Need advice on tweaking bass in finalist speakers

[S3TH]

I recently built my first pair of diy speakers, Jim and Curt's Finalists Mids and highs seem great (to an untrained novice ear), but after all the comments I've seen about the great low-end, I'm wondering if I might have messed up in the build, or it's something to do with my gear, room, placement, etc... I brought one speaker into my local audio shop and a really knowledgeable guy felt they were lacking in low end as well...so perhaps its something I can tweak on the speaker.

• Anything I should check as far as build mistakes that might diminish the bass?
• Crossover tweaks? Can be found here - http://speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_4.html
• My room is really small - I've found corner loading them definitely helps the bass some but hurts sound stage with how close they are to walls - but it's my best option so far. I'm sitting as far away as i can get at about 4 feet : /
• Could different woofers have any effect? If so are there any that swap easily with RS-225?
• For electronics I'm using an Adcom GFA-555 amp - 200watts per channel. Pre-amp I recently tried Adcom GTP-400 preamp (with the bass knob cranked or the Contour button pressed has a LOT more bass, but the mids and highs were a bit thin so I kept looking) other preamps don't have bass controls, or don't seem to improve bass enough.

Just trying to get an idea of options. I'm overall really happy with the speakers and appreciate the design work from Jim and Curt It's been a really fun project so far!

[---k---]

Bass should be more than sufficient if constructed properly. I believe that Jim is a bass head, but I'm not sure if he admits to that or not. Your front end gear should work well. So, something doesn't sound right.

It sounds like you've experimented with room placement. Keep trying that, because it can make a big difference in the subtle details. But, if you've tried them in the corners and other rooms or your local shop, that is likely not the issue.

I would definitely check your crossover. If you post good photos of the crossovers with all the wires on the top so we can see them clearly, I'm sure we can check them. You might also have a bad solder joint or something. I always just twist my crossovers together for testing and then after completely done do the final soldering. You may need to unsolder things and redo, but post the picture and then we can go from there. I'm curious about the Near/Far resistor and how you have this wired. Might be the first place I check.

I'd also check your stuffing/fill inside the speaker. Make sure that nothing is covering the port. Maybe you have too much fill right in front of the port?

If you play some bass heavy music can you feel air moving in and out of the port? Does the woofer cone even move?

You can't swap the woofers easily. And, it should be necessary. The RS225 is a great woofer and should be working for you.

Also, post your location. There may be someone local to you that can provide hands on help.

[Matt M]

More things to check:

* did you flip the polarity of the woofers somehow?
* do you have the right RS225 (i.e. "RS225-8" not "RS225-4" or "RS225S-8" or "RS225P-8"...)?

-Matt

[flamethrower1]

Just my 2 cents worth.
I had built a full set of Statement series for my listening pleasure, Mini Statements for fronts, Original Statement center and a set of the Monitors.
Great sounding gear and I was happy with them.
I have since built the New Statement II center and the Anthologys and like this set up better.
The RS225 move a little more air then the 180's do and I like the mids and treble better also.

Greg

[Jim Holtz]

Yes, Ryan, I am a bit of a bass head but only to the point of accurate bass. :W

1st of all, one 8" woofer will only move so much air. There ain't no replacement for displacement. However, the F/3 of the RS225 is in the low 30's so it does go quite deep. It won't pound your chest but it should sound well balanced and satisfying for most music.

The 1st thing I'd suggest you check is the crossover switch wiring. Incorrect wiring or incorrect usage of the switch in relationship to close wall placement will impact perceived bass since the switch rolls a resistor in line with the mids/tweeter lowers output and makes the bass more dominate. It will never be big and boomy however. I don't know what you were comparing it to at the audio store but many commercial speakers have a bit of "boom & sizzle" by design because they sound impressive in the store.

HTH

Jim

[S3TH]

Thank you all for the replies - attaching some pics but I'll need to get some better ones of the crossover. They were built by meniscus and look pretty good so I'd be a bit suprised if that was it. I will try to move the foam fill next - might be too close to the woofers. Both speakers sound the same so if I messed up, at least I'm consistent :P





Will pull out the crossover asap and get a better photo - took this during the build.













I tried running a DAC directly to my power amp today - there's a LOT more bass with that, but the mids / highs / soundstage isn't as great as preamp's I've tried. Perhaps my issue is somewhere in the preamp / DAC? Any recommendations around $1000 or less that might pair nicely with the finalists?

Thank you again for the great feedback - really appreciate it!

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the pictures. However, I can't see the switch from the front but I assume you have a 2 pole switch that either routes the mid/tweeter crossover through the resistor or bypasses it depending on the positioning and whether or not the mid tunnel is plugged for close wall use.

So, that brings the question. Can you hear a difference in volume from the mids when you flip the switch? In one position they should be louder (resistor bypassed) which would be for close wall mounting to keep up with the reinforced bass and when flipped to the other position the mids should have less volume which would route through the resistor for normal positioning.

I'm curious what the purpose of the bi-amp binding post plate is?

