Interesting Drivers

[bvbellomo]

I'm struggling to see what's so good about Epique 220. Especially for 500$ (300$ sale) price. I guess we'll have to wait and see the measurements to see how it compares to 145$ Seas U22 or similar. I really can't make any fine judgement based on datasheet.

I am a big fan of Dayton, hate to bash someone trying to innovate, but if you have deep pockets, are looking for low distortion and low mechanical losses, are doing a 2-way crossing just north of 1kHz, or want a woofer for a tweet/mid/woofer/sub 4-way, the 8 inch should be considered. it just doesn't fit the other 99.9% of projects.

I can't see anything special about the 5.25.

I can't help comparing these to SB's (somewhat) new ceramic line. SB advertises as low or lower distortion numbers (but testing may show something different). As far as mechanical losses, SB's 8 is worse, but their 6 and 4 are better than Dayton's 5.25. Both lines are excellent products aimed at people looking for the same thing, and choosing between them would be hard without both in hand, except Dayton's are 3 times the price.

[5th element]

I'm struggling to see what's so good about Epique 220. Especially for 500$ (300$ sale) price. I guess we'll have to wait and see the measurements to see how it compares to 145$ Seas U22 or similar. I really can't make any fine judgement based on datasheet.

Those prices are a bit steep. $300 for a non-sale price on the 8", sure but otherwise it's a bit extravagant.

Trouble is Dayton have the RS225, in 4 and 8 ohm variants and with paper or aluminium cones. The 8" Epique is going to require a low crossover to mitigate beaming and to put whatever causes that big impedance blip, at 2.8kHz, out of band.

RS225s already have very low distortion and impressive bass capabilities, so why not pick one of those?

Dayton have now provided us with datasheets and I can't see any reason to use them period, HD isn't all that impressive.

[fish fingers]

I can see a case for these anchoring a high sensitivity design, with say an accuton mid

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[5th element]

I can see a case for these anchoring a high sensitivity design, with say an accuton mid

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Maybe? They aren't what I'd really call high sensitivity, they are slightly higher than the average. But for high sensitivity I'd want something like a DeltaliteII 10" from Eminence. They'll give you 95-96dB half space (8ohm).

Although I do appreciate what you are saying, these are what look like, at least, a solid 91dB. They are very expensive though, for just that tiny bit of extra sensitivity, and other drivers are probably more linear elsewhere. There's no reason why you should have to pay that extra for the sensitivity though. The only reason why other 8" drivers aren't is because the manufacturers have chosen to go with lower sensitivity as a way of providing deeper bass.

You could always buy the U22 from SEAS and whack on a bucking magnet. That'd push the sensitivity up by a couple of dB and cost you less. It's not exotic, nor is it sexy, but it's far more cost effective.

I would, however, like to see third party measurements of these, just to see how the HD looks when measured in a more revealing way and at different drive levels. So far I'm not seeing them do anything particularly special, except for having an underhung motor.

[fish fingers]

I see what you are saying.

These are def aimed at an aesthetic buyer, which I admit I am one, to an extent. This driver ticks quite a few of my boxes. I guess the qts can be modified in the crossover.

The issue for anyone outside the US tho is PE shipping and then the customs costs, kills it for me

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[5th element]

Oh it ticks many of my boxes too, although I'd need to see independent measurements before I'd take the plunge.

It's just a shame they are deciding to charge an arm and a leg. The only thing expensive about these is the underhung motor. These require more neo and more steel, but really nothing anywhere near the prices they are asking.

[fish fingers]

Oh it ticks many of my boxes too, although I'd need to see independent measurements before I'd take the plunge.

It's just a shame they are deciding to charge an arm and a leg. The only thing expensive about these is the underhung motor. These require more neo and more steel, but really nothing anywhere near the prices they are asking.

I think the 'sale' price is competitive but PE really needs their own hubs in europe and asia. By the time this is shipped to uk, we might as well buy accuton
If their products are made in asia, they shd at least have a PE hub there.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[5th element]

Yeah I think PE are missing a huge market, a central EU hub would be amazing.

