Interesting Drivers

[JonMarsh]

Slick design, well matching the driver capabilities to the system concept for a 2.5 way, with minimum parts. OTOH, they don't really tame the 7140 fully, and if I want to quibble, they haven't fixed the energy storage issues of the 8531 in the 800 Hz area, either, something that led me to abandon the revelators in the late 90's to try Eton (better cone, worse motor). Still, I bet this is a fun speaker... and it would take a lot more work to adapt it to Illuminators or RS180s... but might be interesting to do! I'd also be curious to see if it could be adapted to the Wavecor SW182BD02 in a sealed enclosure. I'm still curious to see distortion plots on that driver, but not curious enough right now to buy some! It does used the Balanced drive motor concept like the ones in the Wavecor Ardent, and those are very nice parts.

But then, I'd also have to evaluate if it would make more sense to use the 7140 or a Transducer labs tweeter- both have some significant HF resonant peaks but the TL tweeters have very low HD2 as well as very low HD3....

So many speaker concepts to explore, so little time... :W

[5th element]

That small resonance at 800Hz is typical of most soft cone drivers though and there isn't a lot you can do about it, at least not in this case. It's the same with the Satori and as much as I love the basics of that driver, I do wish that SB would release a metal cone into the range. Some of us do like to play with drivers that don't exhibit the typical cone edge resonance.

I am not quite sure I get what you mean about them not fully taming the tweeter? It looks pretty well controlled to me.

[JonMarsh]

With tweeters with that large an ultrasonic spike, I've found sometimes it benefits form a notch filter so that the dome system and VC isn't excited into high amplitude levels mechanically by the Q- this means keeping those frequencies out. A better solution, though, is a tweeter without the spike. Of course, if you only play 44.1 CD's and the player has a super solid image filter, and no ultrasonic output (many deliberately don't) then you're OK.

[5th element]

There's almost zero information up there from a musical point of view and no large diaphragm condenser mics can actually capture anything that high up either. I am sure some guitar pick-ups and some synthesizer type stuff might contains harmonics that extend that high. I would expect most mastering and initial recordings these days to be done at 96 and 192kHz, but almost all music is down mixed to 44.1k for CD. Obviously if that's happening all information beyond Nyquist is thrown away.

I do hear you about some higher rez stuff though, especially DSD stuff that inherently has a lot of ultrasonic noise in that it might be worth it for that. And I suppose you are the man Jon for hi rez stuff I do upsample everything to 192k myself, but that isn't going to magically create frequencies that aren't there.

[Jonasz]

The Prestige family needs a new coax too...

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=...ticle&id=480:h 1699-0806-mr18rexxf&catid=52&Itemid=464

[5th element]

That ones been out for a while, I just hope that the breakup of the mid doesn't turn into HD peaks. No mention of a shorting ring either, which is a shame because the driver sure costs a lot. One would expect copper in the gap for that price. SEAS really need to sort that out, all their prestige range needs shorting rings to keep up with the competition.

[JonMarsh]

There's almost zero information up there from a musical point of view and no large diaphragm condenser mics can actually capture anything that high up either. I am sure some guitar pick-ups and some synthesizer type stuff might contains harmonics that extend that high. I would expect most mastering and initial recordings these days to be done at 96 and 192kHz, but almost all music is down mixed to 44.1k for CD. Obviously if that's happening all information beyond Nyquist is thrown away.

I do hear you about some higher rez stuff though, especially DSD stuff that inherently has a lot of ultrasonic noise in that it might be worth it for that. And I suppose you are the man Jon for hi rez stuff I do upsample everything to 192k myself, but that isn't going to magically create frequencies that aren't there.

I hear you Matt, BUT, having used a number of tweeters with HF peaks like that and then refined or built new designs with parts WITHOUT peaks like that, the overall HF range presentation has always been cleaner and more natural and more like live music... while I recognize the value of thought discussions and theory, I tend to make a lot of design decisions moving forward based on experience and how it sounds...

