Best Plate Subwoofer Amp for 15" Aurasound ?

[david teltschik]

I just got the new 15" Aurasound subwoofer driver for a new christmas project. I couldn't help but see that the PartsExpress 500W sub amp with a one band parametric EQ is on sale for a great deal. Is that enough of an amp for the big Aurasound driver? Or should I save up for the ADA1200 amp from Adire....or....any suggestions?

[Jack Gilvey]

Tough to say without specs.

[ThomasW]

If you have a NS15-992-4A then cool, and $pendy ....... :T

I'd certainly buy something better than the PE amp to power it, given it's real world sensitivity of 86dB..... 8O

[david teltschik]

how about the ADA series of amps from adire audio? I've aleady spend a pretty penny for the best driver for me. It would pain me a bit to have to spend almost a grand for a prosound amp or something. But that crown K2 does look intreaguing (I'd have to do some EQ othewise with that amp though). The adire amps aren't pretty, but they have some descent specs anyway.
The ADA amps are rated as follows:

Power Rating ADA300: 300W into 4 Ohms (150W/8 Ohm)
ADA600: 600W into 4 Ohms (300W/8 Ohm)
ADA1200: 1200W into 4 Ohms (600W/8 Ohm)
S/N Ratio Greater than 98 dB
THD Less than 0.05% (10 kHz bandwidth)
Bandwidth 14 Hz to 500 Hz, +0/-3 dB
Damping Factor 400 at 4 Ohms (800 at 8 Ohms)
Input Impedance 10 kOhm resistive
Rumble Filter 2 Hz second order Q=0.5
Gain -10 to +20 dB
Phase 0° to 180°
Crossover Twin cascaded second order Q=0.707 adjustable from 35 to 110 Hz
Crossover Defeat? YES (select none, 2nd order, 4th order)
EQ Dual parametric EQs (bandwidth 0.3 to 2.5 octaves, Fc 16 to 80 Hz, gain ±12 dB)
EQ Defeat? YES
Pole Shifter? YES (user supplied components)
Dipole EQ? YES (user supplied components)
Balanced Inputs? OPTIONAL
Overall Size 10.5" x 10.5" (custom sizes available - contact Adire)
Cutout Size 9.5" x 9.5" (custom sizes available - contact Adire)
Mounting Depth ADA300: 4.5"
ADA600: 5.75"
ADA1200: 6.5"
Remote mount power supply: 2"
Weight ADA300: 15 pounds
ADA600: 18 pounds
ADA1200: 22 pounds
Price: ADA300: $449
ADA600: $549
ADA1200: $599

[david teltschik]

the crown amp does have a MUCH better damping factor, but honestly, most of the subs in the commercial market that I drool over don't have a damping factor any better than the adire/PE amps. Nowhwere neer the >2000 damping factor of the crown k2

[ThomasW]

At this point the Crown is the holy grail of switching amps.

Unless you're very lucky, the Adire's built-in EQ won't be flexible enough to do the job. Very few people get by needing only 2 bands of EQ.

If you need/want a plate amp Adire's probably a good deal.

Personally I'm not a big fan of plate amps, I want my amp, EQ, etc., as separates that I can upgrade as needed.

[david teltschik]

what is the best plate amp?

What is your ya'll opinions on who makes the best subwoofer, plate amplifier? From what I can tell, the adire ADA amps are better then than the PE amps (which are way cheaper in price too), but does anyone know of any that are the best?

[ThomasW]

There are only a few mfgrs of plate amps.

http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-d-subamps.php3

The new big ones from Adire seem to be the pick of the litter.

[Al Garay]

If you are sticking with plate amps, research the Hypex amps. The HS500 can handle a Tumult should handle your case as well.

Al

[david teltschik]

How do the hypex amps compare to the adire amps...quality wise? The adire amps appear to be more feature rich with dual parametric EQ and no noisy fan, but the hypec amps appear to have a better damping factor...more prosound like in that respect. The HS750 is an interresting prospect with it's 1000 damping factor, but again...no parametric EQ. I don't have parametric EQ now, but id like to give room equalization a whirl with this setup...it might need it with as much air as it will move.

[taz13]

Eq

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-656

BFD feedback destroyer by behringer and then you don't need to worry about built in eq.
www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm is the setup procedure.

[Andrew Pratt]

Personnal I agree with Thomas that seperates are easier to work with and don't have to cost more then plate amps. That driver really needs more power then the 300-500 watt units which means you're looking at the 1000 watt model...and very like a BFD as well anyway to get the most out of it. Depending on where the amp has to sit you don't have to go all the way up the ladder to the Crown. The Crown is no doubt the be all and end all for pro amps but if you can deal with the fan noise there's plenty of other amps that will do you just fine. I'm now using a QSC amp to power my Tumult which gives me just over 800 watts and it can be bought from PE for about $300! Now the fan noise is pretty loud so you wouldn't want it in the same room as your music gear (IMO) but there's mod's to tame that down or try some of the quieter amps like the Samson S1000 etc.

