The Soup Speaker

[ColoradoTom]

Maybe an M8ta 3-way C12, C79, RS225 "Jon" clone. :T Seriously. I've got measurements for the RS225s I own, and the speaker workshop files from the Opus clone. I might do some splicing of Xover topologies unless Jon beats me to it. I'm also interested in maybe some sort of mini (Orion sized) dipole speaker. I've never heard one before and they say once you go dipole you never go back to box speakers.

M8ta 3-way...... that sounds interesting.

[JonMarsh]

Hey!!! Having Nun-like speakers may not be such a bad idea... I can't tell you how many times my wife has walked into my audio room and said "Oh my GOD". If I had the ability to clone the Isis that would probably be my next project!!

OK, it depends on how close you want to come....

It uses the D30 diamond tweeter, the C90/T6 midrange, and two Eton 12" underhund neodymium woofers. I'd suggest the Aurasound NS12-513a, as the Neodymium Eton is NOT available to the DIY community, and the Aurasounds are, and have remarkable response characteristics. The only drawback to those is that they're 4 ohm drivers each, so would be wired in parallel; the net sensitivity due to current draw would be lower, though still around 85 dB or so. The C90/T6 I've started testing on, it seems to meet the published specs; I see why Avalon is using the D30, becuase I think the C90 will work best with a 2 kHz or lower crossover.

While the D30 is pretty super, you can probably get most of the way there with a C24-6, the new version of the C23-6 which also uses an underhung Neodymium motor like the C13-6, which I'm also playing with. One thing I like about the Accuton tweeters is that the upper range resonance is more under control than most hard dome drivers. My instinctive feel says this is good. (yeah, that's not very engineer talk, is it?)

We just need some better pictures. The rest is just engineering. Reverse engineering? :rofl: ThomasW would say, what I do best when I'm moving backwards. Ask Thomas about the Legacy Whisper Klones.


It's a little odd that Avalon doesn't have a picture posted on their site, just this artsy drawing.





All I'd need would be a couple of weeks of vacation to work out the main details.

vacation/ Hah! I'm still trying to work on getting weekends off!

Gotta go get my coffee and work on some stuff for the meetings I'm flying to Sunday in AZ.


~Jon

[ColoradoTom]

OK, it depends on how close you want to come....

It uses the D30 diamond tweeter, the C90/T6 midrange, and two Eton 12" underhund neodymium woofers. I'd suggest the Aurasound NS12-513a, as the Neodymium Eton is NOT available to the DIY community, and the Aurasounds are, and have remarkable response characteristics. The only drawback to those is that they're 4 ohm drivers each, so would be wired in parallel; the net sensitivity due to current draw would be lower, though still around 85 dB or so. The C90/T6 I've started testing on, it seems to meet the published specs; I see why Avalon is using the D30, becuase I think the C90 will work best with a 2 kHz or lower crossover.

While the D30 is pretty super, you can probably get most of the way there with a C24-6, the new version of the C23-6 which also uses an underhung Neodymium motor like the C13-6, which I'm also playing with. One thing I like about the Accuton tweeters is that the upper range resonance is more under control than most hard dome drivers. My instinctive feel says this is good. (yeah, that's not very engineer talk, is it?)

We just need some better pictures. The rest is just engineering. Reverse engineering? :rofl: ThomasW would say, what I do best when I'm moving backwards. Ask Thomas about the Legacy Whisper Klones.


It's a little odd that Avalon doesn't have a picture posted on their site, just this artsy drawing.





All I'd need would be a couple of weeks of vacation to work out the main details.

vacation/ Hah! I'm still trying to work on getting weekends off!

Gotta go get my coffee and work on some stuff for the meetings I'm flying to Sunday in AZ.


~Jon

Gee Jon....

How hard can this be. I mean really, it looks like a faceted top half of a Wilson Watt placed upon a mini-me Sentinel bottom - sort of a Sent-E-Watt. You design it and I'll build it and I'll have you and ThomasW over for a listening session - I'll even let you play my guitars!!

Tom

[Jed]

M8ta 3-way...... that sounds interesting.

I downloaded Marc's measurements and SW files. Then, I modified Jon's crossover to accept an RS225. Just thought I would mess around with this crossover for fun. It would probably be more accurate if I got my hands on Jon's measurements in the M8ta enclosure, but this one should be close enough.

Jed

[JonMarsh]

Looks good, Jed. I'd almost consider turning my M8ta into three ways, but the braces and other mechanicals don't work out- it will take a slight re-design. Now, if they offered me a nice early retirement package, then I'd have the time to build stuff that I'm just moderately interested in. Gotta prioritize though.

