Aurasound 3-way (WMT)

[Bukem]

Hi Guys,

I am seriously thinking of building a nice 3-way system. One of the things I was hoping to get some input on is driver selection. I saw Jed's system which is absolutely wicked but the combination of drivers would probably put it out of my budget. I can pick a more expensive driver but it would need to be compensated elsewhere.

As per the title I had a 10 or 12" 513 series Aura Sound driver in mind, although I am open for suggestions. let me know which one you guys might prefer. Apparently the Scanspeak 26W alu cone driver is a real beauty as well but I was hoping to keep cost somewhat reasonable so it would need to be compensated elsewhere. So for now the list is:

• Aurasound 10" 513 series (perhaps 2x ?)
• Aurasound 12" 513 series
• Scanspeak 26W Alu

The biggest challenge is probably the mid driver in combination with the tweeter. I'm looking at a metal cone for the mid driver and I want to stay well clear of the driver cone breakup so that is something to consider in tweeter choice. On the other hand JonM might have some filter tricks up his sleeve to better deal with this

The mid drivers I am currently considering are:

• Dayton Audio RS100-4
• Visaton Ti100
• Visaton AL130 (ugly)
• Seas W12CY001 (ugly as well)
• Thiel&Partner C 173N-T6-90 (bloody expensive but damned sexy)
• ATD Hypergraph 130 Ti

I know I should consider the Tang Band W4-1337SA but I just hate the fact that it doesn't have a black frame (or is it just that all the pics look bad). I want things to sound good but I am a sucker for aesthetics! RS52 dome is a no-no.

Tweeters, good experience with soft domes but given the system it might be a better choice going for a metal or ceramic tweeter. Candidates are:

• Seas 22TAF - 19mm alu dome
• Seas 27TBFCG - 25mm alu dome
• Seas 27TDFC - 25mm soft dome
• Scanspeak 3004-6600 Aircirc soft dome
• Morel ET338-104 soft dome
• Eton 26HD1/A8 Magnesium Dome Tweeter

So all in all a nice selection to choose from. If you guys have a better idea then please don't hold back. Any input is very much appreciated.

Best regards,

Bukem

[Bukem]

This is more or less what I had in mind. The picture is based on the 12" aura.

Image not available

[Bukem]

I came across another mid(woofer) that might be interesting. It's made by ATD in Italy and is called the ATD HYPERGRAPH 130 TI. At a whopping €308 not the cheapest though...can't find any further info so I have no clue weather it's any good at all!



I believe this driver was used in the old Magico Mini as well. They later replaced it with a "Nano-Tec" woofer.


Rgds,

Bukem

[Jed]

That's a lot of drivers to choose from. You really need to nail down a budget first because you have some drivers that cost $30 and some at $600. As for my latest design I'll have all the drivers available in a kit at some point.

[Bukem]

Hi Jed,

Thanks for your comments. The only two drivers that really stand out ($$$) are the ATD and Thiel&Partner. If they are absolutely top notch for mid-duties then I will consider them. However, what I've noticed though is that some drivers offer exceptional value for money, such as the RS100-4, which is the reason why I have included these. It's my aim to create a system which offers good value for the money spent. So if the Visaton Ti100 is going to give me 95% of the T&P's performance then the choice is easily made.

As a rough guide, I'd say about $750 per channel on just the drivers, not the x-over. If the Thiel&Partner is absolutely exceptional I am willing to stretch my budget.

[Hdale85]

I'd imagine those high dollar drivers are going to move you away from the "good value" factor The Scanspeak mids (15W) are supposed to be amazingly nice and quite a bit cheaper then some of your drivers listed. Of course it's a paper cone but it's a very sexy driver as well.

[Bukem]

Hi Dougie,

You're absolutely right about the high value proposition. I have looked at the scanspeak drivers, the one thing though that I don't find with scanspeak is an alu mid driver. There's a new 18cm illuminator alu driver but unfortunately no smaller version at the moment.

I'm currently using a scanspeak 9900 revelator combined with the 18H from audiotechnology. I want something different and as such I really have my mind set on a "hard cone" system, the only possible exception being the tweeter.

I do agree that scanspeak does make some amazing drivers.

Rgds,

Bukem

[brianpowers27]

This is more or less what I had in mind. The picture is based on the 12" aura.

Image not available

Bukem,

Looks nice. WHat are the general dimensions you are envisioning. This reminds me a lot fo Maynard G's current project posted over at PE. I believe he ordered 1.5" roundovers for the sides...