[ThomasW]

How do the hypex amps compare to the adire amps...quality wise?

Who knows? No one I know has ever done a big shootout between plate amps. There was a small comparison a few years back in AudioXpress but the data is stale by now.

You certainly won't hear a difference between an amp with a damping factor of 1000 vs 2000.

Usually plate amp buyers are targeting convenience and low cost, not state of the art performance.

Since this is a difficult issue, and you keep returning to the Adire ADA1200, you should probably just get it. I don't know of any better plate amp out there. Just understand that you may need more EQ than the 2 bands it provides

[david teltschik]

Might stick with what I have till I feel the need to upgrade.

I think I might stick with my 480W plate amp that I currently have for a while and see what it sounds like with that. It is an old PE amp...I know...it's crap without an EQ (controlable anyways....I had to figure out how to defeat the automatic 5dB boost at 25Hz to get it flat), but I have it...it's free. I know that the prosound amps with multiple band EQ is the way to go, but I must admit that I like having an all in one package for a sub at least. I'm way into seperates for my audio setup, but I like a neat/clean look in my rack and honestly, those EQs are butt ugly. I know that's a terrible way to put together a system, but I'll admit it where others might now...i'm a bit vain when it comes to my audio room. I want everything to look JUST right you know? Baring any pro sound amps with cooling fans......that doesn't leave me many options anyway...cept some VERY nice amps that cost more than a grand. Hmm.......possinly I could put a shelf inside my sub facing backwards to house all those seperates...that way they would be in the sub/not in the rack.....might be worthwhile to see. I have to see how big that would make the enclosure. LOL....oh well...who needs to save $$ anyway right?

But like I said...I'll see how free sounds before I go buy any amps yet....especially with no one giving any glowing suggestions.....just "ah.....plate amps...whatever" sort of response.

[Andrew Pratt]

You can't argue with free

[david teltschik]

That you can't. Question....where does it start to matter in the damping factor rhelm? I read in another post that you can't hear the difference between 1000 and 2000, but where can you start to hear the difference.....going from 400 to 800.....from 800 to a 1000?

[taz13]

Depends what you define as ugly. I actually find the look of the BFD to be not bad, probably because its clean with no sliders. However the the front panel LEDs can get busy. Attached thumbnail is from Parts Express and personally I really don't mind the look.

[Bent]

Can anybody tell me the component width of the BFD?
(not including the rackmount ears.

[david teltschik]

exactly...I"m not a fan of "busy" front panels. All of my equipment has a switchable display to turn off when I want (my sacd/cd player and my amp and power conditioner all do this). So all I see is the preamp/procesor display with it's nice dim/blue color. I don't like the tokyo at night scenario that lots of people like to do. I'm an understated/classical type of guy...especially with all my Ethan Allen furniture in a "english Pub" type of style. Plus I don't like a rack with 18 components either.....simple simple simple is my moto! All I have in my entertainment console right now is my B&K ref 50 and Ref200.7 amp with my SCD-C555ES sacd/cd player and my HTPS-7000 balanced power conditioner. It looks VERY nice..nothing showy...just there...in the background....like equipment should be. Afterall it's not about who has the most equipemnt with the brightest LEDs....it's about the music! Don't distract me with bright displays and loud cooling fans....they need not apply.

[GrahamT]

Bent,
The BFD is 17" without the ears but if you take the ears off there is nothing behind them, just a big hole.

[Andrew Pratt]

David I feel the same way about lights...I actually turn off all my displays so the only lights I see are the power LED's. I also moved my gear rack so that its recessed into the side wall so I don't have the lights bothering me during a movie. For me the BFD is necessary though to get the bass response I want so I found a way to deal with the ugly BFD and pro amp and that's move them into another room. For me that's easy as they're just sitting on top of the gear rack on the other side of the common wall between the HT room and the shop/laundry room.

[david teltschik]

I'm not as lucky. I'm renting from a friend right now and the subwoofer will be on an exterior wall, adjoining the kitchen (with all the plumbing). When I get my own house I'll definatley have a audio closet in the back to put all my stuff in with a good RF remote, but that isn't in the picture for another year or so till I save up for the downpayment (hard to do buying aurasound subs......but I'll sacrifice for a while). I'd love to use the crown k1 birdged with the BSD...if I had a place to get it out of my site...I agree...that's the best way to go. But for the next year or two...I need a plate amp I think. Like I said...simple simple simple. The Ref50 can do some EQ as well......it's actually rather good to get rid of the strongest resonance in the bass/midbass region. That's what I"m using right now, with a basic plate amp. Only thing I don't like about sub amps is the rumble filter most have. They put that in there for drivers that don't have the xmax capability that good ones do....and causes the loss of the very information that we're trying to reproduce....ya idiot designers!

