New 3-way coming up.

[Jed]

I've got the Accuton C79s coming Monday. Just ordered the Aurasound 10" woofers, so they should be here next Wednesday. Hopefully they are in stock. Will use the MHT12 by Visaton for duties around 3-3.5K on up. Really like that tweeter.

My last effort with 8955a woofer, eton 4-300, and MHT12 was very nice- Probably the best speaker I've made- due to a crossover that just seemed to click. I just want to see what I can do with some different drivers with greater potential. For cabinet details go to my 8955a, 12M, HDS 3-way thread. https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23916



Jed

[augerpro]

So what do you to accomplish with these new drivers that you couldn't with the old ones. I mean damn, the 8955, 12M, and HDS are REALLY nice 8O . At least to me.

I'd be really curious to see any measurements you have for the 8955 and the Visiton tweeter. I've been thinking of picking up the KE25SC but I've already got too many drivers laying around waiting for home :rofl:

[Jed]

I hope to achieve speaker enlightenment. :B

[augerpro]

:rofl:


I dig it ;b>

[cotdt]

is the C79 the one now renamed the C90-6-79? the accuton part numbers are so confusing.

[Jed]

Yeah, it's the one used in the Avalon Opus et. al. C2 79-6 is the old part number.

[tyler]

Have you reviewed this thread Jed?

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23683

When I begin my 3 way design I was going to bring this thread back from the dead.

[Jed]

Have you reviewed this thread Jed?

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23683

When I begin my 3 way design I was going to bring this thread back from the dead.

Yes, I've got a bunch of posts in that thread and it will be interesting to see what JonM. has time to build. In the mean time I plan on retrofitting my cabinet with the new drivers this week and I'll use a C79 bandpass crossover topology similar to Marc H.'s Opus clone.

I looked at the Scan Speak 10" Revelators but they either required a huge box or had dips in their response similar to the Usher 8" I'm using now. I need to investigate if that FR dip results in the slightly warm characteristic I'm hearing on some female vocal recordings.

What drivers are you planning on using?

[tyler]

I have selected the C90 and the C24 for the mid\high duties. I have not made a decision on the woofers yet.

[Jed]

I have selected the C90 and the C24 for the mid\high duties. I have not made a decision on the woofers yet.

I hope you bought C90 last year because nobody has the Accuton in stock and they have no clue when they're going to ship. Madisound has had an order since September! I was lucky and found sonic craft had a few C79s.

As for a woofer in your system, I'm not sure if there is anything out there that is better than the aurasound- as far as specs go.

Jed

[tyler]

Yes, I purchased them a while back. :T
The C90 is very hard to come by right now. :M
I am considering the Aura woofers. Another woofer that I am investigating is Skaaning (Audio Technology). Actually, Eton is what I would prefer though. But this will depend on when and if they replace the 12-680 with a new version that has a stronger Neo motor.
BTW, nice job on your construction.

[Jed]

Yes, I purchased them a while back. :T
The C90 is very hard to come by right now. :M
I am considering the Aura woofers. Another woofer that I am investigating is Skaaning (Audio Technology). Actually, Eton is what I would prefer though. But this will depend on when and if they replace the 12-680 with a new version that has a stronger Neo motor.
BTW, nice job on your construction.

Thank you and I have heard the new Eton's will not have the NEO motors. This info is from someone over at diyaudio from a thread I started over there.

Looks like there is a delay on Eton's as well. I emailed Madisound a few weeks ago and they said Eton has nothing new/ready.

[tyler]

Yes, I think the talk regarding neo motors could just be an assumption due to the speaker manufactures that Eton in fact is building the neo drivers for.

The Skaaning woofers do have impressive specs. These are not cheap but though. Only future testing will be the judge on that.

I might have access to some Eton's that I can try out if I want to. They are used but in great condition. Depending on whether or not my friend will need them for his future projects, I may be able to purchase them for less than the Aura's. :B

[Dennis H]

Skaaning woofers.....

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/

Scroll down to:

What does it all mean? Well, in a complete shocker, the $700 woofer outperforms the $130 woofer. Not by much, however, and the lead disappears above 90 Hz. Both are excellent performers, and we're basically comparing goodness at a price that's a steal with greatness at a price that's outrageous.