[JonMarsh]

Gee Jon....

How hard can this be. I mean really, it looks like a faceted top half of a Wilson Watt placed upon a mini-me Sentinel bottom - sort of a Sent-E-Watt. You design it and I'll build it and I'll have you and ThomasW over for a listening session - I'll even let you play my guitars!!

Tom

Well, now, that's a good point... how hard would it be? I'd have to do a mockup of a top module, to get good baffle measurements. And it would be handy to have some more pics so I can figure out the dimensions- you wouldn't believe what we went through doing the Legacy Whisper Klones, scaling from just a few photographs and knowing what the driver diameters were.







It's been so long since I've played I'd be embarassed to pick up one of your guitars, but I sure would like seeing them up close.


Hmmmmmm.

Let's see how the Isiris goes, then who knows? Realistically, I think a C24-6 would be the most sensible tweeter choice- equivalent to a sapphire version of the D30.

An initial pass of the crossover could be done with a straight BB ply box for the 12's. Probably do a bottom firing 4" port. I bet it would be fun working with more of those Aurasounds. :B

In fact, I bet a proof of concept could be done just with the 3/4 cu ft PE boxes for the top- put a little tilt on them if needed to get the downfiring crossover lobe, though I really question the need for that. OTOH, if you want praying nuns, I guess you have to go the whole route.

~Jon

[Jed]

Looks good, Jed. I'd almost consider turning my M8ta into three ways, but the braces and other mechanicals don't work out- it will take a slight re-design. Now, if they offered me a nice early retirement package, then I'd have the time to build stuff that I'm just moderately interested in. Gotta prioritize though.

Totally understand about prioritizing. I'm just debating whether I want to go down the road of another complicated 3-way design. Also, my experience with a dipole tweeter (ESS) has me thinking more about dipoles in general. We'll see, maybe I'll do something crazy like an WMTMW with RS225s, 882 peerless, and C24 or C13. I'm really not in any rush and exploring different options is half the fun.

[Marc Heijligers]

Some news

Hi,

The Isis will be introduced this month in the Netherlands, and I'm going to listen to them soon. I'm very curious!

Regarding the Milestones, things are crazy at work, there is quite some maintenance in and around the house with the weather improving here, so things are going slowly.

About one week ago, Okke had the opportunity to listen to his first proposal, and after that we modified it to his second proposal (which is quite easy, not so many changes). This was quite a success w.r.t. the timbre of the speaker. I still would like to have more "warmth", but it is another step in the good direction. For details about the current filter, see the Second Okke Filter on my website

https://web.archive.org/web/20060507115744/http://www.hifivoice.com/

Furthermore, I spend a bit of time designing an 2-nd order acoustic Linkwitz Riley filter with the phases aligned over the whole operating area at the expense of the amplitude response. This resulted in the filter below with a response (fat line) that looked familiar to me (the thin line). Guess which response that is? The answer can be found somewhere on the filter proposals page. :W

More will come later. I want to build John's filter as soon as I can, but need to fight for some more free time. Stay tuned!

Marc

[JonMarsh]

Free time? What's that? My boss gives lip service to work/life balance, but doesn't really consider it for his reports- tries to motivate us instead with promises of promotions when we're asking for time off to take accrued vacation.

I think the C90/T6 is a pretty nice driver, and I'm looking forward to listening to them in the dipoles I'm working on now. I don't think I'm going to be popping for the Diamond tweeters- I'm still experiementing with waveguide loading for the C13-6. May also spring for a pair of C24-6 to test.

Keep us informed, Marc, and have fun experiementing!

~Jon

[ThomasW]

The Isis will be introduced this month in the Netherlands, and I'm going to listen to them soon. I'm very curious!

In 40 yrs in this hobby the Isis is far and away the finest sounding 'box' speaker I've ever heard. The disclaimer is that the total budget for the system I auditioned, was ~$250,000USD. That may have played a 'minor' role in the performance ....:wink:

[JonMarsh]

In 40 yrs in this hobby the Isis is far and away the finest sounding 'box' speaker I've ever heard. The disclaimer is that the total budget for the system I auditioned, was ~$250,000USD. That may have played a 'minor' role in the performance ....:wink:

Nah, don't believe that nonsense. All you need is a good Rotel HT receiver and a $60 Toshiba DVD player for CD's. :B

[Marc Heijligers]

Nah, don't believe that nonsense. All you need is a good Rotel HT receiver and a $60 Toshiba DVD player for CD's. :B

Right, but you just forgot the finishing touch: a Bose Acoustimass to "fill your room with beautiful music instead of bulky equipment". :T

Marc

[JonMarsh]

Marc, I know you well enough that I knew you would chime in with the finishing touch....