[david teltschik]

Just a curious question....why does everyone say that the 15" aurasound driver needs so much power? I am afterall going to use a vented enclosure.....shouldn't 112bB output at my plate amps max output be enough.....lol? Or is it a headroom issue that you are hinting at? My main speakers top out at 108dB max output...why do I need so much sub output then? Shouldn't it be about the same level?

[Bent]

Graham, thansk.
I was wondering about how tricky it would be to actually install the BFD inside of a sub enclosure, but it lookslike I'll be mounting my plate amp (ADA 1200) outside the box for now as well.
I sent the MO out for the amp today, and Bob at CSS has one left with my name on it.

[Dennis H]

Damping factor is overrated as a critical spec. Just to put things in perspective, for the Orion, I believe SL recommends amps with a damping factor greater than 50. Here's why:

Published damping factor = 8 / (output impedance of amp)
Real damping factor = 8 / (output impedance of amp + impedance of the speaker wire)

So, even if you had a "perfect" amp, with an output impedance of zero and a quoted damping factor of infinity, you are still limited by the impedance of the wire. Say you use a nice fat wire with a low impedance of 0.1 ohm.

Real damping factor = 8 / (0 + 0.1) = 80

[david teltschik]

Best Plate Subwoofer Amp?

I'm looking to get the best plate subwoofer amp I can afford. I have been looking into the Adire ADA series, hypex H500, 1000W Parts Express, and some others. I was hoping to get some input on plate amps. What has used what with what? Any suggestions?

I just got a Aurasound 15" driver and need a good strong subwoofer amp to power the setup in a vented enclosure.

[Bent]

I have an ADA 1200 on the way, but God Himself only knows when I'll get around to building my sub. (I did stop in at a cabinet maker's for an estimate, but he hasn't returmed any calls - It might just be time to by a router and learn how to do it myself...) I'll be creating something very similar to the AS-15

Oh, about the amp - I won't have anything to compare it to, other than the 130 watt rms, non equalized, non cascadeable crossovere'd PSB Century 2i (Subsonic 6) that I just sold recently, but I will provide a review - as well as some nice photos.

[david teltschik]

DIY is where the fun is!

Having looked at the models for the aurasound 15" subwoofer, the tubular ports would be too long for the box I am thinking about...less I use elbow joints and that has never turned our well for my projects in the past. I think I'll end up mimicing the Wilson Watch Dog box design with it's pair of slot ports.

Just FYI..i got my aurasound subwoofer this evening. And let me tell you something...this thing is freaking MASSIVE! The build quality on this thing is amazing. Although I am beginning to see why people are pushing kW amps. The suspension on this thing is VERY stiff......I can see where this thing eats up power now.

I have to admit though.....building the enclosure is WAY satisfying. Something fun about doing that from scratch. I say bravo for wanting to buy a router and go to town building an enclosure. Tablesaw is VERY helpfull to by the way....lol

[ThomasW]

The two threads discussing this driver and amps were merged and given an appropriate title.

[Spearmint]

I have the Hypex HS500 powering my 15Hz ported Tumult, and so far the fan has never turned on, and I am told the fan is quite, but I cannot confirm this.

Since changing the subsonic filter to 5Hz the sonic signature is almost identical to me driving the same sub with my Crown K1.

I also have a 15” Focal Sub that is powered by a Redgum plate amp, and the sonic signature is almost identical to the Tumult, BTW this sonic signature is only based on subjective listening at low levels with my ear close to the drivers.

The Tumult & Hypex combination was a little disappointing sonically for music until I lowered the subsonic filter, I think that the subsonic filter has a big bearing on the Sonics of these high output drivers as opposed to the damping factor.

[david teltschik]

I have to agree with you on that point. The so called rumble filters on some of these freaking amps start way up close to, or at, 20 Hz. This is the exact stuff we want coming out of our subs. It is frustrating I agree. That is why I am looking closely at the adire ADA amps.....they have a subsonic filter centered at 2Hz. But if I may ask, how did you go about modifying your HS500 to get a lower Fc of the rumble filter? Do tell.....I would be VERY curious about that myself......I like the specs on some of those Hypex amps. Does anyone know if the A750 or A1200 have rumble filters at all? This driver probably doesn't need one anyway...lol.

[david teltschik]

How does the HS500 modified to the lower Fc compare with the crown K1 combination at your seating position? I would imagine that the crown would have better cone control, but is it noticable from where you sit? What EQ are you running with the crown setup...any?