That doesn't mean I can't be drawing the wrong conclusions and something else is the issue, but for now I have to go with what seems to work... and with hard dome tweeters, resonance amplification of distortion products is a fact of life- plus I think when you hit that resonant point with any energy, every thing else suffers.

Just my 0.02, you know?

[5th element]

I hear you Matt, BUT, having used a number of tweeters with HF peaks like that and then refined or built new designs with parts WITHOUT peaks like that, the overall HF range presentation has always been cleaner and more natural and more like live music... while I recognize the value of thought discussions and theory, I tend to make a lot of design decisions moving forward based on experience and how it sounds...

It is definitely interesting when you bring up soft domes, or more damped hard domes, ones that don't exhibit distortion amplification as the intermodular products, created as a result of the ultrasonic peak, have always been a concern of mine. None of the fundamental harmonics are audible because they lie outside the range of our hearing, but the intermodular products are another thing entirely. Obviously notching out the ultrasonic peak isn't going to do anything for these as it's the harmonic overtones that are creating the intermodular products and not the direct excitation itself.

That aside you are certainly not going to want to excite the resonance directly. This we will absolutely agree on and under whatever circumstances, be it a woofer or a mid, we would most certainly want to notch or filter out a resonance so that it's sufficiently out of the way. I think the only real issue is how much content is there that would otherwise excite a 30kHz resonance?

[5th element]

Measurements for the SB23 are now up on that Russian website.

http://www.audiogurman.com/3.htm#sb23nacs45-8

Of all the talk about the Klippel data on these a few months ago we can see that the low end distortion is still commendably low and that the coil offset described is perhaps not as destructive as the data might suggest? At least as I see it here both the HD2 and HD3 remain pretty similar in level throughout the bass. They look like they'd make for a nice bass driver in a three way, but better than the venerable (and less expensive) RS225? Maybe just by my measurements of the 225.

[Jonasz]

New Wavecor wg-tweeter.

http://www.wavecor.com/html/tw030wa11_12.html

[5th element]

Hmm interesting. It doesn't look like it does quite as good a job as the DXT though. I am basing this mainly on the fact that the DXT maintains the off axis response identically out to at least 15 degrees (ie its on axis is pretty much identical to the off axis) then falls off.

[Jonasz]

It also has copper in the motor wich their previous tweeters haven't had.

Anyway, I miss a factory made tweeter with a decent, say 20cm, waveguide made for really low crossovers.

[5th element]

Indeed, what's interesting is that I think I've seen a SEAS made DXT type tweeter with a larger overall diameter than the DXT. From what I remember it looked to be 5" in diameter, certainly nothing gigantic, but it'd be nice if they did release something like that to the DIY market. This was in some commercial product, so the tweeter could have been from anywhere, but it did look very SEAS like.

[Jonasz]

3rd party testing of some exotic Excel drivers... :P

http://www.lautsprecherbau.de/Magazine/Lautsprecherbau-Magazin-2014/September-2014/_Der-Excel-lente-Chassistest_8636,de,901179,10246

[5th element]

I am never usually a fan of representing distortion results on a scale like that as it completely squashes away low level % comparisons, also I would like to see the 4th and 5th harmonic.

That said the Be dome looks like the better of the two tweeters and the coax measures very nicely. It's just a shame that the Be tweeter couldn't have been made to look a bit nicer. The new Scan dome looks amazing by comparison.

[Jonasz]

A new SB Acoustics 19mm tweeter.

Link to specs: SB19ST-C000-4.pdf

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/tweeters/sb19st-c000-4/

[Jonasz]

Oh, and at last what we've all been waiting for... 8)

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/tweeters/satori-tw29r-b/

[5th element]

Ahh a black faceplate, at long last! Why this wasn't the first edition they made I don't know. Unless it was done specifically so that the tweeter would be recognisable in commercial products.

The 19mm tweet looks interesting too. Very smooth response and nice off axis curves. Kinda reminds me of the SEAS 22TFF, I think that's the part number.

[Jonasz]

Yes the all black looks desireable now, I want a pair!

[Evil Twin]

Yes the all black looks desireable now, I want a pair!

A man after my own heart...