You know, I had some friends of an old girl friend that bought one of those Bose HT setups, and it is one of the worst sounding speakers I've ever heard, bar none- big hole in the upper bass/lower midrange, and incredible amonts of peakiness and distortion in the presence through treble region. I made my point by letting them play Joni Mitchell on their Bose, then on a set of the predecessor to the Modula MTs (SS 7" kevlar with Seas H400). But the wife wouldn't change the speakers because as she put it, "being small and out of the way is more important than how they sound".

The irony is that she herself was far from "small and out of the way", being a, shall we say, plus size woman. They did separate and divorce about a year later, but not over the speakers... plenty of other reasons.

[Marc Heijligers]

But the wife wouldn't change the speakers because as she put it, "being small and out of the way is more important than how they sound".

Here in the Netherlands, Bose had a commercial emphasizing the small size of the speakers. They advocated "only the size of a package of milk", a common measure in a country with cows in almost all the fields around.

My humble opinion was that these speakers sounded best inside the refrigerator with the door closed!

Marc

[Brian Bunge]

Here in the Netherlands, Bose had a commercial emphasizing the small size of the speakers. They advocated "only the size of a package of milk", a common measure in a country with cows in almost all the fields around.

My humble opinion was that these speakers sounded best inside the refrigerator with the door closed!

Marc

So what you're saying is that the speakers sound about the same as the countryside smells? Having grown up in a small town with lots of cow pastures on the outskirts of town I know that swell all too well!

[TacoD]

As a fellow dutchmen I've to say that there is not that much countryside left in the Netherlands. Also I have respect for the Bose company, they can sell products which doesn't sound that good and get a lot of money for these products .

[Marc Heijligers]

Some Thiel disaster!!

:jawdrop:

[TacoD]

Are those your own tweeters or the one's you've got from Clofis (Dutch importer of Thiel & Partner). I do not understand why you post this without the story.

Like I said before, what are you trying to tell us?

[Marc Heijligers]

Like I said before, what are you trying to tell us?

Do I need to explain that this is a broken ceramic driver, and that the effects look disastrous? A picture says more than a thousand words. I wanted to share the view of this broken unit with the DIY community.

Where exactly is your problem?

Marc

[TacoD]

This is not the first picture of a broken Thiel tweeter/woofer, aluminum oxide is a very brittle material. So I thought there was a special story attached to your pictures.

More than one person has broken its woofer trying to move the cone by hand (from the back) or during transport.

[Marc Heijligers]

This is not the first picture of a broken Thiel tweeter/woofer.

It wasn't my claim this was the first picture. Can you point me to other pictures?

More than one person has broken its woofer trying to move the cone by hand (from the back) or during transport.

Most of the times the Thiel midrange of woofers break because people don't fetch the unit properly, it slips in their hands, with their fingers ending op at the brittle cones with quite some force. Because of their heavy weight, you have to be carefull when lifting them up.

Marc

[Jed]

Marc,

Do you plan on trying Jon's crossover that he did for you pretty soon? I, for one, am very curious to see/know the results of his efforts.

Jed

[Marc Heijligers]

Do you plan on trying Jon's crossover that he did for you pretty soon? I, for one, am very curious to see/know the results of his efforts.

Hi Jed,

Unfortenately, due to my limited time, Jon's crossover is still in the planning. I have wooden plates now for positioning the components at a better distance. Next week I'll order the missing components. I hope to have it playing within a few weeks from now.

I'm very curious as well!

Marc

[Marc Heijligers]

Just a note to say I've tweaked a bit more on Okke's filter, and I'm very happy with the current result. It has a warm inviting sound, transparant and detailed. Schematic and response are below. Details about the road to this filter can be found on http://www.hifivoice.com/audio/miles...lectrical.html

I'm waiting for 2 more components for Jon's filter (15mH), and will start building that one at the end of this month!

Marc

[Marc Heijligers]

Another small filter update (after 1.5 week of continious rain, an idea in the back of the mind, and crocodile clamps...), and some observations on speaker placement:

http://www.hifivoice.com/audio/milestones/information/acoustics/acoustics.html

The last components required for Jon's filter have been shipped last Friday. Stay tuned!

