article on 4K

[Lex]

a clip from article:

The smallest, cheapest 4K TVs from the likes of Westinghouse and Hisense cost $4,000 to $5,000. Westinghouse -- which isn't in the same quality league as a Sony or Samsung -- plans to sell its 110-inch 4K TV for a mind-boggling $300,000. Other manufactures wouldn't even touch the pricing question -- a sign that these things won't come cheap. A Toshiba representative told CNNMoney that its sets would be "aspirationally priced." Televisions in the 85-inch range are generally expected to go for around $30,000. So unless you've got a five-figure sum burning a hole in your pocket, you're probably not going to be taking home a 4K TV this year.

So 30K for an 85" set, whew! Sets tarting at 4K in off brand westinghouse.. I think 4K is going to have to become 1K if it wants to be adopted by the masses...

Rest of article:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/11/technology/innovation/4k-tvs-price/index.html?iid=HP_LN

[Hdale85]

Pretty close to the pricing of other standards when they were first adopted. Honestly I'm surprised there will be some in the 4-5k range. I think with that we will very likely see 4k in the sub 3k market for name brands in 2 years or so.

The funny thing is 4k projectors are so much cheaper? The Red projector is going to be 9,999 and there are others in the 15-20 range so its kind of interesting.

[Lex]

Well, I don't consider 10-20 grand "cheap" but yes, for the size of screen capable, I guess so. I guess a 60 inch probably gets down in the 10-15K range, don't you guess?

[Ovation]

Hi-def projectors started out cheaper than large flat panels, so it shouldn't be too surprising. I got a PJ in 2007 for 1100$ (a well-reviewed in its day Sony VPL-AW15) and I built a 64 inch screen (a rare DIY project for me that worked out well--lucked out on the material for the screen). In 2007, a flat panel 64 or so inch TV was about 6000-10000$ depending on brand and quality. Today, if I had to immediately replace my PJ, I'd likely go with a flat panel (though I really like having a PJ, even with a smallish screen for a PJ, as it makes films look more "film-like" to my subjective perspective). I could get a PJ for around the same price as what I paid in 2007 as well, but I'm aiming for higher quality (hence the delay as my target budget is closer to 4000$ than 1000$ and I have other obligations to tend to before replacing a piece of equipment that functions just fine at the moment--if the PJ fails in the immediate future, though, I'll get a flat panel and move it to the living room later).

I can see the difference in quality between DVD and BD on screens of 40 inches and higher without effort (though the difference increases screen size). I think the threshold will be a lot higher for notable differences between 1080p and 4K and the percentage of homes with space for such large screens is quite a bit lower than the current sweet spot of 40-60 inches for 1080p--IMHO.

4K will eventually become common, but I think it will take a lot longer than it did for 1080p.

[Hdale85]

Doug I'm not sure I've heard some really high prices. I know the 1080p oled from Samsung or sharp can't remember was like 30k.

[impala454]

They'll come down in price just like anything else. Besides there's not really any content yet anyways.

[Chris D]

I'm not bothering to upgrade any of my TV's for 3D or other technology in the last 5 years. When price comes down, I will definitely consider upgrading for 4k.

[Hdale85]

Yes a 4k projector is definitely in the works for me. And actually there is a good bit of 4k content that will be available very soon through the Red Ray player and service.

[Hdale85]

Sounds like Vizio is committed to bring mainstream pricing to their 4k TV's in q3 of this year. So maybe we'll see affordable 4K TV's sooner then I thought. Vizio has really come a long way on quality as well, I used to think they were just a cheap MFG, but when they released the XVT line they were getting some awesome marks. Be interesting to see what they do with 4k.

[aud19]

I'll be looking at an inexpensive ~60" plasma likely within the year. Then in 10'ish years I'll likely be looking at 4k OLED to replace it with. Unless you're loaded it just does not pay to be bleeding edge in displays IMO. MY 51" Hitachi CRT RPTV still produces a FANTASTIC picture (even if the thing is the size of a compact car :lol: ).

[Hdale85]

It doesn't pay to buy any electronic, it's not really the point. Everyone is willing to spend different amounts and that's ok.

[aud19]

I dunno...receivers, Bluray players etc you can get pretty cheap new and feature sets and connections can make it worthwhile. TV's are not the same in my experience.

[impala454]

They're definitely integrating more processing power and features into TVs now though.

