Please, No Laughing, Spitting or Throwing anything at the Noob

[kingpin]

It is good to put a face on the project.

Ray

Thats my cousin.

This is me.

Image not available

Btw. The walls are a real awesome deep shade of red. It is on the darker side of red not so bright.

Mike

[Ray Collins]

Hmmmmmmm....maybe not.

[cjd]

Hey, nice setup! Placement should be good - very few folks really get to have everything they want in a listening room, and you've got a lot going there. The fact that you plan the room treatments makes me think you're going to end up with a VERY nice setup in the end.

Sound any different in the new digs?

C

[kingpin]

Can somebody please tell me(English please) what the characteristics in sound are between an over or under stuffed(poly fill) mid-range compartment.

BTW Chris, yup things do sound different in the new place.

LOUDER lol lol lol

MIke

[joecarrow]

An under stuffed midrange compartment will basically allow the sound to echo and resonate inside the box. You'll see peaks and dips in the frequency response, based on the dimensions of the box.

An overstuffed midrange compartment could have a few different effects that I can think of. It could start acting like a smaller enclosure, causing a peak in the response as though it was a small sealed box. It could also start reducing output from the driver.

Trial and error is really the way to go. Stuff the left and right differently, and give it a listen.

[kingpin]

I will not let this thread die.

On a serious note. I have a little dilemna. I want to connect my older Yamaha towers as my rear speakers.
At the present time I have my crown 402 powering my mains and the behringer supplying power to the sub sections. When I connect the surrounds to my receiver the volume is way to low and won't barely output any sound to my surrounds. I have even tried to raise the surround levels in my receiver to max output and still barely a whisper. I have tried different movies eg. Blade Trinity, War of the Worlds, Bad Boys 2.

Do you guys running surround sound have multiple or multi channel amps running to level it all out. I guess this is the only way to do it.

Mike

[soho54]

You have now enrolled in "Advanced Level Matching 101."
Here are the crib notes, I can go deeper if needed.
A helper will make this a lot easier.

You need to setup the speakers with the least complex hook-up chain first. Set the surrounds connected to the AVR in the middle setting. Play the AVR test tones and pick an SPL you can tolerate for a "few" minutes.

Now turn the front speakers settings in the AVR way down. I default to all the way down myself. Turn off the sub amp for now. Run the AVR test tones up front, and adjust the crown's "gain" until you get the same SPL as the rears.

Now the sub part is where it gets fun. Turn off the crown amp and disconnect one of the sub sides from it's amp. Run the LFE test tone and set the gain on one side. Then switch up and do the other. Now go back and hook them both up again. Play the LFE tone again, and go into the AVR settings and turn the LFE signal ( not the LFE/Sub Channel ) down to equal the other speakers. This gets rid of the LFE being 6dB hot from having two LFE subs, and keeps the sub-to-front R/L levels correct individualy. Because of the interaction between the two subs you can't just set it -6dB, you have to test.

That's it. Now you're ready to go. Front full range integration is set properly, as well as correct LFE levels.

If your AVR test tones won't let you do things this way, let me know and I'll give you a link to an audio test dvd I did that will help.

[Dennis H]

Short version of what Jacob said, use the gain knobs on the pro amps to set the levels for those channels. You've probably got them turned all the way up now so turn them down. Since the only channels running off the receiver's amps are the surrounds, you can probably just leave all the receiver level controls at 0 and do all your adjusting with the knobs on the pro amps.

[kingpin]

Alright. Good info Jacob and Dennis.
Jacob, I downloaded your dvd a while ago and have had my connection open so anybody who wants it can download it.
I just haven't had the time to figure out how to burn it to a dvd. I am sure it won't be that difficult.

I was up until 4:30am trying to figure things out with my receiver. There are too many ways to screw things up on todays receivers(Yamaha RXV-1600) and for a good hour or so I couldn't get any sound out of my surrounds. It ended up being because I had set the surrounds up as as a different zone(there are 3 zones available) and not surround speakers.