Marc

[ThomasW]

I guess the obvious question is what about acoustic treatments at the first reflection points?

[Marc Heijligers]

I guess the obvious question is what about acoustic treatments at the first reflection points?

I guess the floor is the first reflection point in most settings, the side walls and/or the furniture the second, and the ceiling the third. I also guess it is about impossible to dampen low frequency effects (as I'm encountering with position 5), besides selecting another speaker position.

No clue yet which reflection is the most "disturbing" one. I'm having some fun with room acoustic software http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/reflection/rrc.htm, but it doesn't allow to model the shape of my living room. Is anybody aware of some freeware SW that can do this?

Jon's filter components have arrived!!!

Marc

[ThomasW]

I guess the floor is the first reflection point in most settings,

If you have larger mirror that is 'portable'; the most reliable test is having someone walk around the room holding it to the walls, while you sit in the listening position. Anywhere you can see a reflection of the speakers, is a first reflection point. In an ideal situation the mirror test should include the ceiling, but it's a bit difficult to leviatate the mirror up there....:wink:

Unfortunately the vast majority of the software is only for a standard 'box' shaped room with a flat ceiling.

[Marc Heijligers]

If you have larger mirror that is 'portable'; the most reliable test is having someone walk around the room holding it to the walls, while you sit in the listening position. Anywhere you can see a reflection of the speakers, is a first reflection point.

I suspect the back wall to be the most dominant. I'm thinking of putting an open cabinet filled with books.

In an ideal situation the mirror test should include the ceiling, but it's a bit difficult to leviatate the mirror up there....:wink:

I have a friend that can easily do that, can you imagine? :-)

Marc

[Marc Heijligers]

So when looking at the current Avalon designs and seeing that picture of Neil Patel on the Avalon website, people might consider what others contributed to the designs...... :wink:

There is an interview with Neil on the Dutch hifi.nl pages:

http://www.hifi.nl/casting/?pg=vid:7:0

Especially the last minute of the interview is, well let's say, original!!! :tomato:

Marc

[TacoD]

So somebody agrees with me... .

The interview is in english, no Dutch voice-over/ subtitles in the way.

[ThomasW]

Well Neil hasn't changed in the years since I last talked with him...

And his comments on the clones are stated by all mfgr's "no one can do what we do". lol, lol....

His be inventive and "do your own thing" is a bit much however, since obviously he hasn't done his own thing....:wink:

[ralphs99]

I've found that reflections from the rear wall are the most problematic. My listening position is very close to the rear wall and the strong reflection it produces causes havoc with imaging. The solution was to add a broadband absorber on the rear wall.
The absorber has good performance down to a few hundred Hertz and greatly helps with imaging. The only thing that took a bit of getting used to was seeing a wall behind me when I turn my head, but not hearing much of a reflection!

I've also had mixed experiences with side wall reflection treatments. Unless the absorber has a wide bandwidth, it can make the sound worse rather than better by upsetting the power response. Dispersion narrows at higher frequencies in any case for direct radiator speaker systems, and high frequency side wall absorbers like 1" foam rob even more energy from the top octaves reducing the feeling of 'space' whilst leaving the most troublesome midrange reflections largely unaffected.

I haven't tried it myself, but I've heard good reports from people trying diffusors rather than absorbers on side walls. Also on rear walls as long as they're not too close to the listening position.

Cheers, Ralph

[Marc Heijligers]

Yesterday evening we reached halfway Jon's filter now! We expect to have it running next week.

Marc

[TacoD]

What is the delay? Do you have all parts already?

[Marc Heijligers]

What is the delay? Do you have all parts already?

The delay is "available hours" for the hobby. All components are available.

Marc

[kvardas]

Accuton c2-11

There is a pair of new accuton c2-11 tweeters listed on ebay. I am not sure how close they match to the c2-12 unit.

[TacoD]

The c2-13 is the new one atleast that is the number listed at the website of the Dutch retailer (www.clofis.nl).

[Brandon B]

I am going to be posting a bunch of parts in the for sale forum in a couple of days ( a lot of parts and I don't have time to write the large post until Sunday), and included in there are seven C2-12's I bough about 4-1/2 years ago, all still new in the box. 3 matched pairs and a single.

BB

[Marc Heijligers]

The delay is "available hours" for the hobby. All components are available.
Marc

One choke and resistor to go (used somewhere else now). The audition will be somewhere next week, together with Luc and Korneel.