[tyler]

Skaaning woofers.....

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/

Scroll down to:

Dennins, If you could obtain the Eton's at the same cost as the Aura's, which woofer would you use?

[Dennis H]

Dennis, If you could obtain the Eton's at the same cost as the Aura's, which woofer would you use?

No personal experience with either. Jon used to be an Eton fanboy and now he likes the Auras. Take that for what its worth (almost nothing )

[Jed]

Yes, I think the talk regarding neo motors could just be an assumption due to the speaker manufactures that Eton in fact is building the neo drivers for.

The Skaaning woofers do have impressive specs. These are not cheap but though. Only future testing will be the judge on that.

I might have access to some Eton's that I can try out if I want to. They are used but in great condition. Depending on whether or not my friend will need them for his future projects, I may be able to purchase them for less than the Aura's. :B

TacoD like's the Eton 12s very much. Which Etons and how many per side as the Eton is only 6mm XMAX and the Aura is almost double that.

[tyler]

TacoD like's the Eton 12s very much. Which Etons and how many per side as the Eton is only 6mm XMAX and the Aura is almost double that.

12-680 Hex's. I will be using 2 per side. I am not sure if I can get my hands on them yet though. Besides, 2 Aura's per side would be really tempting considering there performance.

[Rick Craig]

I've got the Accuton C79s coming Monday. Just ordered the Aurasound 10" woofers, so they should be here next Wednesday. Hopefully they are in stock. Will use the MHT12 by Visaton for duties around 3-3.5K on up. Really like that tweeter.

My last effort with 8955a woofer, eton 4-300, and MHT12 was very nice- Probably the best speaker I've made- due to a crossover that just seemed to click. I just want to see what I can do with some different drivers with greater potential. For cabinet details go to my 8955a, 12M, HDS 3-way thread. https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23916

Jed

Nice combination of drivers. I worked with the C79 a few years ago and it's an interesting mid.

[Jed]

Nice combination of drivers. I worked with the C79 a few years ago and it's an interesting mid.

Thanks Rick,

I've noticed you have a few speakers with the Aura 10" so perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting a box volume and tuning frequency for it. Its TS parameters suggest a small box in unibox, so I'm hoping 60L will be OK tuned to say 28HZ or so.

[TacoD]

12-680 Hex's. I will be using 2 per side. I am not sure if I can get my hands on them yet though. Besides, 2 Aura's per side would be really tempting considering there performance.

The 12-680 is very nice, and if you use two per side you have enough spl... Looking at the FR / distortion graphs of the Aura woofers in the German magazine HobbyHifi shows that these are real bass units with low sensitivity. Distortion is very low, but the breakup is very severe (but can be handled with a proper x-over).

I think both the Aura and the Eton are good woofers, the Aura has the better motor while the Eton has the best cone.

[TacoD]

Thanks Rick,

I've noticed you have a few speakers with the Aura 10" so perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting a box volume and tuning frequency for it. Its TS parameters suggest a small box in unibox, so I'm hoping 60L will be OK tuned to say 28HZ or so.

I am using the Scanspeak 26W/8867T00, which has even lower distortion than the Aura 10". It costs the same as the Aura overhere... I am using 65 liter closed box.

[Jed]

The 12-680 is very nice, and if you use two per side you have enough spl... Looking at the FR / distortion graphs of the Aura woofers in the German magazine HobbyHifi shows that these are real bass units with low sensitivity. Distortion is very low, but the breakup is very severe (but can be handled with a proper x-over).

I think both the Aura and the Eton are good woofers, the Aura has the better motor while the Eton has the best cone.

Which model Aura 10" was tested, what was the sensitivity, and at what frequency was the breakup? If you don't mind me asking.

Thanks Taco,

Jed

[tyler]

I think both the Aura and the Eton are good woofers, the Aura has the better motor while the Eton has the best cone.

I share the same thoughts. If the Eton's had a stronger motor it would be interesting to see the performance, there cones are excellent. The Aura's NRT motors are there strong point for sure. I would also like to know what 10" Aura was tested......

[Rick Craig]

Thanks Rick,

I've noticed you have a few speakers with the Aura 10" so perhaps you wouldn't mind suggesting a box volume and tuning frequency for it. Its TS parameters suggest a small box in unibox, so I'm hoping 60L will be OK tuned to say 28HZ or so.

