Need Help With Equipment Selections!!

**Audiophiliac** · 29 April 2006, 19:33 Saturday

Ok lets start at the top. If you are going to spend ~$5k on a projector, definitely take a look at the Runco selections. The 420, 610 are good places to start. They are top notch projectors and Runco has top notch service. Speakercraft makes some really nice in-wall speakers. The AIM MT sound really good. B&W also makes some really great in-walls. I dont know why the one guy spec'd Jamo mixed with Speakercraft. Definitely try and have them all match.

The perf. screens can be troublesome with fixed pixel projectors. If the pattern lines up wrong, you lose resolution because the projector can place its image in the holes on the screen....it happens. As far as screen material, it depends on your room. If you have a really wide room with seats spread out across it, you will want a lower gain screen (white). If a majority of your seats are directly in front of the screen, a higher gain screen (grey) may be more beneficial. At 14' wide, with a 119" screen, you wont have a ton of room left on the sides of the screen, so I would say you would probably want to look at a matte white ~1.3-1.8 gain screen. Search the subject and you will find lots of good info. We sell Stewart screens and their website has lots of good information on it.

I am a huge fan of Universal Remotes MX850. But if you have a choice, opt for the MRF300 base station rather than the 250.

With the in-wall speakers, you should be fine with a nice receiver. Marantz SR8500 is nice. Any higher end Denons, and of course Rotel.

I would say a Runco/B&W in-wall/B&W sub/Rotel receiver/MX850 remote would be home theater bliss.

Good luck and post some pics when its done.

**draganm** · 30 April 2006, 16:26 Sunday

For video, you should try and see as many different kinds of projectors as you can. Certain people can't stand certian apsects of every type of technology. With DLP's and LCD's you will get any or all of the following; Pixels, Screen door, Dithering, macro blocking, and IMO worst of all elevated black levels. When the theatre is supposed to go full black it will be lit in a gray glow because the bulb is always on.A gray screen will help here but the only technology that can go full black is CRT. As one of only a few CRT guys on this board I recomend you try and see an 8" or 9" Electromagnetic focused unit locally at a private hobbyists home. The bulb machines can be seen almost anywhere but have a look here and see if there's someone close to you for CRT demo
http://www.curtpalme.com/ReferralList.htm
BTW, whichever tech. you like the best and for whatever reason, I would stay away from a perfed screen. For video source spending $700. on a DVD player is nuts IMO. these things are becoming obsolete faster than computer CPU's. 1080P players are already out and you can get an excellent DVD player capable of 720P now for Less than $300.. If you go with a bulb machine like DLP I believe they automatically convert everything to their native rez. so any good quality progressive scan player will do fine here.
For audio, I would not do in walls for the mains up front. As a matter of fact for a room as large as yours I would choose 4 di-poles for the surrounds and avoid in-walls anywhere in the theatre. If you do in-walls choose a well know company like Jamo. For floorstanders and wall mounted, I would stick with names that are recognized and can b re-sold or traded in down the road. You can get all the performance of B&W without the high cost by going with any number of other manufactuers high-end line like Mirage, Wharfdale, NHT, etc. Look for closeouts on last years models and spend that money somewhere else.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=WHARFE40RC1&product_name=Evolution%2040%20Home%20Theater%20Speaker%20Package

For amplifiaction, a Denon is very good unit delivering clean power and I would choose one over Yamaha. If you want to kick it up a notch, check out Outlaw audio stuff. One of my local friends runs their stuff and it's very nicely built and affordable, their new 980 looks very promising.
Don't forget other important factor like painting the ceiling a dark color, dark carpet, wall sconcesfor lighting, accosutic panels on side walls, bass traps for the corners, and other things that will make top end gear perform at it's best. :T

**Audiophiliac** · 30 April 2006, 17:50 Sunday

As far as the CRT vs. DLP vs. LCD arguement goes, good luck. The fact is that DLP technology is getting so good that the only place it comes close to falling short is black levels. And these are so good now, that it is becoming a moot point. Also, while a CRT projector may provide a "better" picture, maintenance and service can be a hassle or nightmare. "Pixels, Screen Door, Dithering....." wont be an issue on a quality fixed pixel device.