[Bukem]

Hi Brian,

The speaker in the picture is quite large due to the 12". It measures 450x450x1200mm which is pretty big. If I'd use the 10" (or perhaps 2 of these) then I'd be able to reduce the width somewhat.

I'd finish it in black piano gloss. Thanks for your kind words.

Rgds,

Bukem

[Bukem]

I must admit that I've had some inspiration......

[Jonasz]

RS270/T6/810921 should be a very nice low distortion combo if you really want to use the T6.

[taloyd]

midrange!

This should definitely be a contender! Higher efficiency, and likely better sonics than the others mentioned...

https://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1705&p=5272#p5272

And as far as top-end goes, AudioTechnology / C-Quenze


cheers,
-Tal

[JonMarsh]

This should definitely be a contender! Higher efficiency, and likely better sonics than the others mentioned...

https://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1705&p=5272#p5272

And as far as top-end goes, AudioTechnology / C-Quenze


cheers,
-Tal

Both the impedance curve and the amplitude response show some sort of issue at 500 Hz- a dip in the frequency response, and a bump in the impedance curve, indicating energy storage.

Curiously, the last message on the front page of the web site indicates the 6.5's will start shipping in January 2009.

It has not yet been made available on the product page... in early May.

[Paul Ebert]

RS270/T6/810921 should be a very nice low distortion combo if you really want to use the T6.

Yeah, this sounds really nice (go with the Aura 10", if you'd prefer it and can deal with the 4 ohm impedance - it's not that much more $). If you need to go cheaper, I would go with the Visaton Ti100. IMO, the air circ doesn't give much benefit over the HDS in this application.

How about the Seas DXT?

[Bukem]

Thanks for all the replies!

I do have a soft spot for the Aura so I'd rather use that over the RS270's. I'd like to have plenty of cone surface as well. If I look at the list for midrange drivers then I'd lean towards the visaton Ti100 as I can't make a judgement on the relative quality of the T6 in relation to the visaton. I'd need to do some more in depth research into both units. If you guys want to share your opinion on these then please do not hesitate to share your views.

I've done some more reading up on the HDS tweeter and there seems to be a rising top end. Obviously not something that can't be fixed in the x-over but if it doesn't need fixing in the first place then that's always better. I do think it's a sweet lookin' dome though, reminds me of the aircirc a bit.

[Bukem]

Yeah, this sounds really nice (go with the Aura 10", if you'd prefer it and can deal with the 4 ohm impedance - it's not that much more $). If you need to go cheaper, I would go with the Visaton Ti100. IMO, the air circ doesn't give much benefit over the HDS in this application.

How about the Seas DXT?

2 x Aura 10" in series then...?

[Paul Ebert]

If you can accommodate the resulting enclosure size, sure!

[TacoD]

2 x Aura 10" in series then...?

I would not put woofers with low inductance in series (aura has copper sleeve in the magnet gap). Woofers have to be really the same otherwise one of the woofers will consume more of the signal.

As you indicate not to have problems with the larger 12", I would settle for that one. I would also not spend all the budget on the mid, in my view you can better reserve some money for a proper tweeter. What about the Scanspeak Be tweeter .

For a hard cone you can also look at the
Eton 4", not the best motor but it has one of the best cones around.

[Bukem]

I would not put woofers with low inductance in series (aura has copper sleeve in the magnet gap). Woofers have to be really the same otherwise one of the woofers will consume more of the signal.

Now we're talking! Thanks, that's not something which would have crossed my mind.

As you indicate not to have problems with the larger 12", I would settle for that one.

A 12" does have my preference.

I would also not spend all the budget on the mid, in my view you can better reserve some money for a proper tweeter. What about the Scanspeak Be tweeter .

Do you mean the focal (car) be tweeter?

For a hard cone you can also look at the
Eton 4", not the best motor but it has one of the best cones around.

Interesting....I'll have a look at that one.

In my search for mid drivers I also stumbled into this one:

Audax HM100C0, have you ever used/heard this one?



EDIT: just noticed there's a 130 version as well.



Many thanks for your input!

Bukem

[Bukem]

Taco, the Eton 4" you suggested is that the "Symphony" 4-200 or 4-202?

Image not available

Rgds,

Bukem

[Bukem]

Wicked tweeter !! AirCirc Beryllium :B Thanks Taco for the tip.



Datasheet: d3004-664000.pdf

[TacoD]

Taco, the Eton 4" you suggested is that the "Symphony" 4-200 or 4-202?

Image not available

Rgds,

Bukem

For pure mid duties I prefer kapton voice coil formers. I have no experience with the new symphony series, it looks like a touch up of the old line. So I am not sure if the performance is on par with the latest offerings of other companies.

