Doing it all - HT/Music and a tough room

[Eric_C]

This is going to be long

This started out with a plan to build a couple of subs and eventually replace my Deftech 7002's with some Line Array's.

I enjoyed my setup for HT and for Hi-Res mutli-channel music but never cared for it in 2 channel. The reasons for this are explained here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23643

Now that I have that figured out it throws all of my plans into a tail spin and I thought it best to go at it from a whole room approach than trying to do piecemeal things together.

I'm really hoping someone can give me some advice and direction on redoing my entire setup. I want to do fronts/sub first, most likely near the same time, meaning once I finish the subs I'll work on the fronts. Center/Rears will come later but I want to keep them in mind.

Here is what I currently have:

Yamaha RX-V2600
Yamaha C950 DVD Player
Outlaw Audio ICBM
DefTech 7002 fronts w/ matching center/rears

There are some things about the Deftech's I really like, then there are some things I don't. No fault of the speaker, I just chose the wrong speaker for my room. The bipolar doesn't work well. They do have good imaging though the more I listen to them in 2 channel. I keep looking behind me to listen if my rears are on.

My goal is to gain clarity and separation. I have what I consider to be a good ear and can hear the minor details and want them to be emphasized. I want "big" sound. Right now I'm listening to Dead Can Dance's Wake. In some of the tracks I hear the voice and I hear the instruments but there seems to be this feeling that there could be more separation and detail to the voice where they become separate to the ear and not muddled in one another. I'd also like more low end punch which was the idea behind doing my own subs versus the subs built into the DefTech's.

The room, and I just measured, is a bit smaller than I thought. I went off the realtors page. It is 17.5x20 with 18' ceilings. I sit exactly 13.5 feet from the TV and the speakers flank both sides. The rears are equidistant to my listening position, about 2' outboard of each front. It opens into a foyer which is about 6' wide and extends the room to 37ft from door to side wall. It opens into an upstairs area that makes it a total of 24ft across and the ceiling slops at the midpoint to about 12'.

Here are some pics of the room. Sorry for the brightness, the room is far more mellow but my wife's camera is BRIGHT, its really not Ronald McDonald's Red We just had our windows replaced and hadn't gotten around to painting the trim and putting up the window treatments.


Images not available


You can see the problem with the room and the love seat.

I was intrigued by the dipoles and line arrays and we want something that looks nice along with something that is going to be superior to what we have. I am not sure if the Dipoles work well with subs, nor do I know if they work well for HT.

We do want this also for HT and I will look into a dedicated 2 channel setup later on.

Budget...well I had planned on about $1100 for subs and that seems to get me pretty close to 2 TC-2000 SonoSubs with a EP2500 or Carver 1800 amp. Is that still the best way to go?

Dipoles or Line Array's? My original choice was LA based on the post I linked to above but now that I've straightened that out I am reconsidering if I need them.

My Line Array's I figured were going to run me near 3K, some of that offset by the sale of my current speakers.

Music is #1, HT is a close Forum I will be listening to more 2 channel but want to be able to create matching centers and rears. For the time being they will be driven by my Yamaha but I'll be going with a separate amp and pre/pro at somepoint in time. I do not want the Yamaha to be the limiting factor. If I can build speaker A and speaker B but not hear the difference on my equipment, but I will hear it once I go with separate amps or a better pre/pro or dedicated 2 channel then I'd go with B because I do expect to have the system grow as time goes on.

My wife really liked the looks of the Dipoles and that couch will be in the way but we're going to re-arrange it somehow so its not blocking anything. Although WAF will not be a problem, she prefers function over form.

Now if I could bottle that and sell it

Thanks

[Eric_C]

I forgot to mention what type of music we listen to.

Everything...this is what I auditioned this weekend on my new found 2 channel setup:

Aerosmith's O'Yeah SACD
Dead Can Dance's Wake
Corrosion of Conformity
REM Around the Sun DVD-A
Diana Krall Girl in the other room
NIN's With Teeth
Depech Mode Playing the Angel
Depech Mode Violator
Nizter Ebb Belief and Showtime
Fugazi On the Tank Killer
White Strips Elephant
Tierenny Sutton Something Cool
Porcupine Tree Lightbulb Sun/In Absentia/DeadWing/Stupid Dream
Tara Maclean Passenger/Silence
Beck's Guero/Sea Change

We listen to a huge huge variety including some older indudstrial/punk, Social Distortion, Minor Threat, Skinny Puppy, etc...

