Type of screen?

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  • chuckaroo
    Junior Member
    • Apr 2004
    • 26

    Type of screen?

    Hey guy's
    Long time no talk.
    Well I finally have my room extended and almost finished. It's now 11' X 15'. I took in all of the garage I could.
    My Z2 is on the way and I have received some screen samples from Carada.
    My room will be totally dark. Given thre fact that the Z2 is 800 lumens, what screen would you suggest? 1. Classic cinama white, 2. Brilliant white, or 3. High contrast grey?

    Sure do appreciate all the help I can get.

    Thanks lots.
    Chuckaroo
    Chuckster
  • Lex
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Apr 2001
    • 27461

    #2
    Chuck, I have the Z2 equivilent 2HD. I'd suggest going with either the classic white, which will have better whites than the grey screen, but at a cost that is livable in terms of less black "blacks".

    It's really a matter of personal choice. There's no perfect screen for LCD. I'm pretty happy with my choice of Classic white. I could probably be pretty happy with grey, but I don't think I would like less white whites very much.

    Lastly, I would not go with brillian white, because the Z2 is bright enough without it, even in low fan mode. So, you'd be loosing that much more blacks. A compromise I don't think you'd be to happy with.

    Lex
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

    Comment

    • aud19
      Twin Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2003
      • 16706

      #3
      Ditto :T

      But as Doug eluded to, it's all personal preference. Bam recently preferred and then purchased a bright white screen with his LCD based FP so....

      Jason
      Jason

      Comment

      • Bam!
        Super Senior Member
        • Jan 2004
        • 2458

        #4
        Originally posted by aud19
        Ditto :T

        But as Doug eluded to, it's all personal preference. Bam recently preferred and then purchased a bright white screen with his LCD based FP so....

        Jason
        Jason...it`s a DLP....high gain....to me high gain rules....just make sure you get the size right!

        Meaning you want to be 1.75x the distance of the screen for absolutely no SDA....none!!! Drives me nuts...

        Also what DvD did you choose ?



        Nice to see you back there ol buddy ol pal!
        Got a nice rack to show me ?

        Comment

        • Lex
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Apr 2001
          • 27461

          #5
          Not to bust you guy's little ones or nothing, but...

          I want to re-iterate, that Z2 is NOT a DLP projector, and high gain is NOT likely right for this projector. I'm going to bet 99% that it's not right for it. Really, it would make sense to compare only like projectors when looking at screens, because they all have their own specific attributes. Therefore what works for a DLP projector is not really that critical here. It's an LCD projector.

          Remember, I've seen blacks on my classic white screen here. I've compared it to a higher gain screen, or "Bright white" screen. The Z2 IMO, needs a low gain screen.

          Lex
          Doug
          "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

          Comment

          • Brandon B
            Super Senior Member
            • Jun 2001
            • 2193

            #6
            Originally posted by Lex
            high gain is NOT likely right for this projector. I'm going to bet 99% that it's not right for it. Really, it would make sense to compare only like projectors when looking at screens, because they all have their own specific attributes. Therefore what works for a DLP projector is not really that critical here. It's an LCD projector.
            I would question your use of the word right, in an area where personal preference plays so large a part.

            Lex is correct, going with a high gain white screen is going to elevate your black level very noticeably. You need to decide if the increased brightness makes up for that shortcoming.

            BB

            Comment

            • Lex
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Apr 2001
              • 27461

              #7
              Brandon, Why not right? Because if we want as realistic a picture as possible, we have to have some reasonable black level. If the goal is a realistic picture, then high gain is not right for the Z2 regardless of what's called personal preference.

              If the goal is punch it up bright light colors, totally disregarding blacks, then maybe high gain is ok. If I became overly against the high gain here, it is simply because DLP already has better blacks, that's one of the benefits of DLP. Thus, DLP has extra black to "give away" in return for brighter colors and whites. But if you give away the same amount of black on most all LCD projectors, you'll wind up with grey blacks. That's it really. Maybe necessary in a really large room with a lot of ambient light.

              Maybe I was to forceful in the way I said it. But I don't want someone running out and getting high gain with LCD just because someone said it was great, irrespective of the type of projector being used. Then them being really disappointed, and getting disheartened with FP because of it.

