New Home for the BG Ribbons - Part 27

[Dennis H]

I think Danny Richie also said the HF peak goes away when you put them in an array so your measurements are consistent with his, Chuck. That sorta leads to the obvious question, do you really need the Neo3s? What does your ear tell you?

[JonMarsh]

The 8's are not so hot off axis horizontally in the last octave- I guess it's a matter of what you're willing to live with, and how high your hearing goes. For some it may be fine.

[chasw98]

Crossong out at 4K even my poor old tired ears could hear the 'sparkle' come out when using the Neo3's. They do make a difference! I could hear the 'sheen' of a cymbal splash with the 3's. I have tried running just the 8's with no upper limit and the 3's are worth having.

[JonMarsh]

Not surprised to hear that- I've never been a fan of running the Neo8 as a full top end device. I understand it might seem convenient within the context of a low cost line array and keeping the complexity down- but not really reference grade for a full range system.

Today is Minneapolis, last day out on the road this week!

[chasw98]

Today is Minneapolis, last day out on the road this week!

Tonight is Longmont, first day out!

Time grows short but I know ET has been busy at the home base getting things ready for next week.

[Hank]

not really reference grade for a full range system

Crap! :x You're telling me I can't just do woofs and RD's. Any other solution for the "sheen" octave so I can avoid a line of Neo3's?

[chasw98]

Crap! :x You're telling me I can't just do woofs and RD's. Any other solution for the "sheen" octave so I can avoid a line of Neo3's?

Hank:
I am in my 50's and was wondering whether I would hear them also and whether they (the Neo3's) would make a difference. I have a history of abusing my ears in the pro sound business in my younger days and I can tell that I do not hear as well as I used to. But I can definitely hear the Neo3's and the effect they add to the overall presentation. I might not hear that 18 Khz overtone, but I can tell it is there! :T

Now if you were going to come to RMAF, you could probably make that decision for your self, but no, you have to stay in Texas and work....... :rofl:

We will miss you!

[JonMarsh]

Maybe we should arrange an intervention or "rendition" as the CIA would call it- clearly you know what's in Hank's best interests, even if he doesn't.
We could arrange to send in a not so covert action team this weeked...
I'm sure a flying DeLorean would catch him off guard, and allow for a smooth extraction. :W. He'd just think he'd had a bit too much Tequila and the whole thing was a dream, until he woke up in Denver.

[chasw98]

Maybe we should arrange an intervention or "rendition" as the CIA would call it- clearly you know what's in Hank's best interests, even if he doesn't.

I could have had the corporate Gulfstream pull over in Texas and grab him yesterday but too late now. :roll:

Sorry Hank :T

[PhilDSP]

Crap! :x You're telling me I can't just do woofs and RD's. Any other solution for the "sheen" octave so I can avoid a line of Neo3's?

In my experience it doesn't work too badly at all to have just a single high quality ribbon tweeter alongside the RD. But the baffle is full width and full length just as if I were mounting an array of tweeters. You still get a pretty huge image (probably because of the baffle supporting the back wave for 2 meters in height)

But you do have a very limited vertical listening spot with a single ribbon tweeter, which may be okay if you always listen in a seated position. But of course some of us are looking to build the absolute, ultimate system and want the full array as soon as we can afford it 8)

[Cyan]

Not sure it's the right place to ask.
But what drivers do you think the neo8 compares too?
Can it stand up to seas magnesium, accuton, audiotechnology, etc.? Ofc i only mean as pure midrange duty.
It's also kinda cheap.

[ThomasW]

One can't compare cone mids to planar mids, it's way too much an apples vs oranges comparison..

[Jonasz]

Thomas, can you try and elaborate a little on the differences subjectively? I'm using Seas W22 as mids up to 1500hz so I'm familiar with how they sound, but it would be interesting to know how different you experience a planar mid.

[Hank]

I'm in the midst of corporate manuevering over technology platform for next year's pico projector lineup :conveyer: and would have greatly appreciated an "extraction"! I'm bummed to think that my acquired mid-woofs and to-be acquired RD's (probably 50's) now MUST have an accompanying third line of Neo3's. 3-way just gets complex mussing with the music, as well as extra cost. I could live with a couple of longer dimension planar tweets. I definitely do not do serious listening standing up.
I'm gonna have a tequila therapy to get over my disappointment before Dixieland band rehearsal tonight... :cry: 8x)

[brianpowers27]

Not sure it's the right place to ask.
But what drivers do you think the neo8 compares too?
Can it stand up to seas magnesium, accuton, audiotechnology, etc.? Ofc i only mean as pure midrange duty.
It's also kinda cheap.

