Statement Series in a Flat Pack Kits.

**Erich H** · 04 May 2011, 20:50 Wednesday

Just some quick photos of the previous Group Buy projects:

Anarchy Tapped horn:

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Overnight Sensations: (held together with tape)

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**yelnatsch517** · 04 May 2011, 21:22 Wednesday

I'm also interested in the Sealed Statements that Eric forgot to mention.

**Bear** · 05 May 2011, 00:11 Thursday

Originally posted by Erich H

Questions:

#1. Materials. Should I have them price it made 100% from Baltic birch? Or 100% from MDF? Or the main part of the cabinet made from Baltic birch, but the baffle could be MDF for easy finishing?

There may be some minor differences between veneering BB vs. MDF, but both are very doable. I'd personally go with BB over MDF for any of a number of reasons completely unrelated to ease of veneering/painting (e.g., MDF off-gases more). Find a cost for both and see what your market wants.

#2. Should I have them cut the front baffle about 1/16" bigger all around so if the sides get veneered, they won't stick out farther than the baffle? Or should they be 1/16" bigger any way just to give some room for error when lining the baffle up with the sides. That would mean the end user would have to do some light sanding to get things perfectly flush though.

If you go with BB, just stick with the as-designed dimensions. A decent CNC shop should get it pretty tight on the tolerances. If someone wants to veneer, they will most likely want to veneer all surfaces. If you skip the baffle, you end up with the ply striping being visible, which has a certain aesthetic to it, but not one I like (note: I'm a big fan of translam -- just not the partial thing).

**technodanvan** · 05 May 2011, 00:31 Thursday

I think I'm on board with Bear, baltic birch all around and keeping the original dimensions would be my preference. The price saving over doing partial BB and MDF likely wouldn't be all that great, and I think keeping the original dimensions would make things easier for the majority of builders out there.

**Ray Collins** · 05 May 2011, 02:31 Thursday

I am in and also support the total baltic birch route.

Doc

**Erich H** · 05 May 2011, 08:19 Thursday

Originally posted by technodanvan

I think I'm on board with Bear, baltic birch all around and keeping the original dimensions would be my preference. The price saving over doing partial BB and MDF likely wouldn't be all that great, and I think keeping the original dimensions would make things easier for the majority of builders out there.

Thanks.

I wasn't thinking of using mdf for the baffles to make things cheaper. I figured it would be easier to finish that way. I know some people paint the baffles and using a roundover on Baltic will make a smooth finish a little bit harder to achieve.

These should be easy to package up and I'll be doing that for free. I just want to make sure people actually want them. I'd probably have to order about 50 pair.

They can't get Baltic in 4x8 panels right now due to Japan buying it all up for rebuilding. So that only leaves 5x5 panels which may introduce a bit of waste in the cutting. I know they can get 4x8's of apple ply which is suppose to be as good as Baltic. I'll have to look into all of that yet.

**Bear** · 05 May 2011, 10:05 Thursday

Originally posted by Erich H

I wasn't thinking of using mdf for the baffles to make things cheaper. I figured it would be easier to finish that way. I know some people paint the baffles and using a roundover on Baltic will make a smooth finish a little bit harder to achieve.

Real, void-free BB isn't a problem with a sharp tool and a touch of patience. It is also far, far less messy if you are doing subsequent machining vs. MDF (respirators aren't necessarily an absolute must-have accessory).

They can't get Baltic in 4x8 panels right now due to Japan buying it all up for rebuilding. So that only leaves 5x5 panels which may introduce a bit of waste in the cutting. I know they can get 4x8's of apple ply which is suppose to be as good as Baltic. I'll have to look into all of that yet.

Apple Ply is actually better and is typically more expensive, at least in the shops I've been in around here. I can get 5x5 BB for around $40/sheet. The 4x8 was a bit more (~$60 - $70, IIRC). The Apple Ply started around $100 for a 4x8 sheet. All of this in 3/4" nominal. Given that Apple Ply can be sourced from US-based sources, these price differences may have changed since I last shopped (well over a year ago), but I doubt that they've changed that much to make AP cheaper than BB.

**Ray Collins** · 05 May 2011, 11:35 Thursday

Apple ply works also...

Doc

**yelnatsch517** · 05 May 2011, 12:31 Thursday

One thing to note is that although the current designs are technically flat packable, their assembly still requires certain degree of woodworking skill. Eric's trying to get these to as many people as possible so a little redesign using dado joints or whatnot would help people who have absolutely no experience working with wood, people like me, tremendously. Something like BigJim's Sealed Statements build as compared to the original Sealed Statements design would be a good analogy to what I'm talking about.

