Please, No Laughing, Spitting or Throwing anything at the Noob

[cjd]

:angel:

[soho54]

Back to the drawing board.

Not really.

An LT really isn't "nessesary" with four 12"s. It could help sure, but it is far from a big mistake, or oversite. Don't beat yourself up over it. Just get a BFD a little later (put it between the C2310 and the 12"s amp), and fake an LT with it if you really have to have one.

You have also hinted about building a sub later on. If this still holds true there is no reason to LT the mains, other than for more "overkilll".

Relax, you still have a h#!! of a set there. :T
To be honest I don't remember you ever mentioning an LT before (edit: found it, had to go way back), and everyone loves your rig as is. No worries man. :B

[cjd]

Well, there's no reason to have the 12's in the mains if they're not actually playing sub duty. The cost of adding a BFB isn't really different than starting out with the DCX, and you get more finite control over the sub/woofer crossover with the DCX which I think is a good thing. It'll take measurements though, so one step at a time!

Any "real" sub would then actually just do LFE duty with mains run "full" (what a concept!)

c

[soho54]

I didn't say he should set the mains to small. :unsure:

[cjd]

:lol:

yeah, that would be the day!

They're downright CUTE and CUDDLY they're so small. Though they're larger on this 21" monitor than my laptop. hmmm...

[---k---]

Good news, YOU HAVE LT!!!

Okay, no you don't, but very very close. You're unit can do shelf filters. It calls them Low Pass and High Pass filters. Use a Low Pass Filter set to like +6db and the hinge frequency you want. You'll have the choice between either a 12db Lowpass or a 6db Lowpass. It is the same options as on the DEQ2496 that is frequently recommended for sealed subs. See page 15 of the online manual.

[kingpin]

Thanks guys.
My right shoulder won. No more money to spend until settled in at the new place.

I do have to say the bass on these things is unbelievable right now, and it would seem hard to improve on it. :T

I don't know what the rule on break-in is but I had them playing a lot of different music for about 12-13 hours the other day. I left for work and nobody else was home all day so I cranked them up to about -25 on the receiver and let them go.

I received my replacement sub from PE and put that in right away.
The polyfill is in, the felt is on and have been playin' around with the crossover and amp levels to try and get levels matched up.

A friend of mine was over the other day and had a comment that made me laugh. She said to me.
"Wow, I like the natural wood finish of your speakers and stands" :roll: :roll:

Mike

[kingpin]

Anyone have any ideas on this.

Crown XLS402
-this is the amp that is driving the upper part of my speakers.

Turned it on today and right away the fault light(yellow) went on.
The amp was stone cold and had not been used since the day before and all was well then.
I un-plugged the speaker wires and turned it on, still the same.
I un-plugged the xlr connects and turned it on, still the same.
I un-plugged it let it sit and still the same.

So I left for a couple hours came home and now all of a sudden it's fine.
Do you think this is something that I should be worried about.
I bought it used and it has worked great for a year or so.
I was thinking about maybe replacing the fuse in it, if that's possible.

Any suggestions from you amp experts.
BTW. I have had this amp running for 4-5 hours at high levels and never once has it gone to fault mode.

Thanks
Mike

[digital desire]

Sounds like maybe a cold solder joint?
Replacing a fuse that is not shot does noting for you. It certainly would not cure a fault.
If you pull all the wires -inputs and outputs, turn the amp on and get a fault light, you have a problem. I would get it taken care of one way or another if it is a continuing problem. I know nothing about the amp in particular, but have repaired quite a few on the side. The fault light is probably a comparator circuit that senses DC at the output, a *real* bad thing. A lot of times it is coupled with a relay to cut the output and protect the speakers.

[kingpin]

Thanks Peter.

Right now I have stopped using the amp for the upper portion of my speakers.
I have them running off my Yamaha which doesn't seem to like them to much at the higher listening levels.

[kingpin]

Chris(cjd) your pm box is full. :cry:

How high in the frequency range are the rs12's subs comfortable in?
I have them usually crossed over in the 60-100Hz area depending on what I am listening to.

Have I said lately how awesome these things sound. :dancenana: :dancenana:

[joecarrow]

http://www.mfk-projects.com/rs_12_hi-fi.htm

Based on this, I say that you wouldn't be crazy trying up to 200-250 hz. It really could sound OK that high; depending on where you have the most amp power, it could help take a load off to increase that XO frequency.