I would also like to know your beef with B&W. And in-walls. You can get very good home theater sound with in-wall speakers. Some people like the clean look of them as well. Agreed that you can get better performance from freestanding speakers, in-walls are a good option for someone who wants them.

I stand by my advice. Good luck.

**brac** · 30 April 2006, 20:51 Sunday

Hmmmmm....... I don't know about Runco, but I do believe the outlaw stuff is made by Sherwood Newcastle..... I know some are, not sure about the one mentioned.

**draganm** · 30 April 2006, 23:03 Sunday

A friend of mine actually chose a Runco HD2+ chipped DLP over a Sharp because the colors were better. I will concede that unlike the big corps. Runco does do actual calibration of their units to ISF standards just before they repaint them :T
I also have nothing against B&W, great speakers but a little too much money for what you get. I merely pointed out you can match the sound-quality for less. In walls are fine for most people, a lot of them like that clean look and aren't worried about that last 10% of perfect sound.
As far as CRT goes, the number of people sick and tired of plugging in new bulbs is holding steady. Most of the ones I talk to have gone through 3 or 4 DLP/LCD's.
It's certainly not for everybody, CRT Projection is about as far away as you can get from a plug-n-play device. Mine has been on my ceiling for 3 years though and I haven't had to repair anything. I merely suggested that Jason should try and see one so he knows what's out there, maybe it's for him and maybe not?

**George Bellefontaine** · 01 May 2006, 09:14 Monday

No arguement that crt has a great picture, but I have owned an NEC HT1000 DLP for 3 and 1/2 years and it is the closest thing I have seen to a crt, and I used to own a crt FP. The thing with crt is that unless you can afford to bring in a tech every now and then, you will have to learn how to do certain things yourself, the most important being, knowing how to converge the red, green and blue tubes because convergence drifts over time. I used to have to do mine about every 8 or 9 months. I know Draganm is big on crt and he is not alone. Another fellow HT Guider who loves crt is Jon. But I do believe it is wrong to shoot down other technologies like lcd, dlp, and today especially the LCOS technology, that is just about at the crt level of quality. We all see things differently, and for those who are not absolute sticklers on black levels, I am crtain they will be more than happy with their big screen picture shot from an lcd, dlp or what have you.

Jason there are many knowledgable people here on everything you mentioned. I am pretty well versed on projectors but usually advise newbies to go to Projector Central .com where you will find listings on nearly every available home theater projector. You need to know whether or not you will require a short, medium, or long throw projector which will be determined by the size of the room and the size of the screen you hope to use. Projector Central has a throw calculator , along with other specifications, for every projector they list. They also show Msrp pricing, but that is only as a guide as street prices are often lower.

**draganm** · 01 May 2006, 10:22 Monday

Originally posted by George Bellefontaine

But I do believe it is wrong to shoot down other technologies like lcd, dlp, and today especially the LCOS technology, that is just about at the crt level of quality. We all see things differently, and for those who are not absolute sticklers on black levels, I am crtain they will be more than happy with their big screen picture shot from an lcd, dlp or what have you.

I didn't shoot them down, just pointed out that they have their problems. If Jason is going to peview PJ's for the first time then he should look for those things and decide if it's something he can live with for 3 to 5 years. The Runco 710 DLP my co-worker bought threw a good pic, but not a $10K dollar pic which is what it cost. In addition to highly elevated Black levels ,At 1.3X seating distance the Pixels were very noticeable and made the pic grainy.
Sure 3 chip LCOS w/auto Iris has come very close to CRT, but who wants to screw in a $1000. bulb into a $10K projector every 2K hours? 8O
This review of the 710 is 2 years old but still relevant today AFA DLP is concerned.

Page not found – Guide To Home Theater

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/videoprojectors/1203runco/index.html

**Kevin P** · 01 May 2006, 13:58 Monday

Ok, I've cleaned up the bashing, and will re-open this thread now. Please keep it civil and help out the original poster with his questions.