Everything else I can see looks very good. They should have excellent if not chest pounding bass.

Jim

[---k---]

I can't see how much if any foam you have around the window bracing. To get the deep bass from the port, you need good air movement from the woofer area up around the mid tunnel to the port. The gaps around the tunnel are small, so make sure nothing is stuffing it up.

I'm not sure I understand how Curt's near/far switch is working or supposed to be wired. So, I don't understand the binding post photos. I need to study the wiring diagram further.

I'm guessing Meniscus did your crossover right, but I thought I read a couple times on the internet that they had a mistake or something. I don't know if I'm remembering it right. But, they are human and can make mistakes late at night too. So, it is worth a little effort to double check.

I agree with above to check your polarities. Easy to screw up and not obvious. Everyone has done it.

It sounds like maybe the problem is your front end gear. Surprising as solidstate gear failures are unusual and since you tested them at a shop as well as home, I would have thought that would have ruled that out. If it were me, I'd probably use a old simple receiver (everyone has a couple of these stored somewhere, right?) or known working setup until the the speakers are known right. Then figure out what fancy DAC and stuff you want. Deal with one problem at a time. They should work fine on a cheap receiver. Fancy gear is final tuning to bring out subtitles and chase unicorns.

Start at the beginning and work through the steps:
1. Hook everything up to a known working receiver / amp. Test with another set of speakers.
1. Does the woofer cone move during play back? Gently touch the surround, can you feel it move? No --> check woofer wiring.
2. Cup your hand over a the port. Do you feel air moving into/out of the port? No ---> check stuffing around the port.
3. Check drivers polarities. Did you wire the midwoofer out of phase as shown on the wiring diagram? Check it again, because the +/- on the driver terminals are hard to see and easy to loose track of. While you're at it, check the woofer and then check the woofer and the mid a third time. Wiring this backwards will create a null at the woofer crossover point
4. Review the crossover diagram. Is everything wired correctly?
5. Review the crossover for bad solder joints or broken connections.

Also, note that the near/far switch will make a difference. So, try both ways.

[S3TH]

So the short of it is I think the bass capability of the speakers is great! It's all the other factors affecting it (room, electronics, etc)


Just for thoroughness here's what I checked and tried -

-Polarity was correct

-Foam wasn't blocking window brace holes - also tried with some of it removed and it didn't have much of an affect.

-I don't turn these up very loud but I can definitely feel the woofer moving when there's a heavy bass track with enough volume.

-Connections - I'm using quick disconnects for all connections to and from the crossovers - all were snug, but I tried soldering the woofer path anyway and it didn't seem to have an affect.

-Flipped the near-wall switch to lower the mid/tweeter volume and capped the mid tunnel - that does allow me to raise the woofer volume higher before mids and highs reach my preferred max.

-Positioning within my tiny room has a significant impact

Here's a quick 3D scale model of my room / speaker layout. Not great but they still sound fantastic in here in closed mid mode.



I'm looking into acoustic treatment for the room, or even better - move and get a bigger office

I'll also finish the exteriors soon.

Thanks for all the tips and advice everyone. You guys are great.

[Navy Guy]

Definitely check woofer polarity on each speaker. I've accidentally swapped one before and ended up with bass not like it should be. If you listen to each individually you might not hear a problem, but together it equals bass cancelation. You can check the wiring and also hook up a 9v battery to the terminals to check the direction of cone movement. They should both move the same direction.

[fatmarley]

Pull all the foam out.

[S3TH]

I picked up a Parasound Halo P5 - doesn't have any burn in time on it yet if that's a thing but WOW it brought the finalists to life! They sound incredible now! PLENTY of bass Thanks again for your help everyone!

[Jim Holtz]

I picked up a Parasound Halo P5 - doesn't have any burn in time on it yet if that's a thing but WOW it brought the finalists to life! They sound incredible now! PLENTY of bass Thanks again for your help everyone!

Excellent! :T

Jim

[fbov]

So the short of it is I think the bass capability of the speakers is great! It's all the other factors affecting it (room, electronics, etc)...

+1 to room size

Finalists have a midrange tunnel, promoting room placement from "important" to "critical" compared with sealed back designs. The need for distance to room boundaries has special meaning in such a small room.

More importantly, they are also 3-ways, which require more listener distance to properly integrate the woofer and midrange than other designs. The rule of thumb is multiple wavelengths at the XO frequency. Assuming it crosses near 350Hz, a 3.5 foot wavelength, the minimum listening distance is in the 6-8 foot range. That looks comparable to your room's size! A 2-way, crossing at 2.2kHz, will integrate in a foot, making it a far better choice for near-field listening.

I'm glad to see you understand it's not your build, but rather your application that's the root cause of these issues. Seeing your room, and for a gaming application, I'd have recommend a small (130mm-class) 2.1 system, probably MTMs because they play louder. Overnight Sensations fit this bill, as do several small subwoofer designs.

Get yourself a 12x15' or larger room, and you'll find out what the Finalists can do!

Have fun,
Frank