[Hdale85]

Heck yea, the new Samsungs have a quad core CPU with a nice video processor that does hardware video acceleration.

I've been listening to budget receivers recently and they don't hold a candle to my Onkyo 805 which is only a mid grade receiver and its older and it kills these receivers.

[aud19]

They're definitely integrating more processing power and features into TVs now though.

Yes they are. A lot of which is duplicated in other equipment people already own :lol:

That's why I'm looking at non-3D, non-"smart" TV's

[impala454]

Hey some people like less devices. I used to have so much stuff hooked up it was insane. I went from this:

TV, Receiver, Amp, Oppo BD player, hd dvd player, xbox 360, wii, nintendo 64, snes, nes, atari, computer, cable box, vcr

to now just:
TV, Receiver, Amp, Oppo BD player

I definitely prefer the less cluttered look now. Though I'd love to spruce up the old game systems and get them all perfectly working. The SNES and NES used to work great but not so well now

[Chris D]

Did you still have the Atari 6400? My components have grown. Some of that, like the HD-DVD, is because those movies still work, and it's still my best DVD up-converter. Would I lose a lot if I ditched the HD-DVD player, its movies, and just used the PS3 as a DVD player? Not really. But it's only helping by keeping it around, so why not? So if you included everything in my equipment room for theater equipment, and disregarded things for the home computer network, house A/V distribution, etc, I'd have:

Projector/screen
Video processor
HT Pre/Pro
amplifiers
HDMI receiver used as HD audio decoder
BFD
HDMI switcher
PS3
"Universal" disc player used for SACD/DVD-A
HD-DVD player
Rack cooling fans
Power conditioner
Radio Tuner
Two satellite receiver/DVR's

X-Box 360 primarily used in living room
Nintendo Wii primarily used in living room

[Ovation]

I have:

Projector
22 inch LCD display
Cambridge Audio DVD99 (SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V region free with HDMI)
Toshiba HD-A2 (HD DVD)
Yamaha RX-A1000 HDMI equipped AVR
PS3 (SACD/BD)
Antimode 8033 autoEQ for subwoofer

Removed from HT:

S-VHS VCR
Cambridge Audio 540D V.1 (DVD-A/DVD-V region-free w/o HDMI)

Moved from HT to living room

Integra DTR 6.4 (non-HDMI AVR)
Marantz DV6400 (non-HDMI DVD-A/DVD-V/SACD)
32 inch Sony SD CRT

Future plans for HT:

New projector (1080p rather than 720p--4K not needed in that room size)
region-free Oppo BDP-103 or its successor (will then remove DVD99 and PS3 to other room with a future flat panel HDMI display)

I don't mind the clutter so much but I would like to eventually move to hi-def displays in other rooms beyond HT. When I do, I will have equipment to go with such displays ready to go.

Unless 4K becomes the standard for display devices (like 1080p is today), I don't foresee getting 4K as it would be wasted on any workable screen size in my house.

[Hdale85]

It seems like 4k will eventually become a standard, but only in 50" and up TV's and projectors at least that's my opinion. I'm not sure they could manufacture smaller 4k LCD's. That's a lot of pixels crammed into a small screen.

[aud19]

Hey some people like less devices.

Oh I agree, it's just that most devices these days come "smart"/web enabled. If your PS3 and BD player and receiver all have some level of streaming capabilities...does your TV need it too?

Hell the only sources I currently have connected in our theatre room are our cable box and a WDTV Live. That's it.

My point is that TV's will always be driven by the actual display technology, not gimmicks. Especially as those gimmicks are largely redundant in other devices most people already own....

[Hdale85]

I don't know, in the 50" Samsung I just got the SmartTV stuff works very well and much better then other devices I had in the kids room. There are some set top boxes I could get that would likely work just as good and possibly add a few more features, but I don't think it's needed with the Smart functions in the TV already.

[impala454]

Jason I don't agree that it's a gimmick. It's a legit selling point as a lot of people don't really have bluray players or PS3s or XBoxes. I'm one of maybe three in my entire extended family (of ~50 people) that has any of the above. They do, however, love to use netflix and the like. So I can see those services being built into TVs as being beneficial for sure. Especially when it's a negligible manufacturing cost (at least in comparison to the cost of a large TV).