And like I posted in BigJim's build thread, anyone who contributes a design will have a donation button at Eric's website so that anyone who order's and builds a flat pack can show their thanks. I don't know about others, but if I'm willing to donate about 20% of the cost of each flat pack I order to the designer which adds up to quite a bit if 50 people bought a pair. Just a little incentive to help things along. =)

**zacjones** · 05 May 2011, 13:07 Thursday

Great idea. I'm watching this thread with interest. Unfortunately I don't have a specific need right now, but I'm interested nonetheless.

**tjk002** · 05 May 2011, 15:23 Thursday

I am very interested in the sealed statments. I want to build these, but wasn't sure if I could do all the required wood work. So count me in if there is a version for the sealed statements. They would look great sitting on my dual opposed MFW15s.

**bigjohn** · 05 May 2011, 16:18 Thursday

Will there be an option for the full sized Statements?

**impala454** · 05 May 2011, 17:16 Thursday

Possibly interested here as well, would like to see how it works and what the cost is.

**BigJim_inFLA** · 05 May 2011, 20:47 Thursday

This sounds like a great idea. I remember starting out in DIY trying to machine MDF on the tiny balcony of my apartment. As long as we have the OK from Jim & Curt I'll help in any way I can. I think I have all of the drawings I used when I made the changes for my sealed version. Let me know what I can do.

**saabracer23** · 05 May 2011, 22:15 Thursday

I would be interested as well as long as full sized were an option, which would mean 4x8 sheets probably.

Dan

**Erich H** · 05 May 2011, 23:12 Thursday

Permission was given for these flat packs. No intention of selling entire kits and making money like that. And I've had enough free time to box up previous group buys for free as well. So it shouldn't be a problem. I live really close to a company that sells packing material for whole sale prices too, so that's good.

I figured I was a good candidate for these group buys because I run a small landscape business and have an extra small warehouse off to the side that has plenty of storage space. Plus I already have the equipment to move heavy pallets around if needed. It just made sense.

I was told the full sized Statements were very heavy, and shipping would not be pretty. That's why I thought the Monitors made the most sense. I set up an account with FedEx 2 months ago and after a couple Group Buys, they lowered my rate a decent amount. I'm just passing that savings on as well.

As for the donation button, it's really going to be made to go to the speaker designers. Any other help would be appreciated though. This whole idea was to get help from any one in the DIY community that could offer help. And of course will give credit where the help is given. I have no problem getting the group buys going, storing the stuff before shipping, and packing it up. It's really not that difficult once the first few are done.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to post this link, but I'll try:

DIY SOUND GROUP

http://www.diysoundgroup.com

DIY Sound Group, DIY Speaker Kits

You can sort of get a feel for how it's going to all work out. This is just getting started, so I need to update the website and get it completed. I've done what I could in the past few months.

The site needs work and I will get it done. April and half of May is my busiest time of the year by far. Once that's over, I'll be able to spend much more time on all of this.

I'm open to pretty much anything audio related if it helps out the DIY community.

Keep in mind, these "Group Buys" don't require anyone to pay any money up front. Nor do most of them cause you to sell your soul when you sign on. If you change yor mind, that's fine. The waveguide group buy from Poland was different because some of those were custom made. I didn't take any money up front even on those. But it would be a shame if someone pulled out of that group buy, but I'm sure someone else would eventually buy the stuff.

**TedG** · 06 May 2011, 15:30 Friday

I'd be interested in the monitors or maybe the mini's, depending on price.

**domwilson** · 06 May 2011, 15:35 Friday

Originally posted by impala454

Possibly interested here as well, would like to see how it works and what the cost is.

Same here...

**DeathMonk** · 06 May 2011, 17:06 Friday

I would be interested if I didn't build them already... I could probably get some friends and/or family to bite.

**kingpin** · 06 May 2011, 21:14 Friday

If it helps, Erich is a stand up guy. When he says he makes nothing he is true to heart and is one of those rare type of people who aren't looking to benefit.

Mike

P.S. Yes I'm still around.

**a-rone** · 06 May 2011, 22:51 Friday

I am also interested. I'll keep tabs on this thread for updates.

**yelnatsch517** · 07 May 2011, 01:27 Saturday

Originally posted by BigJim_inFLA

This sounds like a great idea. I remember starting out in DIY trying to machine MDF on the tiny balcony of my apartment. As long as we have the OK from Jim & Curt I'll help in any way I can. I think I have all of the drawings I used when I made the changes for my sealed version. Let me know what I can do.