From what I've heard about Runco, is they do use chassis from other manufacturers, but they put their own electronics (scalers, video processors, etc.) inside the box, so they don't just slap their name on a Sharp or NEC and sell it as their own. For example, one of Runco's CRTs was a NEC 9PG with a Runco scaler built in. You could get a real NEC PJ, but it wouldn't have the built-in scaler.

For those touting CRT, it does still provide the best picture, bar none. However, you have to deal with a much larger and heavier projector mounted on the ceiling, and the associated tweaking needed to keep CRT performing at its peak. Some of us like to do that kind of tweaking (like me), others just want to plug a DLP or LCD in, set the zoom and focus to their screen, and enjoy the movie.

As for Jason's original inquiry, if you're going to use in-walls, why bother with a perforated screen? You could mount the in-walls on either side and either above/below the screen for the center, and use a less expensive non-perfed screen.

Grey screens give you better blacks with digital PJs.

As for buying demo projectors, as long as you get a full warranty with the unit, and know how many hours are on the bulb (try and get them to give you an extra bulb, as they are expensive), you should be ok. Make sure they clean out any dust inside the PJ as well, to make it as close to new as possible before you take it home.

One of the best looking DLPs I've seen so far is the Studio Experience 50HD (note that I haven't seen a 1080p unit yet). If you're still shopping for in-wall speakers, check out Aperion Audio's new in-walls. We installed them in a house recently and they sound wonderful, especially for the money.

**aud19** · 01 May 2006, 14:02 Monday

First of all welcome to HTG Jason :T

Where to start.... :lol:

First of all, yes CRT's offer arquably the best PQ out there still. I'm a HUGE CRT fanboy but honestly if I was buying a FP I don't think I'd go with CRT at this point in time. LCD/DLP just do FP too well, too easily and for too little money to ignore anymore. Also, you mentioned you didn't think $4kUS was enough for a PJ. Unless money REALLY is no object I wouldn't spend more than $3k-$5k on a projector. Both the related technology and the prices for FP's are changing FAR too quickly to sink that kind of money in IMO. If money truely is no object, get the $10k Sony Ruby and be done with it

Now for the speakers, I agree, if you can get free standing speakers do it. You'll get better performance for less money. Especially if you're going to put them behind a perforated screen and not seeing them anyway. I mean why bother going through the added expense, trouble and lower performance of in-walls if you can't see the speakers behind the screen anyways, right?

As for brands, the in-walls you listed are all good and most of the "major" brands have quality in-walls you could investigate as well. As for quality brands my short list is usually B&W, Energy, Kef, Paradigm, PSB, Polk, Totem and Vienna Acoustics. Those are by no means the "only" brands though

As for the perforated screen, you do have to be careful with fixed pixel displays as mentioned above. I'm not 100% sure but I think Stewart has a perforated screen that's made of a random weave, rather than a fixed pattern of holes that solves this problem, you'll have to do some searching to confirm which manufacturer(s) offer that product. Grey/white screens will depend largely on your room and the PJ you choose so it's hard to make a recommendation there this early in the gear selection.

Of the gear suggested by the installers I'd likely go with the Marantz gear so far but agree that if you want a bigger edge in SQ, seperates from the likes of Outlaw, Rotel and Sherwood Newcastle will give it you and are worth the money IMO. I'll also agree that $700 is a bit much for a DVD player when you can get quality upscaling players for $200 and up and HD-players are available for $500.

Hope that helps and don't be afraid to ask more questions :T

**Z-Photo** · 01 May 2006, 14:24 Monday

I would also suggest that the proper research is done prior to any purchase.

If you have not seen the variety of different technology that is available then you will not be able to ascertain how much the different technology flaws affect you.

If you have a light controlled room - I would highly recommend that you compare the pros/cons of FP CRT. I for one have issue with headaches from SD. and prefer a fade to black (not grey).

edit: OT - My "other" avatar was too large for this forum.

**Bent** · 01 May 2006, 14:32 Monday

Z - no offense, but your avatar just isn't the same as the oneof yours I see on a different forum...
it seems your other avatar has a lot more, shall we say, "charisma".
LOL.

Then again, I certainly can't speak much of my own... :rofl:

**JasonW** · 01 May 2006, 15:52 Monday

Well, I can honestly say I am now VERY confused.... BUT I do want to thank everyone for their help and advice.

