Seas Excel Coax!

[Jonasz]

Just saw that Seas is releasing a new Excel-line coax. Seems pretty interesting, hopefully it will be followed by a W22 variant. :B

They're also hinting about an upcoming subwoofer! :P

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&limit=1&li mitstart=0

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=234&Item id=221

[David G]

That is great to see! Hope its the start of a trend.
Pity about the terrible sensitivity though. They need a lighter version for mid-high frequency usage that can be partnered with a good 10' or 12".

[dlr]

Just saw that Seas is releasing a new Excel-line coax. Seems pretty interesting, hopefully it will be followed by a W22 variant. :B

Looking at the Seas response curves it's nothing I'd consider unless I needed a coax for a small space and I was willing to spend a fair bit for it. The tweeter response is exactly as one would expect from just dropping a tweeter into a standard geometry driver. Horrible. It's audible, not just a little bit, either. The linear distortion of the tweeter created by the horn effect (it can't in any real way be called a waveguide) of the woofer is significant.

When I measured the tweeter pulled from an Insignia coax, I was surprised at just how linear it is on its own. Put it or any tweeter into a standard cone and you've got nothing but ragged response.

Unless you really need the better integrated off-axis response, it's a non-starter to me. The Insignia is good cost/performance. I doubt that this will be the case for the Seas as it won't be cheap.

Just my opinion of course.

Dave

[Jonasz]

I'm pretty sure Seas wouldn't make a driver that sucks. Looking at Seas they're, IMHO, one of the more "responsible" drivermanufacturers out there (unlike TB for example where you have to take the official responses with a boatload of salt). :W I'm sure you can make a very nice sounding system with this unit, but it's probably not gonna be cheap! :cry:

I hope this coax-thing will be a new trend with some upcoming larger mids... :P

[tktran]

Responsible LOL.

What about the Exotic F4/F8 range.

It's all about increasing marketshare and catering for all...

[Dennis H]

It would be interesting to play with felt and/or foam to see if you could smooth out the tweeter response. Bjorn from Seas said it helps but he couldn't go into details because they were doing something like that in a custom driver for a manufacturer.

Possibilities:
Felt near the tweeter -- the throat of the horn.
Felt near the surround -- the mouth of the horn.
A reticulated foam plug like Earl Geddes uses.

You'd have to kludge up a way to mount it so it wasn't touching the moving cone.

[dlr]

I'm pretty sure Seas wouldn't make a driver that sucks. Looking at Seas they're, IMHO, one of the more "responsible" drivermanufacturers out there (unlike TB for example where you have to take the official responses with a boatload of salt). :W I'm sure you can make a very nice sounding system with this unit, but it's probably not gonna be cheap! :cry:

I hope this coax-thing will be a new trend with some upcoming larger mids... :P

I'm sure it doesn't suck, too. It's a case of band-for-the-buck. The ratio is not likely to be good for this one unless there is a specific need, partly addressed in their own description.

I believe that their SPL curves are accurate. That's the basis for my comments. The Insignia, much like the much older Seas coax, measures very similarly for the tweeter. The tweeter is what sounds bad in these things. I seriously doubt that it will be better in the new Seas unit. Again, the raggedness is essentially unavoidable as will be its audibility.

Dave

[dlr]

It would be interesting to play with felt and/or foam to see if you could smooth out the tweeter response. Bjorn from Seas said it helps but he couldn't go into details because they were doing something like that in a custom driver for a manufacturer.

Possibilities:
Felt near the tweeter -- the throat of the horn.
Felt near the surround -- the mouth of the horn.
A reticulated foam plug like Earl Geddes uses.

You'd have to kludge up a way to mount it so it wasn't touching the moving cone.

I've tried. Case three holds the only possibility of being remotely effective. You only need to look at the KEF designs to see what is required of a dynamic driver coax short of a foam plug and even in that case, I'm sure that Geddes would certainly affirm the need to design the midwoofer "waveguide" to better accomodate the tweeter as well.

Dave

[TacoD]

Price of these units is 202 euro/ piece

[Amphiprion]

How much is that in USD? Nevermind, it will be different tomorrow anyway :cry:

[AJINFLA]

You only need to look at the KEF designs to see what is required of a dynamic driver coax short of a foam plug and even in that case, I'm sure that Geddes would certainly affirm the need to design the midwoofer "waveguide" to better accomodate the tweeter as well.

Agreed. This can't represent the best Seas can do. A real :scratchhead:
Oh well..

cheers,

AJ

[jkrutke]

I see that Seas didn't pay any attention to the dome-cone interface again. I'd pretty much call this a bad product at a bad price. I'd guess that their response curve is accurate... unfortunately.

I'm not looking forward to the subwoofer they hinted at either. Anyone care to guess the price? Place your bets now. I say it will probably cost $300 and be outperformed by something from someplace else* at half that price.

*edit Oct 3, 2008: removed the word "Asia" because I really don't care the least bit where speakers come from, but I do care about their cost as much as their performance.

[Jonasz]

I see that Seas didn't pay any attention to the dome-cone interface again. I'd pretty much call this a bad product at a bad price. I'd guess that their response curve is accurate... unfortunately.

I'm not looking forward to the subwoofer they hinted at either. Anyone care to guess the price? Place your bets now. I say it will probably cost $300 and be outperformed by something from Asia at half that price.

