, and I do not need to use glue to have the pieces stay in place.

This picture is a shot of me test fitting the foam with the enclosure on its one side with the other side still needing to be attached.



This is a picture of the glued up enclosure after I stuffed the foam in the woofer cutout hole.

[Finleyville]

The mid tunnel can be to taste and room. I found in my room that I preferred to have the foam cut to 6 1/2" and beveled on the driver end with the foam flushed with the back of the cabinet. So, there's only foam in the back 1/2 of the mid tunnel.

That is what makes this hobby so much DIY fun!

In the current house where my speakers currently reside, they sound best with the mid tunnel 1" foam totally removed and instead stuffed with acousticfil. (1/2 lb I think?) However, when I get to actually bring them home I will play with the foam and fill so they sound best in my area.

[Avalanche]

These connectors came with the kit. Which is the preferable method? You can see in the photo I already punched a hole and screwed the switch...

[Jim Holtz]

That is what makes this hobby so much DIY fun!

In the current house where my speakers currently reside, they sound best with the mid tunnel 1" foam totally removed and instead stuffed with acousticfil. (1/2 lb I think?) However, when I get to actually bring them home I will play with the foam and fill so they sound best in my area.

Hi Michael,

If it was me, I'd trim the foam back a bit from the driver. Too much of any kind of damping material tends to suck the life out of bass, IMHO. I like to keep it away from the driver but still keep sound waves from bouncing back into the driver.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

These connectors came with the kit. Which is the preferable method? You can see in the photo I already punched a hole and screwed the switch...

You're plate looks very good to me. I have a different plate but did it exactly as you have. It works really well.

Jim

[Finleyville]

Plus you have the option of bi-wiring them in the future. In fact, it may make the connections to the x-over a little easier. You can wire the lower posts just to the woofer circuit and the top to the switch topology. If I ever have my amp modified to bi-amp I will do just this.

[Finleyville]

Hi Michael,

If it was me, I'd trim the foam back a bit from the driver. Too much of any kind of damping material tends to suck the life out of bass, IMHO. I like to keep it away from the driver but still keep sound waves from bouncing back into the driver.

I may have to try that. When I had the foam in the mid tunnel I positioned it with the chamfered side toward the driver and the back end of the foam flush with the rear of the tunnel. The mids still sounded "a bit" restricted. That is why we went with the polyfil solution. When I get these back I will try with the foam again. If it still sounds restricted then I will try trimming the rear part of the foam first.

[Avalanche]

I got the boards from the carpenter. Will it be OK to use screw? It sounds easier to drill holes the use screws to fasten the boards after applying glue on the sides.
As you can see in the pics the holes inside aren't perfect circles as he used a jigsaw to cut them and rotor only for the holes on the face of the panel. There's still a gap remaining between the driver and the circle as you can see, which leaves little area for the gasket to seal (that's even after I changed the original diagram for tighter...).
Does the tweeter hole needs bevel? I used two 3/4" mdf boards for the front. Will it create problems with tunnelling or sharp bevelling will suffice?
The boards don't match perfectly so I fear it won't be perfect tight seal when I assemble them... this is harder than I thought.

[Avalanche]

The MDF is pretty soft and crumbles easily. It already has some blemishes just from checking how the drivers fit. Maybe it should be treated around the area where it'll hold the driver?
Will 4 X #8 screws will be enough on top and bottom and 8 on front and back?
By the way, the back panel also has a recess around the port and I'm not sure why that is needed...

More photos:

[Jim Holtz]

OK, here are my opinions. I would not use screws if you can avoid it. A clamped glued joint is much stronger and seals. You can also use latex/silicone caulk inside on the seams if there are gaps. The panels need to be fitted so they match and mate up properly if you want to end up with a cabinet that can have some type of finish applied to it. The mid and woofer cutouts definitely need to be beveled or rounded over on the inside of the baffle to eliminate any chance of tunneling.

Honestly, if it were me and I'd paid for the work, I'd take it all back and tell them to either re-cut it properly or make the existing panels fit so you have a cabinet that can be finished when you're done.

One other thought. The recesses for the tweeters are too deep. They can be built up with foam window/door insulation available from a home store to bring the drivers level with the cabinet surface. A little bit of recess isn't a big deal but not that much.

Jim

[Avalanche]

OK, I'll glue it together. I see it fits almost 100% when clamped. The only panel which doesn't is 1mm longer is the upper and lower panels which protrude to the back.
1. Will it be alright to sand it after the cabinet is done?
2. Will it be alright to glue everything but the back panel in one go, including gluing with silicon the mid tube? I see no harm in sealing the edges in silicone as well just to be sure.
3. Will 3 clamps to hold together the side panels suffice?
4. Now this is something I missed when I took the measurements of the drivers before I ordered the cuts. The gasket in the woofer won't cover more than 2mm when seated against the recess (see photo, woofer on right). Will the recess need treatment for better sealing?

Thanks for the feedback Jim.

[impala454]

It looks as though the tweeter holes were cut way too big. Jim was referring to the depth of the recess. The actual diameter of the hole also looks way too big. Your red arrow in the tweeter above is the flange which is already accounted for in your measurements (assuming you measured all the way across the speaker, including the flanges. If it's not up to the measurements I'd definitely get them to redo it.

[Jim Holtz]

Sure, sanding the edges flush is part of the building process for me anyway. I'm not a cabinet building authority for sure. :-)

I think it'll be very hard to glue the cabinet in one shot and you'd definitely need more than 3 clamps. The silicone isn't for the edges. It's for the seams inside the cabinet after is glued up to seal it if necessary. I think 2mm will be ok if you have enough cabinet to let the screws attach securely.

Good luck!

Jim

[Avalanche]

EDIT: I should have taken more careful measurements. Looks like the driver holes are too big and will have to be redone. Should I redo the inner panel of the baffle or can it stay bigger, what will leave a step?

It looks as though the tweeter holes were cut way too big. Jim was referring to the depth of the recess. The actual diameter of the hole also looks way too big. Your red arrow in the tweeter above is the flange which is already accounted for in your measurements (assuming you measured all the way across the speaker, including the flanges. If it's not up to the measurements I'd definitely get them to redo it.

Will it be detrimental acoustically if it's 0.1" wider in diameter?
I changed the original Finalist cabinet diagram to smaller holes after I saw the drivers were smaller... I don't understand why they were that big in the original diagram.
Should I redo the inside panel of the front baffle as well if I'll redo the outside one with the roughly 0.1-0.2" smaller holes?

I think it'll be very hard to glue the cabinet in one shot and you'd definitely need more than 3 clamps. The silicone isn't for the edges. It's for the seams inside the cabinet after is glued up to seal it if necessary. I think 2mm will be ok if you have enough cabinet to let the screws attach securely.

The driver recess cuts aren't very smooth. Shall I glue or treat them somehow for better seal?

[impala454]

I don't believe the gap would affect the sound (Jim please correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure there's still enough width to drill your screw holes to attach the driver.

[Avalanche]

I goolged this:

Be sure to flush mount all of the drivers. Not doing so will cause small spikes in the frequency response produced directly in front of the speaker. For that matter, any protrusions on the surface of the speaker box can produce these spikes in frequency response.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/FAQ/Build/

It looks more or less flush but it doesn't say anything about how tight the circle should be.

EDIT: OK I ordered a new front panel.