It is a tough driver to work with. If you are going active, you can hammer the response into something workable. The CSD/Waterfall plots tell the story. The driver is lighweight and consequentially low distortion. I am sure that this has less overall displacement than many 5" midranges. Due to the dispalcement factor the mid needs to crossed around 700lr2. Many 5" mids cross well around 300-450hz.

It really does sound nice to my ears and that makes it worth the effort.

[Johnloudb]

I'm in the midst of corporate manuevering over technology platform for next year's pico projector lineup :conveyer: and would have greatly appreciated an "extraction"! I'm bummed to think that my acquired mid-woofs and to-be acquired RD's (probably 50's) now MUST have an accompanying third line of Neo3's. 3-way just gets complex mussing with the music, as well as extra cost. I could live with a couple of longer dimension planar tweets. I definitely do not do serious listening standing up.
I'm gonna have a tequila therapy to get over my disappointment before Dixieland band rehearsal tonight... :cry: 8x)

I don't need no stinking tweeter. Maybe this review with cheer you up? RD50 mid and No Tweeter!

B-G Radia 520i

I don't think it's a big issue, as Thomas has mentioned the off axis response is not so great above 5000Hz. So, when listening on axis it shouldn't be too much of as issue. My understand is that is has a somewhat soft high end, which will be perfect for our room acoustics and most of the music I listen too. So, I hope anyway. And you don't have that crossover in the high frequencies to deal with as well. Maybe a more coherent sound ... but less "sparkle."

[Hank]

Thanks John, I needed that. Interesting that he didn't have even a hint of disappointment in the top end. Maybe he has "old ears" too? I suppose I could live with a super tweet at the top of the RD, perhaps tilted down just a skosh, just in case there are any kids or dogs in the room that need to hear 18 - 20 kHz

[ThomasW]

I found the Radias' sweet spot in my room to be about 6" wide and 12" deep.

.....

[savage25xtreme]

.....

beam much?

[Johnloudb]

.....

Thomas, quit trying cause trouble! :M Most reviews of speakers I've read in stereophile have a sweet spot like the $10,000 Vandersteen, Quattro Wood. My R44s were supposed to have lobing when listening off axis. And I can't say I've noticed any problem ... no more than any other speaker I've owned, be it my Thiels or Nelson Reed speakers. Move the speaker a half inch or an inch and get a whole different sound. Changing my listen position usually changes the sound quite a bit, just due to room acoustics or other factors.

Well, if it's really that bad, I may add several Neo Tweets and a passive, First Order, crossover to at 6kHz. Hope that's fast enough, if not second order. But, I'm doing a two way first.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks John, I needed that. Interesting that he didn't have even a hint of disappointment in the top end. Maybe he has "old ears" too? I suppose I could live with a super tweet at the top of the RD, perhaps tilted down just a skosh, just in case there are any kids or dogs in the room that need to hear 18 - 20 kHz

Dog's or "old dogs"? :W

Trouble is, the cavity resonance is at ~5 kHz, and it's above there that they really narrow down. I can hear six or nine kHz pretty well- even 16 kHz is no problem. An easy way to test is play pink noise through them and listen or measure on axis and move slowly off axis.

Thing is, it affects the room reverberant power response, too. That's why I went to such lengths in the design of the NeoD- very wide horizontal and vertical listening zones.

It doesn't mean you couldn't be happy with them as they are, but...

[Johnloudb]

Jon,

How many tweets do think would be adequate? I can't afford a full line array of tweets now and I'm going to build this as a two way first, see how that sounds. But, I might add some neo3 tweeters after that. Be interesting to see what difference they make.

I guess to make it work sensitivity wise with the RD50 I'd need to use one or 4 or more.

[Dennis H]

A bit OT but I've been following John Murphy's line array project -- corner-loaded floor-to-ceiling Dayton ND90 (looks like an OEM of the old Aurasound that tested so well for Zaph.) He's using them full-range (40-20K) with EQ but you could always add bigger woofers and a line of tweeters if you wanted.

http://www.trueaudio.com/array/index.htm

[fjhuerta]

It is a tough driver to work with. If you are going active, you can hammer the response into something workable. The CSD/Waterfall plots tell the story. The driver is lighweight and consequentially low distortion. I am sure that this has less overall displacement than many 5" midranges. Due to the dispalcement factor the mid needs to crossed around 700lr2. Many 5" mids cross well around 300-450hz.

It really does sound nice to my ears and that makes it worth the effort.