Well, aren't all European, Japanese and US made stuff overpriced nowadays? The biggest reason Seas, for example, have risen so much during the last year is due to the Mickey Mouse value of the american dollar. The good thing for you "over there" though is that it's been rising (despite the shaky financial situation) with 10-20% compared to the Scandinavian currents over the last couple of months, so maybe Seas and Scan-Speak will be better priced in the future!? :P

[TacoD]

I'm not looking forward to the subwoofer they hinted at either. Anyone care to guess the price? Place your bets now.

More expensive than Asia

[jkrutke]

If you do not support your own economy then all companies go to Asia.

Good point. Let's not turn this into another political flame fest though. I'll edit my post before it gets quoted again.

[norcad]

Im from Norway and of course love Seas speakers. In the case of coax, I agree with jkrutke.
But all you american people must understand one thing; Seas has not rised their prices, here in Norway, like all the rest of europe the price is just the same today as it was a year a go.
That the USD isnt worth a sh** anymore, isnt Seas or any other europeen manufactors fault. :M

Something I dont understand is, who buy this coax drivers? Why is Seas making a new one, that seemes to be the same shit as before, if they dont sell them?

[TacoD]

Are those Seas coax chassis not sold to companies like "Audiodata"?

[tktran]

I dunno. It looks like a premium part to me, but only average performance.

Far behind what the likes of KEF can do...

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/kef_2012.htm

[Irwin AR]

Seas Excel Coax Tested !

Yep..its all there with extra goodies for those who loves playing
with frd & zma files

Also with RS100 variants

One of my favourite german sites.

German

English translated

Have a good time!

[cotdt]

Looking at the Seas response curves it's nothing I'd consider unless I needed a coax for a small space and I was willing to spend a fair bit for it.

Seas often puts very ragged responses in their datasheets but the driver measures much, much more linear in independant tests. Witness the Seas Exotics, which look horrible in the datasheets but turns out they have quite a smooth response.

[dlr]

Seas often puts very ragged responses in their datasheets but the driver measures much, much more linear in independant tests. Witness the Seas Exotics, which look horrible in the datasheets but turns out they have quite a smooth response.

That's not been my experience. I've always found Seas and Scan-Speak drivers to test very close to supplied curves. Even the ragged ones such as Excels with their extreme breakup.

Dave

[davey_m]

For this coaxial the tweeter will measure smoother off-axis. The big dip we see on-axis is rim diffraction, which disappears off-axis.

[dlr]

For this coaxial the tweeter will measure smoother off-axis. The big dip we see on-axis is rim diffraction, which disappears off-axis.

I have my doubts about that as it's far from an optimally shaped waveguide for the tweeter. Simple coaxials such as this one show changes in the off-axis, but they are far from smooth off-axis. There's nothing in the geometry that indicates any attempt to provide a proper waveguide for the tweeter. It's a standard small mid-woofer, nothing more, and as zaph said earlier, the tweeter-woofer interface has not been addressed completely as well, if much at all. One need only look at a recent KEF coaxial to see what must be done in this regard. It appears to be just another version of sticking a tweeter into a mid-woofer vent opening, although the mid-woofer is better than the typical one employed.

It would be a simple matter to include off-axis measurements in the documentation provided. It's telling that it is not.

Dave

[Jonasz]

Well, there's off axis responses provided in the link from Irwin AR.

[Davey]

Dave,

There isn't any claim from Seas that the woofer cone is a waveguide for the tweeter. Even if they were to attempt it the diameter is far too small. The claim is simply that the "tweeter is integrated with the woofer to form a 'point-source'." Also, Seas has included all their normal off-axis measurements. Look more closely at the data sheet.

Anyways, on-axis measurements are going to be deceiving, to say the least. I've done quite a bit of fiddling with the T18 coax driver. As soon as the microphone is moved even a few degrees off-axis things look much better.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Dennis H]

Well, there's off axis responses provided in the link from Irwin AR.

Hmmmm..... They aren't labeled but, if we assume blue is on axis and red is 15 degrees off, 15 is where we see that big null at 8K.

[dlr]

Thanks for the measurement post, Jonasz.

I haven't gone back to the Seas site recently, I didn't recall there being off-axis data. Looking at the graphs in Jonasz post, I could live with the woofer, but that tweeter response is all over the place, just as it is with the Insignia I experimented with. The tweeter is so badly loaded by any standard driver, small or large, if it's not a true waveguide, evidence in those graphs above. A so-called "point source" is not an optimal situation if the "waveguide" formed by the midwoofer has the impact it does in these and most coaxials. It's contaminated with diffraction effects that are very audible. The only real reason I can see to use one of these would be if space limitations dictated it (maybe a ceiling unit found in stores?).

The only reason that the Insignia is worth anything is as a bang-for-the-buck system. It can be improved at low cost keeping the total cost low. It can't be made to sound as good as most decent 2-ways with separate drivers, despite the coaxial (not coincident, there's still some offset) configuration. There is no single axis on which one can create a reasonably flat response. The overall power response around the crossover and above fluctuates too much, even if some single axis could be made flat. I just see it as too much money for too limited results. I would have expected better from a new driver. Just my opinion.

Dave