              Lex
              Doug
              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

              Comment

              • Bam!
                Super Senior Member
                • Jan 2004
                • 2458

                #8
                Doug!

                In all fareness I understand what you are saying....and it's true....however when the topic og high power comes up.....I had to mention that my projector is a DLP....that's why we spoke about high power....and as for me...me likes it....I didn' t at first but with a better a DvD player and some calibrating me likes....

                As for Z2...I just ordered one for a friend and I went with a matte white 1.0 gain....however since the lcd have so so blacks...I am now wonderinga about a silver one :roll:
                Got a nice rack to show me ?

                Comment

                • Brandon B
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jun 2001
                  • 2193

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Lex
                  Brandon, Why not right? Because if we want as realistic a picture as possible, we have to have some reasonable black level. If the goal is a realistic picture, then high gain is not right for the Z2 regardless of what's called personal preference.
                  Because "reasonable" black level is a subjective call. If you have an calibrated image with a given CR (and barring discussion of ambient light rejection, screen choice is not going to affect CR), it is going to be realistic or it is not, regardless of whether 0 IRE comes in at 0.01 ft lamberts or 0.04 ft lamberts. It can very definitely be just as easily argued that a brighter image with brighter whites is more realistic for bright scenes as it can that dark scenes require low black level.

                  Originally posted by Lex
                  If the goal is punch it up bright light colors, totally disregarding blacks, then maybe high gain is ok. If I became overly against the high gain here, it is simply because DLP already has better blacks, that's one of the benefits of DLP. Thus, DLP has extra black to "give away" in return for brighter colors and whites. But if you give away the same amount of black on most all LCD projectors, you'll wind up with grey blacks. That's it really. Maybe necessary in a really large room with a lot of ambient light.
                  Why are we "totally" disregarding blacks by going high gain? It is a compromise, just like buying an LCD (or a DLP for that matter) is a compromise on some points in the first place. Now I fully agree with you that it would be pretty counterproductive to buy a DLP with very good black level performance, and then negate that benefit by boosting it with a super high gain screen. But it seems as though black level is a top-of-the-list priority for you, and that is certainly not true of everyone, or there would not be so many D-ILA diehards. And as you point out, it allows you to watch with some level of ambient light. I'm not sure how size of the room comes into play, unless by larger room you mean larger screen as well.


                  Maybe I was to forceful in the way I said it. But I don't want someone running out and getting high gain with LCD just because someone said it was great, irrespective of the type of projector being used. Then them being really disappointed, and getting disheartened with FP because of it.

                  Lex
                  I agree with that. But LCD does not automatically preclude high gain, unless black level is one of the overriding concerns. The black level in a lot of commerical theaters is no better than a 1000 lumen LCD paired with a 8' wide High Power.

                  Basically, it seems like you bring up the (valid) concern of compromised blacks, but do not readily acknowledge the benefits of a brighter image. So I feel a little compelled to provide a counterpoint. If you notice, I have not stated that you are wrong, that a high gain screen is the correct choice, I just think it is a more subjective call than you make it.

                  BB

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15254

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Brandon B
                    I would question your use of the word right, in an area where personal preference plays so large a part.

                    Lex is correct, going with a high gain white screen is going to elevate your black level very noticeably. You need to decide if the increased brightness makes up for that shortcoming.

                    BB

                    There are so many considerations to take into account in getting this "right".

                    One is the setup and preparation of the room, and whether any ambient light is needed or will be allowed. Another is the color scheme used in the room- unless dark carpet, wall colors, and ceiling are employed, there will be a lot of scattered light, even from a "low" output projector like a CRT unit, much less a more modern digital projector.

                    So, let me posit some scnario's...

                    Scenario #1. Room is basically a normal living room/family room; typical modern "colors" are used- i.e., off white ceiling and walls, probably darker carpet, but not really dark. How to optimize perceptual blacks?

                    In a room like this, there will be a lot of light reflected from the walls, ceiling, and floor back on the screen, which will tend to compromise the black level. The eye will be subject to large swings in overall ambient lighting depending on scenes. In this situation, whether with digital or CRT projectors, I recommend a small amount of fixed D65 bias lighting behind the screen, and use of a retro-reflective screen such as the High Power, which rejects off axis light. The problem with this situation is that other factors besides the native projector contrast ratio degrade the performance signficantly, and it's important to combat those.