That's awesome BigJim. Sounds like things are really starting to pick up. Once we get the go from Jim and Curt, this is going to be revolutionary. The number of Statement owners will double in just a few months!! I can't thank Erich enough. He's such and awesome person. Just pure awesome. ;x( :B :T

**CWH&R** · 07 May 2011, 15:46 Saturday

I am in on a set of statements.

**Erich H** · 07 May 2011, 17:59 Saturday

Thanks for the comments guys.

The one issue with the Statement series is with the baffles. For example, the Monitors call for an extra piece of 1/2" material to make the baffle 1.25" thick.

Well if the baffle takes 2 pieces sandwiched together, then we can't have the CNC company cut large roundovers because they wouldn't line up smooth when the end user stacked the 2 baffle pieces. I guess it depends on how much of a roundover was used and whether it would cut into that second stacked layer.

There might be a chance to cut the baffle out of 1 piece of mdf.......if they can get mdf in 1.25" panels.

I'm thinking they can cut a pair out of 1 sheet of Baltic birch. Not sure yet. Obviously the CNC is very accurate, but rabbet cuts on thin ply layers aren't as mirror smooth as mdf. They're great, but if the machine is cutting one of those super thin plies in half, some tiny splintering will happen. I think the wood glue fills them anyway. But if the end user plans to paint them, it would be easier to get the boxes perfectly smooth if these were made from mdf versus plywood.

Also, not everyone has a trim router, so these have to made as close to flush as possible. If the edges were cut about 1/32" larger, then the average DIY could easily sand down the sides to get it all smooth......if it was mdf. Sanding down Baltic birch to get things nice and flush isn't as easy. No doubt the CNC can get things VERY close to flush, but humans might not be able to glue it up that accurate!

So there will always be some light sanding no matter what.

Basically I just want to make sure that you guys want these made from Baltic versus the original mdf plans. The first thing I'll get a cost on will be the Monitors. So I want to make sure this is as easy for them as possible with the least number of changes towards the end.

I think the only way for them to give an accurate price is to input the design into their CAD program, then into their CNC software to figure how many minutes it takes to cut each one. That's a lot of work to come up with a free estimate, so I'd like to narrow ideas down as close as possible to the final project so they don't get aggravated with us changing our minds. It's a fairly big company and what we're getting done is small potatoes, so making this as easy as possible will keep the relationship good and prices cheap.

The front baffle is pretty important to decide on. So is the roundover, and whether the outer panels are cut just a little bit bigger to sand down. And of course Baltic or mdf.

**Erich H** · 07 May 2011, 18:03 Saturday

Originally posted by BigJim_inFLA

As long as we have the OK from Jim & Curt I'll help in any way I can.

One of the members on the other forum asked Jim and was told it was okay. I think they posted Jim's response in that long forum over there. I'll have to find it. But he knows it's getting done at cost, and I'll package the stuff for free in my spare time. It's not that hard. The packing material is pretty cheap. The Overnight Sensation box was less than $1 and the Anarchy box was big and cost about $2.50 I think.

Quick question: What are the chances of the drivers being changed or discontinued? I guess worst case scenario would be the need for a new baffle?

**DeathMonk** · 08 May 2011, 21:10 Sunday

Originally posted by Erich H

Thanks for the comments guys.

The one issue with the Statement series is with the baffles. For example, the Monitors call for an extra piece of 1/2" material to make the baffle 1.25" thick.

I used a 3/4" baffle on the statement monitors I just finished. 1.25" is nice but (imo) a bit unnecessary for the monitors.

If I were setting this up I would definitely use MDF as it adds gloss paint as a finishing option--it's also a good bit cheaper.

And as someone stated before, the enclosure design should be modified for dado joints to make assembly easier and more accurate.

**Erich H** · 09 May 2011, 00:20 Monday

Originally posted by DeathMonk

I used a 3/4" baffle on the statement monitors I just finished. 1.25" is nice but (imo) a bit unnecessary for the monitors.

If I were setting this up I would definitely use MDF as it adds gloss paint as a finishing option--it's also a good bit cheaper.

And as someone stated before, the enclosure design should be modified for dado joints to make assembly easier and more accurate.

Yes, it will have dados, rabbet joints, etc. I'd have to ask the designer about changing the baffle thickness. Maybe 1" mdf could be used.

**john trials** · 09 May 2011, 06:57 Monday

I made my Statement CC with two 3/4" sections of MDF (I ran out of 1/2"). I just had to cut out the rear of the baffle a bit more than if I had used a 1/2" section...so that's always an option. I always err on the side of overkill, though! I agree with DeathMonk...3/4" front baffle is probably fine on the Monitors (for most people...but not me

).