We also like classical but I haven't picked up anything yet until I do some more looking into some good SACD's.

Thanks again

[Paul W]

Though a dipole fan, I do not see a way to get dipoles far enough from the front (TV) wall in that room. At least for me, dipoles (and bipoles) should be at least 4' from the front wall...6' is even better. Too close, and front wall reflections cause imaging to become vague...even intelligibility can suffer if really close.

Looks like your speakers are located well away from the sidewalls, which is a good thing, especially if you can't use dipoles. Line arrays will provide some vertical pattern control for a further reduction in reflections. Reduced reflections, especially near the speakers, will help in the clarity/detail department.

[cjd]

Biggest problem I see is the fact that you pretty much have to cram everything against the wall.

Since you use the big glass box I think a very low BSC design will be the way to go no matter how you look at things. The limited horizontal placement options might further reduce the value of a center channel.

Otherwise, ditch the loveseat. Or turn the room 90 degrees and get a drop-down screen in front of the fireplace to get you good seating for both. Well, you may still hvae to ditch the loveseat. While you're at it, ditch that other horrid lump of furniture. Maybe keep just the loveseat. You could add a second level if you want more seats...

[Eric_C]

Thanks...I think...we like the furniture, its again function over form and after having 2 large dogs wanting to cuddle on our old furniture we went with this.

Can't turn the room 90 degree's, what you don't see in the pictures are the skylights which leave the TV in its only position. Everything is crammed against the wall and for having such a large room its a poor use of space but not much else choice wise.

The wife talked about building a room in the basement but that is a lot of extra investment.

So if dipoles are out that makes it easier. I was told Line Arrays don't have so much of a problem being near a wall, is that true?

[Jim Holtz]

I was told Line Arrays don't have so much of a problem being near a wall, is that true?

Hi Eric,

You are correct. Line arrays are quite forgiving about placement. I only have 16" from the back of the cabinet to the wall and from the sides of the cabinets to the side walls. Mine image extremely well but would be even better with more room on the sidewalls.

Nothing and I do mean nothing in a point source or di-pole speaker can compete with the detail and dynamics of a properly designed line array. It can be breath taking with the right source material. Plus nearfield listening is like being there. If I someday sell my arrays, I'll replace them with another pair. They are really quite spectacular, IMHO. I'm referring to well designed line arrays in general with those comments, BTW.

I think they'd work just fine in your room plus you'd have a sweet area rather than a sweet spot. Another benefit of line arrays and nearfield listening. Check out Selah Audios RS8 design. I think it's a killer for the price.

HTH

Jim

[Eric_C]

Jim,

I actually heard the RS8's in my house

I now realize though I didn't really hear them setup the right way, see my post above. When I listened to them in two channel I like them but wasn't wowed, in multichannel there was more sure more detail.

I really wish I could have heard them setup properly, a fault of mine, not Rick's since I just now realize I did not have things configured correctly for 2 channel.

If I'm looking at the line arrays, will sonotubes make good matching subs? I really want to get the subs done ASAP since I am funding them myself and can finish them quickly. Then I'll build the cabinets for the arrays and sell my speakers, funding the purchase of the kit.

[cjd]

Hang on...

Can you put the screen where the loveseat is currently sitting? Might open up speaker placement a bit for the better...

Included is the assumption that it will be at an angle...

C

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

I actually heard the RS8's in my house

I now realize though I didn't really hear them setup the right way, see my post above. When I listened to them in two channel I like them but wasn't wowed, in multichannel there was more sure more detail.

I really wish I could have heard them setup properly, a fault of mine, not Rick's since I just now realize I did not have things configured correctly for 2 channel.

If I'm looking at the line arrays, will sonotubes make good matching subs? I really want to get the subs done ASAP since I am funding them myself and can finish them quickly. Then I'll build the cabinets for the arrays and sell my speakers, funding the purchase of the kit.