And I agree again, the sale price is really where these should be priced. Then again I think that Accuton/SEAS Excel/Scanspeak etc all charge what they can, rather than what the products are worth. There's absolutely nothing about their products that need to cost what they do, yet people will buy them, so they charge. All the while SB Acoustics actually offer drivers with better linearity for far, far less money. I really wish SB would add more cone options to their Satori range.

[tktran]

So they want to join the big boys?
I'd like to see more measurements on this Epique range, but so far I haven't seen anything that favours them Scan-Speak, Accuton or Audio Technology unit.

As for pricing of these European built units, a local beer in Denmark costs some 45 DKK, which is about US$7.50
I can't imagine labour costs being cheap. Cost of materials alone doesn't determine the end retail pricing of products.

Imagine a driver Made In England? or Made in Australia? I don't see how we Australians could build anything that costs anything less than US$200 for a 4-8" driver.

In fact, if there was such a unit, I'd happily buy one to support my local economy.

[nopomo]

The manufacturer's HD measurements seem no better than those the Scan 22W, which is itself almost half the price of the SEAS mentioned above. Dayton's $110 underhung neo 22 cm midwoofer has exceptionally low HD, and higher sensitivity. The 22W, PM220, WF223, NE225W, and U22 cones all seem to attenuate their breakups better, but the Epique's impedance plot is almost perfectly smooth up to 2.7 kHz, and the off-axis dispersion looks to be very broad and uniform. It seems like they optimized it to be stiff on purpose, at the cost of increased HD3 amplification around 900 Hz, figuring that a peak of <-50 dB was an acceptable tradeoff for not having the cone flop around in the midrange. Dayton staff have commented on PETT about their choices for the RS and Esoteric lines, and I'm curious to see if they might have some insight to explain the apparent shortcomings of the new line. The thing that mystifies me is the aluminum shorting sleeve, but maybe there's a reason (besides material cost) that they used it instead of copper.

It looks like it would be a lot easier to implement in a passive 2-way when compared to the RS225, SB23CAC, W22EX, or even the S220-6-222 (from which its design may have drawn inspiration). On paper it seems altogether better than the Accuton, with a superior cone and Faraday shielding in the motor.

What remains to be seen is whether Dayton can keep the QC at a level commensurate with this pricing.

[Niels-Ole]

SEAS CA17RCY-H390 &quot;15 Ohm&quot; HELP ME

Hi Regarding SEAS CA17RCY-H390 "15 Ohm"
I have A BIG problem.
I have 8 Speakers from SEAS.
But when I look at Seas web page I can´t find the Speaker
I can find the Type of Speaker CA17RCY-H309 But in A 8 Ohm Version NOT in a 15 Ohm Version.
I have tried contacting SEAS but they don´t Know the 15 Ohm´s Version.


I am looking for the datasheet. on this speaker.

why I´M Looking for it is that I Have A pair of RAUNA NJORD Speakers.
and they have this speaker mounted in the box.

So if somebody Can help me I Would be A Happy Camper

[Bear]

Looking at the rust and the typography on the labels, is this from the 1970s or early 1980s? That label looks like it was typed. On a typewriter.

[Max Martin]

Hi Regarding SEAS CA17RCY-H390 "15 Ohm"
I have A BIG problem.
I have 8 Speakers from SEAS.
But when I look at Seas web page I can´t find the Speaker
I can find the Type of Speaker CA17RCY-H309 But in A 8 Ohm Version NOT in a 15 Ohm Version.
I have tried contacting SEAS but they don´t Know the 15 Ohm´s Version.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28272[/ATTACH]

I am looking for the datasheet. on this speaker.

why I´M Looking for it is that I Have A pair of RAUNA NJORD Speakers.
and they have this speaker mounted in the box.

So if somebody Can help me I Would be A Happy Camper

Manufactured week 15, 1984. Very strange Seas doesn’t know about this one.

[Face]

Manufactured week 15, 1984. Very strange Seas doesn’t know about this one.

Unless they were using an Apple IIe to store their driver database files, I wouldn't be surprised that they're gone. There's only so much on paper that can be kept...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Juhazi]

SEAS like many other manufacturers (oem) make small series of custom versions for (speaker) companys like Tandberg, Luxor, Amphion, Genelec and Gradient, obviously also Rauna. Looks like the data (paper documents or data files) from the era ot this specific driver are gone or just buried in the cellar...

https://vintagehifiproducts.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/rauna-of-sweden-the-story-continues/

[AJINFLA]

Speaking of which, Juhazi, I sent you a PM...