How about a nearfield measurement with your tuning and box volume? Keep in mind that your series inductors will alter the "Q". I can model that for you after importing the nearfield measurement.

[Jed]

How about a nearfield measurement with your tuning and box volume? Keep in mind that your series inductors will alter the "Q". I can model that for you after importing the nearfield measurement.

Good point about the series inductors- I forgot to put that in my simulation. I dont have my Auras yet so no measurements till this next weekend.

Taco got me thinking about Scan Speak 10s, so I picked up a pair of 8565-01s to try out too. Too many speakers too little space/time. :T

[TacoD]

They tested NS10-513-4A 10" and NS10-794-4A 10". IIRC the FR is very alike, but time domain (CSD) at low frequencies is better for the 794. While midband is better for the 513.

The 794 has two major breakups at ~3800Hz and a smaller one at 10 kHz. The 513 has only one @ 2100Hz.

SPL for both is 87 dB, but this is at 2.87 V. (4 ohm load) and have a usable range up to 400 Hz.

[Jed]

Image not available

C79 Arrived today. Aura NS10 513 will be here tomorrow.

For now I'm testing MHT12, C79, Usher 8955a
Then MHT12, C79, Scan Speak 25W 8565-01
Then MHT12, C79, Aura NS10 513

[mazurek]

I'm eager to see the results.

[Jed]

I'm eager to see the results.

I haven't been too good finalizing designs, but I think I've come to the breaking point. Let me know what combination interests you. [edit: I can finalize for everyone but me it now seems!!!]

Some things that I've learned along the way. I really like the MHT12 tweeter but it can only go down to 3.5K-3K. I've used it with 4-300 up that high, but 4-300 likes a crossover a bit lower- hence a compromise. I've tried the Exclusive 881 up to 3K, but in my opinion it didn't have the same magic the MHT12 and eton combination had.

Tried Accuton C12, really liked that tweeter- but I ended up ruining one during testing. My soundcard reset to highest output level. Good thing I got them used at a cheap price.

Have used Hiquphon OW1 tweeter, don't know why people love that tweeter so much, I think they are good but not a miracle or anything like that. I probably crossed too low around 2.2 LR4 to SEAS W15CH. It goes on and on and on. Each time I learn more, and wish I could go back and experiment more, but I only can move forward.

Here are some drivers I've used:

W22, W15CH, OW1 300HZLR2, 2.2K LR4 W22 in 50 L tuned to 30HZ was weak in bass. Great drums but harsh on female vocal. 3rd order distortion peaks could be to blame
RS225, W15CH, OW1, same crossover as above but I like the RS225 bass. W22, slightly cleaner lower midrange
RS225, W15LY, OW1. Never really fully liked the W15LY. Something just was off. There was a noise I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I thought it was the room, but no other system I had did this. Preferred the 881.

Image not available

RS225, 881, C12- This was a nice system and I preferred the C12 dynamics to the OW1, 881 just was missing something. Measurements suggested a bit of a dip in FR at 2.5k- that could have been it.

Eton 8-472, Eton 4-300 pair with Focal. Designed for a friend. Awesome system. Explosive dynamics and clean sound. Here, Eton 4-300 is comfortable at 2.2K LR4. Bass was a bit boomy

Image not available

SEAS CA18RNX, Eton 4-300, MHT12 crossed at 400LR2, and 3KLR4. The woofer is nice but no where near an 8" obviously. It does suprisingly well. Love the Eton 4-300 and MHT12 together. SEAS 7" a nice woofer for small room, but in hifi, a compromise for real bass.

Eton 7-375, Eton 4-300, ER4 Weak bass output but a nice midrange. ER4 not very extended in top octaves- always sounded rolled off to me even though measurements suggested differently. C12 and MHT12 are better in applications I used them.

Image not available

Usher 8955a, Eton 4-300, MHT12. Wow, this system is the best I've made so far. I wonder what a 10" woofer will get me? I like sealed box bass, I've decided.

Images not available

I've also designed a bunch of 2 ways for friends and family.

CA15 and 20TFF Seas. I like this little tweeter and it has VERY good distortion specs according to KT magazine. Crossed around 2.5K. Very smooth top end but not the best resolution for midrange.