[5th element]

I have to say the black version does looks really snappy. I didn't much like the two tone, two part construction look to the original Satori, but when in black, it gives a touch of distinction and modernism to the design.

[Jonasz]

And finally are the Satori 5" official.

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/midwoofers/5-satori-mw13p-4/

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/midwoofers/5-satori-mw13p-8/

[Jonasz]

A man after my own heart...

The all black Satori would look mean in a MTM with the new Dayton midwoofers (wich also look very "black" in pics). 8)

[5th element]

And finally are the Satori 5" official.

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/midwoofers/5-satori-mw13p-4/

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php...atori-mw13p-8/

Those look quite nice and it seems like they've shifted the resonance issue of the bigger brother up to 2kHz. I don't know if I prefer that or not. On the one hand you've got the issue out of the more fundamental range of the midrange, but now it's up around where I'd expect the crossover region to be, it could make xover design a little more tricky. Distortion should be very low though and I do like the fact that the sensitivity is up compared to most 5" drivers. 87dB for the 8 ohm version. Not amazingly high, but certainly higher than some of the competition.

The all black Satori would look mean in a MTM with the new Dayton midwoofers (wich also look very "black" in pics). 8)

That's exactly what I thought. Either with the stealth fighter RS series, or the new esoterics!

[JonMarsh]

It will be very interesting to see how the Esoteric 5-1/2" looks in comparison, once I find some time to test.

That's still looking about three weeks off, due to work taking over the next two weekend. I've got my fingers crossed that the Dayton measurements aren't overly smoothed, either the impedance or SPL.

[Face]

Those look quite nice and it seems like they've shifted the resonance issue of the bigger brother up to 2kHz.

1500hz.

I've heard from those who've used it's larger brother is that the resonance is benign and nothing to be concerned about other than it's appearance on paper.

[5th element]

1500hz.

Indeed you are correct, I read that line incorrectly! I am used to having major lines at 1k and 2k.

[wowo101]

That ones been out for a while, I just hope that the breakup of the mid doesn't turn into HD peaks.

There's some good news! Obviously, it doesn't – at least not as nasty ones as its Excel sibling C18's woofer exhibits. See these independent measurements of the SEAS MR18REX/XF:



The other measurements look virtually identical with SEAS's own and, apart from the missing HF resonance peak, with independent measurements of the C18's tweeter.

[5th element]

Thanks for that, just yesterday in fact, I stumbled across the website with those exact measurements. It certainly makes the prospect of using the MR18 a lot more attractive!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for sharing the link to that page- those are interesting results, and I expect they'll be whetting the appetite of those longing to do a Seas based concentric at a more reasonable cost!

[Jonasz]

SS exchange service. http://www.scan-speak.dk/news/20141212a.htm

Maybe not so interesting for you guys on the other side of the pond due to shipping but an interesting new aproach anyway.

[Jonasz]

Nice measurements comparing the old SS8545 with the new -01 version.

http://www.audioexcite.com/?m=201412

[JonMarsh]

I remember when the 8545 had a lot of projects being introduced for it, back in the day- I was usually working with their kevlar woofers in that time frame.

The Revelation Two monitor project is interesting- reminds me a bit of the Modula MT XE project. Makes me think that if I don't have anything else to do with the 9900, combining it with an ES140ti in a small MT might be a cool thing to do. OTOH, with an MTM would be even better...

[Jonasz]

Wavecor TW022WA06
This one could be a sleeper, 22mm of low distorting guts. According to this german site it's usable from 1,5kHz on up!

http://heissmann-acoustics.de/test-wavecor-tw022wa06/

The low distortion is accompanied by 0.35mm oneway xmax, not bad at all.

http://www.wavecor.com/html/tw022wa06.html

Simple, classy, beautiful looks, and cheap too, €45 in Europe. :P



Imagine this in a compact MTM with Zaph's 5", very low distorting system for almost no money...:P:T

[DS-21]

Does anyone see a reason to prefer the TW022WA06 above to the older '04?