                    Scenario#2. Dark painted walls and ceiling, dark carpet. No reflected light to speak of to worry about. Using a screen with off axis rejection is not important. Optimize the screen performance, if you wish, for lowest subjective black levels with a gray a screen. Rear bias lighting will also help perceptual contrast. Note- gray screen doesn't really change the projector contrast level. It just makes everything darker - so you do get darker blacks, but the gray screens do affect perception of color balance. If you have the opportunity for color calibration, do it with the screen you're going to use.

                    Ideally, everyone should be able to preview the screen types they're considering, but that's not always possible. It's scary how much I've bought sight unseen in the last few years- at least I can say I am quite happy with the build quality and performance of my Carada Brilliant white screen. But it does NOT have the off axis rejection of a DA LITE High Power.

                    Regards,

                    Jon
                    the AudioWorx
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                    Comment

                    • chuckaroo
                      Junior Member
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 26

                      #11
                      Screen Dicision

                      Guess I created a little stir on screens.
                      I seem to be getting the feeling that I should be going with Classic cinama white with my second choice being High contrast grey, keeping in mind that my room will be totall darkn and my screen size 80" X 45".

                      What do ya think?

                      I'll wait for few more replys before making my dicision. I value you guy's opinion very much or I wouldn't be comming back for more.

                      Many, many thanks
                      Chuckster

                      Comment

                      • chuckaroo
                        Junior Member
                        • Apr 2004
                        • 26

                        #12
                        DVD Choice

                        Hey Bam
                        Thanks for you screen input.
                        You ask me the DVD choice. For Fathers Day my daughter gave me a Sony SLVP 500 progressive scan also with a VHS included.
                        Can I make this baby hum?

                        Thanks BAM
                        Chuckster

                        Comment

                        • Brandon B
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jun 2001
                          • 2193

                          #13
                          No, not really a stir. I basically agree with Lex's position, just semantic differences on what constitutes preference.

                          And of course, Jon comes in with probably the most rational and well thought out advice. As usual.

                          You want to see a stir, you should have seen the thread I had elsewhere arguing with a guy who is a color specialist for film in Hollywood who had decided that the High Power causes color shifts and inaccuracies (true for 3 gun CRT, but NOT for digital PJs). That was a stir.

                          By room totally dark, do you mean light control, paint and rug color, or both?

                          BB

                          Comment

                          • chuckaroo
                            Junior Member
                            • Apr 2004
                            • 26

                            #14
                            screen dicision

                            Thanks for the reply Brandon.
                            Not only will the room be dark but the walls will be ceiling tiles covered with natural burlap and glued to the walls between wooden colums. The carpet will be dark maroon and the ceiling, flat black. Also side curtains will be dark maroon velvet. Is it wise to have the back wall behind the screen flat black also? Thats the plan. As dark as possible. Also there are no windows in this room.

                            Thanks a lot BB.
                            Always glad to have the input.
                            Chuckster

                            Comment

                            • Lex
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Apr 2001
                              • 27461

                              #15
                              Chuck, I recently painted my wall behind my screen a dark grey, and it is performing very well. I don't necessarily think black is necessary, but it sure won't hurt, that's for sure!

                              Good post Jon, there is information there I wasn't aware of. The problem I have with brilliant white or high gain with LCD is the lesser black levels. But I will say, I was not able to see a full screen of both to make my decision. I only had a small sample was my choice.

                              Lex
                              Doug
                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                              Comment

                              • LEVESQUE
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 344

                                #16
                                I have a totally light controlled dedicated room, with dark ceiling and walls, and medium-grey carpet.

                                Absolute black on the ceiling, black GOM FR701 on around 80% of the room, the rest is medium grey. It's really what we can call a "tomb".

                                I use a Da-Lite Hi-Power with my D-ILA HX1.

                                And the blacks are perfect for me. And I did try a Marantz S3 and a Sharp 12K in the same room, but the wife didn't like those 2. She didn't hesitate one sec. She said: "the JVC is better".

                                She doesn't care about CR and specs. She has that naive and fresh judgment that I think we are lacking with our heads full of specs and stats after reading all those conflicting opinions on the net.