Chris- it's the Atari 2600, the one with the faux wood, hehe

[Ovation]

Jason I don't agree that it's a gimmick. It's a legit selling point as a lot of people don't really have bluray players or PS3s or XBoxes. I'm one of maybe three in my entire extended family (of ~50 people) that has any of the above. They do, however, love to use netflix and the like. So I can see those services being built into TVs as being beneficial for sure. Especially when it's a negligible manufacturing cost (at least in comparison to the cost of a large TV).

Chris- it's the Atari 2600, the one with the faux wood, hehe

I think, eventually, displays will have all the functions/apps/features for netflix and the like while players will see them slowly disappear (a bit like how AVRs used to have MCH analogue inputs so people could add DVD players with 5.1 to AVRs that did not decode DD/DTS, but now such inputs are almost all gone). Indeed, players may well disappear over the next decade--or more likely become a niche like vinyl. For many, many people, a big TV, a soundbar (subwoofer optional--even soundbar optional) and Netflix/cable/sat/PVR is enough. Makes perfect sense to have the streaming apps on the TV.

As for the 2600 Atari, I have a replica (small scale, no cartridges, made by Atari) version that works with the original joystick or paddles and has 40 games built in. Accounting for inflation and average game cartridge price in the 70s/early 80s, I believe it would have cost nearly 4000$ in today's money to get the same thing--I paid 40$. My kids find it amusing.

[aud19]

I'd agree with you guys if it wasn't so fragmented... Some streaming sites work on some sets, not on others. Some will stream from your home network, some won't. Some will do certain file formats, some won't... Maybe it will get there in functionality and user friendliness but it's not there yet IMO and until it is...Gimmick.

[impala454]

But the boxes are pretty fragmented as well. There's not really any out there that do every single thing (except maybe your own home built PC). They all have different interfaces/setups/formats/etc.

[Hdale85]

Almost all of them do amazon, hulu, Netflix, and so on and those are the main services used out there.

[aud19]

But the boxes are pretty fragmented as well. There's not really any out there that do every single thing (except maybe your own home built PC). They all have different interfaces/setups/formats/etc.

That's why I got the WDTV

[Lex]

wdtv? not sure what that is.

If it takes special content, I see 4K as even less likely mainstream. Personally, I am not a believer in niche products. Blu Ray works because there's a good selection of movies. 1080p works because it's the current industry film standard. 3d, to me doesn't work because it's gimmicky, and requires special equipment and glasses for a very small movie subset. Someday, maybe it will be mainstream. But I enjoy 1080p with great contrast, and it feels right to me. if they offer a better image than 1080p that works with blu ray, then I'd consider it, if it works with everything, then I'd consider it. If it's specialty, probably not.

[Dmantis]

I'm very excited to see one go.

[Hdale85]

As much as we all don't like current 3D technology it's certainly selling pretty good. The thing about 4k content is that I don't think we'll really see it on physical medium, although it would fit just fine on blu-ray which would just require a newer player. But I think we're going to see it on downloadable content just like everything else is going. The Red Ray Player already does this and the 4k content is pretty similar in size to 1080p blu-ray content.

[Lex]

Well, color me out on downloaded content. I will stick with blu ray, and over the air or dish for now. It's not that I am against 3d as it exists now. I'm not. I just don't see the gain from spending more on the player, and TV, and media at this time. I am happy with Blu Ray and 1080p for my viewing style. Frankly, when I watched Avatar on my 1080p set, it looked about naturally 3d. That's what I like, a lot. So, we'll see where the future goes for 4K or whatever else. But in the meantime, I love 1080p and current sources for it.

[impala454]

That's why I got the WDTV

Which online video services does it support?

[aud19]

Which online video services does it support?

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330

But I was more interested in the file formats it supports. MKV and FLAC in particular.

[Hdale85]

Well I just wanted to bump a little update here as I know a lot of people have been asking about content and price drops and what not. You can now get a 60" or so 4k display for around 5g so prices are plummeting for sure. On top of that Netflix has just announced that starting Q1 of 2014 they will start 4k streaming, House Of Cards is one of the first that will stream at 4k and I imagine the other original series they have were filmed on similar hardware. Obviously it requires a decent connection but this just shows that content is definitely coming, and with how many movies are already being filmed in 4k it won't be long before those are likely offered on a streaming service.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57616079-93/netflix-reportedly-plans-4k-stream-of-house-of-cards/