Also, since the CNC machine is so accurate, you could have them drill some dowel holes to help with the alignment of the baffle pieces if you decide to use two.

**DeathMonk** · 09 May 2011, 08:08 Monday

Originally posted by Erich H

Yes, it will have dados, rabbet joints, etc. I'd have to ask the designer about changing the baffle thickness. Maybe 1" mdf could be used.

Nice.

Its possible that there is some audible difference on mine. Everyone thats listened to them so far love them though

.

In fact, after a Saturday night listening session I already have a buyer for one of these kits if they happen.

**BeerParty** · 09 May 2011, 10:25 Monday

Originally posted by Erich H

The one issue with the Statement series is with the baffles. For example, the Monitors call for an extra piece of 1/2" material to make the baffle 1.25" thick.

Well if the baffle takes 2 pieces sandwiched together, then we can't have the CNC company cut large roundovers because they wouldn't line up smooth when the end user stacked the 2 baffle pieces. I guess it depends on how much of a roundover was used and whether it would cut into that second stacked layer.

The round-over for the Statements was 3/4", so if you decided to go with the original spec's, only the front baffle of the two pieces would have the round-over. As long as you designed in a way to match up the front two baffles (like the dowels John suggested) you would be fine.

**BeerParty** · 09 May 2011, 10:34 Monday

Originally posted by Erich H

There might be a chance to cut the baffle out of 1 piece of mdf.......if they can get mdf in 1.25" panels.

I seem to recall from your description over on AVS that flipping the the pieces over would raise the cost. If so, there is a good reason to make the baffle in two parts - the back of the front baffle gets opened up for the woofer and mid. You can see an example of this in the back of my front baffles in this post. So if you make the baffle in two pieces, the CNC can make the cuts in the front and back without flipping over any pieces.

**Erich H** · 10 May 2011, 18:55 Tuesday

Originally posted by BeerParty

I seem to recall from your description over on AVS that flipping the the pieces over would raise the cost. If so, there is a good reason to make the baffle in two parts - the back of the front baffle gets opened up for the woofer and mid. You can see an example of this in the back of my front baffles in this post. So if you make the baffle in two pieces, the CNC can make the cuts in the front and back without flipping over any pieces.

Yeh, that's what the CNC company said. Basically they'd like to cut these with the sheet laying flat and be done. If they have to flip panels over, then humans get involved, time goes up, and things get more expensive. I can understand that.

On the Overnight Sensations, I personally ran a chamfer bit around the inside for breathing room on the woofer. It took me about 10 seconds and there was no need to add any extra $$ for doing that. I don't mind doing itt on the Statements either, it really doesn't take long.

If you guys could agree on that front baffle, this would go pretty quick. I'm sure they can get 1.25" mdf ordered, and obviously 1" won't be a problem. It seems like the best way to go with a roundover simply because it will be much smoother.

Then again, we can cut the entire speaker from MDF as well. That holds true to the original design. I'll get them to price it how ever you guys want. And the sooner we can figure out the small details, the sooner these will be knocked out. Pricing should be really nice.

Personally I think a 1 piece extra thick baffle might be the best way to go for the average DIY guy.

After that's decided, then we have to decide if the bafle should be cut 1/32" wider all around just in case there's human error when assembling the kit.

By the way, can anyone point me in the direction of the exact port that's needed for the Monitors?

**DeathMonk** · 10 May 2011, 19:57 Tuesday

It's the 2" Precision Port:

Link

I personally think a 1 piece baffle would make it easier for the average woodworker to line up, since the baffle is the only piece that couldn't have a CNCd joint on the back.

If there are dados joints/etc for the box portion of the kit, there should be no need for slop on the baffle.

The only plus side to a 2 piece baffle would be as beerparty pointed out. The back portion of the baffle could be chamfered as the original plans call for.

Also, I couldn't tell if you were volunteering to chamfer every baffle in the kit or saying that it's easy to do for someone who buys the kit

Edit: I am really surprised that Jim or Curt hasn't chimed in on this thread...

**Jim Holtz** · 10 May 2011, 20:15 Tuesday

Originally posted by DeathMonk

It's the 2" Precision Port:

Link

Edit: I am really surprised that Jim or Curt hasn't chimed in on this thread...

I've been following the thread but didn't see anything to offer. It looks like you all have it under control. I'd given my blessing earlier when contacted and I suspect Curt is OK with it too since it's a group buy for CNC'ed cabinets. I'm a very reluctant cabinet maker so I think this is great! :T

The inside round over (I use a 3/4" round over on the mids and woofers inside) or bevel is VERY important to prevent shrouding of the mids causing a tunnel effect. A 1" baffle would be fine but it does get a bit thin after recessing the drivers and doing inside round overs. 1 1/2" was too thick for the W4-1337's but 1 1/4" seemed to work out just right. Plenty of strength and material to work with.