I then ran the auto setup feature(Yamaha's YPAO) and voila I had sound.
Everything checked out o.k. It setup the distances from each speaker to the mic position, checked for wiring out of phase, setup the levels and some other things.

My front and surrounds are set to large, I have no center yet or a dedicated sub output.

More soon.

Mike

[soho54]

I was assuming you have an SPL meter of some sort. This thread is to long to remember everything. :roll:

YPAO is great, but you will have to set the levels between the 3-way and sub sections manually. Then run YPAO.

[Dennis H]

I then ran the auto setup feature(Yamaha's YPAO) and voila I had sound.
Everything checked out o.k. It setup the distances from each speaker to the mic position, checked for wiring out of phase, setup the levels and some other things.

You should be good to go then. A lot of movies just don't have much sound going to the surround channels.

[kingpin]

I was assuming you have an SPL meter of some sort. This thread is to long to remember everything.

YPAO is great, but you will have to set the levels between the 3-way and sub sections manually. Then run YPAO.

I want to do the set-up again.
I had the subs on during the setup and the crossover was set at a 90hz for my towers.
I am no longer using the cleanbox as I found it introduced too much noise.

Concerning the cx2310. I have the input level at (+12) to make up for the line levelling I lost from the cleanbox and the output at (0).
Does this sound correct?
It seems that there is not much difference raising the output level so I backed it off until I noticed there was not much change in output.

You should be good to go then. A lot of movies just don't have much sound going to the surround channels.

I noticed that. It is a real shame I have to purchase some more movies now.

Mike

[PoorboyMike]

Concerning the cx2310. I have the input level at (+12) to make up for the line levelling I lost from the cleanbox and the output at (0).
Does this sound correct?
.

Mike

According to the manual for my Rane PE17, you should try to keep the in/out at equal distances from zero. In other words, if you have your input at +12, your output should be at -12. This of course wouldn't work for your set up, so try something like +6 on the input and -6 on the output.

I don't remember why it's like this, as I am at work and don't have access to the manual right now, but it works for me. When I'm setting the levels, I move both sliders at the same time, toward each other for more output, and away from each other for less.

[soho54]

I am no longer using the cleanbox as I found it introduced too much noise.

I got a bum one too. A slight static, and ground loop problems. I took it apart and re-did everything.

Concerning the cx2310. I have the input level at (+12) to make up for the line levelling I lost from the cleanbox and the output at (0).

That's part of the Advance class. :B This is fine. What are the fronts set at in the Yami? It is odd you didn't get much gain from the output section, but don't worry about it if it isn't needed.

So that is a "no" on the SPL meter?

[kingpin]

I got a bum one too. A slight static, and ground loop problems. I took it apart and re-did everything.
That's part of the Advance class. :B This is fine. What are the fronts set at in the Yami? It is odd you didn't get much gain from the output section, but don't worry about it if it isn't needed.

So that is a "no" on the SPL meter?

I thought the cleanbox was a god-send until I "really" started to listen to music. It became un-bearable so I threw it in my cable and audio paraphernalia trunk not to be used again.

front left (-2.5db)
front right (-2.0db)
sur left (+2.5db)
sur right (+1.5db)


front left 13.0feet
front right 13.0feet
sur left 6.0feet
sur right 5.0feet

LFE level 0.0db
Dynamic range SP: Max
Dynamic Range HP: Max

front and surrounds are set to large

And no spl meter.

Thanks Soho
Mike

[soho54]

Set the surrounds to small.

You will also need to take the LFE levels down -3dB to -9dB, unless you like the LFE stuff hot. I know that seems odd, but try it both ways. Having the LFE hotter than the regular sub stuff sounds a bit off.

SP-Speaker Setting HP-Headphone Setting

If you get the DVD burned, there are some channel specific bass sweeps that you can use to dial in the RS 10 to RS 12 xover by ear a little better.