Eric,

there are many that post here that are more knowledgeable about subs than I so I won't pretend to know the different requirements of Sonotubes. To the best of my knowledge, the only concern other than the usual placement and integration issues with any speaker is the ability for a sub(s) to keep up with the efficiency of line arrays. I built a 12" AV12 (TC Sounds) sub into the base of each of my cabinets driven by a 500 watt PE plate amp in each and I have zero problems with them keeping up. Bass is awesome! :T

HTH

Jim

[Eric_C]

Can't put a screen there, that is the walkway to the mudroom and it would look pretty poor from the backside.

I also have 2 dogs who are VERY careful around my stuff. Their pretty smart, I've watched them coming around full bore towards the speakers and hit the brakes HARD, they know better but I don't want to test that theory.

If I were to go that far I'd just build a room in the basement.

Jim did you recently get yours? I remember Rick posting something about them on Audiocircle. They look great but I do want the world coming to an end bass

[Paul W]

I do want the world coming to an end bass

Got space for an IB above/below/anywhere near the main speakers?

[cjd]

Can't put a screen there, that is the walkway to the mudroom and it would look pretty poor from the backside.

That in response to me? In which case, not that corner, the other one.

C

[Eric_C]

cjd,

One side goes into the mud room, the other into the butlers pantry. No go on either side.

EB won't work. Its a story and a half. No that ceiling you see if the roof, just a small space that is totally inaccessible. We have 2 attics, one on the first floor behind the couch which has our master and my office, then the other half of the house is 2 stories with another attic but that attic area does not extend over the great room.

I can do under in the basement, but how is the sound in the basement? We do have cats too and they hang out down there so it can't be dangerously loud down there.

[cjd]

It's as loud as it is for you... IB that is.

who needs a butlers pantry? :P Yeesh, priorities, man! HT or pantry... HT or pantry...

C

[Jim Holtz]

Jim did you recently get yours? I remember Rick posting something about them on Audiocircle. They look great but I do want the world coming to an end bass

Eric,

Actually, I built them three years ago and I'm still happy as can be. I get the urge to build something to replace them once in a while until I set down and listen to music for a while. The desire goes away rapidly. Of course, that's also why I have so many other projects that I've built. I keep thinking that every one is the last one but the ideas keep popping into my head.

I use the two 12"s for music and roll in another 15" for home theater. Yes it does shake the house when called upon.

Jim

[kingpin]

I like the look of your red room.
You have convinced me when I move in the early New Year that this is the color I will be going with.

Mike

[Eric_C]

Mike,

Its called Rustic Brick from Benjamin Moore in Matte finish. Its not the best pics of the room. We have all fluorescent lighting in the house and my wife's camera doesn't do a good job. I didn't feel like digging out my SLR. Her camera gives off all kind of glare and light effects.

She painted the whole room herself in a weekend.

[ThomasW]

I have 2 IBs subs both vent into the basement. I've always had cats, they seen unphased by the subs. Understand it's unlike higher frequencies, bass has to be at insane SPLs to create hearing damage.

If you don't do an IB I think there are 2 other viable options. The first is 4 smaller sealed boxes, one place in each of the rear corners and 2 in the front (this the Harman Internation multi-sub placement concept) The other idea is a pair of larger boxes or tube subs on either side of the TV in the front.

[Eric_C]

We like the look and ease of construction of the tube subs. Thats the way we'd want to go.

How should I size them for this room?

[ThomasW]

You have a height limit don't you?

[digital desire]

Have you seen the "gothic column" look sono tubes that someone around here made?

[Eric_C]

Deppends on the placement. If I can put them in the rear then the height not the biggest deal but they would need to go very close to the rear speakers so I don't know if at a certain height I start interfering with the rears.

I'd probably like to stick between 4' and 5', but what are the differences between going in the 3', 4', and 5' range?

If they went in the front I'd be be more width limited than height.

[ThomasW]

Unless you're going to build 4 you don't want them in the rear.

The bigger the tube the easier it is to get a low tuning. The big rage is EBS (extended bass shelf) designs. These by definition must be huge. Personally I think somewhat smaller tubes 20" diameter with a 6" port work quite well.