The '04 has a slightly longer theoretical stroke, a neo magnet, and (IMO importantly for a small dome) a smaller flange. The '06 has ferrofluid in the motor.

Solen actually has the neo '04 cheaper than the ferrite '06 right now.

I've been eyeing the '04 for a mini monitor MTM with two Dayton ND105's, along with the SB Acoustics SB26STCN and two hard-dome tweeters I have on hand (Infinity Cascade CMMD + EOS waveguide, Vifa NE25 anodized aluminum.

Unfortunately, nobody who sells to hobbyists has introduces a new neo-magnet metal or ceramic dome tweet in quite some time; if there was a small-flange neo variant of the SB Acoustics SB26ADC I wouldn't be debating other tweeters.

[Jonasz]

I do think this...



...look a lot nicer than this...



I haven't seen any 3rd party measurements of the -04, maybe it's better than Wavecors official data?

[JonMarsh]

I'd say that's a pretty open and shut case...

[5th element]

Wow that 22mm tweeter is pretty dang amazing! It makes me wonder what their tiny little 13mm dome is like.





One thing I'd say about tiny neo vs ferrite magnet stuff is that the neo stuff can have issues with effective venting around the dome and possibly having a large enough chamber to start with. Although the small neo technically has a lower Qts and similarly low fs to the ferrite tweeter clearly something is going on with the lower end of the neo tweet to give it such a rising response.

[JonMarsh]

I do think this...



...look a lot nicer than this...



I haven't seen any 3rd party measurements of the -04, maybe it's better than Wavecors official data?

Pretty reasonable looking spec sheet, too. The calculated Xmax looks ok, at bout 0.35mm. Very nice 30 degree response. Might be worth checking out...

[Jonasz]

Don't remember if this is posted somewhere already but here's a bunch of tests of different SS drivers.

http://www.aos-lautsprecher.de/deutsch/test.html

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Jonas! More reading I don't have time to catch up with! :W

[Jonasz]

Thanks Jonas! More reading I don't have time to catch up with! :W

Reading driver tests is better than a good book... :P

[Jonasz]

The 7,5" Satori is nearing production, here's a pic of the family so far. The 6,5" with an experimental coating applied.



Some T/S:

MW19P-4:

Re = 3.4 ohm
Mms = 18.2 g
Bl = 5.6 Tm
Fs = 30 Hz
Rms = 0.75 kg/s
Cms = 1.55 mm/N
Sd = 158 cm^2
Qms = 4.57
Qes = 0.37
Qts = 0.34
Vas = 54.8 ltr.
SPL (2.83 V/1 m) = 90.5 dB

MW19P-8:

Re = 5.9 ohm
Fs = 31 Hz
Mms = 17 g
Bl = 6.9 Tm
Rms = 0.7 kg/s
Cms = 1.55 mm/N
Sd = 158 cm^2
Qms = 4.7
Qes = 0.41
Qts = 0.38
Vas = 55 ltr.
SPL (2.83 V/1 m) = 88 dB


There are also prototypes of 9,5" and a 13,5" drivers beeing build. Unsure of eventual production though...

9½" (m. 2" voicecoil)
Re = 5.8 ohm
Mms = 40 g
Bl = 9.4 Tm
Fs = 23 Hz
Rms = 1.2 kg/s
Cms = 1.2 mm/N
Sd = 255 cm^2
Qms = 4.82
Qes = 0.38
Qts = 0.35
Vas = 110 ltr.
SPL (2.83 V/1 m) = 88 dB
OD = 242 mm

13½" (m. 3" voicecoil)
Re = 4.2 ohm
Mms = 116 g
Bl = 15.1 Tm
Fs = 20 Hz
Rms = 3.0 kg/s
Cms = 0.55 mm/N
Sd = 572 cm^2
Qms = 4.86
Qes = 0.27
Qts = 0.25
Vas = 254 ltr.
SPL (2.83 V/1 m) = 92 dB
OD = 341 mm

Interesting times ahead... :P

[Face]

Very cool info!

[Jonasz]

Testing of the MW13P, funky linear but great unlinear distortion.

http://medleysmusings.com/mw13p-4/