Question regarding black levels display on projectors

[Booker]

Finally i saw 2 projector running... for 30 min..

I saw 1 DLP and 1 LCD to compare the "weakness" and "strengh".

Bascially the gay didn`t know **** about it..but i let the pictures talk for themself...

I was really pleased to not see Rainbows on DLP at all, at least for 30 min, wich was what i stayed there... nor VB on the LCD.... i saw the SDE, but that is really not a concern, it is really a matter of being a little back and to be honest i didn`t find them anoying like most people have.

BUT 1 thing does really concern me on both projectors i saw... DLP and LCD, the black levels... i`m going t post a screens to show you how i did look them and how they should look, i already know the DLP has better Black levels than the LCD, but to be honest i didn`t like them on either of the two.

I`m almost certain that the Projectors wasn`t calibrated at all since both were on 50 on all categories but still, we tried to lower the brightess all the way down on the DLP and it still shows Gray instead of "light black" (i know it won`t be black).

When we turned Brightess all the way down on the DLP the Picture does loose Brightenss but the Screen still looked Gray... then i told the guy that it still look gray to me..and he said it was true, but that is coz the DVD player was on Bright Signal or something, i do know i have a SOny dvd player who has this setting, Black Level, bright or Dark...but i also know if i set on Bright, when i turn down the brightness i can make the black darker, this wasn`t the case on the projector today.

This really turned me down since movies looks like "gray" instead o black this really affect the deepness of the picture and overall quality.

I`m starting to presume this is a fact on all projectors, no matter wich tech they use they will be gray.

I`m going to post a few screens to show on screenshots what i`m talking about since explaining could be missleading.

Also when the guy took off the dvd, the screen with the DVD backgrond still produce the gray instead of "black" so the dvd weren`t the problem.

Again i`m not expecting real black.... but also i don`t want them to be gray

This is how projectors are or i was looking a bad calibrated, setup projector?

the 2 projectors i saw was X2 (DLP) and Infoucs 5000 (LCD)

DVD backfround

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-No_dvd_Playing.jpg

How the movie should look:

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/booker-example_good.jpg

How does look on projectors:

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-example_bad.jpg

Note:this are photoshop tweaked screenshot to give u an idea of what im talking about.

[JonMarsh]

Unfortunately your links don't work- can't use a manual ellipsis, that may be the problem.


There is no such thing as a perfect projector, unfortunately, any more than a perfect wife, for example. The trick is to find one that is perfect for you... which means, addresses the issues that are perceptually most important for you, at a price range and complexity of setup/maintenance that you can live with.


For evaluating any projector, there's no substitute for using a copy of AVIA or Video Essentials and using the pluge bars for black and white to set the bright ness and contrast. This is a fundamental setup requirement so that you can be sure you're seeing the right dynamic range. Normally, having brightness and contrast around "50" SHOULD be close to the correct settings.

The sales guy was BS'ing you about the DVD player "Bright Setting" nonsense, IMO.

Besides the artifacts that you mention in your post, another thing important to check out in DLP projectors is temporal dithering. This is displayed sometimes (well, frequently, IME) in low light scenes with fast motion for single chip DLP projectors. It comes about because the processor and chip have to run very low duty cycles on the DLP light valve PWM to get the lower light level (dark grays), and if there's fast motion at low light level, it can't keep up, and things get kind of mottled and digital looking.

A good disk to test for this is any moderately active low light scene; one that comes to mind is the opening of the Pilot epiode of "Firefly" series DVD. Some of the fighting sequences in "The Last Samurai" also highlight these issues.

Different DLP and LCD projectors have varying contrast ratio's and black level, and remember that displaying on a small screen will emphasize the effective black level, as there's more light on a small area. The best demos, of course, are on screens of the size you're considering.

What you're seeing and feeling about this is why I don't recomend any purchases in this area without auditioning a sample of the prospective gear. Otherwise, buyer's remorse is a real liklihood.

Re DLP, the 1280X720 HD2 models will have better contrast and color redenition than the budget Infocus model you were viewing. For LCD's, check out the Sony HS51. More money, of course, but that's part of what you get for paying more- better performance.

~Jon

[aud19]

Also look at the Yamaha LPX-510

John's right though. There is no perfect technology.

How much ambient light was in the demo room by the way? What was the gain of the screen being used? If it was a bright white 1.5 gain screen or something the black levels on any digital projector would look abismal! You really do need to take a copy of AVIA or DVE with you as well unless your VERY practiced at setting contrast/brightness etc.

[Booker]

Thanks for the replys!
Sorry, now they do work.... compare the "good" with "bad" and you will see what i`m talking about.
Maybe this is how projectors display and i can`t do nothing to lower them.

I keep reading about projectors, reviews, comments, post, etc for 2 month already, trying to decide wich projecto to buy. I`m aware of the "weakness" of the projectors, lcd with worst black levels than dlp, sde, rainbow from DLP, etc...and honeslty i don`t mind almost any of those, with the exception of the Black levels, i mean i know black won`t be as good as CRT but those were gray..really killed the depht of the picutre...
What worry me most was the DLP aslo was really bad con Black level... both were the same, both were bad, imo.

I loved the LCD and i want that tech, i can deal with the rest of the issues, but Black level is a concern right now and i`m afraid all projectos does play like this.

I just hope the problem was the one i posted above, the room wasn`t totally dark, it has 1 door open, 2 lights near the screen, low ambien light. At the same time it can be tweaked with some filters, i read the CCR20 whi really help the picture..and maybe some gray screen ..but still want to know this beforehand so i don`t make myself false expectatations.

but what scare me the most is we try turning brightess all the way down and the gray was still there... the pic does loose brightness but i saw the letterbox and they were gray, not even dark gray... maybe closing the lens or something could help?...some ccr20 fitler ?

[aud19]

With any projector you will only get as dark of blacks as it is dark in the room. In other words, if there's ANY ambient light it will raise the black level higher and higher the more ambient light there is. Add to that a possibly over white screen made to reflect more light than a negative or even 1.0 gain screen and you'll have poor black levels.

[Dean McManis]

One thing also is that I've seen a BIG difference in the output of different DVD players.
What he might have been trying to talk about is the DVD's "blacker than black" or "Enhanced black" setting. The black level is automatically set with a DVI/HDMI connection, but with S-Video, you sometimes need to set blacker than black to avoid seeing gray blacks.

Many commercial electronics stores just plug the DVD into the display and that's that.
And some have a distributed feed that makes things even worse.

And asmentioned, stray room light, screen gain, and viewing material/medium all make a difference in percieved picture quality. If it's done right, you should see a picture that is fairly close to the quality of a HD tube TV, with blacks that are the same or better than a movie theater.

[Booker]

thanks, yeah i`m really certain the problem was the little room it has on the room, i felt it look like when yoy play a movie with ambien light...just all wash up, no punch, bad black levels, etc...

I`m 80% certain this was the problem.

I guess with correct ambient light, and if is need it a filter, since i`m getting the sanyo Z2, the CCR20 will be enough....in fact i`m not sure if i`ll need it...ill try without any filter first and if i felt unpleased, i`ll get a filter as well.

thanks for the feedback!

[George Bellefontaine]

Man that last shot really looked washed out. I own the NEC Ht1000 dlp and the Yamaha LPX510 lcd and I have never seen anything like the picture shown except when the brightness is set too high.
The black levels on both my projectors is quite satisfactory for me ( the dlp is a bit better) and I was a crt front projector guy. But what satisfies me may not satisfy someone else.

Jon is correct. No such thing as the perfect projector, just the one that is right for you.