As for the perf screen, I was only considering it to be able to have a bigger screen. However, I am thinking it would be better to settle for a smaller screen in exchange for a better picture...

I have another guy coming out tonight. He seems to have the best advice and best selection of equipment in town so I will let you know what he recommends. I also forgot to metion in addition to the b&w speakers he also carries klipse (sp?). Anyway, thanks again for all the help and I will let you guys know his proposal so I can go forward with my decision...

-Jason

**draganm** · 01 May 2006, 16:37 Monday

Originally posted by JasonW

Well, I can honestly say I am now VERY confused....
-Jason

that just means that your getting closer the answer you seek Grasshopper :B Klipsch is a high quality piece but the horn tweeters can be harsh and fatiguing at times depending on how sensitive your hearing is. If you like ot play REALY loud then they will do that very well.

**David Meek** · 01 May 2006, 23:06 Monday

While it's true that Klipsch's can be fatiguing if mated with a cool/forward sounding amp, if they are combined with the right amp then they can sound quite nice. Auditioning is the key here. Yes, I know some think that's a cop-out answer but it isn't. To one person's ears a specific set-up may not work, but to another's it may be sonic nirvana.

**draganm** · 02 May 2006, 10:19 Tuesday

Originally posted by David Meek

While it's true that Klipsch's can be fatiguing if mated with a cool/forward sounding amp, if they are combined with the right amp then they can sound quite nice. Auditioning is the key here. Yes, I know some think that's a cop-out answer but it isn't. To one person's ears a specific set-up may not work, but to another's it may be sonic nirvana.

I think that's a good answer, The klipsch are very efficient speakers and if I'm not mistaken the horn tweeter is a big part of that.To be honest I have only heard the Klipsch mated to Mid-fi solid-sate gear and that could very well be big part of their bright sound. I bet a nice tube-amp paired with Klipsch spoeakers would really smooth out the top and also bring out more of the soothing mid-range that I tend to look for in a speaker.

**George Bellefontaine** · 02 May 2006, 10:47 Tuesday

I don't own Klipsch, but heard them in an HT setting at a friend's house once and was quite impressed.

**aud19** · 02 May 2006, 11:08 Tuesday

The biggest detriment I personally find with Klipsch speakers (besides their tendency to be a bit fatiguing particularly with cheap and/or mismatched gear) is their directionality. They have a very small sweet spot which doesn't lend itself well to more than a couple people and doesn't help them in surround speaker locations either IMO.

With the right gear, in a 2-ch rig for 1 or 2 people listening though they can be quite revealing and amazing.

**Chris D** · 02 May 2006, 13:05 Tuesday

Heya, Jason. FWIW, I have an all-Klipsch 7.1 theater setup, and a 119" perforated screen. Speakers mated to Parasound Halo processor and amplifiers. Works and sounds great.

**draganm** · 02 May 2006, 13:15 Tuesday

Originally posted by Chris Dotur

I have an all-Klipsch 7.1 theater setup, and a 119" perforated screen. Speakers mated to Parasound Halo processor and amplifiers. Works and sounds great.

well Oh-Kay, i'm glad we cleared that up

**Dean McManis** · 02 May 2006, 13:32 Tuesday

I have the Studio Experience 50HD (mention above) and it is similar to the Sharpvision unit in specs, and does have a great picture. I also have a perforated Grayhawk screen, and they make a good combination.

One thing about some HT stores is that they tend to carry projectors that have a higher profit margin, and often you can find the same unit elsewhere for far cheaper. Of course service/support can be better at a local HT store, but that depends on the store.

Research is you best friend in shopping for a projector, and if you can try to see as many different models as possible to determine which technologies and models appeal to you the most.