[WillyD]

Except there is really no point in crossing the Hi-Fi's over that high since he has a pair of 10" Refs in each tower as it is.

[kingpin]

Except there is really no point in crossing the Hi-Fi's over that high since he has a pair of 10" Refs in each tower as it is.

Good point. :T

[joecarrow]

There's would normally be no point, if you're just talking about driver excursion and distortion, but for the time being he has something like 1000 watts to throw at the subs, and a Yamaha amp that's complaining a bit from driving the rest. Moving more onto the subs decreases the demand on the upper amp- at least until he can get that amp repaired.

Mike, that Crown's really not a bad amp. If you're happy with it, I'd recommend having it serviced.If it's a cold solder joint, a good repair shop would give it a once-over and touch up the usual problem joints. They might not charge more than $25 for such a service. I doubt it will be fixed cheaply unless you have a real gem of a repair shop in the area- so get a quote before they do the repair. I've trouble getting repair service at a lot of so-called "stereo" shops. They just want to send it back to the factory and charge you for their "trouble".

It's not a bad amp, but it's also not the most impressive part of the system. It becomes a financial question whether you want to repair or upgrade.

[kingpin]

I am happy with the Crown. I know it's not thought of as much around these parts but it was my first amp purchase. Used for $170cdn.

I can say that there is no comparison in sound between running with or without a dedicated amp for the mains. I don't know if this makes sense but with the amp everything seems to sound effortless(whatever that means).

Some of the amps around here look like additions built onto your houses. :B
Especially looking at some of the stuff you guys are using.

I do have a local guy here who is quite familiar with this kind of stuff. His main business is doing service calls and warantee work for the major tv companies. I will have him take a look and see what he says. Maybe I can get him to do a fan and resistor mod for me while he is at it.

Thanks
Mike

[BigJim_inFLA]

How high in the frequency range are the rs12's subs comfortable in?
I have them usually crossed over in the 60-100Hz area depending on what I am listening to.

I'm crossing from my Nat P to two RSS315-HF's at 220Hz, it sounds fantastic.

[---k---]

Chris(cjd) your pm box is full. :cry:

Yep, I noticed that yesterday too.


Crown's usually have really good, no-questions asked, transferable warrenties. How old is the amp? If it is less than 3-years, you have a good chance that it is covered. I think older amps had longer warrenties, but you'll have to check.

[cjd]

PM box has room again... for now.

Run the subs as they sound good. You'll get a bit more even response through the crossover pushing things up to 100Hz since the crossover you're using is fixed at a 4th order slope on both ends. If you can go uneven slope, as low as 40 or 50Hz is reasonable with these. Long term I think I would try to stay no higher than 90Hz unless you find there are localization problems, in which case I would try lowering the crossover slope rather than pushing the coverage up higher.

Much past 90Hz and you may as well have built a Natalie P.

C

[kingpin]

Yep, I noticed that yesterday too.


Crown's usually have really good, no-questions asked, transferable warrenties. How old is the amp? If it is less than 3-years, you have a good chance that it is covered. I think older amps had longer warrenties, but you'll have to check.

I looked on the amp and on the back there is a sticker with a bar code on it but I can't find a manufactured date. Maybe there is something inside it.
I think it's a XLS402 not a 402b which makes it a 2004 model.

[kingpin]

When I move the right speaker will be close to a wall.
In this pic the red is the wall space and the violet is an acoustic panel I am thinking of making with the extra safe and sound I have.
Would this help at all or would it be a waste of time.
I was also thinking of making some acoustic panels to hang behind the speakers on the wall.

Image not available

[---k---]

I looked on the amp and on the back there is a sticker with a bar code on it but I can't find a manufactured date. Maybe there is something inside it.
I think it's a XLS402 not a 402b which makes it a 2004 model.

Just give Crown a phone call. If you give them the Serial Number, I'm sure they can look it up. They'll also be able to hook you up with a repair place.

[kingpin]

Notice anything odd about this crappy pic I just took.
You are all pretty intelligent, so I am sure you will figure it out quickly.

Image not available

[---k---]

Have fun flipping one of those over.

[cjd]

So, details man! DEtaILS!

First reflection point should be treated on the right side, should be an audible difference. Use a mirror to find that spot.

C

[kingpin]

He He.

I knew it was too easy.
I could tell you that in the process of flipping it over which I knew was not going to be an easy task, I got my index finger caught between the bottom end of the speaker and the ceramic tile floor. It is now twice the size it was an hour ago.