[Dennis H]

Set the surrounds to small.

I'm not so sure about that. Very little bass gets sent to the rear channels and 'tower' speakers should be able to handle it just fine.

[Dennis H]

You will also need to take the LFE levels down -3dB to -9dB, unless you like the LFE stuff hot. I know that seems odd, but try it both ways. Having the LFE hotter than the regular sub stuff sounds a bit off.

Mike doesn't have a sub. He has a 4.0 system. The 'LFE' setting in the Yamaha is just setting the boost for the 0.1 channel recorded on the disk. 0dB is the correct setting for a DD source.

[kingpin]

I'm not so sure about that. Very little bass gets sent to the rear channels and 'tower' speakers should be able to handle it just fine.

I think this is the way I will keep them, set to large.The Yamaha's I have as the surrounds are a tmm(2x8"woofers) and play pretty well in the higher spl area.

Jacob, were you saying to make them small in the receiver in case they cannot keep up with the fronts. That I could understand.

Mike

[soho54]

The 'LFE' setting in the Yamaha is just setting the boost for the 0.1 channel recorded on the disk. 0dB is the correct setting for a DD source.

The Yami has a setting which turns down the LFE only, not talking about the sub level setting or the old 0/-10dB stuff. It is a great feature to have.

In a set up like his(4.0) or mine(5.0) the mains both produce the LFE channel. This puts the LFE's unintentionally 6dB high. This is why I told him to set each "sub" individually, and then run the LFE test tone again with both "subs" active, and lower the LFE setting in his Yami until it is at the correct SPL. Now the "sub" portion of his mains are level matched to the 3-way section, and the LFE levels are correct. Win win.
I haven't tried to figure out any BM issues with the Yami in this setup. It sounds great as is, so I lost interest.

I alway suggest setting the rears to small. Most store bought "towers" aren't really that good below 80Hz at higher playback levels anyway. If they were awesome speakers I would at least run a 60Hz on them. It's not just for the low end, the extra clarity up top from taking the strain off them is usually worth it by itself. Just me though. There are about 500 ways to skin that cat.

[kingpin]

Alright, so most of my tweaking has been done. The YPAO in the Yamaha receiver did awesome work, getting rid of the cleanbox was a very good move, I added a regular eq(i know it's not proper)on the sub side and boosted ever so slightly at 40 and 63hz and this helped also.

I need to make some room treatments and get rid of the sliding closet doors(mirrors) which face the speakers on the rear wall.

I will be making some absorbant panels which will go almost floor to ceiling and the whole span behind the speakers and the tv.
The wall where one speaker is will get a panel again almost floor to ceiling from the corner to roughly 16" in front of that speaker.
There will also be a couple subsequent panels along that wall.
I will hang a panel on the rear of the entry door and on the new wooden closet doors.

Now to my real question. Below is a diagram of my room. Not really to scale but close enough. There is some info on the side of the pic and room placements and stuff.

Image not available

Any idea why I have such a heavy concentration of bass in the red area. Seems to be more than in front. I notice it alot now that I have moved my computer desk to where it is shown in the picture.

I am also going to be tipping the speakers 3/4-1" in the rear to see if I can focus some of the low frequencies from the 12's that are up high to the listening position. I am hoping that this doesn't cause problems with the rest of the speaker.

I finally have the speakers on their outriggers which have improved the look and have added another dynamic to the speakers Chris and Brian designed. :T

These monsters I think are finally starting to sound like they were designed to. :T

Mike

[jonathanb3478]

Any idea why I have such a heavy concentration of bass in the red area. Seems to be more than in front. I notice it a lot now that I have moved my computer desk to where it is shown in the picture.

I have a bass-emphasis in the same general area in my HT, too. Like yours, on the other side of the left main (horizontally), and between the mains and the listening position (front-to-back). I also have a wall right next to the right-side main. Odd.

I finally have the speakers on their outriggers which have improved the look and have added another dynamic to the speakers Chris and Brian designed. :T

Pics, pics!!!