This is a sub I designed and built a few years ago for my friend PeteG. It's not to big, not to small and has very good sound quality.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002182117/http://home.comcast.net/~audio-worx/page93PetesTube.html

[BretH]

OOoohhh...build the room in the basement

[Eric_C]

Thomas,

I can no longer find info on the BP1503, is the TC2000 or its cheaper cousin useable?

This sub seems easier to build than the others I've seen, less chamfering on the MDF.

What would be the big difference in this sub versus the 24"x44" that was talked about in the other thread I thought about?

We played around with the love seat today and I can for sure at either 20 or 24 inches in diameter make them both fit fine.

Is bigger better in this case assuming I have the room and the costs are identical?

I'd like to do the room in the basement but we have a very high water table here. I have 2 sump pumps that run quite a bit and when something goes wrong the basement does get water. I am pretty sure I have it all under control but I want a dry year before I try to do something like that.

With it just being the wife and I honestly I'd probably move to another house with a more reasonable room for this rather than build one in the basement.

[WillyD]

The TC-2000 is an excellent option.

Here is a link to parboy's tc-2k build:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22491

[ThomasW]

The great thing about basement is the ability to put an IB in the foor of the room above = very high SAF.

I see very little reason to choose the TC-2000 over the SoundSplinter Rl-p15, given the $85 price difference.

Tube size is simply whatever you want to live with.

[Eric_C]

Thomas,

Thanks. Now I just read your page on the IB's...I guess I'm still not getting the idea of how this will sound better. I keep getting the feeling it would sound muffled and not have that tight musical sound.

Your FAQ says it should be placed between the speakers. Does it need to be parrelel, that would put it under my TV. Can it be behind the TV. There is a cubby cut back there to fit a standard 4:3 TV.

If its not going to be a problem with the animals in the basement I might give it another look.

Last thing is everyone has told me I need room treatments. I was sent a few links on how to make them but not much on placement.

The windows will have valances/drapes in a couple of days. We had the windows replaced and hadn't gotten around to putting them back up.

Any suggestions on what kind of room treatments I should make and where to put them?

If I were to start out with 4 or 6 of the 2x4 panel treatments where to place them? Do I need that many?

How would I measure for proper room treatment versus improper?

Thanks

[ThomasW]

The sound quality from any small box/tube sub is colored by the interaction of the drivers with the 'box'. With an IB there is to 'box' so there's not box coloration. It's the highest sound quality sub no can build.

Yes the 'ideal' position is centered, but that's true for any sub not just an IB.

The cubby behind the TV might work I'd need to see more detailed pictures. Other choices would be simply where ever you where going to put the tube subs.

Note that IB subs need more drivers than a box/tube sub. So 2-4 drivers would be recommended for that room.

From the looks of the room first reflection points aren't a problem. So the most you'd need are bass traps. One measures for them by taking measurements in corners and other places where it's possible to put them. If there's a spike in the bass response that where a trap goes.

Your room would certainly benefit from a 'skyline' or panel diffuser on the wall behind the sectional. Sound from there is bouncing off, moving forward and creating issues with the direct sound.

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/SubwooferSetupandEQpage9.html

[Eric_C]

I'll dig up some pics from when we first bought the house, it shows that area in detail.

I know I'd need more drivers but construction would be quite a bit simpler from what I saw. Could I start out with 2 drivers, build for 4, and later on just cut the holes and add the additional drivers?

I just downloaded Room EQ and will be doing some testing this afternoon.

I've plan on building 2 panel diffusers today to place behind the sectional. I was actually thinking of 3. One on either side of the picture, placed equidistant between the speakers. Just not sure how high they should go. Then a third above the picture, dead centered above it.

If I test for the bass traps, does this mean the location of the SPL meter is where the trap needs to go, or the entire corner, floor to ceiling is the issue? Its very difficult for me to test up near the ceiling obviously.

Are the trap setups dependent on my setup or on the room. Meaning if I play around with this over the next week, then change to an IB or Sonotube in a slightly different location will the traps need to move/removed/added or should that part remain consistent?