Anyways.
Chris, I owe you an apology. ;x(
I took your hard work and pretty much butchered it by turning this now even more awesome speaker upside down. Don't get me wrong it sounded great that way it was(subs down). Turning it over has given this speaker a new life. :T :T

There is a lot of information eminating from these speakers.
Although the mid and tweeter section stay the same height no matter which way they stand, the rs270's way up in the air I think were just whistling dixie looking for some attention. :Z

What made me do this today.

As I was driving home from work I had one of those bass box on wheels pull up next to me. This is what came to my mind.
"Hey kid, there is more to music than bass." :W

The gears started turning and I started to think about what am I actually hearing when I am listening to music. I came to the realization that I was probably missing a lot with a main part of the speaker sitting 2-3 feet above my head.
When I got home I had my father(poor guy) help me flip this thing over. :E

Although the bass is less now being so high, it now seems to be integrated better with the overall sound. If I need more low end I just turn the gain up.

So there you are.
All you noob's. Shut up and listen when the elders, um I mean wiser people have something to tell you. :B

Moral of the story.
Never screw with someone else's hard work and engineering.

Your humble noob.
Mike

[cjd]

that sucks. But isn't entirely surprising. Live'n learn. There's some solid lower midrange coming out of the RS270's though.

You should be able to cross to the subs a bit lower now too and that might help things more.

C

[kingpin]

that sucks. But isn't entirely surprising. Live'n learn. There's some solid lower midrange coming out of the RS270's though.

You should be able to cross to the subs a bit lower now too and that might help things more.

C

Nope, it doesn't suck.
Like you said, live'n learn.

I said from my first post in this thread, I would rather build them the way I want to, and fail, than to have wondered what could have been.

There is a much fuller sound now, and that is with the subs turned off.
It was almost like there was a whole lower octave(I hope that's the right term) missing with the 270' up there.

They also look kind of cool upside down, or right side up whichever way you want to look at it.

Mike

[---k---]

I didn't follow the early part of this thread too much. Are the speakers symetrical, or are the 270s on bottom and the subs up top?

[cjd]

He opted to put the subs on the bottom and flip the WWMTM with the RS270's up top.

He's since flipped that with the subs on top and RS270's in the position they were designed to exist...

C

[Brian Bunge]

OK, have I lost my mind or are the mids and tweets on both speakers offset to the left?

EDIT: Nevermind. I now see that only one of the speakers has been flipped in that pic!

[kingpin]

Another would I be correct in assuming question...

Would I be correct in assuming that the little red dot(sticker) on the rs28 signifies the positive connection?

Just making sure.

Mike

[cjd]

I seem to recall the sticker does signify + but would have to pull a tweeter and verify to really be sure.

C

[kingpin]

I can't find any other markings.

[wkhanna]

Another would I be correct in assuming question...

Would I be correct in assuming that the little red dot(sticker) on the rs28 signifies the positive connection?

Just making sure.

Mike

OK....
They say the only dumb question is the one never asked, so, at the risk of being seen as totally clueless, I have to ask............

When I was wiring up my my NatP 'Twins', I noticed only one of my RS28 tweeters had a red dot (sticker) next to one of the terminals. This got me thinking (an oft dangerous and dubious event).......Are speakers designed with predetermined polarity? I had assusmed that they were. IIRC, I have seen polarity markings on larger speakers like subs.

One of my RS180's had terminal with a reddish hue, the other three had no designations which I could find. Could I have speakers wire out of phase within the cabinet, as opposed to out of phase between the cabinets?

When I wired them, I oriented them such that the + and - feed from my XO’s is going to the same terminal relative to the two terminals on the RS180's, but I have no idea which is the + and - terminal on the speaker itself.

[cjd]

.Are speakers designed with predetermined polarity?

Yes

Could I have speakers wire out of phase within the cabinet, as opposed to out of phase between the cabinets?

Yes

When I wired them, I oriented them such that the + and - feed from my XO’s is going to the same terminal relative to the two terminals on the RS180's, but I have no idea which is the + and - terminal on the speaker itself.