**JasonW** · 04 May 2006, 15:41 Thursday

First of all, I want to say thanks very much for everyone's posts. So, I just got in the quote from the 3rd guy that seems to know a little more about what he's talking about compared to the other people here locally. However, his quote was also way higher. I wanted to get your thoughts on what he recommended and at the following price:

1 Runco VX1000D Projector with VIVIX Scaler - 10,000
(he says this is a new, but discontinued model, therefore, the manufacturer has discounted it by 6k-- I found a demo one online for 6k but it is a Runco VX 1000ci with Vivix pfp video processor with 320 hrs on it -- BUT I am not sure which one would be better?? Or what the difference is between them)
1 Runco Bracket - 265
1 Stewart Firescreen 110" Deluxe Screenwall - 2,500 (this sounds really high to me?)
1 Integra 7.1 Channel Dolby Digital / DTS Receiver - 970 (know anything about the quality, etc of this?)
3 B&W In Wall LCR Speaker - 480 ea
4 B&W Semi Flush Mount DiPolar Surround Speaker - 325 ea
2 B&W 12" Powered Subwoofer - 650 ea
1 Richard Gray Powerlink In wall Power Extension Kit - 180
1 Richard Gray Dual Surge Supression / Power Conditioner - 1200
1 HTM Mini LCD Custom Programmable RF Remote - 500
1 Acoustic Sound Absorbtion Panels - 3400
1 Plateau 4 Shelf Audio Rack - 230

Please let me know if there is something you recommend instead.... or if you think these items will work well together...

Thanks!
Jason

**aud19** · 04 May 2006, 16:17 Thursday

Most of it looks pretty good but I'd likely spend a little less on the projector and more on a pre/pro and amp for better audio. As I mentioned earlier I wouldn't spend more than $3k-$5k +/- on a projector because a newer and better version of your $5k projector will be out next year and it will only cost $3500.

If you went with something like the Anthem D2 (which at over $6K IS quite expensive) but has a built in, very high performing video scaler and is a top notch audio processor as well including HDMI 1.1 support for the HD-DD/DTS formats. Add a good amp and you're set for years. Regardless, even a $1k-$2k (or up) pre/pro and similar price level amp would be better than a $1k receiver and longer lasting/easier to upgrade.

(D2 Review)

B&W makes great speakers and good (albiet over priced) subs but IMO I'd get a sub from SVS (high performing and great value but more work to set up properly) or a Velodyne Digital Drive (high performing and easy to set up properly but more expensive)

Richard Gray is THE gear to get for power, It's not cheap but VERY good. For a less expensive alternative that retains a good chunk of that quality and protection, check out the APC home theatre units.

I'm glad to see that installer's also including some room treatment as well :T It's very important but often overlooked.

**Audiophiliac** · 04 May 2006, 19:51 Thursday

I think it sounds good. I am not a huge fan of Integra stuff, but that is an easy upgrade in the future. Easier than a projector swap. $10k for a VX1000 is a good deal especially since I assume it includes the DHD outboard scaler. This makes it easy to add upgrades in the future via firmware or harware upgrades to the box, and not the actual projector. Maybe do a different power conditioner and upgrade later.

Some people like to do it all once and all right the first time, so go for it. Others like to buy stuff and upgrade it over time until they have what they desire. Either way, you will be happy.

I installed a VX1000 on a 123" screen and it is phenomenal! It should do better on the smaller screen too.

I dont care what anyone else says, you cant beat the performance of a Runco.

And the B&W in-walls will sound great too. You might inquire about some back boxes for at least the fronts. Makes it that much better. Other than that, I think you should go for it. You can also get away with only a single sub for now and add a second later.

Pics when its done.

**draganm** · 05 May 2006, 10:37 Friday

it's certainly possible to build a theatre that will outperform that for half of that amount, maybe $10K total. However if your not the type of person who has the time to do that or tackle the steep learning curve then the stuff he is recomending is fine. $10K for an already obsolete Projector though? ouch

I agree with Aud, scale back the PJ and buy one that you can stick in a garage sale in 2 years. Spend that money on a seperate processor and high quality 7 channel amp

**aud19** · 05 May 2006, 10:52 Friday

Yeah I'm not saying Runco doesn't make great PJ's, they do. And I'm not saying that's not a good "sale" price for that model, $6K off anything is nice... but IMO that's just too much money to spend on a PJ particularly given the market conditions I noted earlier and that you can get a MUCH less expensive model that will give you 90-95% of the PQ. I just think that money could be put to better use elsewhere.

Need Help With Equipment Selections!!

Need Help With Equipment Selections!!

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