These monsters I think are finally starting to sound like they were designed to. :T

Congratulations!

[kingpin]

Hey Jonathon. What you been up to man?
Here are some pics of the speakers on the outriggers.


Images not available



These outriggers are 1/4"thick, although I have 2 sets sandwiched together to give me a thickness of 1/2" for the added strength. They are powdercoated black and don't just look good IMO but work extremely well. The rubberized handles give you an adjustment of about 1" up and down and the spikes also give you a secondary adjustment of 1/4".

I have adjusted the back outriggers so they raise the back 3/4" which have helped greatly directing soom of the lower frequencies to the listening positioning.

Thanks to Paul at "Soundocity" for having so much patience waiting for pics and a report since February. It was his advice that I put the two outriggers together for added strength. He also sent me the extra sets($200+) worth at no charge as I was kind of his test bed since the outriggers had never been used for speakers this size. I would recommend this product to anyone who is in the market for something other than just speaker spikes.

Mike

[---k---]

I was thinking about those outriggers the other day. I thought they might be cool on my upcoming speakers. Then I saw the price. 8O But, I do like the look.

[Ray Collins]

Fantastic!!!

[jonathanb3478]

Hey Jonathon. What you been up to man?
Here are some pics of the speakers on the outriggers.

...

Those look beefy. Sweet. I remember them from "a few" pages back, but I really wanted to see the effect when they were mounted to the Overkill project. That looks impressive.

I have been mostly trying to not spend my self back into problems, while at the same time trying to finish a couple computers (one for gaming, one for storage). I always want two around, and both of my last two took a crap late last year and early this. They were both years and years old, so I am fine with that. It is time. After all, they were both Athlon XP based, lol.

I have my Gaming machine up (3GB PC2-1066 - e6600 @ 3.3Ghz, 8800GTS 640MB @ 675 core, 1566 shader, 1998 mem - water cooling for CPU/GPU), but the file server is still missing parts. Picking those last few up is ahead of my own DIY speaker building for the time being.

Hoping to get a bit further with my RS TMWW enclosures on my vacation (late Sept -> early Oct) with out spending much. Hopefully <$100 for more MDF and some of the remaining hardware items (port tubes, terminals, etc) will allow me to make some worth while progress.

We'll see.

[sprint_9]

Holy crap, just finished reading through all 20 pages and I must say this is one sweet setup. I myself would like to do something to this effect but a little scaled down, only one woofer and sub per side. Then have the sub on the bottom, then woofer, then the mid, tweet, mid.

How do the subs sound in a seald box, Ive got the same sub in a slot ported box and its pretty good but I think I would like something sealed better.

How do you plan to finish the exterior, any plans?

[---k---]

Might want to check out this thread https://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26309
(shameless plug for CJD's and my Khanspire project) and notice on some of the later pages that CJD and Brian are talking about ways to incorporate a side firing sub.

Or, just add the subs (as bass bins) to the NatP project. That will be real good and exactly what you've described. There have been a couple of that have done bass bins and the NatP. Someone will post a link.

Adding a sub in the same box with an active cross-over is pretty easy. But scaling down an existing 3-way to have one less woofer is a total crossover redesign.

[kingpin]

Back from the dead

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Thought I would resurrect this thread since my main point is show and tell and I have moved to an almost completed speaker.

I figured since I am waiting in limbo for the vacationing plasterer(mud and taping) I would use the room to paint everything. Veneer was the first idea, but, honestly my work is not good enough to be able to veneer these things. They still weigh 250lbs each and that cost me as me and a friend dropped one of them down the stairs when moving back in December.. More damage to the stairs though than the speakers.

I highly recommend a primer/sealer by B.I.N.(Zinnisser). Iths the red label and is a shellac based primer. One coat of this stuff and it sealed the mdf up good.. I also had it tinted grey to help with the black.