Ain't it the truth.. it took me close to a year to finish the design of my Neo3/Neo8/Seas P21 speaker... the Neo8 is an extraodinary driver, but it needs very careful vocing, IMHO. And yes, mating it to a Neo3 makes all the difference in the upper end.

[chasw98]

Ain't it the truth.. it took me close to a year to finish the design of my Neo3/Neo8/Seas P21 speaker... the Neo8 is an extraodinary driver, but it needs very careful vocing, IMHO. And yes, mating it to a Neo3 makes all the difference in the upper end.

Yes, Javier. I agree with you and Brian! I am about 9 or 10 months into my Peerless/Neo8/Neo3 array and I have ended up settling in on an active LR4 at ~700 Hz for the woof to mid crossing point. I tried to go for something in the 300 to 400 range and could never get it to sound 'good'. As soon as I tried it up higher and did some measurements and listening I was sold on the higher crossover point. I am still working on it but the end is in sight.

[Hank]

Still agonizing here about tweets to add to my Peerless 830875 HDS mid-woofs and future RD 50's (probably) or RD75's (perhaps). Next Spring I need to make a decision and start cutting...

[Johnloudb]

Hank, I have started and then stalled on this project. It's cold out! So I got to bring the stuff in to laminate another layer of wood to the woofer section, indoors, and then cut holes. Here's what I've got so far (below). I've also laminated some boards together for the base. I will probably add some tweeters eventually. I think Thomas and John probably know something I don't - go figure.

First I'm going to try a two way, and then I will probably add tweeters to the outside edge of the speaker. I have some ideas but not sure exactly how that will go. How many depends on money. It will be a passive crossover between the tweeters and midrange, and active between the midrange/tweet and woofers.

Image not available

[Hank]

Hang in there, John. Mark, "The Kid" has volunteered to help me with active xover design for the mid-woof/RD transition. Tweets/super tweets remain a consternation.

[chasw98]

Hang in there, John. Mark, "The Kid" has volunteered to help me with active xover design for the mid-woof/RD transition. Tweets/super tweets remain a consternation.

Hank, it's too bad you weren't sitting in the chair next to me with a slight cool breeze coming off the Atlantic Ocean as I listened to some new 24/96 material on a set of Peerless/Neo8/Neo3 arrays being driven by a full set of Pass amplifiers! And mostly in Class A at that with full active crossover. There would be no question that you would want the high end Neo 3 tweeters. Even with our 'old dog' ears thay add a wonderful touch to the overall presentation.

[ThomasW]

Hank,

You'll want the Neo3's and you'll be able to afford them with the money you save buying the Neo8's instead of the RD series planars

[PhilDSP]

Ah okay, the 26W/12867T has an aluminum cone - very nice! It sounds quite similar to the 26W/8765-SE I'm using except for the low impedance which makes it especially suitable for wiring a pair in parallel which I'd guess you'll be doing.

[Amphiprion]

Hang in there, John. Mark, "The Kid" has volunteered to help me with active xover design for the mid-woof/RD transition. Tweets/super tweets remain a consternation.

Since starting the new job I've got Altium installed on my home machine. I have it working so I can access the Altium floating license server at work over our VPN. Basically this means I now have the premier professional PCB CAD tool available to me for hobby projects, instead of just EAGLE, which proved insufficient for large project management. I'm already getting started on an active digital loudspeaker crossover aka "the last crossover you'll ever buy". Just pop in a $1.50 flash EEPROM with new program coefficients into the board, and you have a fully active digital crossover for any new set of speakers (up to 4 way stereo). I might also make it programmable via Windows software and a USB cable, but I've got to play around more with the DSP I plan on using before I work on that. Right now I've just been laying the groundwork for it with the CS42528 CODEC from Cirrus Logic and playing around with Analog Devices' SigmaStudio DSP program seeing if the AD1940/1941 will fulfill my requirements. I am trying to keep it as simple as possible, but it seems to be wanting to turn into a full blown preamp + crossover at every turn, what with 8 digital inputs, a stereo analog input, extra I2S inputs for external ADC's, internal digital volume controls, the whole works. I'm suffering from foreseeable feature creep.

Altium used to sell for 14K for a single seat permanent license; since the economic downturn, they have switched to a 4K initial + 2k annual renewal model to help people buy in. It's nice having it at home for free.