[AJINFLA]

Btw, new Satori coax coming http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php...atori-coaxial/
Bit of a puzzler, maybe specs will change.

[wolf_teeth]

I don't know that it looks all that bad in reality. 94dB for woofer -6dB for BSC yields the 88dB tweeter sensitivity. The rise in the lower treble is from the waveguide loading of the cone, but it's pretty (tilted) flat up to about 13kHz. Once you factor in the rising response of the midrange with the BSC, you're more like -10dB to flat, and then the tweeter will tilt down to flat as well. I think in situ that this unit might actually perform quite well. We know SB thinks through the driver design pretty thoroughly, and I doubt this is anything less than typical.

Later,
Wolf

[Jonasz]

This one looks interesting, Peerless DA25TX, corundum dome and 0.7 mm xmax.

https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da25tx00-08-1-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1676?utm_source=Retail&utm_medium=Email_Newsletter&utm_content=264-1676&utm_campaign=email051418

[AJINFLA]

I don't know that it looks all that bad in reality. 94dB for woofer -6dB for BSC yields the 88dB tweeter sensitivity.

Yep, exactly how to view it with a typical 2 way design where you want some bass extension...and the exact opposite of what you want with a coax

[5th element]

It's not the exact opposite of what you want in a coaxial driver, especially a big one. Arguably bigger is better as it provides a larger region of controlled directivity.

This is a game of balancing parameters though and something that isn't easy to do in a coax.

The tweeter, being a soft-dome, is naturally constrained sensitivity-wise. It's difficult to get something so small that will give you significantly better sensitivity without sacrificing its low end capabilities. Given the size of the mid-range cone it needs to be able to crossover below 2kHz without creating a fuss and for that you lose sensitivity points.

In an ideal world SB would scrap the 38.5mm Satori motor and go with something bigger to allow for a higher sensitivity, and better performing, tweeter. To really up the ante they'd need to integrate one of their dimple domes into the middle, the SB29RDCN, would be ideal, but this would require a significant reworking of the tweeter and the motor of the Satori. If done you'd get improved top octave tweeter performance and higher tweeter sensitivity. Then they could ditch the 5mm of woofer xmax and decrease it to 2mm, for even better midrange sensitivity. This would obviously be a pure midrange driver.

As it stands the Satori coax will work as a decent sensitivity driver that will work in a two way. This is not a bad proposal as most users don't do all out three ways.

Remember, if you use this in a three way and need to pad down the midrange, you're still going to benefit from reduced mid power compression. The driver won't see all the power, a resistor will soak some of it, but the coil will remain cooler.

I mean technically speaking what I want SB to do is release a 7.5" Satori coaxial using the metal cone from their NAC series and mate it with a small neo version of their ADC tweeter, with suitable designed phase shield to integrate well with the coaxial format. That and smaller versions of it too.

How would you like to see them change the specs of the driver?

[AJINFLA]

It's not the exact opposite of what you want in a coaxial driver

It most certainly is, as in what "I" would, having used many coaxes for over a decade, since anything below the baffle step is going to significantly increase the excursion of what is supposed to be the tweeter horn. There are measurements out there showing that effect on the tweeter. For a simple 2 way with some bass, these will work fine. For a 3 way where the horn isn't flailing about producing deep bass, there are better parameters. I would have thought for a Satori vs the regular SB line, they might have went the Seas Excel route. Guess not.

[AJINFLA]

Old topic of course

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?17418-Seas-Excel-Mag-vs-Seas-Excel-Nextel&p=220410&viewfull=1#post220410

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?17543-homegrown-Seas-coax

[Bear]

Speaking of SB Acoustics... They have a Beryllium version of the SB29RDNC coming out. The Fs is up (950 vs 680), but Sd and Xmax are the same as the soft version. I will be curious to see pricing and HD for this one. Given that it's not being branded under the Satori name, it would be amazing if it was under $300. But under $400 might be the best one can hope to see.