The Audax carbon woofers are around for many years, iirc Audax was already offering these woven carbon drivers 10 years back. Von Schweikert VR6 uses two of these on the mid band



These woofers are not bad at all, even distortion levels are lower than some of the newer offerings. These are not the true piston like drivers you are looking for. The Audax Aearogel HDA cones are, but like the carbon ones modern designed woofers surpass these beauties on power handling/ distortion/ resolution.

[Jed]

I tested the 4" driver and the motor is no better than years past. Only improvements are a bit more venting. Shame on Eton for wasting a great opportunity to take things to the next level like just about every other manufacturer is doing. They continue to rely on marketing their cones to sell product-- at least in the DIY sector. Just my 2 cents.

[Bukem]

Hi Jed,

That sure sounds like a bit of a disappointment. Can you post the freq,imp and distortion plots if you still have these? On the other hand, if the motor still "does the trick" then why change it....

Aside from the Accuton mid you use in your speaker, what would be your best suggestion for a "pistonic" midrange which does measure like you would expect it to measure?

Cheers,

Bukem

[Evil Twin]

The current/old Eton motor "doesn't do the trick", and you don't need measurements from Jed to highlight this- just look at the data sheet for the 4-200 Symphony driver- at a constant drive level, the 3rd harmonic distortion marches steadily upwards from 200 Hz to 2 kHz, due to inductivity modulation- the impedance curve itself predicts a simple motor without copper rings in the gap.

Contrast that with the impedance curve of the Scanspeak 12MU/4731T which stays under 10 ohms all the way out to 20 kHz.

I concur completely with Jed's assessment, based on the facts.

For the prices.

[Bukem]

Thanks Evil Twin for your comments. It is a shame that Eton does mate their excellent cones with a proper engine.

I am starting to get the feeling that the Visaton Ti100 is the winning ticket here. I need to do some more research into this combination to see if it's going to work at all but for now I'm starting to like this:

• Aura 12" 513 series
• Visaton Ti100
• Scanspeak D3004/6640

You can call me mad but I have a feeling this could become a foot tapping system. Current concerns:

1) x-over point WM @ let's say 300Hz in combination with Ti100 xmax/Max SPL
2) Best Vb/tuning for the 12" aura given a solid brick building, smooth roll-off.
3) Availability of the Be tweeter - any info on cost yet? (I expect the worst ;-) )

Rgds,

Bukem

[Hdale85]

If all you're looking for is foot tapping you could spend far less :B

[Bukem]

My shower radio gets my hips moving for 10 bucks! How 'bout that ;-p

[Evil Twin]

Driver selection can be a true challenge.

The Visaton has class leading harmonic distortion up to 1 kHz, considering both 2nd and 3rd harmonic. But at 1400 Hz, the 3rd order harmonic starts spiking upwards by 20 dB, presumably due to resonance amplification, in a frequency range where human hearing is quite acute, though nothing to match the Verpine. This suggests taking some care in choosing the crossover frequency and slope going to the tweeter, and may eliminate some possible target functions from consideration.

Now, if one weights one's considering to primarily 3rd order harmonic, and examines other contenders, then you can match HD3 with the RS100-4 with low numbers until 2 kHz, where it also has a jump in HD output, either from cone or frame resonance. In this regard, the TB W4-1337s does not reach such low levels of HD in the 200-1kHz range, but it doesn't have any harmonic spikes in the 1-6 kHz range, either. And at ~$50, it's easy to perceive as a value leader compared to the Visaton. The Visaton has an edge in sensitivity, so one will do whereas two of the 1337s are usually needed in parallel.

In contrast, the very low HD of the C79 and it's higher sensitivity compared with other small drivers suitable for midrange duties put it's performance in a different class.

[Bukem]

Evil Twin, many thanks for your insights. I have a tricky question for you.

Do you think a driver can have "high-ish" harmonic distortion but still sound good or do you believe that low harmonic distortion is a prerequisite for good sound?

The reason why I ask this is because I have a feeling that drivers' specs do not tell the full story. Isn't it true that a driver can measure well but still sound like "crap"?

[Hdale85]

I can somewhat answer that question if you're looking for accuracy then you're going to want low harmonic distortion because you don't want anything added. Not all harmonic distortion sounds bad though. Most tube amps/preamps add harmonic distortion to the signal. It's what gives the tubey sound generally and many many people like that sound.

[Bear]

As you indicate not to have problems with the larger 12", I would settle for that one. I would also not spend all the budget on the mid, in my view you can better reserve some money for a proper tweeter. What about the Scanspeak Be tweeter

Is that available in the wild yet? It sure hasn't shown up with any of the usual suspects.