CA15 and 27 TDC. Rising response on the tweeter was cut down. Crossed at 2K I like this one better than above but it lacked the nice silky highs the 3/4" dome above had.

Images not available

RS125 and MBquart buyout crossed at 2.3K. Suprising bass for this little woofer, and the MBquart tweeters were a steal. No magic happening here though, just decent clean sound.

I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting and maybe I'll add some pictures of the systems as they changed- just so I can keep track of it all.

[mazurek]

I have much less experience than yourself, but I believe that my goals are somewhat similar.

I started out with a simple two way plus sub, with Peerless 830875+Seas 27TDFC. The design is somewhat simple, and was built for education and to try to jump into hi-fi without sacrificing the easygoing nature of my cheap consumer jbl towers. By the way, I was playing around with the trim-pots on the tweeter level, I think your TDC system might have been too quiet off axis if made flat directly on axis.

Current System

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Next, I played around with electronics for a year or two. I just finished documenting all the revisions and parts lists updates I made in completing the final version of my amplifier project. My goal was to make two 4 channel amplifiers, with some fancy xlr inputs and speakon outputs. The amps have a place for my current revision active crossover, or can be connected directly to the balanced input inputs.

Images not available

Now that I have the design finalized, and one amp built, I need to build the other one for me (and I'm making two for my dad). But the point is, now I have a little time to work on actually building some new speakers.

I have nearly finished making two bass bins with 2x RS265 HF each. I think I have come to the conclusion that any driver reaching real deep can't go all that high. In free air testing, the RS265 third order distortion starts going high compared to my midwoofer by 120Hz. This is responsible for some of my interest in the Aura 10's, I'm wondering if they can go a little higher.

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I'm working to see if I can stay with a deep bass sealed three way by using a horn loaded compression tweeter to match a 7" midrange. We'll see how that goes, it presents its own design tradeoffs. If that doesn't pan out, I was contemplating moving to a three way like what you are designing, with a woofer up to a couple hundred hertz, and a real mid. This would deal with power response a bit better than 7"->1" tweeter.

I'm interested in the tradeoffs you will find in finding an ideal 10" woofer. Also, I'm interested in the choice of midrange and the accuton, which looks to be an ideal mate for a tweeter in terms of power response, and a forum brand favorite.

Another possibility I've been considering is something like Dayton 15"HO -> B&C 10" Midwoofer -> unspecified mid and tweeter. Design wise, it would look roughly like a three way + sub.

Sorry mods, if the pics are to big, I will get rid of them. Luckily all this testing and construction takes years for me, because I can't afford to go any faster.

[Dennis H]

Jed: ;x(

[Jed]

I'm interested in the tradeoffs you will find in finding an ideal 10" woofer. Also, I'm interested in the choice of midrange and the accuton, which looks to be an ideal mate for a tweeter in terms of power response, and a forum brand favorite.

Tradeoffs as I see it before any tests.

Aura NS10-513- low impedance and only 87DB. Perhaps can't go high enough for C79 crossed around 350-400hzLR2. I think it can. Might have to try a steeper crossover slope to deal with cone breakup of the Aura.

Scan Speak 25W-

Most response plots I've seen show an impedance blip around 600HZ and a dip in FR. Will be interesting to see how this effects total response.

Just in case the Aura doesn't work out with the C79 I bought a pair of Usher 8948a 7" mids. They appear to have the lowest distortion of any 7" I've ever seen. I'll just add that to the project stock.

Gut feeling that MHT12, C79 and Scan 25W is going to be a smash hit. Maybe the Aura will suprise me and play high enough. I know the 25W can, that is proven in many other designs.

[augerpro]

Ooooh, 8948A. Are you able to do THD testing? I would love to see it compared to the 8945 series.

[Jed]

Ooooh, 8948A. Are you able to do THD testing? I would love to see it compared to the 8945 series.

Wish I could but don't have the software to do accurate THD testing. Look at the specs though on the usher website. Which, from what I recall, align with Zaph's tests of the 8945a and 8945p. If the trends remain consistent/accurate- 8948a looks like a winner. Plus they are onsale right now so that helps justify it! I guess I could always send a pair to Zaph if he wants to test them.