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/coming-soon/sb29bnc-c000-4/

[5th element]

You still haven't explained exactly what it is you dislike about the Satori coax and what specifications you'd change.

[5th element]

That's a nice product by the looks of things. Still no pricing on the standard Be dome, full sized, SB tweeter either. Considering that the ferrite Satori Be dome is less than $300, I'd expect this one to be quite a bit cheaper... less than $150 perhaps.

[wolf_teeth]

The full-sized SB Be non-Satori dome will be about $280. JeffB was commissioned a kit from SB/Meniscus, and that is the price he was quoted. Likely the kit will have a lesser costing tweeter just because of the price.

I don't remember if they had prices on them at AXPONA or not, but I have seen both versions in person, as well as the 2 new ceramic domes of the same variety.

Later,
Wolf

[5th element]

The full-sized SB Be non-Satori dome will be about $280. JeffB was commissioned a kit from SB/Meniscus, and that is the price he was quoted. Likely the kit will have a lesser costing tweeter just because of the price.

That doesn't make any sense, Madisound carry the ferrite Satori Be for $291. No one would buy the non-Satori dome for $280 if it was only $11 cheaper. Something isn't right here.

[AJINFLA]

You still haven't explained exactly what it is you dislike about the Satori coax and what specifications you'd change.

I'd make the graph easier to read
Upon 2nd inspection, maybe not much change. Definitely usable active. Passive might be tricky.

[cochinada]

That doesn't make any sense, Madisound carry the ferrite Satori Be for $291. No one would buy the non-Satori dome for $280 if it was only $11 cheaper. Something isn't right here.

What is the main difference between the two?

[Jonasz]

Big brother of the DA25TX, underhung 1mm xmax.

https://www.tymphany.com/peerless/driver-search-results/driver-detail/?id=1894

[Bear]

Big brother of the DA25TX, underhung 1mm xmax.

https://www.tymphany.com/peerless/dr...etail/?id=1894

132mm faceplate and ~70mm deep -- that's a big one. I like the fins, though. :-)

[Bear]

Madisound pricing for SB/Satori "twins":

SB29RDC: $51.40
SB29RDCN: $57.20 (+$5.80 for the change)

Satori TW29R: $121.50
Satori TW29RN: $147.50 (+$26 for the change)

Things get wacky in Beryllium land:
Satori TW29B: $291
Satori Tw29BN: $385 (+$94 for the change)

The Beryllium dome premium is $169.50 in ferrite, and $237.50 for neodymium. It would be great to get a Neo/Be tweeter for <$300, but the current pricing leaves me skeptical.

[5th element]

Yes but SB are releasing two Be domes NOT from the Satori range.

The standard domes are going to have to be significantly less expensive than the Satori Be domes otherwise no one would buy them. Apparently an actual Be dome costs around $15? From where and at what point in the supply chain this is at I don't know. Suffice it to say an aluminium dome is probably $0.1.

[Bear]

Yes but SB are releasing two Be domes NOT from the Satori range.

The standard domes are going to have to be significantly less expensive than the Satori Be domes otherwise no one would buy them. Apparently an actual Be dome costs around $15? From where and at what point in the supply chain this is at I don't know. Suffice it to say an aluminium dome is probably $0.1.

We'll know soon enough. ;-)

[5th element]

We'll know soon enough. ;-)

Indeed!

I just wish they'd use the motor from the ADC with the narrow surround. It's the best tweeter motor SB have come up with.

[PANDINUS]

Beryllium BlieSMa

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/BlieSMa_T34B-4.htm

[Zvu]

All i can say is wow... What are ScanSpeak, SBacoustics and Seas going to do now ? How they gonna eat ?

Stanislav Malikov (Bliesma) and Dmitriy Malinovskiy (Viawave) are changing the game... Big time.

[tktran]

Voice Coil just released the June issue, which measured the aluminium variant.

I usually find it hard to get excited about tweeters, but based on those mesaurments alone, the Be units will be in my shopping cart!

When do they ship?

[5th element]

Interesting how Troels' measurements don't show the second order distortion bump around 2kHz. Seems like they are the Be version of the tweeter he shows on his website too.

Makes me wonder what's different about the two as this is clearly NOT a dome thing.