[Spearmint]

I have to agree with you on that point. The so called rumble filters on some of these freaking amps start way up close to, or at, 20 Hz. This is the exact stuff we want coming out of our subs. It is frustrating I agree. That is why I am looking closely at the adire ADA amps.....they have a subsonic filter centered at 2Hz. But if I may ask, how did you go about modifying your HS500 to get a lower Fc of the rumble filter? Do tell.....I would be VERY curious about that myself......I like the specs on some of those Hypex amps. Does anyone know if the A750 or A1200 have rumble filters at all? This driver probably doesn't need one anyway...lol.

Hypex are a great company, all you do is ask and they send you the info.

I have the component layout, and schematic of the board in question, which BTW is very easy to remove. All you do is replace 4x resistors to the values that Hypex give you.

The Redgum amp is also around 2Hz, and the Crown K1 is 8Hz, this is why I asked for the subsonic filter to be around the 5Hz.

For me the system for music is fantastic, and for HT well a match made in heaven…

The other thing I was a little worried about was overdriving the HS500 with such a low filter on some of those movies with lots of subsonics, but so far no problems.

[David R.]

I did stop in at a cabinet maker's for an estimate, but he hasn't returmed any calls - It might just be time to by a router and learn how to do it myself...) I'll be creating something very similar to the AS-15

Bent, If your interested, i would be willing to offer my services to build your sub (For a fee) to what ever level of completion you need.. Just thought i would mention it.. I believe andrew has seen my work in person, and other pictures are available..

[Spearmint]

How does the HS500 modified to the lower Fc compare with the crown K1 combination at your seating position? I would imagine that the crown would have better cone control, but is it noticable from where you sit? What EQ are you running with the crown setup...any?

Obviously the K1 has more dynamics/headroom with some of these movies with bass heavy soundtracks; although both amps make the Tumult do the great dance routine in "Black Hawk Down", the HS500 would only do this once it had been modified.

I would say the Crown certainly gives the sub more authority (but not by a huge margin), and if it were my only sub then I would probably stay with the Crown, since I use 5x subs in my room headroom is not a problem. Although IMO 700+ watts is more than enough for the Tumult in most instances, the Crown can be a bit of overkill, I just have it here collecting dust so it is good to play with.

I use the same EQ for all my subs, that is a Behringer DCX2496, which I use to calibrate each sub, i.e. delays, and phase adjustments, and basic EQ to combat any major room modes, and then in front of the DCX I use a Behringer DEQ2496 to fix overall room modes.

[Bent]

David, you mean that you wouldn't be willing to do it for me for free? :W

I may take you up on the offer, I have been waffling to and fro about how I want to finish it, I keep thinking maple will look nice, but if it looks nice and still sounds like crap then all the effort will be mis-spent. I'll draw up some plans/dimensions and see what you'd charge for a "flat pack".

I don't have the means to do those larger cuts, as the table saw I have is quite small. However I could do some cool finishing teqniques that have been running around in my head, including the use of a heat shrink fabric that is used extensivly in the RC aircraft hobby.

[David R.]

^ when your ready you can email me at: dreddy@mb.sympatico.ca Will try and work something out. I would charge materials straight, and a little for labour.. i generally work for cheap. LOL

a AS-15 looks interesting, and challanging. No problems with a flat pack (I assume just supply of cut pieces by this).. Only concern is with the slightly more complex port & spacer shown in the AS-15, some of the cutting/alignment needs to be done on the fly possibly, i might be wrong on that.

As for finishing it and having it not turn out.. you should be able to test the enclosure before finishing.. If a little extra time is spent in planning that is. A "test" port can be used as well, instead of using your aeroport and possibly ruining it.

any way.. Email me and we can discuss.

[Bent]

Thanks David - I would imagine that the port holes through the front baffle as well as the mirror image spacers would require a complete port tube as well as trial fit of the flares as assembly took place. I'll be in touch, but maybe I'll drag this part of the converstation to the ported BP 1503 thread so as not to hijack it.
We now return to your regularly scheuled programming.

[david teltschik]

I actually have a chance to pick up a crown K1 still under warranty for $550...think I'm going to swipe that up and use it for my new sub project.....that should make a nice sounding set up.....lol. Does anyone think that the crown K1's high pass filter might be too high at 8Hz? I'm thinking that should do just about right.....but wanted others opinions. I see that others use a 2Hz high pass filter.

I'm leaning towards just using my Ref50's internal EQ for the subwoofer. It's fully adjustable like most sub amps. Running the sub crossed over at about 35Hz shouldn't need too much EQ.....most of the EQ would probably need doing on the main speakers I have in my setup anyways.

[david teltschik]

hell...i can't deside between something like the ADA1200 or the crown with EQ......dang it! I'm leaning ADA1200 because it'll be an all in one sub....which I like....SIGHS.

I need to just get off the fence already!

[Spearmint]

If anyone has the Hypex HS500 or HS1000 plate amps and wants to change the subsonic settings I have 2x one for 14Hz and the other 5Hz, both amps use the same board. PM me here if you want the information.