[dlneubec]

The AE Lambda TD12H is a VERY nice 12" woofer for a 3way and no need for two.
TD12H

[Bukem]

Hi Doug,

What I am trying to say is that my "wet dream" is not a driver that measures well but a driver that sounds good. I can understand and value the relationship between HD and good sound but I'd prefer a good sounding one over one that measures well I suppose. If it sounds good AND measures well than that's even better! Building a speaker is a means to an end which is listening and enjoying music.

[Bukem]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the tip!

It's a bit of shame though that for the price of 1 lambda I can get 2 Aura's over here. Do you think it's significantly better than the 12" Aura?

Cheers,

Bukem

[dlneubec]

I can't say for sure, since I've not heard the Aura's or seen them tested, but the motor design is about as good as it gets on the Lambda's and I can tell you that the TD12H measures essentially flat out to past 2khz. They are the best sounding woofer I've heard.

Here is an in box measurement of the TD12H's in my BaSSlines cabinet. It is a near and far field merge (sorry for the large image). Below that is the driver impedance in box.

[Bukem]

Hi Dan,

That's a funky lookin' graph! Looks good to me. You've been building some impressive speakers ;x(

I believe JonMarsh has tested the Aura's and if memory serves me right he was pleasantly surprised with it's distortion characteristics. The Aura also have a nice and compact neodym motor assembly which should assist in an unrestricted rear flow.

Nonetheless thanks for posting the charts. It's much appreciated.

Cheers,

Bukem

[Jed]

You can find some of my tests of the aurasound NS10 513 around here or my website under the driver test section. It's good below 200hz and other drivers including the RS270, Seas L26, Seas W26 were better above that area. The NS10 is a nice sub.

[Bukem]

Hi Jed,

JonMarsh did some testing on the Aurasound NS12. (I've found it :W ) I get the impression that his impressions on the NS12 don't quite equate to your experience with the NS10. Do you think you had a bad sample?

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=242114&postcount=265

Rgds,

Bukem

[Evil Twin]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the tip!

It's a bit of shame though that for the price of 1 lambda I can get 2 Aura's over here. Do you think it's significantly better than the 12" Aura?

Cheers,

Bukem

And why would you think that a driver that measures well won't sound good? Unless your concept of good is something other than neutral, of course- it's a free galaxy, unfortunately, and there's nothing to bar you from selecting components for your favorite coloration. But in that case you are on your own, as no one else will know what coloration you like.


In regards to the comparison about vacuum tubes, in general vacuum tube amplifiers may be preferred not because of their additional second order distortion, but because they lack the higher distortions many high feedback solid state amplifiers have had in the past. Low order harmonic distortion is much less objectionable, in most cases, merely adding a little warmth and mud to the sound, not grit and grunge.

[Bukem]

And why would you think that a driver that measures well won't sound good?

The distortion measurements of a Dayton RS180 against the Seas Excel W18EX001 highlight the issue.

[Bukem]

Unless your concept of good is something other than neutral, of course- it's a free galaxy, unfortunately, and there's nothing to bar you from selecting components for your favorite coloration. But in that case you are on your own, as no one else will know what coloration you like.

I fully agree with you on that.

[Evil Twin]

The distortion measurements of a Dayton RS180 against the Seas Excel W18EX001 highlight the issue.

How so? Both have weakness in the measured performance as well as the audible, though those of the RS180 are much more easily excused at it's price point.

[Bukem]

Evil Twin,

The point is that the Seas sounds better, even though the Dayton provides some impressive specs (and if you want to introduce price into the equation - at an impressive price point) Measured performance on these two drivers is not that far apart.

[Evil Twin]

I can't say for sure, since I've not heard the Aura's or seen them tested, but the motor design is about as good as it gets on the Lambda's and I can tell you that the TD12H measures essentially flat out to past 2khz. They are the best sounding woofer I've heard.

Here is an in box measurement of the TD12H's in my BaSSlines cabinet. It is a near and far field merge (sorry for the large image). Below that is the driver impedance in box.

And how does the distortion profile look? especially in the 100Hz to 1 kHz area which is problematic for many larger drivers. What about off axis response? And what about those slight bobbles in the impedance curve at 400, 600, and 1500 Hz? One or more could be surround resonances, or ?

In a three way, of course, with crossover points at 400 Hz or thereabouts, the higher issues are a moot point. The frequency response does look smooth- a well engineered paper cone.

How does it model in Soundeasy or Unibox in the enclosure size you used for the baSSlines?