Jim

**JonP** · 10 May 2011, 21:46 Tuesday

Thought I'd chime in with an alternate idea for the front baffle...

What do you think of putting some dado cuts in, to glue in edge braces(?) of BB on a regular thickness baffle? They would add stiffness to the 3/4" materiel without the added cost of a thicker piece. Save some shipping weight, too.

I'm not sure of the name of the kind of brace I'm thinking of. It's where you glue a narrow board edge on to a surface, making a T-member with the panel. Adds stiffness but doesn't brace to the opposing side. A number of these horizontal and vertical should get fairly close to a solid panel, I would think.

Anyone have opposing thoughts on how well this would work?

**Ray Collins** · 10 May 2011, 22:06 Tuesday

1.25" MDF baffle and the rest plywood; relieving the driver rear openings is too simple to stall this...

Doc

**Erich H** · 10 May 2011, 23:08 Tuesday

Originally posted by Jim Holtz

I've been following the thread but didn't see anything to offer. It looks like you all have it under control. I'd given my blessing earlier when contacted and I suspect Curt is OK with it too since it's a group buy for CNC'ed cabinets. I'm a very reluctant cabinet maker so I think this is great! :T

The inside round over (I use a 3/4" round over on the mids and woofers inside) or bevel is VERY important to prevent shrouding of the mids causing a tunnel effect. A 1" baffle would be fine but it does get a bit thin after recessing the drivers and doing inside round overs. 1 1/2" was too thick for the W4-1337's but 1 1/4" seemed to work out just right. Plenty of strength and material to work with.

Jim

I'm glad you posted your thoughts. So do you think I should have them use Baltic birch for everything and then try to get 1.25" thick mdf for the baffle?

It seems like that would be the easiest way to go. But I'm no CNC operator, so who knows. I'm sure they can get that thickness, or at least very close. When I was getting the Anarchy's done the guy walked me around their shop and I saw what must have been 12' sheets of 2" thick mdf. I commented how nice that was and he laughed ans said 'no that's murder'. :lol: I guess those 2" massive sheets must weigh a huge amount. So I'm sure they can get the 1.25".

To the other poster, I honestly don't mind running a router around the inside of the driver cut outs like I did with the Overnight Sensations. It won't take much time and I don't mind doing it.

If anyone has exact verified measurements for the recess diameter and depth, or any measurements that might have changed, or work better if changed a little bit, etc, just let me know. Obviously that will speed things up and cut down on the test box being wrong.

There's a forum member working on drawing it up right now, so any thoughts would help and make it easier.

**Jim Holtz** · 11 May 2011, 06:29 Wednesday

I've never used Baltic Birch so I really don't know much about it beyond the benefits usually touted for it are reduced weight and dust. Shipping would be some what less. I think I'd recommend a MDF front baffle so it could be finished with paint more easily.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

**jmik26** · 11 May 2011, 09:04 Wednesday

I would be interested in a set... Jeff

**PanteraGSTK** · 11 May 2011, 12:05 Wednesday

Is this a one time thing, or would I be able to order this flat pack kit any time? Also, is it just for full size statements, or for mini's, center, and monitor as well?

**Theresa** · 11 May 2011, 12:09 Wednesday

deleted by poster

**Bear** · 11 May 2011, 16:33 Wednesday

Originally posted by Jim Holtz

I've never used Baltic Birch so I really don't know much about it beyond the benefits usually touted for it are reduced weight and dust. Shipping would be some what less. I think I'd recommend a MDF front baffle so it could be finished with paint more easily.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

BB is pretty easy to paint. A lot of high-end cabinetry gets done in BB, and a lot of that gets painted. That being said, you do have grain structure in BB that doesn't exist in MDF, but you are basically talking an extra base coat or two, which is nothing compared to some of the piano gloss finishes some folks around here are doing with MDF.

**DeathMonk** · 11 May 2011, 19:28 Wednesday

The BB I used had some deep grain--more than a couple of base coats worth.

Other than shipping costs, why BB? MDF is cheaper and that would probably offset the shipping cost.

Also, there will be no cutting involved, so no dust problems.. At most maybe some light sanding will be needed.

**Ray Collins** · 12 May 2011, 02:08 Thursday

You can't stain MDF it has to be veneered; it is simple to go either way with plywood. I prefer using plywood and a MDF baffle. Just one "vote".

Doc

Statement Series in a Flat Pack Kits.

Statement Series in a Flat Pack Kits.

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