Thanks for the all the info...I keep saying this over and over I wish I had read about this last year before I bought everything. I feel I could have spent the same money much more effectively.

Thanks

[Eric_C]

Here is the best pic I could find. I l lightened it a lot so you could see the detail.

Image not available

That area where the TV is sitting in the pic is now tiled. I wanted to experiment with it and thought it was a good place since no one ever saw it

The TV and TV stand sit in front of that and only intrude upon it maybe 2-3 inches.

[ThomasW]

I know I'd need more drivers but construction would be quite a bit simpler from what I saw. Could I start out with 2 drivers, build for 4, and later on just cut the holes and add the additional drivers?

Yep that's pretty much it. It's easier to do the cutouts for all the holes first, then block off the unused ones, as opposed to cutting more holes in an installed manifold.

Mike Keith has some photo's of how he built a 4 driver manifold with plugs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110306031552/http://kingdaddy.linaeum.com/IB%20Sub/

If I test for the bass traps, does this mean the location of the SPL meter is where the trap needs to go, or the entire corner, floor to ceiling is the issue? Its very difficult for me to test up near the ceiling obviously.

Pretty much measure anywhere you can place a trap. No don't worry about the ceiling

Are the trap setups dependent on my setup or on the room. Meaning if I play around with this over the next week, then change to an IB or Sonotube in a slightly different location will the traps need to move/removed/added or should that part remain consistent?

Trap placement is dependent on the geometry of the room and the placement of the sub.

The cubby isn't the 'idea' situation since it will be firing into the back of the TV, but I think it will work fine.
You can test the location by putting a single driver in a sealed box, placing that behind the TV and give it a listen. If you design the box smartly it can become your manifold.

If you have or can take a pic from the basement of the floor area where the manifold will go that would be handy to see.

[Eric_C]

Thomas,

Here are some pics of the basement. You will see 2 cables goes through the floor. The cable that goes along the joist is the backwall of the cubby. The cable you see going through the floor in the middle of the 2 joists is approx the center of the cubby, front to back. Its about 36" deep and 48" wide.


Images not available



I believe you said I can't put them behind me?

I've been reading more and more and basement is my only option unless I put them inside the cubby, on one side there is open space but the other backs upto the powder room.

HVAC runs along the outside walls.


I need a new house

[Eric_C]

We talked it over and decided to go with the tubes for sure.

I'm going to go with the RPL-15 because I can build 2 for a decent price.

I played around with Sonosub and chose a height of 44" because of the height of the furniture around it.

Came out to a tune of 15.3hz, I'd like to hit ~15hz.

271 liters
24" ID
6" Port
44" Total Height
29 7/8's Port Length

I plan on build 2 units like this to go up front.

Anything look wrong with that?

Can all 3 caps be MDF or does just the bottom 1/3 of the cap need to be MDF?

I plan on ordering the drivers tonight.

On the amp I am confused on one point. The EP2500 didn't seem to have an LFE input, how does it hook up?

Thanks

[ThomasW]

Came out to a tune of 15.3hz, I'd like to hit ~15hz.

You'll never be able to tell the difference between those unless you have some fairly fancy test equipment. So don't be concern with the difference.

271 liters
24" ID
6" Port
44" Total Height
29 7/8's Port Length

I plan on build 2 units like this to go up front.

Anything look wrong with that?

Without running the model my self I can't double check. Right now Denver is digging out from a blizzard and I don't have a ton of spare time since another storm is supposed to hit tomorrow night.

If I get some spare time I'll run your sim, but no guarantees at this point.

Can all 3 caps be MDF or does just the bottom 1/3 of the cap need to be MDF?

If you plan on painting them the outer layer should be MDF

On the amp I am confused on one point. The EP2500 didn't seem to have an LFE input, how does it hook up?

The amp doesn't care what kind of signal you're sending it....... :W

[Eric_C]

You'll never be able to tell the difference between those unless you have some fairly fancy test equipment. So don't be concern with the difference.

Thats why I put ~15hz

So just plug in the amp from the LFE signal then.

Great, I'll be picking up the sonotube tomorrow.

Thanks