                                Black level is not everything. And after seeing 2 of the best single chip DLP, I can really say that. All those people with round eyes, open-mouth and wowing my set-up are also there to prove it. I'm so tired of those talks about "lesser black levels" when it's not true. But unlike alot of people, I did try it in my room to see if it was true.

                                The Hi-Power doesn't have that small cone everyone are talking about. My room is 14' wide, and I have to be on the side walls to start noticing a difference, or sitting on the floor.

                                I did try the Firehawk and Greyhawk, and the Hi-Power was so plainly better. Vivid and eye-poping colors.

                                Bam was all confused with conflicting opinions, but he did the best thing, he did try it.

                                And he bought the Hi-Power...
                                To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                                Comment

                                • George Bellefontaine
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Jan 2001
                                  • 7637

                                  #17
                                  I flirted with high gain in the early stages of my HT setup when I owned a very dim Sharpvision lcd projector ( 1990 vintage). But after I dedicated the room and painted screen area black and rest of walls a neutral gray, and bought a crt FP, I switched to a 1 gain Da-Lite matte white, and I have stuck with this through 2 other ( current) projectors, a Sony VPL400 lcd and an NEC HT1000 dlp. I really don't see a need for a high gain screen, nor do I see a need for a lower gain grey screen. But before I dedicated the room ( totally light controlled) the higher gain screen was a definite asset, so what Jon says is quite correct. It really depends on the environment, the type of projector being used, etc.
                                  My Homepage!

                                  Comment

                                  • Burke Strickland
                                    Moderator
                                    • Sep 2001
                                    • 3161

                                    #18
                                    Also, it is important to keep in mind that "high gain" and "Dalite High Power" are NOT synonyms. To say that the Dalite High Power is just another high gain screen would be like saying that Beluga Caviar is "just fish eggs". While the "Dalite High Power" retro reflective screen material does have a relatively high gain of 2.8, no other "high gain" screen material shares all of its outstanding properties, which, aside from washability (something you can't do with a typical "glass bead" screen, high gain or otherwise), include vibrant, rich colors, lack of hot spotting, and no "scattering" of light (since it is retro reflective, meaning the light comes right back at the angle that it hits the screen).

                                    People who have seen only "standard" high gain screens have a hard time believing that a screen material with a gain of 2.8 won't wash out blacks and scatter the projected light and (particularly with CRTs) cause hot spotting, because that is what an ordinary high gain screen will do. So it is probable that "seeing is believing" means you have to see a projected image on a complete screen of the material in question to be able to believe that what its advocates are saying is true.

                                    Burke

                                    What you DON'T say may be held against you...

                                    Comment

                                    • Bam!
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2004
                                      • 2458

                                      #19
                                      Burke!

                                      You just put your finger right on it buddy...

                                      Now I understand all the confusion about High Power.....I have the Da Lite High Power.....and my blacks are black on my little DLP projector with 800 * 600 res...

                                      So I guess that sums it up...

                                      Burke! :T
                                      Got a nice rack to show me ?

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15254

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Burke Strickland
                                        Also, it is important to keep in mind that "high gain" and "Dalite High Power" are NOT synonyms. To say that the Dalite High Power is just another high gain screen would be like saying that Beluga Caviar is "just fish eggs". While the "Dalite High Power" retro reflective screen material does have a relatively high gain of 2.8, no other "high gain" screen material shares all of its outstanding properties, which, aside from washability (something you can't do with a typical "glass bead" screen, high gain or otherwise), include vibrant, rich colors, lack of hot spotting, and no "scattering" of light (since it is retro reflective, meaning the light comes right back at the angle that it hits the screen).

                                        People who have seen only "standard" high gain screens have a hard time believing that a screen material with a gain of 2.8 won't wash out blacks and scatter the projected light and (particularly with CRTs) cause hot spotting, because that is what an ordinary high gain screen will do. So it is probable that "seeing is believing" means you have to see a projected image on a complete screen of the material in question to be able to believe that what its advocates are saying is true.

                                        Burke

                                        AMEN!, Brother! If I hadn't gone back to CRT, this is what I'd be using, too.

                                        Cinema Vision is a good choice from DA-LITE for CRT, but I ended up going with a Carada because of their available sizes and finish in a wall mount.

                                        ~Jon
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

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