[Bear]

On the other end of the price scale (and not Scandinavian, in the least), does anyone have knowledge or knowledgeable conjecture about what is causing the ragged frequency response in the "new" (late 2016?) RS270-4? Both the aluminum and paper versions look like they fall apart at 400Hz (396Hz according to the FRD files, lambda ~0.866m). Given that it appears in both the paper and aluminum versions, that would seem to rule out the cone (unless it's a beaming artifact??). Is it a measurement issue? The nearfield/farfield splice is at 450Hz, according to the PDF. The T/S parameters make this an interesting driver for small-ish boxes, but that frequency response gives me worries that it would require a 200Hz XO to avoid issues. It would be nice to find some HD sweeps in the wild to confirm what's going on.

By contrast, the RSS265HF-4 shows a similar, but more benign, pattern starting at ~500Hz.

295-382--dayton-audio-rs270-4-specifications.pdf

295-569--dayton-audio-rs270P-4a-specifications.pdf

295-460-dayton-audio-rss265hf-4-specifications-46172.pdf

[5th element]

The measurements that Dayton Audio publish don't always make sense and these measurements are a perfect example.

In the case of the metal cone drivers we're looking at drivers that are operating within their pistonic region and before any breakup occurs. By definition this means that cone resonances are out of the equation. When you measure metal cone drivers, near-field, you usually see a completely flat line up until they go crazy. Soft cones show the same thing too, but can exhibit smaller resonances before the main breakup occurs. Dayton's measurements show this, but for some reason things go sideways when the far-field measurements come in.

As the measurements show a very wiggly, peak-dip, snake-like nature, I'd imagine we're looking at some benign reflections that are causing some mild comb filtering over a broad band of frequencies. SEAS show a very mild effect, similar to this, in some of their measurements too.

It puzzles me why Dayton don't do something to get rid of these, both the metal and paper 10" drivers shows exactly the same thing. It's clear that Dayton's measurement conditions change with the day they are doing measurements because all the measurements of the 8" RS line are quite different.

[Juhazi]

I think that this z in response comes from the geometry of hard conical radiators. We can see this eg in Peerless NE series drivers' measurements very clearly. Rocking modes and flapping of membrane are not so sharp and easily calculated.

More of this subject, a poster by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel himself!

https://www.klippel.de/know-how/measurements/measurement-overview.html

[Bear]

The measurements that Dayton Audio publish don't always make sense and these measurements are a perfect example.

In the case of the metal cone drivers we're looking at drivers that are operating within their pistonic region and before any breakup occurs. By definition this means that cone resonances are out of the equation. When you measure metal cone drivers, near-field, you usually see a completely flat line up until they go crazy. Soft cones show the same thing too, but can exhibit smaller resonances before the main breakup occurs. Dayton's measurements show this, but for some reason things go sideways when the far-field measurements come in.

As the measurements show a very wiggly, peak-dip, snake-like nature, I'd imagine we're looking at some benign reflections that are causing some mild comb filtering over a broad band of frequencies. SEAS show a very mild effect, similar to this, in some of their measurements too.

It puzzles me why Dayton don't do something to get rid of these, both the metal and paper 10" drivers shows exactly the same thing. It's clear that Dayton's measurement conditions change with the day they are doing measurements because all the measurements of the 8" RS line are quite different.

Thanks! That seems pretty reasonable. It still doesn't give me the confidence to buy them, but it does give me hope that they may yet turn out to be 10" (closer to 11") equivalents of the RS225. Anyone with skill/knowledge want to measure a few? ;-)

[5th element]

I think that this z in response comes from the geometry of hard conical radiators. We can see this eg in Peerless NE series drivers' measurements very clearly. Rocking modes and flapping of membrane are not so sharp and easily calculated.

More of this subject, a poster by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel himself!


https://www.klippel.de/know-how/meas...-overview.html

We're too low in frequency for the wiggles to be the result of any of the drivers inherent geometry. Where they are coming from has to be external to the driver. These don't even start to beam until 1kHz (cone geometry).

The only internal place they could come from would be resonances. But as the cones are stiff, and the impedance plots completely free from artefacts, this is unlikely to be the case.