Jed

[Jed]

Aura NS10-513 came in today. Very impressive looking woofers and the magnet is larger than I expected.

Images not available

[mazurek]

I'm not sure what type of measurement system you use, but it is not very difficult to make the distortion testing wave illustrated in:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#G

I think this is what MarkK uses for most of his tests. I have a matlab script which makes these test tones. I don't know if your measurement software will let you use arbitrary wave files or something. Otherwise I guess you'll just have at your disposal harmonic distortion measurements from pure tones.

I'll be curious to see how high you take those. Even if you don't have HD testing, you have very high quality references.

[Jim Holtz]

Wow!

Hi Jed,

You have the basis for a killer speaker. Very, very nice! :T I have been following your posts and know that you really like the Visaton planar tweeter. Have you heard the ceramic dome they offer. That also looks like a great match with the Accutons.

Take a road trip this fall and bring them to the Iowa DIY event.

Jim

[Jed]

I'm not sure what type of measurement system you use, but it is not very difficult to make the distortion testing wave illustrated in:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#G

I think this is what MarkK uses for most of his tests. I have a matlab script which makes these test tones. I don't know if your measurement software will let you use arbitrary wave files or something. Otherwise I guess you'll just have at your disposal harmonic distortion measurements from pure tones.

I'll be curious to see how high you take those. Even if you don't have HD testing, you have very high quality references.

I think Rick Craig is taking the Aura 10" up to at least 350HZ without any problems.

I'm using SpeakerWorkshop for crossover design and measuring. I'll have to look into your suggestions for distortion tests.

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

You have the basis for a killer speaker. Very, very nice! :T I have been following your posts and know that you really like the Visaton planar tweeter. Have you heard the ceramic dome they offer. That also looks like a great match with the Accutons.

Take a road trip this fall and bring them to the Iowa DIY event.

Jim

Thanks Jim,

You're right about getting out to Iowa. I really should get out next time.

As for the Visaton Ke25, I haven't heard them yet, but the MHT12 for me is like Fountek is for you (I imagine). It would be logical to try an Accuton or Visaton Ceramic tweeter but I'm open to less conventional combinations. I'm trying to keep at least one variable, the tweeter, constant.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim,

You're right about getting out to Iowa. I really should get out next time.

As for the Visaton Ke25, I haven't heard them yet, but the MHT12 for me is like Fountek is for you (I imagine). It would be logical to try an Accuton or Visaton Ceramic tweeter but I'm open to less conventional combinations. I'm trying to keep at least one variable, the tweeter, constant.

Ahh yes... We all have our favorites. I've never heard any ceramic tweeters which was why I was curious. I have heard Accuton cone drivers and was extremely impressed, however. They are very, very nice drivers.

I hope you can make it out this fall to the DY event. I think there are going to be some nice speakers there from the sound of it.

Jim

[Jed]

Ahh yes... We all have our favorites. I've never heard any ceramic tweeters which was why I was curious. I have heard Accuton cone drivers and was extremely impressed, however. They are very, very nice drivers.

I hope you can make it out this fall to the DY event. I think there are going to be some nice speakers there from the sound of it.

Jim

So what do you predict will be the winning combination Jim, 3-way with Aura or Scan Speak?

:B

[Jim Holtz]

So what do you predict will be the winning combination Jim, 3-way with Aura or Scan Speak?

:B

Jed,

I'm not sure. I've not heard the Aura but it certainly tests extremely well. I have heard the Scans and they are excellent.

I've heard rumors that there could be Accuton designs and Visaton designs in the unlimited class. Of course I'll have the Statements there. Who knows what else will show up.

Regardless, it'll be a whole lot of fun! :T I hope you can join us.

Jim

[tyler]

So what do you predict will be the winning combination Jim, 3-way with Aura or Scan Speak?

:B

Jed, I believe you purchase both woofers? So, we should expect your evaluations on both?

[TacoD]

I think Rick Craig is taking the Aura 10" up to at least 350HZ without any problems.

I'm using SpeakerWorkshop for crossover design and measuring. I'll have to look into your suggestions for distortion tests.

HobbyHifi -> 400 Hz upper limit. The distortion is fine, I wrote that before < 1% even @ low frequencies.