ETA: this project is going to be in place of the TAS5518/TAS5261 system I was working on in EAGLE. I had trouble managing a project of that size in eagle and the layout tool just wasn't up to snuff. This Altium, although a little buggy since it's still fairly new, is uber powerful and is like using a scalpel instead of a machete when it comes to PCB layout/design. And managing large schematic projects is a breeze with the editing functions. So hopefully I won't get mired down like I did with my last big project attempt in Eagle. Also, TI seems to be coming out with newer and better power stages which would have made the old design obsolete.

[Hank]

Thomas, you're all over me - seems I may end up with a 3-way if I listen to your siren song. :banghead: 40+ years of speakers and I've avoided 3-ways.
I am just...so...disappointed. How many 3's?
There's only one bright side to this, and that's my boy Mark's impending active crossover solution :T
I'm trying to recover from pneumonia and Big T tells me I have to do a 3-way. Oh, woe is me...I'm taking down that bottle of 12-year-old Irish medicine :drinker:

BTW, Happy New Year, guys!! ;b> :banana:

[JonMarsh]

I'm trying to recover from pneumonia and Big T tells me I have to do a 3-way. Oh, woe is me...I'm taking down that bottle of 12-year-old Irish medicine :drinker:

Always trying Hank is...

It is doing you must!

A good New Year you must have!

[Hank]

Yes, I must. Next Christmas season will be carefree, after going through this one: sister in ICU for 3 weeks with pneumonia, just got transferred to intermediate care, me with pneumonia for a couple weeks and now my 94 year-old aunt in the hospital with pneumonia and a fractured hip. Being a guardian takes lots of time and patience.

[Dennis H]

Thomas, you're all over me - seems I may end up with a 3-way if I listen to your siren song. :banghead: 40+ years of speakers and I've avoided 3-ways.
I am just...so...disappointed. How many 3's?

Hank, assuming you haven't already spent a lot of money on drivers, it seems like you can still do a 2-way + sub. Start from the top down with a line of Neo3s. Add a line of small cones that will play high enough to cross to the Neo3s and low enough to cross to the subs. Of course, if you already own some $pendy RD-series drivers, Houston we have a problem.

[Johnloudb]

If I remember correctly he bought a bunch of the same Peerless 6.5" drivers that Chuck used in his line array. But, I'm sure Hank will get something going ... EVENTUALLY! ... like I should talk. Maybe Mark will kick him in the rear. Yeah, I know, you shouldn't kick a man when he's down.

Really sorry to hear about your troubles Hank. Hope things start turning around really quick for you and your family!

Hey y'all ... Happy New Year!!!! :banana: ;b> :banana:

[SpeakerGuy]

So - anybody made progress on their 830875 projects? No updates to this thread for some time now... Hope things have gone well?

[Hank]

I'm hoping John and Chuck will chime in with pics of completed speakers.
Blasphemy: I just read a very interesting review of the new Magneplanar 1.7's and really want to audition them ops:

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, the 1.7's have gotten some VERY nice write ups- probably the most significant thing Jim has done in the last 5-6 years. A person could do a lot worse than to couple a set of these with a dipole woofer line array below 50 or so.

[ThomasW]

Chuck's are fully operational. I don't think he's done the finish work on the baffles to make them 'pretty'

A person could do a lot worse than to couple a set of these with a dipole woofer line array below 50 or so.

The stock Maggie 1.7 is 19" wide. Adding on a line of midwoofers and the speakers are quickly approaching 30" wide.

[JonMarsh]

And your point is? I wouldn't be recommending a line of mid woofers, bit rather a dipole line array woofer/subwoofer so that the room radiation and throw would match up- same fall off rate with distance.

Of course, in a small room you probably won't need anything extra, and fall off with distance wouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't add a mid woofer array to them probably under any circumstances.

[Hank]

I thought you two would smack me down for bringing up the Maggies on this DIY forum. :W
As Jon hinted, they would not need augmentation in the mid-woof range, so no need for a line of mid-woofs. I'm thinking maybe a couple of H-frame servo subs. The 1.7 review I read really makes me want to audition them. They are supposedly Magneplanar's first speaker wherein all driving elements are planar transducers - not a hybrid.

[Johnloudb]

I don't blame you Hank, if I hadn't already jumped into this project I might follow your foot steps.

Here's what I got so far. The thin board is just there for support. I plan on cutting the holes ASAP, then doing the round over work, and putting on the walnut veneer. I made a few errors I need to cover up.

I'm new to real wood working for the most part, and haven't done much, and never used a rooter before. My sound sensitivity issues slow me down as well. Then the weather hasn't helped much. Excuses, excuses, .....

[Hank]

Hang in there John - at least you've got baffles in the works. I am the excuse king here.