The subs and the speakers each have 3 coats of exterior acrylic satin by C.I.L. Went on pretty good but with so much black pigment in the paint it took forever to dry. I waited 1 full day between coats to make sure it was dry.

I also removed all interior wiring and crossovers from the 3-ways and will be building something nice to to mount them outside the cabinets. Paranoia just kills me as I keep thinking I have something wired wrong. So know its all on the outside and will stay there. Not too mention that the crossovers are a good conversation piece when showing off. :B

Here's some pics.




Images not available

[cjd]

Dang, those are *sharp*!

[---k---]

Yeah, look great.

Is that spray on paint or rolled. I just couldn't get spray to give me good results. I got to much over spray on the sides when I did the front, etc. My wife has been threatening to paint when the weather breaks.

[kingpin]

Ryan, they are rolled on. I used an exterior acrylic satin. Why exterior. Extremely tough and durable. Takes longer to dry indoors but worth it.

So here they are pretty much finished. The big wires you see are Canare 4s11 which is what will be going to the crossovers that will be mounted in custom made acrylic boxes that will sit on top of the speakers.

WARNING
Do not use rope caulk to use as a seal behind drivers unless you plan on killing yourself trying to get them back out. What seemed like a good idea for an awesome seal quickly turned into a nightmare when I tried to remove drivers to double check on wiring that I "did" screw up. Took me about 45 minutes to pull out 2 drivers. It also left me with a 3/4"gash on the top of my nose when the screwdriver i had bent to pry the speakers out slipped out of the hole and smashed me on the nose.

The black hides a lot of the flaws that were once really well pronounced and they came out looking pretty good. The only thing missing is the crossovers on top and the outriggers.



Images not available

[---k---]

Cool. I rolled on some paint with a sub, and it came out well. Everyone seems to talk about spray paint though, so I gave it a try. I must just suck, but I get clumpy overspray all over the sides.

Got any pictures with the outriggers on? I still haven't done anything with mine, and need to do something. I'm still tempted by those outriggers, even though I think they're overpriced (small quantities, I know).

[Bent]

spray in a cooler room, it should cause it to cure slower, thaus possibly allowing it to "lay down" better.
Just a thought.

[Johnloudb]

spray in a cooler room, it should cause it to cure slower, thaus possibly allowing it to "lay down" better.
Just a thought.

I agree, I found spray lacquer goes on much better when it's cool outside.

[---k---]

Hummm, iirc I was trying to paint on 90 degree days. Maybe I'll give it another try one of these days.

[HDBLU]

AWESOME one word

[jyqureshi]

Excellent work Mike.

Congrats.

[64NOMIS]

Really nice.

What primer are folks using for spray lacquer on MDF?

[kingpin]

I hope it's okay i answer a question here.
The speakers were primed with Zinnisser Bulls eye primer. The white and red can which contains shellac. I put 2 coats of primer.
Then I used 3 coats(I think) of exterior 100%acrylic satin black paint. All done with a paint roller.
Not a professional finish but it looked pretyy good to me.

Mike

[wkhanna]

I hope it's okay i answer a question here.

Dude! Your are a legend around here.......Still!

It's great to know you still drop by. Hope you are well!

Regards,

Bill (with the puny little tiny-whiny speakers)

[kingpin]

Hey Bill.
Thanks for the kind words.
Legend.....i think that should be saved for people like chris, thomas, and mr. marsh. lol

I never stopped coming around here. Always lurking and still drooling at designs like the statements and such.

Unfortunately I sold everything(3-ways, subs, center,oppo,amps) but my tv, receiver and now listen to music through my polk audios which were my rear speakers.

Actually, I don't even listen to music or watch movies at home at all anymore since selling everything. It's just not the same. Kinda makes me sad.....but sometimes you have to do, what you have to do to survive.

My photo bucket account with the pictures from my build still averages a few thousand hits per month. I take that as a compliment and pass it on to those who helped me out with everything.

Mike(lurker)

first post has all the photos reposted there.