This means you probaby have the RS180's wired together correctly, but it is possible the tweeter is out of phase which will result in a null through the crossover region. Check the crossover diagram, it specifies how the drivers need to be wired up. (note, they're not always wired in phase, sometimes they have to be reversed since the crossover introduces phase wrap)

C

[kingpin]

One of my RS180's had terminal with a reddish hue, the other three had no designations which I could find. Could I have speakers wire out of phase within the cabinet, as opposed to out of phase between the cabinets?

.

If you look behind the tab on the rs180 you will see a positive and negative marking.
Kind of hard to find.

[wkhanna]

Thanks guys. I have had these apart so many times in the last three weeks, I have no idea how many different ways they have been hooked up?!?!?!?!?

I noticed some issues with staging that seemed to float, this may have been the reason. Also, my LF seemed strong some times, and not so tight others; again, maybe due to the polarity mismatch.

It’s just that these babies are so much better than my old speakers, it was hard to be so critical, and I am still getting used to them.

Well, they say it sucks to get old, and in my case the eyes are the first thing to go. I had a stroke a few years ago, and it caused me to loose sight in my right eye temporarily, but it never has been as good as before. Any way, after getting out the magnifying glass and high-power Halogen spotlight, and with KP’s directions, I did finally find the markings.

All is well the world once again, and I could tell a difference immediately

Thanks again!

[kingpin]

Thought you got rid of me, eh.

Hello gentlemen.

Have been moving into my new place the past week and a half, which means no internet access.
Pics of the new setup to come once all cleaned up.

I guess the money I spent on the dedicated lines for the audio, to seperate them from the regular outlets and lights was well spent as there is absolutely no hum or groud loop or hiss or anything coming from my speakers except beautiful music.

But...........................

I am getting a nasty buzz when I plug in the the digital coaxial cable from my computers sound card.

Any ideas how to fix this.

I am thinking if I use an adaptor just before my receiver to change the rca plug to toslink.

What do you guys think?

Thanks
Mike

P.S. I hope I didn't miss much while I was gone.

[joecarrow]

Toslink is optical, right? As far as I can tell that sounds like a surefire plan. Computers can be very noisy electrically, so I can imagine it producing some noise. A nasty buzz still kind of sounds like a ground loop to me, though. If the computer isn't on the same circuit as the audio, then the PC and audio equipment would have a long way to go before they found a common ground. I don't know as much about ground loops as I'd like, but that might be relevant.

[BobEllis]

The digital gurus might be able to give you a part number, but an isolation transformer on the SPDIF line would let you keep the higher quality interface and kill the ground loop. You could look for a DAC kit that uses a transformer input and get that transformer.

[kingpin]

The digital gurus might be able to give you a part number, but an isolation transformer on the SPDIF line would let you keep the higher quality interface and kill the ground loop. You could look for a DAC kit that uses a transformer input and get that transformer.

Bob, are you saying that spdif is higher quality than toslink(optical).

I know that this has been debated before but was unsure if there was ever a consensus made.

Mike

[BobEllis]

Theoretically at least, SPDIF has lower jitter and therefore should sound better. Whether it is audible or not depends on your DAC and ears. I did a little bit of comparing the two switching back and forth between inputs while playing a CD (one SPDIF and the other Toslink). I thought I heard a difference sometimes, but it was subtle and I may have heard what I was expecting (SPDIF sounding better). I use the SPDIF connection for music and Toslink for movie sound from my player.

[kingpin]

My new digs.

Here is my set-up in my new place.
Unfortunately we had to tear down the ceiling and we put up a new drop ceiling with safe and sound insulation.

The speakers are 15" from the wall, and the side of the speaker close to the wall is 18" away. Right now they are 12" from the ceiling until I put them on their stands which will raise them another 2". Both speakers are 22" away from the tv and the face of the speakers are 12" in front of the face of the tv. This is the best I can do with what I've got.

Speakers laying down(bottoms with protective board on bottoms) in a full size Suburban.

Image not available

My cousin(6'1") standing besides the unloaded cabinets.

Image not available

Rats nest. For now.

Image not available

Side view from open side.

Image not available

Front right side view.

Image not available

Side of speaker beside the wall.

Image not available

View from speakers.(sliding glass doors have to go)

Image not available

Dark view.

Image not available

Room treatments are coming after I get over the shock of the moving and reno' expenses.
Sound panels are going behind the t.v. and speakers the full length and 2/3's the height of the wall. Another panel floor to ceiling besides the speaker near the wall. Also a couple more panels along the same wall.

Mike

[Ray Collins]

It is good to put a face on the project.

Ray