Marc


BTW, we started with some "cheaper" components for a first impression. MKP and air coils for the tweeter, some bipolairs for the mid and bass (will be bypassed with MKP), and for the 10mH and 15mH we bought chokes with a core (the best we could get). The reasons are price, and the fact that an initial filter always seems to need some mods. I consider it a waste of money to start with premium components immediately, ending up in a box somewhere. My experience in audio for many years is that a good topology sounds decent and convincing with "normal" components. If it is wrong, don't expect to get it right by component tweaking. One should be carefull though to conclude about the finesse of the speaker in this stage, as components do contribute a lot to that.

[Marc Heijligers]

arty:

Finally! After months of time, me and Korneel had sufficient time to construct and listen to Jon Marh's filter. So how does it sound?

Good points are the "speed", good pinpointing, well defined treble (no sibiliance, though brilliant), a bit more controlled bass (though a bit oinky), and the lack of resonances.

Bad points are the timbre (too much voiced in the middle frequencies, an overall thin sound lacking body), lack of spatial depth, and the idea of listening to a "two speaker system" (as if the tweeter is decoupled from the rest, and goes its own way).

Overall, the filter sounds "thin", and is not so "musical" or "involving". I suspect quite some modifications are required to get this filter more coherent, including efficiency and slope adjustments over the frequency range. This is not a surprise, as Jon developed the filter based on the curves only, not having had the opportunity to listen to the units, and the way the integrate.

So, what did we learn from this filter?

- I think it is a good idea to use steeper slopes for the tweeter (it sounds "cleaner" this way), but to prevent a high-Q around the 5kHz region (makes the tweeter sound "separate").

- I'm convinced that the midrange units needs some baffle step compensation. Listening to the woofer in isolation always reveals it sounds "thin", has no "drive" or "push", and gets a metallic edge when pushed too far into the low-mids. So, the midrange units will have some obligations in that range.

- The peak in the electrical response for the woofer should be removed, though this will not be easy considering the high impedance peak of the woofer, in combination with the previous requirement limiting the cross-over frequency to <300Hz.

To be continued...

Marc

[Jed]

arty:



Overall, the filter sounds "thin", and is not so "musical" or "involving". I suspect quite some modifications are required to get this filter more coherent, including efficiency and slope adjustments over the frequency range. This is not a surprise, as Jon developed the filter based on the curves only, not having had the opportunity to listen to the units, and the way the integrate.

So, what did we learn from this filter?


Marc

It sounds like you are giving up on Jon's filter so soon. All it probably needs is some more attenuation on the midrange- simple change of resistance. After spending all that money on huge inductors and the like, I'd at least give it more of a chance by tweaking key components. The parts aren't even broken in yet.

Jed

[Javachip]

Hi JonMarsh, I was just wondering what your experience has been so far with the Accuton C90-T6. I have an idea for a MTM open-baffle active 3-way design, similar to Linkwitz' Phoenix (precursor to the Orion). However, the tweeter I have in mind cannot be crossed lower than 5000 Hz with LR4. Do you think the C90-T6 could go that high? Thank you.

[Jed]

Hi JonMarsh, I was just wondering what your experience has been so far with the Accuton C90-T6. I have an idea for a MTM open-baffle active 3-way design, similar to Linkwitz' Phoenix (precursor to the Orion). However, the tweeter I have in mind cannot be crossed lower than 5000 Hz with LR4. Do you think the C90-T6 could go that high? Thank you.

I'm not Jon, but if you do a quick search you will find his comments to reveal a max 2-3K crossover point for the C90 with a preference being around 2K based on the distortion profile of this driver.

Also, if anyone wants some C88 drivers, check out my pawn shop post. Might be nice for someone considering an Avalon clone. There's no way I have time for that right now.

[Marc Heijligers]

It sounds like you are giving up on Jon's filter so soon. All it probably needs is some more attenuation on the midrange- simple change of resistance. After spending all that money on huge inductors and the like, I'd at least give it more of a chance by tweaking key components. The parts aren't even broken in yet.

I've tried to take the good things of all the proposals and my own ideas so far. As for Jon's filter, I've taken a fourth order filter between the midrange and tweeter. The resulting filter has a flat on-axis response, aligned phase response, regular off-axis repsonse, and the impedance roughly stay above about 4 Ohms (when also considering the impedance of the connectors, wires and junctions).

This has resulted in a new filter, described on http://www.hifivoice.com/audio/miles...lectrical.html in more detail.

I'm quite happy with the result so far. I expect some minor and personal tuning in the ratio between amount of bass and treble, and to finish the filter pretty soon.

Marc